BS: Human shields escape to Jordan

Subject: Where's the human shields??
From: GUEST,Mr sicko
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:31 PM

So I see that Iraq is being attacked with rockets and stuff - where are the human shields? I mean they wanted to be there in the original deal didn't they? Of course they didn't stay there now did they.

So what's the deal - is it only when America is there? Is America only the bad guy? I see the recent "Peace protests" were mostly a bunch of ragamuffins crying for the destruction of America and Israel. You all still supporting those guys??

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Troll
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 11:10 AM

I couldn't access his article. My computer has been acting up lately. Sorry about the redundancy.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:52 AM

That's the exact same article that Wolfgang provided a link to in this thread in his 25 Mar 03 - 08:18 AM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Troll
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM

Heres another shields story; this time from the Telegragh in the UK.
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/03/23/do2305.xml


troll

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 06:16 PM

Here's an article from Reuters dated Tue March 25, 2003 04:04 PM ET. According to this article, there are about 150 human shields currently in Iraq. As of the 25th they were still alive and well, but I have no idea whether or not they are singing and dancing in downtown Bagdahd.

Reuters

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:05 PM

I don't know whether or not you noticed the date on that Guardian article, DougR. It's dated, Monday March 3, 2003. That's the day before your post quoting the Fox News Network as saying that all of the human shields had left Iraq. We subsequently learned that that was not true. The Guardian article only stated that some of them had left. Here's the opening post to your thread:

Subject: BS: No more human shields in Iraq
From: DougR - PM
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 06:15 PM

I just heard on the Fox News Network that the human shields so many of you admired for going to Iraq to place their innocent bodies near hospitals, childcare centers and the like departed from Iraq today. Why? They were shocked to find that the Iraqis placed them instead (and under guard) at power stations, oil derricks and other strategic bombing targets instead. They also were shocked to find that their airfares from the U. S. and Great Britain were paid for by the Iraqi government. Surprise, surprise! So now they are on their way home.

Look for more details in the mainstream press (if they choose to report it). McGrath, keep your eye on "The Guardian," I'm sure they will have a full report on it. :>)

DougR

I, personally, don't know enough about The Guardian to have an opinion about its crediblity, or lack of it. But from what I've seen here, you're doing an excellent job of proving the assertion that Fox isn't to be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: DougR
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:49 PM

Wolfgang, you made my day! Thanks.

Carol: Oh. Okay.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM

Carol C: so is it your contention that the human shields are still alive and well, singing and dancing in downtown Bagdahd?

At least you framed it as a question. But your talent for coming up with outrageous non sequiturs is truly breathtaking in its scope.

My answer is this: no that is not my contention.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:32 AM

Since Doug insists to read it in the Guardian (grin), here's a link to a Guardian article

...an exodus of disenchanted activists from Iraq.

At least 30 of the so-called human shields, including several Britons, were on their way home last night. Their departure brought a dispiriting end to their heady arrival in Baghdad two weeks ago.

The activists accused the Iraqi authorities of trying to use them as pawns in the war with America. More defections are expected in the coming days.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: DougR
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:48 AM

toad: thank you for that "clarification."

Carol C: so is it your contention that the human shields are still alive and well, singing and dancing in downtown Bagdahd?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:24 PM

Well, it's hardly a neutral site. Here's their "about us" page for anyone who wants to make up their own mind about whether or not they're credible.

Townhall.com

Townhall.com is the first truly interactive community on the Internet to bring Internet users, conservative public policy organizations, congressional staff, and political activists together under the broad umbrella of "conservative" thoughts, ideas and actions. Townhall.com is a one-stop mall of ideas in which people congregate to exchange, discuss and disseminate the latest news and information from the conservative movement. Townhall.com is committed to inform, educate and empower the public through this emerging electronic medium.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Troll
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:59 PM

Heres's another site with a story on the returning "Human Shields". I don't think this one is owned by the Moomies but you never know.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/joelmowbray/jm20030326.shtml

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: toadfrog
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:09 PM

Oh, I see Doug. I misspelled the word, "played" and you assumed it was "planned."

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: toadfrog
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:05 PM

Well Doug what I was driving at, and I guess I wasn't clear enough, is that I heard an intelligence specialist on the radio, who felt that it was likely that at the end of the war very valuable information from the Iraqi intelligence service would end up in U.S. hands. Stuff about all the neighbors, and who provided Iraq with military hardware, and enough damaging material on Sadaam to last for centuries.

I misremembered when I mentioned "Cheney." What the gentleman mentioned was that Donald Rumsfeld was in Iraq meeting Sadaam in December, 1983, and again on March 24, 1984, at a time when Iraq was using nerve gas against the Iranians. And also, I believe he referred to Bob Woodward's December 15, 1986 article in the Washington Post, to the effect the CIA was assisting the Iraqis in calibrating their wartime use of nerve gas.

And he observed, if Iraq falls, probably information would turn up which would either confirm or disprove these stories, and would cast light on the role Rumsfeld played as Ronald Regan's envoy in Iraq when Iraq was known to be using that nerve gas. But he doubted that such information would ever become known or available.

Those things sort of stuck in my mind, so I mentioned them.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 08:56 AM

I think that the phrase "Human Shields" would make a great name for a musical group whose focus was specifically against the war.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:43 AM

FL,

"Unfortunately, Dubya is willing to use nukes pre-emptively."

On what grounds is that contention based?

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:17 PM

I fail to see the significance IF this was planned in the 1980's Toad. Please 'splain to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:15 PM

Would that be this thread with the link to this article, toadfrog?

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:02 PM

Who was it who said, "truth is the first casualty in war"? Why do people keep posting all this stuff? It is like the one Doug posted a while ago, from Fox News about how Sadaam was making all the volunteers ("human shields") guard military sites and not schools and hospitals. I expressed doubts, and Doug said, rather airily, that other sources must have repeated the story since. So the Wall Street Journal did, later state, that some people had left after being told to occupy "water filtration plaints, electric generation plants, and oil refineries." Those aren't military targets. Destroying parts of the infrastructure like water filtration plants and electric generators hits civilians as directly as hitting their homes. Actually, I think better of the American military than to think they would target water filtration plants, or electric generation plants, or even (in this context) oil refineries.

I'm sure that whenever this is over, it will be possible to discover all kinds of horrible crimes Sadaam committed, so we can learn about it from reliable sources - not Fox News. And I am sure that there will also be information in Iraq's archives about the part Dick Cheney and GBS senior plained in all this, way back in the 1980's.

What do you bet we never see any of that information?

Please note Kat's thread about the false statements in Powell's U.N. Address.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:27 PM

Do you have some background on "The Guardian" that you think we should know about DougR?

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:57 PM

Perhaps "The Guardian" has printed something on his story?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:59 PM

Carol- I don't know if you've noticed how frequently you reference UPI's and The Washington Times moonies connection, but if anyone has spent even a small amount of time reading the policital threads they know it by now. No offense meant, it's just that you bring it up fairly frequently.

And here I was thinking you figured it out by looking at my name in the heading of my post.

I'll continue to point out that fact as long as people use the UPI (or the Washington Times) as a source of information. Just as other people, quite rightly, point out the background of other sources of information being posted by other people. For instance, if I were to use "The Electronic Intifada" website as a source for documentation of something I posted, I know troll would call me on it, as he has in the past. I've learned (maybe the hard way) that it's important to look to the credibility of the sources one uses as documentation to support one's argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Beccy
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:47 PM

Carol- I don't know if you've noticed how frequently you reference UPI's and The Washington Times moonies connection, but if anyone has spent even a small amount of time reading the policital threads they know it by now. No offense meant, it's just that you bring it up fairly frequently.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:44 PM

Neither is unanimity among human shields. Pepper seems to be a correct story (if you follow the other links down at the telegraphs page (they had stories including him before).

I could also link to a German site on which a German human shield (now back home) says he'd do it again.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:43 PM

Teribus-your last two points failed to mention the Geneva Accords. If we want to have any traces of international or even internal respect, not to mention avoid large-scale destruction, we will not under any circumstances save the last possible defense use nuclear weaponry. Unfortunately, Dubya is willing to use nukes pre-emptively.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM

Yesterday I heard an Iraqi woman being interviewed on the radio. She is participating in the anti-war movement here in the US. She was living in Bhaghdad during the last Gulf War. She thinks this war against her country is wrong. So clearly there isn't any sort of unanimity of opinion even among Iraqis.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:09 PM

Then again, he might work for the CIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:09 PM

I don't know, Carol. That that thing from the Telegraph was also just an internet forum, wasn't it?

It looks like an online editorial page of a newspaper, but I take your point, heric, and I think I'm going to agree with artbrooks on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:07 PM

Actually, the Telegraph guy might be legit:

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/02/020510.fota.shtml

Alterity and Everyday Political Consciousness. A collection of photographs of Afghan refugees in Pakistani refugee camps, taken by fourth-year Daniel Pepper in December 2001. First floor, Joseph Regenstein Library, 1100 E. 57th St., Sunday, May 12 - Sunday, May 26.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:02 PM

I believe that I shall wait until I see something on this from a more credible source before I will pay a lot of attention to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:56 PM

I don't know, Carol. That that thing from the Telegraph was also just an internet forum, wasn't it?

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM

How did I know the Moonie reference was from Carol?

I don't know, Beccy. How did you know?

Good job backing yourself up, Troll.

Actually, he didn't do such a good job of backing himself up. I couldn't get his second link to work, but all of his links seem to just be the same UPI article quoted in a bunch of different places. Some of them are even internet forums like this one. And the Washington Times is owned by the moonies too.

Wolfgang did a good job of providing an alternate source for similar information, and that was what I was hoping for.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM

VERY light reading, troll. None of it deserving credibility yet. Maybe later.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Beccy
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:22 PM

How did I know the Moonie reference was from Carol?

Good job backing yourself up, Troll.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Alice
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM

Thanks for the link, Wolfgang. I was amazed when I heard that people were trusting Saddam and going in as human shields. Saddam and his sons' torture and oppression have been so well documented over the years that I'm surprised that there were people naive enough to let themselves be used as his tools.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:18 AM

One more voice telling a similar tale (from Telegraph, UK)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:16 AM

Kaleea,

Slightly bemused about the content of your post above - what on earth has it got to do with the subject of this thread. If it is the tacit admission of the realisation that Saddam Hussein, and the Ba'athist Regime, has to be removed from power, then all well and good.

But looking at the path taken to deliver that statement about 90% of it is pluralist-anti-Bush/US administration, the bulk of which relating to latter is based on 100% 20 x 20 hindsight, that completely ignores the world situation at the time the events alluded to took place.

Examples:

"...nobody seemed to mind when dubbya's pappy helped put sadsack insane into office "over there."

Wish people didn't resort to the childish name calling - Neither George Bush senior or the CIA put Saddam Hussein into power over there. The CIA did assist the Ba'ath regime in 1963 - the alternative AT THE TIME was considered to be much worse.

"...a dozen years ago, pappy couldn't undo what he'd done."

I believe that it is generally acknowledged that the UN mandate governing the Gulf War of 1991 was to liberate Kuwait - it did not sanction, nor require the total conquest of Iraq - as part of the cease-fire agreement that ended "Desert Storm" hostilities, Iraq was required to disarm.

Grounds please for statements such as:

"..dubbya has his head set on new-kyew-ler-ing another country,..."

and,

"...dubbya is gonna "newk" no matter what."

I have seen no evidence whatsoever for either of those contentions. Possible reasons for making them may be based on two well known principles that would be adhered to by anyone sitting in the Oval Office charged with the responsibilities of that office:

1. On entering into any conflict or war situation, nobody provides their enemies with a definitive list of what weapons may or may not be used against them.

2. The use, or more accurately and correctly, the potential use of tactical nuclear weapons, has been the standard NATO deterrent against, threatened or potential use of chemical/biological weapons since the mid-sixties.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Kaleea
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:02 AM

When someone like dubbya has his head set on new-kyew-ler-ing another country, & he is sitting in the chair which dubbya is sitting in (from where I heard him use the term "new-kyew-ler" as opposed to the phonetically correct: noo-klee-ar), then one may attempt to "shield" or carry signs & sing peace songs, but dubbya is gonna "newk" no matter what. When dubbya was placed into office, I told people I knew that he would have us in "all out bloody hell war," and almost no one believed me. "surgical"? "clean"? w-a-r spells war, & war means people die. d-i-e means dead people. People means both the "thems" and the "us"s, and there are alot of people around the globe who think dubbya is the biggest "them." Funny how nobody seemed to mind when dubbya's pappy helped put sadsack insane into office "over there." Then a dozen years ago, pappy couldn't undo what he'd done. Now dubbya thinks this will make him more popular? We all know insane is a beast & never should have been allowed to be backed by pappy & the monkey's uncle (he was Bonzo's uncle!) administration. And we also know that insane needs to be taken out. But at what cost? and I don't mean dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Troll
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:49 AM

"Human" Shields get a dose of clue...
... Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East,
told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he ...
www.madkane.com/wwwboard/messages/5587.html - 6k - Mar 23, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages

The Agonist: Comment on Flash XXVI
... Re: Worth Reading. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian
Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality.". ...
www.agonist.org/cgi-bin/mt/ mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=800 - 18k - Mar 23, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages



The Cornblog
... Here is a quote: Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church
of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the ...
korndog.blogspot.com/ - 23k - Mar 23, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages



March 2003, Part 3 - Jim Miller on Politics
... Shocked Back to Reality: That's what happened to Kenneth Joseph, a pastor with the
Assyrian Church of the East who had gone to Iraq to serve as a human shield. ...
www.seanet.com/~jimxc/Politics/March2003_3.html - 20k - Mar 23, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages

Group shows Iraqis welcoming US -- The Washington Times
... Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor of the Assyrian Church of the East, said
the trip to Iraq "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he ...
www.washtimes.com/world/20030323-9543832.htm - 27k - Mar 23, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages



The Angry Clam
... Iraq (in a United Press International news story about people fleeing into Jordan):
Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East ...
angryclam.blogspot.com/ - 46k - Mar 23, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages

TYSK - NEWS & EDITORIALS
... Peaceniks Jolted back to Reality; Return from Iraq with 14 hours of Uncensored Video
Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the ...
www.tysknews.com/News/news.htm - 78k - Mar 23, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:30 AM

I'd like to see this mentioned in some source other than the UPI, what with the UPI being owned by the Moonies and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Troll
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:24 AM

I forgot to provide the link. Sorry.
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r

troll

Subject: BS: Human shields escape to Jordan
From: Troll
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:22 AM

Just a little light reading.
A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers
                made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government
                minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI
                the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would
                commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain
                their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of
                which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow
                torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they
                could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."

troll