Tech: question for guitar players....

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 01:49 PM

Thanks for the thread Mary :) even us old cootes who played so long we can't recall learning - perhaps thats why we don't know what we are on about - enjoy reading other folks' take on everything from picks to strings. I sometimes jump on stuff I think ain't right, like dissin Martin strings.

In fact these are only 6 bucks a set and very good value, here they are made in Mexico and I love the sound they make, esp fingerstyle.

Bout the Barre Chords, once in my foolish youth trying to make it in a
'Showband' if anyone here is that old ..lol, I had to learn a sack of them Chords; I can tell you my brain and paw was sore for months.
They take a while to get used to but are not real hard like some fingerstyle licks can be.

Afterwards I decided not to take the road and the traveling musician life. Glad I did that, looking at some of them old err cusses out there trying to look like teenagers ....ha ha ha

How bout those guys, Jagger, Mc Cartney - he married a kid age 20 something, old enough to be her grandad ... what a bunch of kettleheads!

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,Mary V.
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 11:48 PM

Thanks for noticing I appreciate that....
you noticed.....
I don't play folk music.
But I love all styles of music...
It sure did make for a fun discussion..
I really loved all the input.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:51 PM

Murray, I just don't know where you get that. Since when does "open strings" equal "folk" and vice versa? I can't see any rationale for that, especially considering the number of guitar-playing source singers (those who grew up with the stuff and didn't know they were playing "folk music" until someone told them) who have no qualms about using barre chords and use them freely.

If you don't want to use barre chords, okay, but why make a religion of it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:01 PM

Barre chords are wonderful, learn them by all means, as long as you realise that what you are playing is NOT folk guitar.

The whole rationale of folk guitar, unlike jazz guitar, or ragtime guitar, is the utilization of open strings in the chords.

However, I have just realized that in her original question, Mary made no mention of "Folk " guitar, so please regard all my input on this thread as redundant.

Murray

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 08:09 PM

Lads And Lasses Dont argue about it. Its all dependant on what suits
YOU personally,so some of us use a lot of Barred chords and some of
have found ways round the use of Barred chords. Some of us have Jumbos
and love em, some of us play parlour guitars and love THEM.Music is such a personal thing, If we all liked the same things My God we'd all be bored out of our skulls in no time.Personally I learned (self taught- no one to blame) the Un barred F then I had a minor contretemps with a motorcycle parking experiment (65 mph NOT good parking speed) and had to learn all over again . And deliberatley learnt to play Bar Chords. Means I can busk along in silly keys and
dont have to franticly look for a capo if the key shifts.Also means I have more idea of chord runs IN silly keys because I play them more often.
Dont Fight about music. Just play it and enjoy it !!

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:14 PM

"I've tried the Martin coated strings, didn't care for them as much- I got a lot of finger squeaks."

Try fingerease, and lift off when not sliding.

ummm I had a set of high priced Martins on my new Guitar but restrung with the Martin Marquis, a lower end type of string. Funny thing about strings, you'd think that every pack is the same, but it ain't.

I play both fingerpicking style and flatpick. These strings are very nice for fingerstyle, but I am using the plastic thumbpick to get that crunchy sound out of my box, a DM jumbo.

Flatpicking unless you are really hot, a rare thing these days, is for the crows and those who don't have a life besides playing, I can't be bothered, besides if I really wanted to get down on a reel or jig I can do it on the fiddal ...

My Guitaring is 100% fun, or I ain't playing, no matter how many times I get asked by folks, even IF they are hot on the fuddle, still can't be bothered... all that egoing and staring..gives me the creepies...

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: 53
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM

just have it set up right and you should not have any trouble with any chords

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:02 PM

Steve, re: elixirs-

I fingerpick almost exclusively, so I haven't had any problems with the coating peeling or whatever. Actually, most of the people I know don't care for the elixirs as much, but they've also been playing for a gazillion years and were brought up on the feel of the naked string! Although I'm 41, I've only been playing a couple years and love the feel. I change them about once every 2-3 months- mostly when they start looking really grungy. (I'm not good about wiping them down after playing.) I've tried the Martin coated strings, didn't care for them as much- I got a lot of finger squeaks.

I would guess I average an hour a day playing, so to me they last longer than uncoated strings, but even if they didn't I'd probably still use them because I like the feel and comfort level. Perhaps they're just not compatible with the acidity in your skin or something? I'd try a different brand and see if you have the same problem.

My other thought would be dropping them a line and letting them know the problem you had- if nothing else, you may get a free set of strings out of it- they may have been genuinely defective!

happy picking

Jim

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: HuwG
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 05:19 AM

One song I learned was Dominic Behan's The Foggy Dew. (i.e. the one about the Easter Rising in 1916). You may disagree with its sentiments, but it is ideal for practicing barre chords. If you play it in C minor, you can do it without using any open chords at all (hint: Cm7 does double duty as an odd-sounding but acceptable E major chord).

I normally play and sing it in Bm, which means that it uses open D and A chords. I find it more difficult to switch from barre to open chords and back again, than to switch between barreed A-, E- and Em shapes.

----

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Blues=Life
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:04 PM

Don, I've got to agree with you that folks should check out parlor guitars. When I was shopping for a good acoustic, I wanted a big, LOUD, rythym kinda guitar. I liked the Martin Jumbo, The Guild Jumbo, and the Gibson SJ200 Super Jumbo. Since I'm 6'4", and 230 pounds, I have yet to find a guitar that's too big. So what did I buy? A Tacoma PR40 rosewood parlor guitar that was simply nuclear! Loud, balanced, and in the words of a friend of mine, "it's an intonation Monster!" If you haven't tried the Tacoma Parlor, give it a ride. I think it's the best guitar they build, and they build a lot of fine guitars.

Blues

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,Mary V.
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 02:41 PM

Fortunato..Don Firth .....to all of you !!!!
Thanks again .....this has been really fun
getting everyones input.

The different views on Bar chords are so interesting.
I have taken lessons from a really good teacher
mother maybelle style ...
and I love playing that way.
Now I am having fun with learning the bar chords.
Thanks so much...
and I will let you know when I make my decision
on a guitar.
This mudcat discussion forum
is so helpful.

Mary V.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 02:35 PM

On the matter of guitar size:— around the turn of the century (which is to say, the last century, about a hundred years ago) a very popular instrument was the parlor guitar, sometimes referred to in hundred-year-old catalogs as a "ladies model." But not exclusively for ladies, because people of both genders played them. These guitars are not really that small. It's that most guitars made since then are really big. The guitar that Joan Baez played for many years (maybe still, I'm not sure) was a small-bodied, 12-fret Martin 0-45, made in 1929. This actually falls into the "parlor guitar" category, and if you've ever heard that guitar live, you have an idea of just how good it really is. It has certainly served her well.

I play a classic guitar, but the nicest sounding steel-string guitar I have ever heard was one that my Significant Other back in the Fifties was given by her grandmother, who no longer played. The guitar was a "New Model" made by George Washburn in 1898. In fact, I can show you the exact same model HERE. The only difference is that Claire's guitar didn't have a pick-guard. If you read through the text in this site, take particular note of the following comment:

"This configuration is said to be the optimum string to body length to produce a ringing tone and listening to this guitar would tend to verify that proposition in my mind. I have also read that this size and shape body produces the "perfect guitar sound" by no less an authority then Eric Schoenberg. The tone is rich and balanced with a lot of bass and mid-range, unsurpassed treble and is (amazingly!) the loudest acoustic guitar I own. This instrument is a finger-picker's dream."

Claire's Washburn was the first guitar I ever had my hands on, and her enthusiasm in teaching herself to play it sparked my initial interest in learning to play, which eventually changed the course of my life. Since then, I have never heard a steel-string guitar with as sweet a sound, or one that was as loud, including D-Models. I know that's heresy in some circles, but I've always felt that D-Model guitars are inordinately bass-heavy and thin in the trebles. Good if you're in a bluegrass group and are responsible for laying down an strong bass-line, but otherwise, not very versatile. Which is to say, size isn't everything!

Several companies are now making parlor guitars or guitars of a similar size (incidentally, as the above website mentions, the current Washburn guitars are not made by the same company as the ones made by George Washburn in the late 1800s). Do a google search on "parlor guitar" and you'll come up with a lot of information. Check 'em out. They are a nice size, easy to hold, and the good ones sound really good!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 01:28 PM

If you can't do barré chirds it limits what you can do on a guitar. If you can't reach your thumb over and hold down the bass E sring, that limits what you can do too (mainly because then you aren't able to fret that string while allowing other strings to be played open).

So it seems to me that the best thing is to learn both ways, and have a guitar that allows you do it both ways.

I'm reminded of the dispute between the Bigenders and the Littlenders in Lilliput about the right way to open an egg.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Fortunato
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 12:49 PM

MaryV.


In case you're still around. The Barre chord is an absolutely essential formation to learn in order to become a competent guitar player. Period. Rick Fielding hasn't weighed in here, so I will.

I use the barred F at the first fret, F#, G, Ab, and so on up to the twelth fret constantly

I use barred 9th, 13th, 6/9 the length of the neck in several guitar pieces. I use these chords in the following examples of 'folk' music:

1)Old time country music, for example "Keep on The Sunny Side" (I barre the 'F' inorder to get the base note of the F chord when playing in C. Whether finger picking or flat picking I walk that base note back to the C chord or up the G chord
2)Fingerstle or Country Blues. When playing Merle Travis' version of "Cannonball Rag", I use the barred G at the third fret and the barred A at the 5th fret as well as the 9th and 13th chords in the circle of 5ths.

Now, Mary, these examples may not be terribly meaningful now. But as you progress as a guitarist you may find use for these forms.

Additionally the barre chords are the basis for the scales you must practice to become a competent guitarist in any genre.

My advice is: As said above, find a good teacher. If possible take a competent guitar player/repair person with you to purchase a good instrument. Find a repair person to 'set up' your guitar. Learn your barre chords, Mary, and practice your scales EVERY DAY until you can do them with your eyes closed. You have gotten some good advice on guitars up above. My own feeling is that if you can afford it, a new Taylor entry level guitar is a good start for beginning students because of their very approachable necks. They are, in my experience consistently playable.

Good Luck, chance.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 11:59 AM

Jim, I have tried Elixir strings. The ones I had the coating over where I pick kept peeling off. Is that normal? How often do you change yours? Mine frayed/peeled after about two weeks but that is with practising for between and hour and three everyday. Any advice would be most gratefully recieved.
Thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 11:08 AM

Dexter, don't forget, what's important is a guitar we feel comfortable with. If yours has higher-than-usual action and it works for you, that's all that matters. I get tired of guitar snobbery sometimes, y'know?

And yeah, whoever mentioned the smaller body sizes, that can help a lot in the comfort level. I adore the -14 size taylor uses; it's comfortable to me when sitting or standing; being slight of stature (vertically, anyway) dreadnoughts usually feel cumbersome to me.

Now I personally also prefer elixir coated strings- I find that the longevity and comfort level far outweighs the slight difference in tone between them and NEW phosphor bronze strings.

jim

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Dexter
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 10:58 AM

Thanks, I feel better. I must admit, of all the guitars I've ever played, I have never found one that could compare in tone to Stella; even when test-driving the expensive models at the store.
I must also clarify: my guitar is not a Harmony "Stella" it is a Harptone which just so happens to be named after my first guitar which was indeed one of those Harmony jobs. It's a long, somewhat boring story which gains ineresting qualities only when you add beer; so, I won't bore you with it here.
dex

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 10:39 PM

Maybe not. Some guitars just have a naturally high action. Coincidentally, my first guitar was an old Stella that my Dad used before he bought his Gibson LG-1. That Stella had an action you could drive a truck under. It's amazing I stuck with playing the thing, thinking back to it now.

Playability is one disadvantage of a high action, which is offset by a better tone (for the higher action) they say. But often, too high an action will cause the notes to be too sharp when they are fretted. Tough to get the intonation right then.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Dexter
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 10:18 PM

O.K. you guys have scared me. I have an old Harptone, named Stella, with super high action. I pass the guitar around a circle of pickers and usually see winces and hear,"wow, that's some high action!" to which I usually smile beemingly as the crazy cowpoke who was mad enough to tame her. Other guitars feel like butter in my hands, and I've always been kind of proud of Stella's unwillingness to be rode by others. But, after reading this thread, I'm afraid her high action may be the result of some deformity. Please... say it ain't so!

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Annie
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 09:19 PM

Moineau is right. The Women In Music 00 is a quarter inch shallower in depth than a D size guitar. The intent is to make it deep like a dreadnaught to fill out the volume more than a standard 00.

I like chunking on barre chords for rhythm because I think they are good accompaniment for some vocals. I hardly ever use them for fiddle accompanyment though. I think guitar makers have yet to come up with the right combination of dimensions and sound for women. My small guitar is a lot more fun to play then my dreadnaught- especially when it comes to barre chords.


Annie

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: moineau nordique
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 03:55 PM

First of all, a Martin 00 does not have the same depth as a dreadnought, it's shallower.

Secondly, buy a good capo. Not a clamp-on type, because they distort the string spacing and pull the guitar out of tune. Paige is very good; Elliott or McKinney's the best, but way too expensive IMHO. I use my Paige, exclusively.

Thirdly, don't agonize over being able to barre chords. Many great guitar pickers don't even use them. Learn how to play the basics, well, then, after a while, if you're still of a mind, work on the barre chords. If you take on the really difficult stuff, first, you might be setting yourself up for failure.

Best of luck.

Owner of Paige, Shubb, Victor, and Kyser Capos.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: MAG
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 02:05 PM

Tell Mother Maybelle that barres are not folk ...

Kaleea, what model of that Maton worked for you? I have same set of problems. -- MAG

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM

Kaleea, that might be all well and good for you mate but over here in England the peolpe that taught me played with the very elite of the music industry. Steve Benbow: my guitar teacher, played with Ewan maccoll, A.L. Lloyd, Nadia Cattouse, Joseph Reindhart( YES Django's brother) Alexis Korner and Cyril Davies, Cisco Huston. And that is besides the people he played with when he was resident guitar player for the B.B.C.
Dis Disley: Jazz buff. Three finger chords Reindhart style! Played with Ellington and Grappelli!
Denny Wright: Grappelli's guitarist and top session man.
JUST BECAUSE ARE WAYS ARE DIFFERENT MATE DOES NOT MEAN EITHER OF US ARE RIGHT!!

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Annie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:54 PM

I recently found a 00 size guitar that works best for me for easy playing and sound. It's the Martin Women in Music guitar that has the depth of a D-size guitar, but the small 'footprint' of the grand concert. I've had a D-size guitar since 1975, and am thrilled to have things made so much easier with this new guitar. You can get more access to the neck by way of a smaller body. And that really helps with the barre chords. I wish it were not a cutaway, but that's all they offer in the extra depth version. I prefer a symetrical guitar for looks. The neck is wider than I would like, even though it's advertised as being smaller than vintage. I find the low action and small body to make up for the wide neck. My hand is getting used to the extra reach.

Annie

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:04 PM

Again, Murray, since when? I use barre chords a lot and use hammer-ons and pull-offs. Classic guitarists call them "slurs" and do that sort of thing all the time. Bass runs to, from, or between barre chords? No sweat. I don't see why you think it can't be done.

By the by, as far as being a "classical player manqués who decided to exploit folk music as plan B," for me, folk music was Plan A. When I first got interested in folk music, I got myself a steel string guitar. I played steel string guitars for a couple of years, then started taking classic guitar lessons so I could learn how to do all that stuff. I could see that what folk guitarists were doing was much the same as what classic guitarists were doing, only applied in a different way. The result is that I can and do accompany all kinds of songs: I can play real simple, straightforward accompaniments or I can get pretty flashy if the song calls for it. I can finger-pick when I want to, I can accompany very old English ballads and make the guitar sound like a lute if I want to, and when the spirit moves me, I can play some Fernando Sor or Francisco Tarrega. Also, on a good day and with a tail-wind, I can whip off a bit of flamenco. But primarily, I sing and accompany folk songs. I've been at it most of my life, and I'm really glad that I didn't let myself get stuck in any one style or technique.   

Don't set limits on yourself.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 07:57 PM

Murray you have said it all, now as I was about to add, if you really want to have fun....

If your happy and you know it, clap your bricks
But be sure the camel's ready as you strike
When it leaps into the air causing quite a stir
You should apply for a job laying eggs

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 07:15 PM

Don, Mary, it's all about hammer-ons, pull-offs, and moving bass lines. Can't do all that stuff using barre chords.

Merle Travis, Gary Davis, Blind Blake, .... need I say more?

Murray

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From:
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:50 PM

I too have a small hand , or rather a large palm but short fingers.

I searched around for years, till finally I came acrossa Giannini.
This is a Brazilian saple wood guitar ; usually the company make classical guitars, but occassionally you can find a steel/folk version. Not only is the action very low, the neck is narrower than usual, and the back of the neck is slightly flat.

I have used and abused it for years. It can be temperamental, quite intolerant of different string makers gauges, but when the right set is found it is a lovely sound. It has a deep tone in the bass yet a light touch in the trebles ; and as a bonus, the head is usually carved, with the machine heads hidden backwards, classical style.

Unusual, difficult to find, but worth the effort.

Where are you in the West Country- in England's West Country ?- I have relatives down that way.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:27 PM

I think consistently, Taylor steel string guitars over the greatest level of playability right off the shop floor. Some Martins are very good in this regard- and to my hands-, some are not, with a kind of chunky clublike feel to the neck (also the way some folks prefer them, the vintage feel. To my small fumbling hands, it's too much of a challenge.) There are some acoustic-electrics that have a very electric-feeling neck, but overall, they do not sound that great unplugged. I'm sure there are exceptions. Also some of the older Gibsons, like the LG-series from the 50's/60's, has a short scale and if the neck is straight, incredible action. And because of the shorter scale it's easier to fret. These make a nice, affordable little blues guitar. And NEVER underestimate the value of a good setup for your guitar- it can completely change the nature of the beast.

I never heard of Haruo. Are these imported into the states?

jpc

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:09 PM

I certainly cannot add to anything these guys are offering. However, if you want a sweet playing guitar, equal to any on the market, and you don't want to pay a lot, find a used Haruo. I have a twelve string that I bought for a song (pardon the pun) and it is one of the finest sounding guitars with the sweetest actions I have ever seen. That 12 has a better action than most 6 strings I have played. I have talked with other owners and they swear by those guitars.

This is a little known secret. Don't tell anyone until you have bought your guitar. (GRIN)

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:04 PM

Unless you play everything in the key of "A", you will almost certainly have to use at least some barre chords at some time. A very useful one is Bm (the Am shape, shifted up two frets; this is common when playing in "G" and "D").

One player I know uses a capo and the "G" chords for everything; it is amusing to watch as a melodeon player says, "This one's in the key of 'E'", and the guitarist puts the capo on the ninth fret.

The straighter a guitar neck, the lower the action can be made, which is why a guitar should never be overstressed with the wrong sort of strings (or too heavy a gauge of the right sort)*. It is possible to lower the action on guitars, but it is a job best left by novices, to professionals.



* I have a Gremlin, which I overstressed; the neck stood up to it, but the cheap plywood sound-board was warped, with the bridge pulled up and forwards; seen sideways on it is almost the shape of an arch-top. It is still playable, and the saddle can be lowered if need be.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Sam L
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:33 AM

Why do people always get divisive? Most of the classical I played WAS folk--old lute dances and such. I was asked to play a theorba for a concert, and had never played one, the classical guy said don't worry, it plays just like a strat.

   Barres and other chords are mostly holding a shape with your hands, and trying to use as little pressure as you can. So if you're used to a narrow neck, a wider one sorta feels harder. It's good to learn muted barres too, selected notes with the others merely stopped. It's not really much easier without the pressure, you still have to learn to hold the shapes.
I'd tend to agree, full barres are often mushy sounding, too many notes, just because they are there. I don't think I could do any barres without my thumb behind the neck, but I'll let it creep over on 1rst position things, sometimes mute or hold a bass note there. Why I'd ever need it for the fourth string is beyond me.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:56 PM

Don I am so happy you asked Murray that?

Thanks so much !!

Mary

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:47 PM

Murray, since when?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 08:28 PM

If the neck of a guitar is wide enough so the strings aren't too close together for your fingers, that's wide enough, And if you have small hands that might mean quite a narrow neck.

Barré Chords are no harder on a guitar with a narrow beck than a wide neck. On the other hand, chords where you put your thumb over to hold down the bottom string are impossible when the neck gets too wide.

So as narrow a neck as suits your hands makes sense, because it gives you the option of playing both if you chose. Some people seem to get very intense about their being something sinful about playing one or the other, but most people who've been playing folk guitars for long find they do it both ways, according to what they are playing.

One thing people haven't mentioned is weight - some guitars weigh a lot more tnan others, and if you can find a nice light guitar that suits you in other ways, that's a good idea too. Especially if you might want to carry it around sometimes, at festivals and so forth perhaps, or if you might want to be standing while you are playing. Why make it harder for yourself than it is anyway?

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 08:08 PM

You hear a lot of advertisement for hand grips, finger weights, etc to improve hand and finger strength. What's wrong with the idea of playing your guitar as much as possible to achieve those results?

If you exercise your hand and fingers by actually playing your guitar (e.g., making barre chords, playing songs, scales, what-have-you), you'll get the strength, improve your playing, and save a few bucks on equipment whose only purpose is to build muscles.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 08:07 PM

Thanks to all of you.
You have given me so
much food for thought.

Mary

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 06:26 PM

Barre chords have no place in "real" folk music.

Barre chords are only used by classical players manqués who have decided to exploit folk music as plan B.

Real folk guitarists use the thumb to fret the E string and the A string and when they get really good at it they thumb-fret the D string as well.

Murray

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: CraigS
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:34 PM

When I started playing, barre chords were a painful experience to be avoided. But I knew a tiny lady (4' 10") with tiny hands who had no trouble. She said sit classically. Cross left leg over right, keep machine heads level with left shoulder, keep elbow away from body so that forearm makes a right angle with the neck, thumb behind neck parallel with frets, fingers naturally fall in right places and it don't hurt. True!

Callouses necessary when learning because learner hasn't yet learned gentle touch. Should disappear over the years.

Get a guitar to learn with that plays easily. A good guitar sounds better than a cheapo, but does not necessarily play easier. All guitars need to be set-up properly. Low action often sacrifices a better sound for ease of playing (high action sounds better). Don't buy a second-hand guitar without good advice. Teachers often sell the best all-round deals to beginners - they want you to come back for lessons, so they won't rip you off. OTOH you won't get a bargain this way because they know what they are selling.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Kaleea
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:03 PM

Mary--now for the opinion of a short woman with short fingers, arthritis, & now double carpal tunnel! I have a 1964 Gibson J-45 with fabulous action. However, the current Gibsons have a neck which is slightly wider. For a few years now, I have been thinking about the fact that eventually I will need a smaller, thinner necked guitar due to the arthritis. Now, however, since an auto accident a couple of years back, I have quite painful neck & back injuries & double carpal tunnel syndrome. When I finally do get a settlement, I will be forced to find that guitar! The perfect one would be the little acoustic Fender guitar from the 60's & '70's, was it called the "Wildwood" and I think another model like it. They were made with the Fender electric neck, and the small body which used to be the "standard" size. However, since they are quite rare, I doubt if I will find one--but---I think I have found the answer! A friend of mine recently ran across a used Maton (made in Australia) guitar which is used by Tommy Emmanuel who is also from down under. Naturally, he went nuts & bought the guitar on the spot! So, when he brought it to our local session, I commandeered it all evening (as much as he'd let me). Without a doubt, the Maton neck is the neck I have been waiting to find (other than the Fender Wildwood) and I played that guitar most of the 2 hour session with no pain! I could not believe that I felt no pain! The action is every bit as low as my old Gibson, and playability is indescribable for this old, gray haired woman. Trouble is getting your hands on one to try it out before you buy one! There are a few Maton dealers in the states, but you may need to email the Maton folks down under to find one. Read all about Maton guitars here:
http://www.maton.com.au/

Sorry, Pete, but in my 30-odd (& boy have they been odd) years of playing guitar, I have played bar chords the way I saw the pictures of ye olde Mel Bay bar chords with my index finger as the barre. Oh, yeah, did I mention I am only 5 feet tall? & with short, squat fingers! I just love it when a big, tall guy complains about the correct fingering for the G chord, & when they whine about the bar chords, I ask them to compare their hands to mine--shuts them up rather quickly!

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Willie-O
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:54 AM

Some good news for you, Mary: once you learn barre chords, which you have to do, you will spend the rest of your playing career learning how to avoid them, unless you are playing rock music. As a chord form they are overrated, probably because their difficulty for the beginner suggests that they must be a "better" chord. Really, there aren't too many situations where there isn't another way to do it most of the time. A barre chord is simply one of many ways of getting the notes you need, in any key. Facility with a capo will take you a long way in the same direction.

But learning barres are a prelude to learning some cool things like movable 4-string chord patterns, partial barres, and playing bass notes with your thumb--which, once you get the hang of it, is a _lot_ easier than playing barre chords for a long period of time. Also my favorite, learning how to play chords up the neck that include open bass strings.

Keep on practicing those barres though, but look for a teacher--or ask your teacher if you have one--about some of these other approaches.

As for guitar comfort, it's all good advice that you've received. It's not just the action and the neck width that makes a guitar comfortable to play. Try out all sizes of guitars--small bodied guitars are very habit forming cause they're so comfy to hold. (Generally referred to as a "concert size" or the even smaller "parlor guitar".)

Keep at it and you will be rewarded many times over.

Willie-O






Um, when you say "then....
slide down one fret...." I think you mean slide UP one fret.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,sorfingers
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 11:10 PM

The best way to learn is from a Qualified Teacher.
The easiest instrument to learn on is the Gut Strung Spanish Guitar.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 10:34 PM

Thanks again...you have all been very helpful.
One more thing...
I met a new musician friend this week.
I have never had this explained to me before...this way..

He said.....Play the E chord...with your
little finger and fourth finger and middle finger...
then....
slide down one fret....
and use the pointer as the bar...
and thats how I have been practicing and
surprisingly finding it easy...to play my bar chords.

Mary

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Frankham
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 09:56 PM

Mary, you've gotten excellent advice. I don't see how you can go wrong.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Sam L
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 09:37 PM

Well, I shouldn't have seemed to disparage the wider neck, I haven't played on them much since doing some classical in college, and it's probably just a matter of adjusting when you're used to one or the other.
But Don's hand position is good advice either way. Some pretty good players do the thumb-over stuff, but that doesn't make it a good way to learn to do barres.

Yes, there's nothing like a good instrument. Every Larrivee I've ever picked up was a pretty darn good guitar with smooth action. And if you don't want a lot of goofy looking doo dads inlaid in your guitar they are cheaper. (I'd pay more to have that stuff removed.) I happen to like the sound of steel strings for most of what I play, don't care to debate that point.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:42 PM

Well, I know that Martin makes guitars but, hmmmm, does anyone else?

Awww, jus' funnin'.

Like, Leadfingers says, buy the best guitar you can afford. If ya' gave us a price range I think you'd get some specfic models to look out for.

Also, if ya' don't know guitars, find someone who does to check out what you've found before forkin' over any hard earned dough.

Good luck.

Bobert

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:40 PM

As Frank said above, most guitars can be "set up" with a low action, though many buyers aren't aware their NEW guitars will probably need a set-up not long after they've bought it. Most factory set-ups are left a little high, Ivve found. But aren't Taylors kind of "weel kent" for having a low, from-the-factory action?

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:28 PM

Mary buy the best guitar you can afford- A good second hand(used)is better than the same price new.Pete has some good advice and I have watched him play. None of the advice given so far is bad.If you are
going out to buy a guitar take some one with you who plays who can advise you.Dont buy a cheap instrument as a learner musician can very easily be fooled into thinking that it is THEM and not the instrument that is causing the problem. And the best of luck with your playing.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:48 PM

I appreciate all of your replies.....
thank you so much.

Mary

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:16 PM

Point:-- If you use the "thumb behind the neck" position that I recommend, keep your thumb opposite your second finger. Then when you do bar-chords, it rolls your index finger slightly on its side, which gives you a kind of "shear" effect. Leverage. Much stronger.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:03 PM

If you find bar chords hard to learn buy a set of the hand grips. I sat for hours playing with those things but I must stress that they have helped me emensly. You should really stick at learning the proper bar chords but you can cheat on them! Instead of playing the full bar put your first finger on the first srting (Instead of all the way across) and then carry on with the chord shape. I must stress here do not use this technique forever. Use it untill you can play the full bar without your hands aching and then find the most comfortable way for you. I play bar cords with three fingers for jazz and that is all you need, but in time you will discover all of this. If I can be of anymore assistance please dont hesitate to send me a p.m.
All the best and good luck!!
    Pete.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:59 PM

Not if you keep your thumb behind the neck, Fred. In the barre, the thumb and forefinger operate like a clamp. Easy.

Some years ago, I had a girl student with the very small hands. She wanted to learn some classic first, then folk song accompaniment. When we got to chords, I normally play the first position G chord with my 3rd finger on the 6th string, 2nd on the 5th, and 4th on the 1st. I started to show her the G with her 2nd on the 6th, 1st on the 5th, and 3rd on the 1st. She got it. But next week when she came for he lesson, she was doing it the way she'd seen me do it. Quite a stretch for her, but she got it. Like me, she used either fingering for the chord, depending on what went before and what was to come after. Some weeks later she was doing barres all over the neck. 'Course she was pretty diligent and she worked at it, but she got pretty darned good.

A wide classic fingerboard is no problem even for small hands, provided you keep your thumb behind the neck. This obviates the use of the thumb on the 6th string, but in fifty years, I've never found an occasion when I needed it.

But . . . whatever works.

Don Firth

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Sam L
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM

On the other hand, many nylon string guitars have a wider neck, which can be difficult for barres. If you like the sound of steel strings, I have an Oskar Schmidt (by washburn) which is a good "beater". Very cheap, sounds okay, stays in tune up the neck, very easy action. Above fret twelve there are some frets that buzz. But I filed a couple just a little, and don't get above that for many things. Even if you get a better guitar, I really like having one I can kick around with more casually.

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM

Good advice from Frank. Probably not much he doesn't know about folk guitar.

My two-bits worth:-- First of all, you want to decide on whether you want a steel-string guitar or a classic nylon-string guitar. This might depend a lot on the kind of music you're interested in. A good classic guitar with nylon strings has a rich sound that goes well with ballads and such songs. But not necessarily that appropriate for, say, bluegrass. Nylon strings are a lot easier on the left hand (less that half the tension), and if you hold your left thumb behind the neck instead of wrapped around it, reaches will be no problem, even for fairly small hands.

Don't put nylon strings on a steel-string guitar. It won't hurt the guitar, but the sound will be pretty anemic. Do not, under any circumstances, put steel strings on a classic guitar. Lightly constructed, the steel strings can pull a classic guitar apart.

If you feel that what you want to play demands the sound of steel strings, it's possible to equip the guitar with low-tension or silk-and-steel strings that are a lot easier on left hand. The sound you get will depend on the guitar, but generally they sound pretty good on almost any reasonably well-made instrument. One possible route to go would be to use low tension or silk-and-steel strings until your hand develops some strength, and then shift to regular steels.

I've played nylon-string classics for fifty years, but I'm primarily a balladeer.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: Frankham
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:47 PM

Hi Mary,

All guitars can be made with lower action unless the neck is irretrievable warped. The best guitars are usually the ones you have to pay more money for. A lot of that is subjective. Everyone has an opinion as to what the best is for themselves. The best thing you can do is hit every music store you can and try as many instruments out as possible. Then decide. My opinion is that playing any musical instrument well is not going to be easy but it is doable. When first starting out, many beginners are often impatient when they can't get a clear sound out of their chords. It takes a while to build callouses on your fingertips but the main thing is not to be discouraged. The chords will get clearer. There are all kinds of tips you will receive as to how to do this, but the only way your playing is going to get better is by consistently playing and not give up. Don't be confused by so-called "short cuts" because there aren't any. There are some physical patterns that can be built up for classical guitar but for the most part, folk guitar is trial and error. The reason for this is that folk guitar picking is highly "individual".There is, however, a correct way to place your left hand fingers on the strings of the
guitar. Always start with the finger on the thickest guage string first and then consecutively place the others down on the less thickest at a time. This keeps your wrist from wobbling around. Eventually all fingers will arrive together where they're supposed to be.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: Tech: question for guitar players....
From: GUEST,Mary V.
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:32 PM

I'm looking into buying a new guitar.
Could anyone share with me...
what the best guitar with the lowest action...

I think...bar chords are hard to learn..
but I am...learning them, and have
found, with my guitar the strings are as low
as they can be...
but there must be more expensive guitars
that would make it even easier.
Thanks from Mary