folk songs as propaganda

Subject: RE: folk songs as propaganda
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 08:21 AM

Thanks McGrath thats exactly the excuse I would have used ;)

Childe Ballad? Childe Roland? what the hey?

Subject: RE: folk songs as propaganda
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 11:05 AM

Child - Childe. I think the error arises because the word "Childe", (meaning a sort of apprentice knight) turns up a good few times in the actual ballads, so it looks quite familiar. Generally we spot mispellings because they are unfamiliar.

Subject: RE: folk songs as propaganda
From: GUEST,mattDP
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 10:53 AM

Thanks for the replies. That is indeed the song that I'm talking about, although the version I've got is somewhat cut down: there's no mention of a wager involved.

Subject: RE: folk songs as propaganda
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 07:58 AM

There are a good few songs in which ordinary folk match wits with kings (generally outwitting them, but only just); the theme was a popular one, and I don't think there's any need to look for didactic intent, or to read hidden meanings into them. It's a mistake, incidentally, to imagine that a Scottish song must have been interfered with, or imported, if it is not anti-English! That would be a rather narrow view of history and of the relationship between the peoples of the two countries. In the case of this song, I'd be interested to know where anyone might get the idea that there are "English overlords" involved. The Scottish ruling class was Scottish, not English.

If you want some propaganda that was adopted into popular tradition, consider the transportation ballads, which frequently end with such lines as

If you knew the hardships we endure, you'd never poach again.

Francis J. Child didn't spell his name with an -e, incidentally. It's a mistake a lot of people make, for some reason.

Subject: RE: folk songs as propaganda
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 07:42 AM

If we're talking the Childe Ballad that Watson identifies above then you need to read it a little more closely. The harper uses his skills to steal the Kings horse in order to win a wager with his English overlords. Its a song to indicate the scottish dislike of the English nobility who rule over them.

Subject: RE: folk songs as propaganda
From: Watson
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 06:43 AM

Is it the one that's in DT as Lochmaben Harper?

Subject: RE: folk songs as propaganda
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 06:33 AM

It's a good idea to post the text of a song, Matt, or a link to the text, when launching a discussion about it.

Subject: folk songs as propaganda
From: GUEST,MattDP
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 06:19 AM

Hi,

Obviously there are a large number of political folk songs from ages past: songs in support of/against the Jacobite Rebellion being one popular theme that seems to make it into recordings time and time again.

Whilst listening to Nic Jones' rendition of "The Blind Harper" it struck me as being a very curious song. Here is a song which is (apparently) being sung from a Scots viewpoint about a harper who travels to England and first outwits and is then outwitted by the English King. At the end of the song though, the King turns out to be really quite a pleasant chap.

Now this strikes me as odd because it's fairly unique in my experience of folk songs. Firstly it portrays what is effectively a conflict between the Scots and English but not at all in angry or divisive tones. Second it appears to be a Scots song which finds favour with the English king. Anyone who's listened to a number of Scots folk tunes is going to agree that saying anything nice about the English is a most unlikely theme.

Now it struck me (finally getting to the point) that this song might have one of three origins. Firstly, it might just be a happy old "nursery rhyme" type tale. Second it might be a song written by an English source to convince people that the Scots don't mind the English really. Thirdly that it might be an English song designed to show the king in a good light in Scotland. In either of the last two cases it'd be an early example of self-perpetuating propaganda!

Am I at all on the mark here, or am I just waffling madly? Are there any other songs that fit this category?