Origins: posies and roses

Subject: RE: Origins: posies and roses
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 04:56 PM

Quae is which, genus is kind (of thing), family, race, etc. Perhaps means there is nothing that can compare with your beauty. I agree with Malcolm on canducus; I can't find it in my Latin dictionaries.

Subject: RE: Origins: posies and roses
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 04:43 PM

"Candusus" may very well be a deliberate distortion of "caduceus", the serpent-twined rod of Hermes. "Quaegenus" may be another distortion made for the sake of rhyme, or perhaps something to the effect of "anything at all", but my Latin is very rusty. The other references are pretty straightforward, I think.

Subject: RE: Origins: posies and roses
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 04:08 PM

Hadn't looked at Malcolm's contribution before posting. Some of the poem is beyond all but the smallest part of an educated audience of the 18-19th c.

Subject: RE: Origins: posies and roses
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 03:55 PM

Any educated person in the 19th century would know Greek and Roman mythology. Since ar least WW2, schools have dropped classical education.
Look in a "Classical Dictionary" such as Wordworths, by Wm. Smith, available in cheap paperback at most large bookshops. Most will be in this book. Some, like Susannah, I think are biblical. Words like deluces refer to noble family emblems of heraldry. I have the books (crossword nut), but I'm too lazy to look them up.

The song has so many references that I think it is a tongue-in-cheek composition meant to befuddle students. Quaegenus and candusus are not even in the complete Oxford Dictionary.
Deluce is the lily flower, ensign of the Bourbons.
I think some of our English classics scholars at Mudcat could help.

Subject: RE: Origins: posies and roses
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 03:30 PM

They were Greek Gods and Goddesses.....Hector was the King of Troy.

Subject: RE: Origins: posies and roses
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 03:13 PM

The song seems to come from The Agreeable Surprise, a one-act comic opera written in 1781 by John O'Keefe, with music by Dr Samuel Arnold. The play was an adaptation of a piece by Marivaux, L'Heureux stratagème. Offhand I don't know where you'd find the music.

Heavy classical allusions of the kind seen in this song were very much used in the 18th century, and continued to be popular in Ireland long after they had dropped out of favour elsewhere. Any Classical Dictionary will provide details. Decent public libraries have them, and some are available online: there is one at http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/CGPrograms/Dict/ASP/OpenDictionary.asp, for example. Bear in mind that you may have to try alternative spellings for some words.

Subject: Origins: Posies and Roses
From: Fergie
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 02:19 PM

I found an old songbook called "Gems of Irish Song" and one of them is called;

"Posies and Rose"

Such beauties in view I can never praise too high
Nor Pallas's blue eye is brighter than thine
Nor fount of Susannah Nor Gold of fair Dana
Nor Moon of Diana so clearly can shine
Not beard of Silenus nor tresses of Venus
I swear by quaegenus with yours can compare
Not Hermes' candusus nor flower deluces
not all the nine Musses to me are so fair.

Chorus
What posies and roses to noses discloses
your breath all so sweet your breath all so sweet
to the tip of your lip as they trip
the bees lip honey sip
Like choice flip their Hybla forget.

When girls like you pass us I saddle Pergasus
and ride up Parnassus to Helicon's stream
Even that is a puddle where others may muddle
My nose let me fuddle in bowls of your cream
Old Jove the Great Hector may tipple his nectar
of gods the director may thunder above
I'd quaff off a full can as Baccus or Vulcan
Or Jove the old bull can to her that I love

Chorus


I love it, especially the line "My nose let me fuddle in bowls of your cream" I just want to be there. And some of the rhymes are outrageous "I'd quaff off a full can as Baccus or Vulcan" I can't say it without chuckling with mirth.
I need the tune and I need to know the meaning of some of the references and some of the words, can mudcatters help? I bet they can!

Who or what were Pallas, Silenus, quaegenus, Hermes, candusus, deluces, Hybla, Parnassus, Helcion's stream, the Great Hector?
Regards Fergus