BS: 244 Haj Pilgrims trampled to death

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:38 PM

well.......I have just re-read ALL of this thread, including my own tedious but eloquent (*wry smile*) contributions. Nothing has really changed, in the managers of the Hajj, or in we, the commentators.

I am not religious, but often I wish there WERE a 'Supreme Being' that I could confront directly and berate for (his) attuitude and tedious whims....even if it costs me eternal torment! (what's that? You say, "don't worry, it will"?...fine.)

As it is, I will continue...when approptiate, to denounce superstition and ignorance and plead for ALL the clerics of the world..(not just the Muslim ones) to show some rationality in how they advise their flocks....but I will not hold my breath, as I don't look too good in blue.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:09 PM

One of the problems with religions is that people IN given religions think others should give a rat's rear about it.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:55 PM

One of the biggest problems of ANY religion is the mentality - or lack thereof- of the believers at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:52 AM

Or maybe people could believe in a god or gods, if they wished, rather than a religion

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM

I've read a long article about a German dissertation about mass panic and Mecca and think this is a goos thread to tell about the problems of the research and interesting results and, in addition to that, how tradition often prevents solutions.

The problem is known: Each year again in Mecca pilgrims fall and are trampled to death. We only hear about single incidents involving more than a few pilgrims: more than 1400 dead (1990), 270 (1994), 118 (1998), 251 (2004), 364 (2006). Mecca is known as the largest pedestrian crowd (and problem) of the world. On a single day, up to 3,000,000 pilgrims want to throw 49 stones each at the devil (a piece of rock). This is (a) physically impossible and (b) still much less pilgrims than would have to come if each Muslim of the world comes to Mecca just once in her life. If each Muslim would really hajj once during his life the problem would be much worse.
Additional problems are that (a) the pilgrims mostly do not have a common language to communicate in case of problems and (b) are used from the home country to either left lane or right lane pedestrian movement.

SA has asked a German panic researcher what could be done. The obvious solutions that cannot be implemented for "religious reasons" (if one dares to speak of "reason" in that context):
1) Admit fewer pilgrims (the SA administration quarrels since more than a decade with the mullahs to allow lower upper limits to the number of pilgrims. But the mullahs insist upon a large number though they know (if they start to think about it) that even the high numbers are in violation of the hajj prescriptions.
(2) Admit symbolic acts instead of physical. So the stoning of the devil for instance could be done at several places in the Mecca valley and not only at one single place.
(3) Give the pilgrims time slots when they are admitted to the stoning of the devil and other bottleneck activities. As it is now, each pilgrim wants to stone the devil on the best day, the last day.
(4) Increase the number of hajj days (perhaps even all year) to decrease the number of pilgrims on a single day.

The panic researcher was not allowed to study the problem where it occurs. Only Muslims are allowed in Mecca. So they first had to find a Muslim who knew enough of the problem to be able to film the relevant bits and places. The researcher then studied the problem on films. The interesting result is that in the normal speed film, no pattern could be detected to predict a mass panic. In fast motion, a panic could be seen 20 minutes before it "started" (common motion of larger segments of the crowd like earthquake waves).

The less than optimal solutions (difficult enough to convince the mullahs) that can be implemented:
(1) No sellers of drink, food, religious paraphernalia at the narrow places (in the middle of the crowd). (convincing easy)
(2) Pedestrian one-way traffic in Mecca during the hajj. (convincing difficult though the Koran says nothing against one-way traffic)
(3) Make the places like stoning of the devil accessible to more people at the same time by using the third dimension. That is, the devil can be stoned not only from the ground but also from a 4 stories bridge near it. (they still look for a first class cleric to give a fatwa allowing the stoning also from the bridge and not only from the ground)

One of the biggest problems is the "mentality" of the believers during the hajj. Any person who dies during the hajj will be transfered immediately to paradise so they believe and that leads to a part of the pilgrims to actively seek places that are dangerous and increase the danger in case of a panic by going there in hope of the paradise.

If a cleric could convince the Muslims that nowadays this promise of paradise does not hold anymore that would be a big help but I don't expect that coming.

If only followers of a religion (any religion I mean from now on) could be convinced that a verbatim reading of religious prescription that once made sense in a far away time and culture should make place for a more symbolic reading adapted to modern times...


Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 10:38 PM

Brownie was in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 02:38 PM

Fionn - "At Mecca they behave like demented lunatics."

I have seen people behave like demented lunatics at many public events, including soccer. Whenever there is a pushing crowd and someone falls, there is a potential for disaster.

To link lunatics to Muslims or religious fanatics of any kind is very misleading. Its a stampede, plain and simple. No need to link it to religion or sports or concerts. Its a concern whenever a large crowd assembles. Remember the Beattles?

The next thing we know, the right to assemble will be taken away from people of all nations because as populations increase, crowd control becomes a major safety issue.

Why blame Muslims for being lunatics when this could happen at any large gathering?

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM

Why, oh why, can't the religions of the world agree that the fastest way to heaven is for their adherents to tumble into a big hole in the ground? Round here we still have a few disused mineshafts that could accommodate that kind of faith.

I notice that McG was comparing Hajj with the Notting Hill carnival a couple of years ago. Having been at the latter a few years ago when it was attracting a million people into some fairly narrow streets, I can't believe he intends the comparison to be serious. Even in years when carnival was blighted by violence, an overwhelming majority of participants were good humoured and behaved responsibly. At Mecca they behave like demented lunatics. It's like Khomeini's funeral, or one of those vast Baptist power pray-ins in the Bible belt. Everyone trying to outdo everyone else in crackpot hysterics.

People go on the Hajj knowing - perhaps hoping - they might die. Who are we to spoil their fun?

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:08 PM

Wolfgang, I suspect that the intensity of the emotion in the crowds and the fervent passion of the 'stoning' ritual actually encourages the tolerance of 'martyrdom' among the clerics. If deaths occur 'doing God's will', it is a small price to pay. (I don't know how a devout Muslim would express it, but there must be some correlation to snake-handling in some rural Christian churches and other situations where 'divine rapture' and self-flagellation are part of suffering in the name of religion.)

We 'reasonable' people simply cannot grasp what it is like to be that immersed in religious fervor....and I thank God.....ummmm....my lucky stars...ummmm..education, I guess, that I am not involved in that.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:26 AM

And the same stupid religious leaders as two years ago who insist that all changes that may be perceived to be in contradiction to an old book may not be made.

For years the government of SA has pleaded with the clergy to restrict the numbers of pilgrims just to be said "no way".

I always wonder why religions and religious leaders are so prone to disregard changing reality for too long. What was ok for 50,000 Bedouins and other tribes is no longer ok in achninging world. The Hajj has to be made by each Muslim able to pay the cost and physically able to do the journey once per life. Mekka hosts 2-2.5 Million pilgrims during the Hajj. Simple mathematics tells that the demand of the Koran is now, with roughly 1 Billion Muslim living, impossible to follow. But I had never the impressions that religious leaders were particularly good with numbers. They shy back from stating the obvious namely that one demand of the Koran is impossible to implement now for that clashes with the idea that each word in that book is literally true. They rather close their eyes to reality.

My god (no pun intended), it would be so easy: make a metaphorical interpretation of that demand, give the possibility to buy one free from that demand by giving money to the church, say that a visit by a family member is also good for all his brothers, sisters, children, cousins, open all year for the hajj. No, each year anew they turn down sensible proposals for change from the SA government in the name of a literal understanding of one particualr religion.

I'm so fed ap with them like I am fed up with the literalists of other religions. They disregard humans for the sake of a fixed idea. They are the guilty ones and in this particualr case the SA government is not to blame. They do what they are allowed to do by the clergy.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:24 AM

A powerful public address system could tell people to slow down and stop if a situation is nearing panic proportions.

but then again this is not mentioned in the Q'ran so it is probably against Islamic law.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 07:03 AM

There does seem to be a lack of basic crowd control in this case. Two major points stand out.

There was no one way, or other people management system.

People brought all of their luggage with them.

If the authorites were serious about preventing these big crushes, then they would address these as a start. They just say "Gods will", and kill a few hundred more of the faithful next year. It doesn't matter, as they'll go to heaven as they died on thr Hajj.

If this happened in the West, the organisers would be tried for manslaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:02 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:02 PM

"Saudi authorities had replaced the pillar, which had represented the devil in the past, with an oval wall with padding around the edges to protect the crush of pilgrims.

Saudi officials had also installed cameras and dispatched about 60,000 security personnel to monitor the crowds."

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 03:52 PM

*sigh*....more people every year in the same space. I guess if the authorities in charge AND the pilgrams all agree that they are taking their chances, and are willing to accept the danger, there's little more to say.

(we sure said enough last time!)

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 03:40 PM

This would not happen if everyone just stayed on their camels.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 03:30 PM

same event, same action, exactly the same place and the same regime in charge, having failed to learn from the mistakes of the previous times.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:57 PM

"MINA, Saudi Arabia (CNN) -- At least 345 people have been killed in a stampede during a symbolic stoning ritual at the annual Hajj pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia, according to the country's health ministry."



http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/12/hajj.stampede/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:50 AM

Two years later:

same event, same action, exactly the same place, just even more people killed.

Any football stadium which had a recurrence of the same type panic at the same narrow gate would be close for good.

Too many people at the same time at the same place. It will happen again if the number of pilgrims is not drastically reduced.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:55 PM

Happens at soccer games, too. I think it has to do with the dangers involved in gathering huge numbers of people, rather than the fact that these gatherings were for religious purposes. In a crowd, people are in a very vulnerable situation. A very small number of instigators can turn a wonderful event into a melee.
Woody Guthrie described one such event very powerfully: The 1913 Massacre. The crowd wasn't huge, but the dynamics were the same.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 11:23 AM

Maybe there's some sort of meme-Darwinism at work here.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 09:58 AM

More than 300 Hindu pilgrims reported trampled to death in India. In India too, mass panics at religious pilgrimages seem to be recurring incidents.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 02:02 PM

After consulting Google, 1971 Glasgow 66 spectators killed,-- 1985 Brussels 39 spectators killed,-- 1989 Sheffield, 96 spectators killed.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 01:49 PM

Dianavan, I remember in the early 1960s, over 60 people being trampled to death and this was at a football game in Glasgow, between Cetic and Rangers, also Hillsborough Sheffield, not sure of the numbers who died, 30? maybe, and in Belgium also at a football match between Liverpool and Juventus?, from memory 50?.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:06 AM

Leave God out of the Hajj carnage (Guardian)

After the battle of 1979, the Saudis responded to the extremist threat by handing responsibility for religious and moral affairs to the extremists. The mania that decision unleashed led two years ago to the witchfinders of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (the Saudi religious police) preventing a
fire from being put out at a girls school in Mecca because the girls were inappropriately dressed. Fifteen girls died and 50 others were injured.

The protestants in Germany have every couple of years their 'church day' which actually is rather a week long. Each time there are more people willing to attend to the final service held in a stadium than this stadium can hold. The latecomers (late bookers) have to stay outside. No problem. Everybody has the right to do what she wants, but not necessarily at a place and time of her own chosing.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 02:09 AM

I was in Rome, once and my catholic companion wanted to go see the Pope on Sunday morning. It was terrifying! Everyone was pushing and crowding. When the crowd moved, you had to move too. We were just one big wave of humanity. I might have enjoyed it more if it wasn't for that little nun who kept pushing me. The look on her face really scared me.

It can happen anywhere! It happened in Islam this time. They are not all fanatics.

The idea of pilgrimage is very old. It has been practiced by members of all religions. Please do not blame them simply because they are not of the same faith as you.

I'm glad I wasn't baptised. This way I have no particular axe to grind about anyone's religion.

d

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 12:42 PM

"The people in charge here are political leader, religious leaders, and the police." Precisely - and the Saudi regime has both political and religious authority, and controls the police.

And the pilgrims are the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 12:23 PM

The point I've been making is that they are the people in charge,
and that's where the buck stops. (McGrath)

That's our difference exactly in a nutshell: The people in charge here are political leader, religious leaders, and the police. I do not wear ideological blinkers that would prevent me from considering the responsibility of all of those.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 11:29 AM

I don't accept that distinction between pilgrimage cowds and demonstrations. Obviously there are differences, but in any excited or angry crowd there's always a potential for things going badly wrong, as emotions get high, and surging crowds are surging crowds, whatever the reason they are surging - politics, religion, or music.

And true enough, details vary from place to place - but the point is, the Haj isn't a one off, it's been happening regularly for a long long time, even with large numbers and there have been previous tragedies. The Saudi authorities - who are the religious authorities here as well as the political ones - have clearly failed to learn from them, not well enough to stop them happening again. And this is an extremely wealthy country, and the Haj brings in a lopt of extra money.

The number of people coming is large, but quite manageable, and predictable. There's no reason it should be any more liable to end regularly in tragedy than happens with huge pilgrimages in other religious traditions. The fact that the number of Haj pilgrims is larger than the normal population of Mecca might even have some advantages from the point of view of safety.

And as for numbers, the Saudi authorities control the airports and all ways of access to Mecca. The point I've been making is that they are the people in charge, and that's where the buck stops.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 11:27 AM

Huh? Do you really not know that the number of pilgrims is already restricted by national quota agreed upon by an Islamic Council since more than 10 years???

No. I didn't know that. What you probably don't know is that the news coverage of things like that is severely limited in this country (free and open media my foot), and I'm just now starting to learn about these things through the internet.

Do you consider them bigots for restricting the attendance? Or do you just consider me a bigot for thinking the already existing quota are too high?

No, I don't consider them bigots. Since it's an Islamic Council that is making those decisions and determining the quotas, it's Muslems making rules that effect other Muslims. You are not a Muslim (as far as I know). I would consider you to be practicing bigotry if you held Muslims to different standards than you hold people who are not Muslims.

Huh? Has it never happened to you you were not allowed to attend somewhere you'd had liked to be due to safety considerations? It has often happened to me in sports activities and at many other different occasion?

Actually, no. That has not ever happened to me.

If you had a point I fail to see it.

My point is that if people are going to be restricted in their activities due to safety considerations, every effort should be made to do it fairly, regardless of whether the activity is religious or non-religious in nature. The same standards should apply to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 11:05 AM

(It was awful. I could read this thread over the weekend, but I couldn't post to it: So here's now a belated response-post)

Richard (Mooman),
I'm less interested in the proximate causes of this tragedy (you have described a very probable scenario) than in the ultimate causes. I sometimes teach accident prevention in a course and I always try to point out that quite often latent system errors (management errors etc) contribute often as much to at least the consequences of an accident as the proximate cause (a slip of mind or body). The insistence of some Muslim religious leaders on a high number of Hajj pilgrims is not the cause of the single slip but is causal for the dimension of the tragedy. That was my only argument in all my posts here.

McGrath,
the fact that somewhere else between 1 and 2 Million people could demonstrate without a similar problem is completely irrelevant here for at least two reasons:
(1) the locations are different. That the Maracana Stadium can hold 200,000 spectators doesn't mean the Sheffield ground could as well. Mecca has about half the number of inhabitants as there are Hajj pilgrims. How big would a demonstration in London be if more than double of the London inhabitants came?
(2) You know as good as I one big difference between a pilgrimage and a demonstration: In a pilgrimage all people try to come physically close to one or more spots, in a demonstration most do not care about how close they come to a certain spot. The biggest anti-war demonstration I have ever been in had about 600,000 people and we all accepted that not everybody could be close to the speaker's platform.

Carol,
your 06 Feb 04 - 10:52 AM post doesn't even make remotely sense for me:
(1) So Wolfgang is saying that some people shouldn't be allowed to attend the Hajj because a couple of hundred out of 2 million might get killed (a tragedy to be sure). But if people aren't allowed to participate in this religious event because they might be killed, it is very much an act of bigotry.
Huh? Do you really not know that the number of pilgrims is already restricted by national quota agreed upon by an Islamic Council since more than 10 years??? Do you consider them bigots for restricting the attendance? Or do you just consider me a bigot for thinking the already existing quota are too high?
(2)Because we don't prohibit people from participating in other, non-religious activities that have an even greater chance of getting them killed, such as the various sports I mentioned above. If we restrict activities because of the risk of death, it needs to be something we do fairly, and we should not single out certain religions while ignoring equally dangerous non-religious activities.
Huh? Has it never happened to you you were not allowed to attend somewhere you'd had liked to be due to safety considerations? It has often happened to me in sports activities and at many other different occasion? If you had a point I fail to see it.

To whom it may concern,
(1) The time of the camel caravans is gone. At former times, the Hajj was a once in the life event (if at all). Now with cheap and quick travel and an increasing Muslim population worldwide, the problem has started. Up to 1950 the number of Hajj pilgrims was 100,000 and fairly constant over the years. In the mid 80s, the number for the first time surpassed 1,000,000. Soon after that, the first big accidents did occur. Since 1996, the number of pilgrims has surpassed the 2,000,000. The quota are constantly challenged by some more fanatical Muslim leaders. Some countries use them as a pressure against Saudi-Arabia (whatever you might say agaist that governmentin other questions, in the Hajj quota question they have a very good policy). Yes, I do think not every Muslim should be allowed to attend to the Hajj whenever (s)he wants but according to quota (but that's undisputed even among Muslims, except for the extremists).

(2) The focus of my critique never have been the individual pilgrims, as a careful reading of all my posts reveals. I do criticise some of the more extreme Muslim religious leaders for following a dangerous and inhumane politics here. These tragedies are for me not a natural consequences of Muslim beliefs but a consequence of the irrationality of some Muslim leaders. Criticising their decisions means as much criticising Muslim faith as criticising the Pope for his stance on contraception or criticising Protestant fundamentalists in the USA mena criticising the Christian faith.

(3 More generally, religions often out of tradition prescribe something which once made sense and was good, and now has lost all sense and is silly and even dangerous. I do not consider a ban against thinking thoughts of a certain kind is helpful here. There are too many left (and other)-wing thinking taboos already.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 07:50 PM

(Carol..truth and respect should not require 'kindness' *smile*--they should be given freely and openly. There was never any doubt in my mind about your motivation and sensitivity on the issue..)

both sides are 'right' about some things in the Israel/Palestinian issue...and both sides are very wrong about many, also. It's having like 2 kids fighting in the back seat and trying to figure out exactly who offended who first and who has the 'best' claim to the window seat. No answer will please everyone.

The only sane solution is to 'share and take turns'...who wants to bet on how that will work? It makes me very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 07:41 PM

Well said, McGrath. And thanks.

Martin Gibson, I'll defend anyone who needs defending. And that includes Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 07:27 PM

I've never read anything from Carol attacking Jews. Criticising Israel, that's a different matter. And it is a different matter.

And it should never be forgotten that while the violence of Palestinian terrorists is indeed a terrible thing, and in no way helps achieve justice for the people who have lived for so long in Palestine, far more Palestinians, including large numbers of children, have been killed by Israel, than the other way round.

That's virtually inevitable when one side in an intercommunal conflict has massive supplies of military hardware. And it is equally inevitable that the side without the hardware will throw up grotesque forms of reprisal.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 07:16 PM

Thanks Bill. That's mighty kind of you.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 06:50 PM

I have argued with Carol C. a bit here, Martin Gibson....but I also KNOW her, and I know better than that! She is a person who cares about people, and she simply disagrees with me on this point. YOU have thrown out an insult, not a reasoned point of discussion!

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:43 PM

More and more as I read these religious topics it becomes more and more apparent that Carol C. has a real problem with Jews and is constantly defending Moslems.

I won't hide anything. I have a problem with fanatic violent Moslems.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:23 PM

I've been sitting here thinking about what you said, Kevin, and if your main point is that it is bad 'taste' to bring up such issues when news of a tradedy is fresh and thoughts would better be directed to sympathy and sadness, then that is a different point than I saw being made earlier, and is even a laudable idea...

I do feel, however, that the post made by Murray McCloud (where HAS he gone, and what was his purpose in posting this?) already brings up the cultural/political issue very clearly in the last couple of paragraphs.
   The article Murray posted refers to the anger the pilgrams felt toward America and other 'enemies' and notes that part of the fervor that led to the tragedy was the desire to metaphorically 'stone' "The Great Satan".

I don't think I would have felt the urge to comment if the post had been merely a personal,sad note about a tragedy. As it is, my 1st post was #20, and followed several in which the tensions and animosities were already noted. And, my 2nd post made my basic point clear..it is not what happens, but where you place the responsibility, that is crucial to understanding the event.

But, I do suppose we have belabored the various positions until we all have had a say, hmmm? I can be convinced to let it go, as we don't all exactly interpret the issue the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:08 PM

My last post was in reference to Wolfgang's 06 Feb 04 - 05:36 AM post, Bill, as well as some of his other posts.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:54 PM

Of course I'm sure you aren't bigots, Bill D, or Wolfgang. But I think you are mistaken.   

The attitude that it is necessary to accept what has happened as being God's will in some sense is one you will find expressed by people from all religions, when faced with tragedy they can't understand. It doesn't imply that nothing should be done to change the circumstances which brought the tragedy about.

I am pretty certain that, if a similar disaster were to happen on a Catholic pilgrimage, religious leaders talking about it afterwards would say something similar; and they would also be certain to make some comment, about how being killed, while you were engaged in a religious pilgrimage, meant that you were dying in circumstances where your families could comfort themselves that you were well prepared for death.

And I have no doubt it'd be similar for other traditions.

Again, it's commonplace for it to be said that people who have died in a worthy cause have nothing to fear in any future life. Just read the kind of things that get written in memorial books and so forth.

Those aren't exclusively or especially Muslim attitudes and beliefs. The rhetoric varies between and within different religions, but at the core there is an enormous degree of commonality. (And many of the the attitudes are also evident in secular movements, though with obvious differences - "Che lives".)

Suicide bombings and so forth are not exclusively Muslim. Nor is it a phenomenon which first came to light among Muslims. You don't have many Tamil Tigers who are Muslim, for example. And there have been plenty of cases where Christians and others have been involved in military actions in which there was no realistic hope of survival -"suicide missions".

Again the Hunger Strikes in Northern Ireland took place in the context of imagery about death and sacrifice which were very Catholic, but to see Catholicism as the explanation of what happened then would be extremely misleading.

The same is true, I would suggest, when it comes to explaining suicide bombing and suicide terrorism in terms of it being some natural consequence of Muslim beliefs. That doesn't mean that isn't something worth discussing. But to do so in the context of a tragedy like this seems completely inappropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 01:46 PM

Since it seems to be my 'fault' that the discussion has turned this way--one more try.

there is nothing crazier about a "crowd of Muslims" than there is about a crowd of Punk Rockers in a 'mosh pit' or a crowd of soccer fans who are angry at the referee, or a crowd of women shoppers at a big sale...they ALL exhibit symptoms of mob behavior and bad things can happen.

No one has suggested...especially myself or Wolfgang...that simply being Muslim caused that tragedy, or that better logistics might have prevented the worst of it...OR that the organizers/managers/hosts would not have been pleased if it had all gone smoothly with NO accidents. OF COURSE they would rather no one died!

I seem to have pushed some buttons when I made a comment about the **ATTITUDE** voiced by a spokesman AFTERWARDS about the deaths. The **attitude** (and evidently, a rather widely held attitude/belief) is that "it was God's will. Caution isn't stronger than fate"!

Now, I ask..IF that, expressed by an official spokesman,(Saudi Haj minister, Mr Iyad Madani), is a common belief in the religion, then they 'seem' to be shrugging about the efficacy of better crowd control...(though I do not doubt that they'd rather NOT have the problems!) Now....why might they have this attitude? BECAUSE they seem to believe that death on the Haj is an honor and a blessing and that the victims are quickly taken to Paradise!
This aspect of the situation bothers me...why? In what OTHER context recently do we see the idea of "going directly to Paradise as a result of dying for the cause"? It matters only a little whether every Muslim takes that literally...MANY do, and many Muslim clerics do. THEREFORE, I said, I still say, and I defend saying.."this type of belief, in ANY religion, helps to promote and exacerbate conflicts by condoning behavior that sometimes affects me and my country...etc..etc."

Now...all the above rambling takes some careful reading to not mistake what I do and do NOT say about Islam and it's practices and whether I am bigoted, bewildered, mistaken or presumptuous!

It is not MY place to tell the organizers of the Haj what to do, nor to criticize the details of Muslim theology...and I never attempted to do either of those things. I suggested that the combination of attitudes I see evidenced in the situations cited warrants some careful consideration, as I suspect it sheds some light on the VERY real tensions and events in the world these days.

Once more...if anyone believes they see a flaw in my analysis, or has knowledge of facts which I am missing, I will be glad to listen. If anyone wants to suggest again that my comments represent a bigoted attitude and/or some basic condemnation of an entire culture/religion, I guess I have nothing else to say.

There is a Mosque on a road that I frequently travel here in Maryland, and if I saw attempts to harass or damage that place of worship or the attendees trying to enter, I would be among the first to protest and defend their rights.....but if I saw those worshippers acting in some way that endangered or harassed others, I would also rebuke them.

My credo? "Fair and impartial curmudgeonry for all!"

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 11:15 AM

Two million people isn't an unusual number to have at some big gathering. (There were that number and more on the London anti-war march in February, for example.) If the facilities aren't adequate, o there is some danger in the way the crowds are marshalled, it's up to the people in charge to make the better and improve the crowd management. A blanket "Reduce the numbers" doesn't seem to me the sensible way to deal with this.

What is coming across to me is an implication "this probably happened because there's something about a crowd of Muslims which is a bit crazy." And I think there's a duty to challenge that kind of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 10:52 AM

So Wolfgang is saying that some people shouldn't be allowed to attend the Hajj because a couple of hundred out of 2 million might get killed (a tragedy to be sure).

But if people aren't allowed to participate in this religious event because they might be killed, it is very much an act of bigotry. Because we don't prohibit people from participating in other, non-religious activities that have an even greater chance of getting them killed, such as the various sports I mentioned above. If we restrict activities because of the risk of death, it needs to be something we do fairly, and we should not single out certain religions while ignoring equally dangerous non-religious activities.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 07:39 AM

A-MEN to that, Moo. Sense and reason in the midst of a storm of bigoted bullshit. Yo' de Man!

Johnny
:0)

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: mooman
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 06:02 AM

My dear friend Wolfgang,

Somehow I think the religious bias to this thread is wrong which is why I tend to agree with Kevin.

My understanding of what happened here is that, initially, one pilgrim tripped and fell. Then, in their excitement to get to the pillar and throw stones at it, others then tripped over the first and so on until the tragedy happened.

Exactly the same kind of thing has happened with excited crowds elsewhere. The Hillsborough football stadium tragedy is aood example. The same thing could (but I hope will never) happen when 100s of thousands or millions of people throng the streets for some national celebration or visit.

To connect this specifically to religion, as some commentators have, seems to me to be irrelevant and has only allowed bigotry to flourish.

What is there then left but to express compassion for the victims and their families and to learn lessons in terms of preventing similar tragedies.

With very best personal regards,

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:36 AM

I'm glad I'm not living in a country in which the Christians proselytise.

McGrath, I'm sure you know as well as I that the China example doesn't really fit here. If at the same pop (or whatever) festival about each second year several people were killed (often more than a hundred, and once more than a thousand) then it would be a good case for comparison. You are just trying to defocus the discussion, for you dislike one line of inquiry.

Blaming the Saudi Arabian government here is very myopic. This government since many years has tried to do what the only rational solution is, namely to drastically reduce the number of pilgrims. This has led to several clashes with fanatic fundamentalists (in their own and in other countries). They have used this issue to put pressure on the SA government. Do you remember when in July 1987 more than 400 people died as a result of a serious riot started by Iranian pilgrims? That was the year when Saudia Arabia had first limited the number of Iranian pilgrims.

Only to blame a government when it isn't strong enough to take a good road of action (not in general, but in the Hajj case) against religious opposition, means to close the eyes to the obvious blame other groups have to bear. I personally have not the slightest inhibitions to partly blame also the respective churches and church leaders for things that are wrong in Ireland, Spain, Scotland, Germany, when I feel they contribute to the problem and not to its solution.

Like Bill, I shall criticise any religion when I think they deserve it. But in the case we are discussing here, people with one particular religion are to blame. Whether the blame is more on individual people who happen to have one particular faith or on the faith these people have is open to debate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 10:02 PM

quite true! The Muslims do allow that the Christians have a prophet for themselves, and do not care to be told that Jesus somehow outranks Mohammed, so they do not send missionaries to bother others. I truly give them points for that attitude. I wish Christians would STOP stirring up trouble with efforts to 'convert' the rest of the world. (Nearly lost a few in Afghanistan who snuck in under cover and started bible classes)

If every religion were as easy to get along with as the Quakers and Mennonites I have known, we wouldn't be having many of these debates.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 09:16 PM

I can't wait till the Lutherans break out and march for whatever their thing is.

Carefull, you infidels, Islam is the fastest growing belief on the planet. Watchout, Jehovah's Witnesses, they may get to the door before you with their new version of Watchtower..."Tower of Babel"

We had a couple of visits from Jehovah's Witnesses just this week. I've been proselytized by a lot of people; Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Hare Krishnas, all kinds of Protestent denominations, including the minister who conducted my mother's funeral, a Lutheran, who browbeat those of us in attendance for ten or fifteen minutes of the service in an attempt to get us to join his church, making my mother's funeral a lot more traumatic than it needed to be. I've been shunned by people because I wouldn't join their church. I've been told I was going to hell by people whose religion I wasn't a member of.

But, despite the fact that I've been around plenty of Muslims over the years, I've never been proselytized by any Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 05:27 PM

I don't have any compunction in blaming the Saudi Government, in the same way I wouldn't have any compunction in blaming the government of any country where they repeatedly had similar massive crowd disasters.

Being a government means having a responsibility to sort out things like this, and make sure that the immediate things that went wrong are rectified. And the Saudi regime is not just in charge of the government of the country in which Mecca is situated, they are very specifically "the guardian of the holy places", and as I understand it, that is the basis of their claim to authority in Arabia.

Obviously there could be all kinds of detailed reasons for things going wrong, but that is where the buck stops. As you yourself pointed out, Wolfgang, this kind of thing has happened before in Mecca. On their watch.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 05:11 PM

There an incompetent regime in power there, and they aren't doing things right, and they aren't learning their lessons from their mistakes. (McGrath)

You had not the slightest problem in blaming the Saudi Arabian government, McGrath, and you did not think one would need to have much more knowledte...than most of us have. But when others direct their scrutiny to other possible reasons, you object. An inquiry should not exclude one line of thinking right from the onset. That's all.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 04:57 PM

Here's another news story about a tragic crowd disaster, this time from China: Beijing festival crush kills at least 37.

Perhaps this happened because they were Taoists or Maoists...It couldn't possibly have happened because of some failure on the part of the people whose job it was to ensure safety in this kind of mass gathering.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 01:20 PM

"...and making out that it's the result of the flaws in the religion of the pilgrims..."

I am not 'exactly' sure, once again, if that is a direct reference to my comments, but it feels like it...so...

I did NOT...repeat...NOT claim that the tragedy was a result of "flaws in the religion"...(except insofar as I suspect ALL religion as proceding from understandable, but flawed, premises).. I said that I saw parallels between the attitude exhibited by 'some' adherents of that religion toward the tragedy, and other behavior of 'some' adherents of the religion. This worries me.

Now, I am given to understand that most mainstream adherents of the religion do not and would not move from 'acceptance of the deaths on a pilgramage' to 'seeking death to injure the enemy'. Fine!...but some do, and they do so with support and encouragement of 'some' clerical representatives of that religion! Let scholars bicker over whether Islam supports or does NOT support such behavior...it is simply my position that the issue needs examining, and I agree with Wolfgang that ALL human behavior is subject to 'critique'...(which I point out once more, is NOT necessarily the same thing as 'criticism'.)

It is easy enough to say, with no reference to religion, that we are against terrorism and violence and needless deaths, and will strive to seek out and eliminate those who seek to injure us....but that, by itself, ignores the fact that much of the strife in the world today, in places like Ireland and India, as well as the middle East, is being fueled by various religious claims and fervor, however misguided!

I am not a 'bigot'...I do not 'hate' any race, religion, or cultural entity ...I have put my life on the line defending minority rights, and would again in certain circumstances....but then I would reserve my right to note and comment on what I consider problems with the behavior of ANY group or sub-group who seem to exhibit a propensity toward violence and disdain for human life.

NONE of the above says that I am SURE what the precise problem is, or suggests that I have demands on a culture not my own.....and I am willing to be debated as to my analysis of the situation. I am not willing to be told that, as an 'outsider', I have no right to speculate and discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,'nuther guest
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 12:18 PM

brucie...thanks for the tutorial on cut 'n paste. Your simplicity made it workable even for a dufus like moi.

Sad for the hajj-pods. I can't wait till the Lutherans break out and march for whatever their thing is.

Carefull, you infidels, Islam is the fastest growing belief on the planet. Watchout, Jehovah's Witnesses, they may get to the door before you with their new version of Watchtower..."Tower of Babel"

Any word on my hero "Gadabout"?

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 12:18 PM

Scrutinising religions is one thing, though to do that usefully one would need to have much more knowledte of the religions involved than most of us have. Religion and culture are intertwined in all kinds of ways, and much of the time there's nonclear understanding of this, even among adherents of particular religions.

But jumping in, when there has been a horrible disaster during a pilgrimage, and making out that it's the result of the flaws in the religion of the pilgrims, is something quite other. It's only too reminiscent of the kind of sectarian intolerance which has disfigured all our histories. There is a secular variety of fundamentalism which can be as dangerous as any.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM

Well, if you're going to pass judgements, it's important to make sure you don't single out only certain groups for your judgement, as seems to be happening in this country. Because over here these days, Muslims are being singled out as scapegoats, and I think you know from your own country's experience what happens when people do that sort of thing. All religions should recieve equal scrutiny.

Of course, if you do that, most religions will say, "No, don't scrutinize us... you should only scrutinize all of the other religions."

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 08:03 AM

It's a slippery slope when people start making those kind of
value judgements about other people's religions.
...we ought to spend less time being judgemental of people's cultural differences...
I don't think any of us is entitled to make judgements about how others experience their own religion or spirituality. (Carol)

I rather think we should pass judgement about what other people do and should not let any argument like 'it is their faith' or 'it is their different culture' interfere with using our own thinking.

Whether it is the burning of so called witches, the female (and even the male) circumcision, the stoning of adulteresses, or (today report in our press) a presumed baby sacrifice in South America, I'll pass judgement about such practices.

What I am getting at is that we are not very intelligent if we simply accept everything our personal religion, if we have one, delivers to us...Some religious opinions are beautiful, moral enlightening, uplifting. Others are bizarre, crazy, socially dangerous, personally destructive (Steve Allen in 'Dumbth', one of his serious books).

Too often I see 'religion, faith, spirituality' used as an immunisation strategy against any kind of critique. Anything humans do is open to critique.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 07:59 AM

JESUS!! Remember him? He was a guy in the Middle East a coupla thousand years ago who preached COMPASSION, for murderers, prostitutes, scrotes of all kinds, as well as for the good guys.

244 perfectly innocent people DIED during an activity which, whilst non-Muslims (of which I'm one) may not understand it's allure, was a pilgrimage, an act of faith which in no way set out to cause harm to anyone (except Satan, of course).

For cryin' out loud, have some compassion!

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 08:49 PM

I am, basically, opposed...though I survived it myself. I do not presume I could convince Jewish families to stop the practice, and of course, it is MUCH safer these days with modern medical techniques. I did NOT have it done to my son, though if he decided to have it done to HIMSELF, I would *gulp* and hope it went ok. Even more than male circumcision, I am opposed to female circumcision, the basic purpose of which is usually to prevent pleasure...in the name of religious/cultural virtue!

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:53 PM

So, Bill, what's your opinion of male circumcision that is done for religious reasons, and that can and does cause babies to die from complications?

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:41 PM

but Carol...it WAS my point that there are members of other groups who do similar things, but that there are groups who NEVER seem to get into that mess. It is important to try to understand why!

and I simply did NOT "...single out a spiritual practice as being wrong... ", Nor do I disagree that " people get killed doing a lot of other dangerous things for reasons other than spiritual ones".

I will try once more...Lots of people ride motorcycles and consider it a 'lifestyle', if not a religion, but only a few belong to organized groups which turn the lifestyle into an abusive, dangerous set of practices which injure and offend the public in general. Similar examples could be outlined for soccer players/fans, and rock musicians/fans. And if the subject of the thread had been carnage at Rock concerts, I would point out that you seldom see drug overdoses and violence at folk festivals, and I would suggest that the culture & attitudes that drive and condone the violence in Rock needs to be examined! ...Why is it different just because the gathering is religious? I would not tell anyone what music they should listen to, what sport they should play, or what sort of vehicle they should ride, any more that I would tell anyone what to 'believe' in their spiritual life....but I cannot ignore tendencies to create dangerous situations in any of those. If the ONLY thing it affects is themselves, then I can shake my head and ignore it...SOME soccer violence and SOME motorcycle gangs..etc..do not confine their behavior to private parties, and the ATTITUDES that drive their behavior must be monitored and thought about. If Christian snake handlers were to start waving rattlesnakes about in the middle of Main Street, I would be concerned too. I am already concerned about the 'Christian' churches that condemn abortion so roundly that they condone violence to combat it....but THAT was not the subject of the thread. (And the Ku Klux Klan considers itself 'religious', too)

I do not, and DO not condemn the Hajj, insofar as it is a serious pilgramage to testify to a faith, I merely note that some human life is valued 'differently' in certain circumstances by certain clerics, and that this can and does carry over to other aspects of their faith.

(you see how complex it can be, trying to put it all into context? How many disclaimers and attempts at examples are needed to clarify?It is NOT a simple "this is none of your business" issue when I am trying to put the strangeness of the world today into context..)

I'll say this...if I didn't care about how we humans interact and understand each other, I sure would not use my feeble, slow typing skills to answer the points made here!

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:39 PM

Greek Orthodox? Well Orthodox Christians in the former Yugoslavia have a pretty horrific record in recent years (as have Catholics of course.) And at various times in Greece and Russia and so forth.

Mormons have some pretty nasty massacres in their history.

Quakers have a pretty good record generally. But Richard Nixon was some kind of Quaker.

Buddhists too have a good record in general. But there are exceptions, such as in Sri Lanka.

The thing is, violence is a human trait, and wherever we are, it is likely to crop up. And it can be channelled through pretty well any religious tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:01 PM

We do NOT seem to have groups of Buddists or Unitarians or Quakers or Greek Orthodox or LatterDay Saints preaching and/or engaging in violence or dismissing tragedy in the way some members of other groups do.

Maybe not the ones you mentioned, but it sure as hell isn't Muslims who are bombing abortion clinics in the US, and shooting doctors who perform abortions. And lets not forget the factions of Fundamentalism working with the US government, whose objective is to speed up the process of bringing about armageddon so they can hurry the second coming of Christ. And the people that moderate Jews call "Jewish Ayatollas" in Israel, like the Israeli terrorist who killed Yitzhak Rabin.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:50 PM

There is nothing repressive about people going on the Hajj. Muslims do it because it's an important part of their relationship to their religion. They do it because it's very, very important to them, as individuals. If you have no spiritual beliefs, maybe you won't be able to understan this. But to single out a spiritual practice as being wrong because some people die doing it, and to brush off the fact that people get killed doing a lot of other dangerous things for reasons other than spiritual ones, does indeed, smack of bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 03:49 PM

Thanks Brucie, Now I know how to cut and paste, and I only browsed through this Thread to read the various viewpoints, nice one John, you are certainly no racist

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 03:12 PM

More especially some of the further reaches of "Christianity" indeed..

....ok, then...I made what point there was to be made I guess...I'll go away now..

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 03:03 PM

There are some pretty weird and dangerous people operating in virtually all religious traditions. More especially some of the further reaches of "Christianity".

But I don't think the context of a tragedy like this is the right context for that kind of discussion. Once again, its too reminiscent of The Sun and the Hillsborough disaster, when it sounded off about football hooliganism, when that wasn't in fact in any way to blame for what hapened on that day.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:01 PM

how about combining those two ideas and suggesting that " it's directly to do with "a repressive variety of fundamentalism"", in Islamic beliefs? If the 'problem' is with a minority, fine...it is still a problem with a minority OF one group.

It all gets to be a matter of semantic construction after awhile...

I guess I have said what concerns me...I am not the one to see the solution, except in very general terms....I certainly do not intend to lobby the Islamic heirarchy! This is merely one of a number of concerned musings we in Mudcat never seem to tire of.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 01:45 PM

Repeated accidents likecthis do iondeed mean that there is something seriously wrong with the way things are organised, obviously. But seems likely to me that this is tied in with the very peculiar regime that is in charge in "Saudi" Arabia, a combination of a repressive variety of fundamentalism, and a corrupt family tyranny.

But suggesting that it's directly to do with Islamic beliefs is looking in the wrong direction.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 01:32 PM

I'm not sure I understand...is there an implicit suggestion in several posts that my attempt at some meta-anaylsis of the roots of this unfortunate tragedy smacks of bigotry? If so, it would be one of the very few times in my life that anyone who knows me suggested any such thing.

It is a far, FAR different thing to 'critique' (which is not the same thing as 'criticize') the aspects of a culture or religion that drive or condone certain behavior patterns, than to "make judgements about how others experience their own religion or spirituality."

We do NOT seem to have groups of Buddists or Unitarians or Quakers or Greek Orthodox or LatterDay Saints preaching and/or engaging in violence or dismissing tragedy in the way some members of other groups do. I don't feel like a bigot if I am curious about 'why'. I will always support and defend the right of any person(s) to believe and worship as they please, and to practice their religion in the ways of their choice,as long as it does not impinge on my life and safety! Crowds of people near Mecca do NOT directly affect me, but there are aspects of the belief that put them there that DO...even if only a minority distort those beliefs. In the case of Islam, there is a large enough minority misbehaving that it has caused concern all over the world...I *think* I observe some religious/cultural links between the tragic crowding deaths and the violence directed at OTHER cultures and religions. If you disagree with my analysis fine....if you claim that I do not have the right to think and comment, I must disagree.

What I would HOPE is that Muslim leaders would work within their religion to emphasize the good and positive and counter the unfortunate image that some of the events of the last few years has presented to the world. This could mean everything from simple "better crowd control" to NOT suggesting that tragedy is "the will of God".

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 11:01 AM

Well if we're going to just talk about the fact that people are getting killed, then, as I said before, we had better start taking a hard look at all of those other activities I mentioned before that are getting people killed. It doesn't matter if people are doing what they do for their spiritual beliefs or because they have an adrenalin addiction. Dead is dead.

This is just plain bigotry. Mooman, I'm sorry to say that bigotry towards Muslims is becoming the norm here in the US. And the really sad part is that the people doing it don't even notice they're doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 09:21 AM

This was a terrible accident

That is not the problem that bothers anyone here. The problem is that these 'accidents' are occuring too often at the same place and at the same time. The counteraction measures known to be effective (reduce the number of pilgrims) have been proposed by the Saudi-Arabian government many years ago but other countries and religious leaders have opposed this vehemently. After an accident in a football stadium, an inquiry would be made and a possible consequence might be to reduce the number of spectators. No one would listen to someone saying 'but it's my right to be there'.

I hate it when other people try to dictate to me what my spiritual beliefs should be.

I agree but that is not the problem. The problem are the actions coming from a belief. From my point of view anybody can believe what she wants but I would oppose some actions.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:47 AM

I agree with mooman, many of my freinds and workmates are muslims, none of them are suicide bombers or extremists, most muslims are just normal hardworking folks.
its a shame these people died, and lets hope saftey will be improved in future.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: mooman
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:43 AM

Agreed Kevin!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:38 AM

If this happened at Lourdes, or when the Pope was visiting some place and there was a big crowd, I suppose there'd be some bigots around who started sounding off about how fanatical these superstitious Catholics are. Rather in the same way when there was a big disaster at a football match at Hillsborough a few years ago, the crappy tabloid paper, The Sun, tried to say it was the fault of the Liverpool fans who were killed in the crush.

This was a terrible accident which appears to have happened because of rotten crowd safety procedures, not because the people killed were Muslim pilgrims.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: mooman
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:50 AM

I find it it somewhat depressing that what should be an expression of compassion for the unfortunate dead and their families seems to have been highjacked by some into a platform for the criticism of others beliefs. Many thousands if not millions of ordinary Muslims from dozens of countries aspire to go to the Hajj pilgrimage which is of course their right. I know very many Muslims and not a single one of thiose I know supports suicide bombing, murder or violence so emphasising such a connection because of a small minority of fanatics is not relevant or useful.

Then I'm just a naive Buddhist....

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 01:41 AM

7 more dead from injuries now.....I'm with Biil D on this one,kat.Fanatics of any stipe offend me, seriously. I am sorry for the families, but to be so fanatical as to feel you MUST do the Hajj...well, Oh well.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 01:15 AM

I hate it when other people try to dictate to me what my spiritual beliefs should be. And my spiritual beliefs are pretty weird by most people's standards. I don't think any of us is entitled to make judgements about how others experience their own religion or spirituality. Everyone's relationship to their God or their concept of divinity (if they have one) is between them and their God or their concept of divinity. Unless they're harming others, or breaking a law or something, it's just not any of your business.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:56 AM

just a point of clarity, from all of the reports I've read and the specials I've seen on tv, it is spelled "Hajj" with two "j"s.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM

I believe that there is a God. I believe that the deity, at times, asks me to do things that are not really sensible. I believe that God wanted me to share my booth with a wworld class motormouth two years ago at Pensic, even though she 1) Scared customers away. 2) Scared my friends away (Sorry Hollowfox!) and 3)Drove me round the bend.
Her baby had died of SIDS, 3 months before, and she needed some emotional support. Her husband, who is married to that specimen, needed even more emotional support.

I could never believe that God would ask me to pick up a rattlesnake, (or a garter snake for that matter! I don't do snakes!) Nor could I believe he wanted me to throw rocks at a pillar.

I'm working on the Howard Dean campaign. Dr. Dean asks me to hand out flyers, and donate to the campaign fund. If he asked me to throw a bomb at John Kerry, I'd quit the campaign.

God gave us the capacity for critical thinking. I think God wants us to use it.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:03 AM

Except for one problem, Bill. The concept of martyrdom, which, as we know is hardly unique to Islam, is not embraced in the context of a suicide bombing by the Q'uran or by most of the leaders of Islam. Most Islamic scholars will tell you that the Q'uran says quite the opposite of that.

Perhaps I shouldn't even have tried to toss that thought out without 2 days of editing....

Maybe you're right. I find that making broad generalizations about whole religions is usually a mistake. And in the climate of hate focused towards Muslims in this country right now, it doesn't seem wise to fan the flames.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 11:52 PM

if you read carefully, I did NOT suggest that the entire Muslim religion espouses violence...but it does have the concept of instant martyrdom spelled out, which, with hate added, is so very easy for the minority to twist into the sad forms we see. Yes, it is true that ANY major religion has tenets that can lead to serious misinterpretation and awkward situations....but this thread focused on one situation. I tried very hard to NOT simply point a finger and condemn, while pointing out some of the cultural and religious roots of the problem.

And if in the Haj, there continue to be a significant number who do not worry about a few tramplings because they believe those lucky folk go straight to Paradise, then I doubt the situation will change much soon. It was not ME who said "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will. Caution isn't stronger than fate" it was the Muslim spokesman!

It would be much easier to sit in a room and talk about the nuances of this issue, rather than to try to compose short, condensed opinions which are hard to phrase clearly....Perhaps I shouldn't even have tried to toss that thought out without 2 days of editing....

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 10:08 PM

Suicide bombing is sometimes practiced by Muslims, but it is also sometimes practiced by people who are not Muslims. Suicide bombing is most emphatically not a tenet of the Muslim faith. And most Muslims believe that if you kill yourself in that way, you won't go straight to heaven.

GUEST, 03 Feb 04 - 06:47 PM, my comparison was not about the victims who were killed, but about how the deaths of their loved ones will effect the family members who were left behind. And the comparison is apt, and not in the least banal.

The people who died in the Haj hurt no one. They were not practicing violence. The deaths were accidental. Bill D, to collectively paint the whole religion of Islam, practiced by many millions of people with the same broad brush you would use for a small few people who practice violence in the name of religion is really beneath you. And it's also not logical.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:39 PM

How to cut and paste.

Highlight what you want to cut. Then go to the edit thing at the top of your computer screen. Click copy. Minimize the screen. Open the place you want to paste to. Click your cursor where you want the stuff to be. Go to the edit thing and click paste. Bob's yer uncle.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:11 PM

This kind of thing happens when you have huge excited crowds, and some serious bit of bad organisation by the people whose job it is to keep things moving safely.

The numbers in Mecca are huge, and the level of excitement no doubt high - but then so are the numbers in Notting Hill during Carnival, for example, and so is the level of excitement.

When this kind of disaster happens in most places - for example the disasters that have taken place at football matches from time to time, the normal thing is for a proper examination of what went wrong, and a whole set of changes that means it won't happen again in the same way.

That's what seems different in Mecca. That doesn't seem to happen effectively. Putting blame on the victims, saying it's all down to these fanatical Muslims is crap. There an incompetent regime in power there, and they aren't doing things right, and they aren't learning their lessons from their mistakes. And sooner or later it will get overthrown by the people of Arabia, and by the people who take part in the Haj.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:47 PM

I was just about to say that too. So instead I will say that firefighters and police forces put themselves into danger to help protect others. The comparison is banal.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:42 PM

the very same cultural differences that allow them to 'accept' dieing on a pilgrimage as a 'gift' from God, also allows strapping explosives to themselves and killing others to 'defend' that God...

No, I know not all of them take the extreme view, but just the concept that you can go straight to Heaven in certain circumstances leads to some strange behavior....some of which affects ME negatively..and I decry ANY tenet of a religion that suggests others may suffer in the name of YOUR God.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 03:06 PM

From this site:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/02/international/02HAJJ.html?th

Many Muslims believe death on the hajj is a gift from God, which cleanses them of sin, and on Sunday the pilgrims continued their rituals, largely unfazed by the disaster.

When people serving in the US military, or firefighters, or police men and women get killed, sometimes their family members say someething like, "He/She died doing what he/she loved." And they derive comfort from that. I think the families of these people are probably feeling the same sort of thing about the death of their loved ones. They're probably very sad to lose them, but happy for them that they died in a way that they probably would have wanted to die. We're all going to die eventually. It's the lucky ones among us who die in a way that we would want to die.

My mother's death was that way. Cigarettes killed her. It was her choice to smoke. She died on Thanksgiving evening after spending the day surrounded by family (a rare occurance because we are geographically scattered). I think it's just the way she would have wanted to go.

So maybe we ought to spend less time being judgemental of people's cultural differences, and try to understand what's really important.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:14 PM

Like a lot of you above, my first thoughts were very uncharitable. Then I got around to thinking, "They were somebody's sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, whatever".

I don't like religious fanaticism, and religion's got a lot to answer for, but they were human beings. It's just sad.   :-(

Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 06:18 PM

One reads about this sort of thing from time to time. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with drugs or religious fanaticism. It happens when a crowd is trying to get somewhere & is so big that the people in the rear don't know what's happening in front. During W.W. II it happened in London when people were trying to shelter in Tube stations during air raids. Some years ago, IIRC, it happened at a rock concert in Cincinnati.

Whether it is God's will, I will leave to the people who believe in God. They used to say the same of plagues & fires, and some of them even denounced the impious ones who figured out how to prevent such disasters.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 05:49 PM

we don't have to *ban* anything...just lay off the sanctimonious nonsense about who is to be blamed or praised for the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 05:01 PM

...and then, of course, there's the matter of car, boat, motorcycle, dirt bike, and ATV racing, which kill a lot of people, and mountain climbing, downhill skiiing, sky-diving, bungee jumping, freebase jumping, and all sorts of extreme sports. Looks like we're going to have to ban all religion as well as a lot of sports. And we'll have to ban alcohol because of all of the innocent people who get killed by drunk drivers. Hoo, boy... we've got a lot of work to do.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,of 09:30 PM
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 02:12 PM

Good Bill D, my thoughts exactly. Those rattlesnake handlers are just as fanatical as the pilgrams over yonder...

"when the roll is called up yonder....when the roll is called up yonder" (will they really be there, up yonder, and all the faiths together, and how many Gods, what a mess?)

No doubting Thomas , but very sceptical.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 02:04 PM

"it was God's will" ...*sigh*...as I keep explaining to some folks who came knocking at the door, pushing their religion, I don't care to GO to a heaven where "God" thinks like that. I don't think they got my point.

I also shake my head in wonder when one survivor staggers out of a plane crash and announces, "God was with me.." I always wonder what the other 139 folks did to offend Him.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 11:16 AM

Maybe, Wolfgang. But there are things done by Christians and Jews with very deep religious convictions that also result in death. When Christian rattlesnake handlers get bitten by a rattlesnake and die, their fellow rattlesnake handlers say "it was God's will" It's a slippery slope when people start making those kind of value judgements about other people's religions.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 11:02 AM

Presumably as they all died on Hajj, they are even now, sitting in heaven, having taken the 'express route'. It is regretful that people have died, but the majority of their families will be proud of the fact that they died on Hajj, rather than sorry they undertook the pilgrimage.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 10:57 AM

Pilgrims also have been trampled to death on their way to the stoning ritual in 1994, 1998, 2001 and last year. (The Guardian)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,'nuther guest
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 10:45 AM

Just an observation. If these "sheet" heads had been working or at least playing at it, they would probably be alive now.

Tech question...how do you "CUT and PASTE"???

Thanks, Ig Norant

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,'nuther guest
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 10:41 AM

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 07:49 AM

Thanks for posting this, Murray. We recently watched a special on tv, PBS, I think, about a woman from Texas, a college professor, born and raised Anglo-Saxon American, who became Muslim in her adulthood. The program interviewed her and followed her as she went on this pilgrimage a few years ago. I didn't understand it, still don't, but her committment was real and it was obvious she truly believed in her faith. The whole show was quite interesting as it really showed the "nitty-gritty" of Hajj. It would be difficult to control so many with such fervent beliefs and needs to express them. From what we saw, the authorities really try to keep it safe and reasonable.

I agree with mooman, may they rest in peace.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 07:22 AM

I bet they didn't have a PEL.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 07:21 AM

Carol,

the comparison with a rock concert (or a sports event) doesn't fit really.

If at the same such event quite often many people would come to death, it would be stopped until the organisers would make a thorough reorganisation.

2001: 35 trampled to death (the last big panic in Mecca)
1990: 1427 dead in the worst panic so far

With such a record of panics no organiser here would get the o.k. for the next couple of years.

A correspondent said in German TV when asked why the number of people was not severely restricted, that the number of deaths due to the reoccuring panics is still small compared to the number of deaths that would result from Saudi-Arabia trying to prevent such a hugh number of Muslims to come.

When it comes to religion, people seldom do what is sensible.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 06:34 AM

The point of the 1st post is???? All I see is a cut and paste job from a news article.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 05:55 AM

Lets do betta...lets nuke mecca

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: mooman
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 04:05 AM

!!!?!

moo

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:30 PM

Of course, the evil great Satan US is always culpable in the eyes of those religious fanatics.

Good riddance!

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: MarkS
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:20 PM

Since one of the pilgrims was stoning a pillar labelled USA, I suppose America will now be responsible for the tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:10 PM

Oh, well that's different then.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 08:18 PM

The difference is the rockers would be stoned on drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:59 PM

Yeah, GUEST. It makes much more sense to for people to trample each other to death at rock concerts.

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:41 PM

Idiocy!

Subject: RE: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: mooman
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:32 PM

A very sad tragedy whatever one's own beliefs.

The Hajj appears to have become more organized over the years but with some 2,000,000 pilgrims converging, especially at this stage of the ritual, such accidents seem to crop up fairly frequently especially at the stoning phase where emotions run particularly high.

May they R.I.P.

Peace

moo

Subject: BS: 244 Pilgrims trampled to death
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM

244 Haj pilgrims trampled to death

Associated Press
MINA (Saudi Arabia), Feb. 1. — A stampede lasting 27 minutes during a stoning ritual in the last phase of the Haj pilgrimage here turned into one of the worst tragedies, killing 244 pilgrims.

A Saudi Haj ministry official said the tragedy took place in the morning at Jamarat Bridge, where an estimated two million pilgrims had gathered to hurl stones at pillars representing Satan or the devil.

TV channels quoted the Saudi Haj minister, Mr Iyad Madani, as having said that the number of those injured was same as of those killed. Last year, 14 pilgrims had been trampled to death during the ritual. Thirty-five pilgrims had died in 2002 180 in 1998.

Mr Madani said seven of those injured were in a critical condition. "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will. Caution isn't stronger than fate," he said. Most of the victims were pilgrims from inside the Saudi kingdom and many had not been authorised to participate. In order to control the massive crowd of around two million, Saudi authorities had set quotas for pilgrims from each country and also made their registration mandatory.

The "stoning of Satan" is the most animated ritual of the annual pilgrimage and often the most dangerous. Many pilgrims frantically throw rocks, shout insults or hurl their shoes at the pillars — acts that are supposed to demonstrate their disdain for the Devil.
Security forces and medical units immediately jumped to rescue operations, "which resulted in containing the pushing towards the pillar to prevent more pilgrims from falling," the state-run media quoted an unidentified Saudi interior ministry official as having said.

The annual Haj began on Thursday and climaxed on Saturday when around two million pilgrims listened to Saudi Arabia's top cleric Sheik Abdul Aziz al-Sheik, who denounced terrorists and called them an affront to Islam.

He, however, defended the kingdom's strict interpretation of the faith. "Is it holy war to shed Muslim blood? Is it holy war to shed the blood of non-Muslims given sanctuary in Muslim lands? Is it holy war to destroy the possession of Muslims?" Terrorists' actions give enemies an excuse to criticise Muslim nations, Al-Sheik said.
After the sleepless night of prayer following the sermon, pilgrims gathered pebbles to throw at the pillars. Each threw seven times, chanting bismillah (in the name of God) and Allahu Akbar (God is Great). Calling America "the greatest Satan", Youssef Omar from Egypt threw pebbles at a pillar on which someone had scrawled "USA".