BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 23 May 03 - 10:40 AM

Sound like the lot that "did up" my Dad's place. Installing a shower which we had to put a notice on and uninstall sharpish - it was live! He had to have the place rewired, but at least electricians were ready to do it. My electrical problems are small - a socket attached to the water heater circuit, which is supposed to be dedicated and 30 amp. But it's safe, so long as it isn't on at the same time as the heater (just blows a fuse anyway), so awaits the big rewire some time in the future.

The builders had their own odd plans. My place is a maisonette, with an entrance at ground level, and stairs running up from the door to the next floor. The kitchen lies ahead, the living room to the right. The door at the head of the stairs is into the living room, so there is a sharp right, can't get the bed, wardrobe, sofa etc through turn through the fire door at the top of the stairs. The flight to the next floor runs up from the living room, at the opposite end from the kitchen. There is only one light switch in the living room, at the kitchen end. There is no light on the upper flight. It is illuminated by a glass pane into the living room, and a glass fire door onto the upper landing. (Two way switch, top and bottom.) Going upstairs last thing at night presents problems.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:18 AM

I think there is a tendency for all of us to think that "previous owners" are a special breed of lunatics; but it often is hard to find reasons why a sane person would do the things you find.

One of the outstanding "features" of our current house is a quarry tile floor in the kitchen, laundry, hall, and an adjacent "rec" room (large enough that they had a 7 foot pool table, with "adequate" room to play). The only problem is that the idiot former owners laid the tile themselves, I'm sure, in concrete rather than grout, and there are mismatches in the level of adjacent tiles of up to a half inch. (Really hard on bare toes when you stumble through in the dark.)

When I decided to replace the "throne" in one bathroom, I found that they had literally poured a 2 inch thick "slab" of concrete over the base of the existing toilet. It took 7 or 8 hours with a 3-lb hammer to get the #@$% thing out, but it did explain why the seat was so low that a healthy young person needed a grab rail to get off it.

Shortly after we moved in I made a survey and found that I would have to keep 17 different kinds of lightbulbs on hand to match intended usage in the existing fixtures when a bulb burned out.

I found one junction box in the attic where our "master do-it-your-cheap-self had stuffed 11 connections (code limit is 4, with the wire size used, in that size box). I've had "adequate" electricians out for a couple of small jobs, and have asked for a bid on re-vamping the electrical systems. They don't exactly refuse to touch it - they just disappear and never come back (and "don't remeber being there" if I call.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 23 May 03 - 05:25 AM

I'm inclined to blame the hot water episode - it was VERY hot -because there is no obvious impact mark, just the hairline, and it's close to the taps. On the other hand, flexing might do it, as it's near to where I stand to shower. Second thoughts - the relation to the position of the legs isn't right for the forces - I'd have to be balancing on one leg over the plughole, and I don't do that. I think the previous owners had had some liquid in there, probably on just one occasion. The level is below the overflow, and there is just one tideline. Whatever it was did not damage the metal plug surround, which just shows signs of wear, not corrosion.

I've actually been in the house some time, but moving from bedsit land had a rather high threshold of tolerance, and a rather low level of interest in the oddities left behind. As I change the carpets and so on, I am finding that they didn't just have terrible taste in wallpaper, they did things oddly, too. The master bedroom had white shag pile carpet. Below it, most of the floor was bare floorboards, but on two sides only had a strip of vinyl. A piece of this vinyl had been used on the landing as the centre part, surrounded by 1950's coloured linoleum tiles, with no obvious pattern to the laying of three colours. Where is the rest of it? (The house is 1960's.) Under the bath is a shallow biscuit (cookie) tin to catch drips from the cracks in the surround. Not sufficient with a shower, as I found out in my kitchen one morning.

I was very glad to find out how innocent the things which can strip the top layer of the enamel can be!

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 May 03 - 09:42 PM

It's quite possible that the previous tenants were just trying to keep the tub clean, but used one of those abrasive scouring powers - probably repeatedly - and didn't rinse the chlorine well afterwards. It doesn't really take too many attempts at trying to get the soap scum out to do quite a lot of damage to the surface, especially if you use one or the other of those things the porcelain people warned you about. Or maybe they just had a couple of bad batches of gin. (In some households, degreasing motorcycle parts has been known to cause visible artifacts.)

It's unlikely (not impossible) that your hairline cracks are the result of hot water. Most such cracks are the result of an "impact" or due to not having the tub on a solid/level surface, so that it's "bent" over a period of time - or flexed repeatedly in the same spot. I don't know of any generally useful treatment for them. Unless they're exceptionally ugly, the best procedure may be to think of them as the "signs of graceful aging."

There are "porcelain touch up" materials that applied properly can often render small "dings" nearly invisible. (They have a bad reputation because they are almost never applied per instructions.) Unfortunately, the repair won't have the same response to the soaps and other "bath accessories" as the surrounding material, so it will eventually begin to show; and may look worse than the original defect when it does. I've used them with some success on stoves and refrigerators, but the tub is a rather nasty "chemical" environment to expect much from them.

John

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 May 03 - 07:15 PM

Right, I no longer have ironstains on my bath. Incidentally, the top glaze layer is the one that had gone below a tide-line, and the absence of which has led to all this activity. It's absence is due to the actions of a previous occupant. I don't know what they did, or what liquid they had in the bath, but they tried to cover the dull surface with some painty product of which very little remained when I moved in, and had itself been scraped. At least that explains why I can't get it back to original gloss. Thanks for the background, John. I'm using the car polish to protect the new shine, so the vulnerability to new stains should be under some control.

I used a copy of Coke which I found in the garage while looking for the oxalic acid, which I am now quite worried about. It isn't where I originally put it, in the kitchen. I remember deciding to move it away from food (it was somewhere I had to stand on a step ladder and move things to get to, but I decided to be safer.) It isn't with cleaning things under the sink. I have yet to look in the store cupboard near the front door with my tools and rock collection. It isn't in the garage with the potassium permangate. But there I found a small Cola can which I had bought a couple of years back for a friend who didn't drink it. Still sealed, but partly empty. Strange. It didn't work easily, but with a little encouragement from the abrasive, I have a whiter bath. Neither it, nor the paper worked alone. Thanks Micca.

I have now discovered a hairline crack in the enamel. I think this is due to over-hot water when my thermostat went wrong a while back. Any ideas?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:35 PM

My bad - that should be "grayish" not "gayish"!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:02 PM

My bad - that should be "grayish" not "gayish"!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:00 PM

We had rust stains (mineral deposit?) in our toilet bowls that simply wouldn't come out with any of the liquid "Works" type cleaners. My wife finally found a pumice-stone-on-a-stick product in an Old Vermont catalog.

I expected it to be another loser, but it worked great! You can really rub off the stains without too much work, and apply your energy to the specific offending portion.

I've since found them on the shelf in our local supermarket, near the usual cleaning products. They look like a big gayish stone popsicle on a stick. It might be worth a try.

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 May 03 - 03:59 PM

If available, the CLR mentioned by a couple of people might be one of the better things to try on the stains described. Other "commercial" products that might be available are commonly sold under the brand(?) name "Naval Jelly," although it comes in two different kinds, one of which is specifically for iron rust and the other for "everything else." (If there's a boat yard nearby, those guys are always fighting corrosion and rust. They might have something(?))

Oxalic acid is commonly used for "cleaning" both porcelains and textiles in industrial settings; but you should be aware that it is not just corrosive, it is also a potent nerve toxin. You should use extreme caution in using it in any "makeshift" manner - especially in combination with "other ingredients."

The porcelain on typical tubs is pretty thick, and hard enough that you're not likely to "sand through it," although the shine on new porcelain comes mostly from the soft glass that "floats" out of the mix during firing. This glaze layer is usually quite thin, and it may, or may not, form a continuous surface film, but in a new appliance it should completely coat the underlying "ceramic" material. Once you wear - or sand - through the glaze layer and expose the underlying "white stuff," the tub will be somewhat more susceptible to new stains, and a little harder to keep clean, since the "white stuff" has a tendency to be at least slightly porous.

If the tub is old enough to have a "penetrating" rust stain, it's likely the glaze is already broken; and it probably is not worth worrying too much about trying to protect it. Most of those "don't evers" that the porcelain people feed offer you are based on not damaging an intact glaze layer, so if the tub is an older one you can use your own judgement about which of them are still applicable.

Because of the porosity of the white stuff, you are not likely to sand a "major stain" off without reaching the iron/steel underneath, but you might make it if it's just "in the surface."

John

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 22 May 03 - 01:40 PM

Don't confuse relative acidity with acid strength! pH2 and pH4 both may be extremely weak. pH is the negative log of the effective hydrogen-ion concentration of hydrogen activity in gram equivalents per liter of solution- if you remember your school chemistry.

NO, I don't either. But my first statement is true.

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: MMario
Date: 22 May 03 - 01:11 PM

this site says Coke products range from 2.5 to 4.2 in Ph.

Classic coke is the most acidic.

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:39 PM

CLR, a commercial liquid cleaner, mentioned above, is widely available. It acts quickly and very little is needed. Initial cost seems high, but it goes a long way. I use it to clean my taps and sinks (water extremely hard), and the quart container must be two years old. Never use abrasives on porcelain (also damages aluminum sinks, etc., etc.).

The chemical action of phosphoric acid is different from that of hydrochloric; we used both in a lab I was connected with (although some uses overlap).

Several cleaners have phosphoric acid content; makes me wonder if phosphoric-containing fertilizers might work! On the other hand, phosphates may be too stable for quick action. Never thought to try it. There are worries, however, about cumulative effects. Phosphoric acid in run-off causes plant blooms in streams and lakes, and damages the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:10 AM

Incidentally, the enamel is still quite thick, and all my rubbing is only having a very superficial effect. Most of the solid which is released is silicon carbide from the paper. I don't want to try to rub deep enough to remove the iron stain, because of the risk of exposing the iron of the bath. I think the worst stain was caused one summer holiday when my pot plants were living on a wet cloth, which had, unbeknownst to me, a pin or something similar in it.

I also think that the reason I have not come across the automotive bodywork method before is that those who put forward the worst case scenarios for bath enamel are in the business of a) providing new baths, or b) providing new coatings for baths. Restoring the polish by polishing removes the necessity for either of these solutions.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 May 03 - 10:25 AM

Micca -

No argument about pH being the chemist's measure of the "acidness" of something, but "strength" is a vernacular term that doesn't really say the same thing as "acidity." Meant it as a little tweak about "mixed metaphors," rather than as an attack of your technical knowledge. (And one "times" weaker means it's all gone, so "thousand times weaker" is not a good technical term, unless you're in advertising(?).)

I'm aware of the passivation layer produced when iron containers are used with concentrated sulfuric, but thought that was a little more technical than necessary here. I was saving that one for the "how to make stainless steel not stainless" thread.

I am a little puzzled at your citation of pH 2.75 for Coke. Carbonation (with natural or injected CO2) and formation of carbonic acid is used because bicarbonate is naturally a "buffer" material that tends to stabilize the pH at a relatively fixed value. It's been at least 4 or 5 decades since I've done the pH measurement on soft drinks, but that seems rather too acid to keep the "fizz," and I don't recall finding that much difference between brands. Maybe you tested one of the "new" Cokes, which I find much too nasty to drink?

John

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Micca
Date: 22 May 03 - 09:40 AM

JiK, pH is the most reliable indicator of acid strength,(and what Chemists normally use as such) what you are referring to above is different acids havean abilty to react with substances because of the nature of the materials, it is NOT a function of acid Strength. Conc Sulphuric does attack Iron but after the initial reaction it forms an (unreactive and insoluble) skin on the surface and the reaction ceases, Phosphoric acid( or any other you may wish to use) needs to produce a soluble product fron the oxide(rust) and not (or minimally) attack the pure metal, This is the case as the product is soluble Iron Phosphate. Many of the commercial "Rust removers" contain Phosphoric in varying amounts for this reason.

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 22 May 03 - 07:44 AM

I DO have some oxalic acid somewhere. In a dry form, like citric. But I put it somewhere where it could not be easily picked up and used for something innappropriate for a poison. High up and at the back of somewhere. I haven't seen it for ages.

Maybe some rhubarb.... then meths for the chlorophyll....

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 May 03 - 05:16 AM

Micca -

The pH alone isn't a very good indicator of "stronger" or "weaker." Before the current plastic liners were developed, concentrated sulphuric acid was shipped in iron tanks, which it will not corrode, but diluted sulphuric acid (as in early batteries) had to be kept in glass. Particularly with iron, weak (dilute) acids are often more effective than stronger ones.

Carbonic acid, as in carbonated drinks, may be "effective," but we have some very fine and beautiful subterranean caverns that demonstrate that it also attacks the calcium/limestone components of the vitreous glazes often used on/in porcelain.

The are a number of fairly effective "rust removers" available at my local hardware/lumber/drug-store outlets, and my recollection is that the ones intended for use on rusted iron have "oxalic acid" as the main active ingredient. One that I've used that's quite handy was a "gel" that stayed where you put it for "spot cleaning."

In order to dissolve the iron, it needs to be "reduced" by something that can "suck the oxygen" out of it. If you have black iron stains, quite a few things may work; but if they're reddish, the red-iron-oxide is very stable, and will resist most of the "weak acid" treatments - and some of the weak acids can "damage" the adjacent glaze, if there's much of it left.

If the commercial rust removers are not available, you might have some luck talking to your pharmacist, a jeweler who has some experience in "restorations," or even a local (auto) repair/body shop. Cautions by previous posters do apply to handling oxalic acid, which is one of the reasons I don't have any left in the house to check the label. I'll try to look some up to re-check the ingredients if I get out of the house soon.

John

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Micca
Date: 22 May 03 - 03:35 AM

Rapaire, you are correct in that Carbonated drinks contain Carbonic acid but as it is a weak acid( comparatively) with a pH of about5~6 compared to Coca Colas 2.75 that (as the pH is Logaritmic)it is a 1000 times weaker!!!!!,(the lower the number, the more acidic)

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Kaleea
Date: 22 May 03 - 02:47 AM

The house I rented (before I was unable to work) had a nasty tub, which had been re-surfaced by a "pro" & had 3 spots where the new gunk flaked off, not to mention a few spots along the edge of the tub where mold had stained. It's not the most beautiful thing in the world, but I used some white caulk (an entire tube!) which is for use with vinyl siding--from the manufacturer of the siding, no less, as it comes in the exact colors to match their vinyl siding, and comes with a lifetime warranty like the siding. This might be similar to the most expensive tube of acryllic caulk one might find at a "lumberyard" or "home fixing-up products" type of place. I got it from the home improvement company where I worked at the time. I smeared it onto the spots, and all around the edge of the tub (& a few other spots on the walls) and then quickly & carefully smoothed it out because it dries rather fast, being acryllic/vinyl. I "sanded" it in a couple of spots with a nail file to make it even with the wall. The owner almost fainted when she saw the tub--she was delighted! The moldy spots have not been able to come through it yet, either. It is not shiny, though. One might fine a better & shinier method, that one just happened to be the cheapest within my reach--i.e., FREE!

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:26 PM

The dishwasher repairer was here a week or so ago, and told me to use toilet bowl cleaner to clean the calcium and lime deposits out to the dishwasher. He put some in, ran it, and it is spanking clean and runs just fine. He used a product called "The Works" toilet bowl cleaner, but said that a product called "CLR" would work too -- just more expensive.

You might also try any carbonated beverage, since (Micca, correct me if I'm wrong here) they should contain carbonic acid, at least. As of lemon juice -- why not just use a lemon? Coffee pot cleaners, such as "Dip-It", are usually citric acid, and you might get some of this at a chemist's (drugstore).

Using ANY acid or alkali, ALWAYS wear chemical-resistant gloves and eye protection!!!

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:15 PM

I took off the iron stain from my sink with- brace yourself- toilet bowl cleaner. I had tried everything else and nothing had worked. Doesn't take off lime scale though, but at least it's white.

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Micca
Date: 21 May 03 - 07:17 PM

Penny, YES!!!!, since it has a pH of 2.73 according to some stuff I read recently and is mostly phosphoric and sugar anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 03 - 07:00 PM

Thanks Micca - the stains are on the base, so easy enough. But I don't have a contact with a lab technician - used to have a neighbour here, but not any more. Would Coca Cola work?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:55 PM

That's interesting, as the vitreous guys speak most disparagingly of bleach - and bubble bath, soap, hair dye, soap powder, and in fact left me feeling I should just look at the bath, and never, ever use it. (Put the coal in it? - Oh no, more iron stain, from the pyrite.) Vinegar, and lemon juice outlawed. There are products in America and Australia, but people who import related products haven't brought in the rust stain versions. Ammonia wasn't mentioned, though, and CaCO3 is easy enough to get round here. So thanks - I might give that a try. But before polishing that bit.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Micca
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:49 PM

Penny, my first thought is to have a word with your nearest friendly Laboratory technician and see if they will let you have a small amount of Phosphoric acid which is real neat and removing rust without attacking the underlying metal, much gentler than Hydrochloric etc, It may need a little time in contact with the stain so if it is in an akward place, like a vertical surface for instance, wet a paper towel with the phosphoric and it should stick long enough to do the job!! wear gloves!!and goggles when applying it , splashes are NOT pleasent

Subject: RE: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:45 PM

I don't know if this fits your problem, but this is from my Consumer Reports book on how to clean things: for stains on vitreous or porcelain enamel, apply a solution of 1 cup of chlorine bleach and 1 quart of water. Leave for only 15 seconds, then rinse. Clean heavy mineral deposits with warm water and vinegar. For stubborn stains on glazed enamel surfaces, add ammonia to calcium carbonate to make a paste, apply, leave for an hour, and rinse. If the surface is unglazed, sponge uncolored household scouring powder and water onto the area and leave for five minutes. Scrub with a stiff-bristled brush and rinse.

Good luck.

Subject: BS: There's ironstain on my bath! Help!
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:29 PM

It's very hard to find a music link for this, but I have seen a lot of good advice on household problems from Catters. After years of putting up with my enamel bath the way I acquired it, with an etched surface, lime scale, and the remains of someone's enamel paint on it, I began to think about restoring it. I thought I would have to have it resurfaced, or buy a new one, until I realised that there is more than one way to get a glossy surface back. Not recommended on the vitreous enamel manufacturers web sites, I am attacking it with wet and dry papers and metal polishes, and finishing it with one of those showroom shine car polishes. It is successful and most rewarding (though I have to admit I have not got it quite back to factory setting - I don't want to strip all the enamel off!). The remaining problem is the iron stain, which is too deep to polish off. Does anyone have any folk remedy for rust staining? It's small discrete marks - one's a bit paperclip shaped.

Penny

Music link. 'Twas on a Monday morning, that I beheld my darling,
She looked so neat and charming in every high degree,
She looked so neat and nimble Oh, a polishing her bathtub Oh,
Dashing away with the wet and dry,
Dashing away with the wet and dry,
Dashing away with the wet and dry,
She stripped the enamel away.

And on Tuesday, Wednesday ......