BS: Sonofusion

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:40 PM

Actually you should feel like the guy from "It's A Wonderful Life" who also tried to get George Bailey to invest in his father's business that was doing plastics.

In this case though I don't see a great market. We'll have our petrochemical development that can be used for it and their also finding ways to use non-petro sources to create bio-degradable plastics. As cheap as plastic is I don't see it as something to base their entire economy on. I'm not making excuses for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Strick
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 12:58 PM

"Also, do we want to leave the middle east with nothing to trade with? Millions of poor muslims with nothing equals millions of jihadis."

I feel like that guy in the Graduate. One word: Plastics. The Middle East could become the major petrochemical center of the world. Since they wouldn't be producing raw crude to be refined and burned to power the world, they'd have enough raw material to last for a couple of centuries. All it would take is some wise investment.

And if, as I suspect, this new technology is going to be plant oriented like the existing utilities industry (i.e., you won't have a "Mr Fusion" powering your DeLorean), it won't be quite as disruptive as it might have been. You could have a reasonable transition to smaller, polution-free power plants that could be used to generate hydrogen and drive that part of the equation, too.

The new technology won't be without risks, however. It sounds like a fusion plant would be less dangerous than a fission plant, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you still have nuclear waste issues particularly when a plant has to be refubished or retired. You can't produce neutrons and various hydrogen isotopes without having some nasty side effects. Still, it's bound to be a lot less trouble than spent fuel rods.

All that assuming this isn't just another technological deadend, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:14 AM

WOlfgang,

Ideas, like music, can be shared and like music can be controlled.
I don't remember exactly when it was but I do recall during the late seventies the Isrealis claimed to have invented an engine that got 50 MPG. I can't state for sure that this was a legitimate claim or not but I do recall that the engine and the research was purchased by OPEC and the whole thing dissappeared.

My statement was also tongue in cheek. I'm afraid this discovery, if reproducable, will be railroaded out of existence. We've already seen how the current administration will use whatever scientists that can be bought to discredit whatever they please be it an environmental matter like global warming or an economic model. And if they can't discredit it with actual research then they'll use another road like stating that it emits too much heat or toxic gasses or some such thing. There is too much power tied up in fossil fuels for the kingpins to just let go.

I deal daily with corporations who are supposed to use the best available technology to deal with pollution control. Would it surprise you that no new advancements have been made since I began my career? Since their is no impetus for development because it might cost the corporations money, there is no development. How many times have we heard the chorus that environmental statutes would cost jobs? How about the jobs created in developing, implementing, maintaining and monitoring that equipment? I'm sure that if the same interests controlling the oil began investing in other technologies then they would be developed to be more efficient and cost effective. As it is they are not going to let go of their investment and the power it brings without a fight.

Also, do we want to leave the middle east with nothing to trade with? Millions of poor muslims with nothing equals millions of jihadis.

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 05:31 AM

I really don't know much about it except reading some half popular half technical accounts. What has happened? Not too much and a lot, depending upon how you view it. They have repeated a dubious experiment which has left colleagues highly sceptical under better controlled conditions and the dubious results have been corroborated leading the former doubtful colleagues to say they would not ignore it any longer.

At this point they stil have to put more energy into it than they get out. But if they are right, to reach the break even point is only a technical and no principal problem I'd say. The containing of the fusion is still the problem and for a long time the shielding will have be so big and energy consuming that the economical solution will demand big reactors serving not houses but towns. The disadvantages like vulnerability to catastrophes will be large. At this point in time I'd prefer hydrogen technology.

Chief Chaos, you are mixing up technology and basic science. As Strick says, if the basics are known and work there is no containing of these ideas possible. That's a myth. One particular technology or invention can be bought by a company and not used. But you cannot buy and let disappear findings in basic science. The papers and books are out there. If it is promising it will be done sooner or later.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 12:37 AM

It seems to me you would use something like this to power not a laptop but an entire house. That's my vision of the right scale for it.

Y=They've had waves of tough minded science types in to correct their experimental procedures befopre going to press with this, according to the blurbs, So it is possible this is the dark horse that lights up the next century. God knows it had to come from somewhere.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Strick
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 09:07 PM

Wow. They observed neutron and tritium production consistent with theoretically predicted levels?? I'm not going to use this to power my laptop any time soon. The shielding would be heavier than I'd like to carry through an airport.

I wonder if the results can be reproduced and what the output was.

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 07:31 PM

It's ultrasound, so it is less musical than a G chord for ordinary human purposes, but who knows what the spheres hear with?

Here's a review from the highly respected RensselaearPolytechnic guys with more on the stuff:

Click for paper

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 07:21 PM

Fascinating.
"...the new experiment, which cost less than $1 million, uses the power of sound to create energy comparable to the inside of stars."

Music of the spheres!

Allison

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 03:45 PM

We'll just hook up another sonofusion generator to power it of course!

If they can adjust the thing to run off the noise from boomcars we'll have it made!

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Strick
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 02:49 PM

Chief Chaos, I've thought the same thing, but I'm less cynical for more cynical reasons. What makes the world a little different is that I'd expect the Chinese to be prefectly delighted to use it to power factories and buses (or warships or fighter planes) and not give the West much chance to sit on the technology.

Fusion trumps the conservation of engery, of course, Amos, but you're absolutely right. If this turns out to be real, you still have to wonder if it can be made to produce more energy than it consumes along with all the lovely little engineering issues that are bound to come up.

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:53 PM

A googlesearch under the heading of "sonoluminescence" will reveal years and years of papers and observations about this phenomenon, but not yet developed into a workable application. This is the first time, however, I have seen a positive claim that the sonoluminescence is related to fusion. If it turns out to be true then we have a wonderful problem in thermodynamics on our hands because it appears to be energy production over unity. -- depending opn how much the ultrasounds costs in energy per joule produced by the fusion process.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:46 PM

This is very interesting, Strick. Thanks for posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sonofusion
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:35 PM

It will either be bought by OPEC or one of the other oil magnates or the discoverers and their notes will disappear into some black hole if it is proved. Too much money and power surround the fossil fuel industry to alow this to hit the market before their investments dry out.

Pardon my cynicism.

Subject: BS: Sonofusion
From: Strick
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:00 PM

Wow, is it possible that a small, relatively simple apparatus will replace oil as the source of all energy? (Note, I keep seeing this as "son-of-fusion", but I'm weird.)

New Desktop Fusion Claims Seem More Credible


Wanna bet there'll a completely new set of environmental problems if this turns out to be "Mr. Fusion" after all? If it becomes practical to produce a small device that's used to power all sorts of things with out having to connect to utilities or stop at a station to buy gasoline, what's likely to change? An old science fiction story I read postulated a small, polution free source of energy only to have it wreck the environment by becoming so popular that the millions of them raised the earth's temperature directly, by-passing green house gases. Just another way to screw up paradise.

Think of the economic and political implications. Hundreds of thousands unemployed in the US alone. It would be a temporary thing once the technology started creating new jobs, but would that matter to the unemployed? The Middle East taking a back seat again. Would they like that? First we pay too much attention, then we leave them to slip back into poverty.

Oh, the thinks you can think.