new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:19 AM

It is not that the word "rope" was not used -- after all all lines are made of rope, and any line is a rope; but on a working ship, it is a line. Boltropes and topropes were not lines. They were ropes used, for example, to stiffen and strengthen the edge of canvas. It's a matter of function.

A

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:12 AM

Don't forget topropes.

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Heely
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:25 PM

We local Chantey singers often associated the "ropes" line to the residue of the sheets. When you have not secured your lines, they become ropes on the deck. They are unsecured sheets. "Coil them ropes -they're fore and aft" meant that the lines were still all over the deck and in need of tidying. A very dangerous situation on a deck in an active wind. Many a sailor has been tangled in the left over lines and launched to sea with a line around their ankle. ALways secure the deck. Heely

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:58 PM

And of course mates used to encourage new hands with vigorous applications of a rope's end.

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:11 AM

Don't forget the manropes, used when climbing up the side of a ship.

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:47 AM

It's useful that quite a few of you here 'know the ropes'.

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:29 PM

Actually, working sailors were considerably less fussy about terminology than are modern recreational sailors. "fourteen knots an hour could clip" is one example. AND--
there are, even with modern fussy usage, a few "ropes" on a sailing vessel. A bolt rope is one such (I'm trying to remember some others).

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM

Dana's dictionary of Nautical terms (1841-1851), as well as Lever's (1863-1870), speak of ropes in the definitions; e. g., "sheet is a rope used..., etc."
A search finds little use of the term 'line' by sailors of the 19th century.
I believe Strudelbag is corect. Chantey-singers and training schools are responsible for the current standardization upon 'line.'

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: GUEST,Strudelbag
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:33 PM

Despite Stan's testimony, the insistence that all (or nearly all) ropes on shipboard be called "lines" is, so far as I know, an arbitrary imposition by disciplinarians trying to instill seamanship in raw recruits in the marines as well as the navy. Trainees in both branches (at least in the United States) are indoctrinated with a number of such usages.

Any floor and even the ground must be called "the deck." Any stairway must be called a "ladder." Any hat or cap is a "cover." Any kitchen is a "galley". Any lavatory is a "head." And so on.

If you've experienced such training, it's easy to become doctrinaire yourself. But plenty of earlier sailing ship writers, including Joseph Conrad, Richard Henry Dana, Jack London, et al., used "rope" in their works.

Reminds me of some remarks by Conrad that only idiots, and not real sailors, spoke of "casting anchor." He insisted the proper term was "dropping anchor" or just plain "anchoring," since, except in the smallest boats, anchors are not literally "cast" or thrown anywhere.

The record shows, however, that in the generations before Conrad - and since - real shipmasters and other authorities frequently spoke of "casting anchor."

Another of Stan's sayings was, "Different ships, different long splices." In other words, it all depends.

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:18 PM

Keith-

There was a young lady from Bangor,
Who fell asleep while her ship lay at anchor;
She awoke with dismay,
When she heard the mate say,
"Boys, hoist up the top sheet and spanker.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:07 AM

The are to my knowledge two versions in print of the song Coldcord - refers to dolphin striker, and Whall - to rule britannia

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:58 AM

It might also be pointed out that on a working ship under weigh, lines did not get coiled much; they were hanked up and hung from a beaying pin at the rail, where even when swamped by green seas they would still be there when she surfaced and be to hand for working the rigging.

A

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:16 AM

A spanker, surely?

(Don't call me Shirley!)

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:13 AM

Stan Hugill used to say "there's only one ROPE on a ship and its attached to the bell" so what the second might be unless its a ropes-end used as a starter I'm not sure.

I think the "rule Brittania" might refer to a figurehead which tends to follow the dolphin-striker underwater in a heavy sea.

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:54 AM

"Ring-tail" is a good question. I had to look it up myself. It is apparently a triangular sail that is set for extra speed above the quadrangular "gaff" sail on the mizen or rear mast of an older sailing ship.

There are also modern versions of this sail which are on small separate masts or posts at the extreme end of a boats that are there primarily for stability rather than hard-drivin'.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Chris Seymour
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:54 AM

Thanks, Amos and EBarnacle. While I'm displaying MY lubberishness, what's a ring-tail?

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 12:51 AM

Chris:

Apologies -- what I said didn't strictly make sense. Dolphins like to skip and frolic on either side of the prow as a ship moves along, leaping across the bows in a playful way. So the downward projecting piece which enters the water first would often look like it was going to strike one of them, but of course they are much too quick and savvy to let that happen.

EBarnacle, I do not doubt what you say, but I have heard the purist argument about not calling them ropes repeated often; it was seen as lubberly. From your example this may not be a true convention. Kendall will need to enlighten us on what he meant if my surmise is mistaken.

A

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:52 PM

Lincoln Colcord, who spent a part of his early life at sea with his father and sister {Joanna Colcord} often referred to what we call lines as "ropes." His father, Lincoln A. Colcord, also did the same in writing. As Lincoln A. was a master mariner based in Searsport, Maine, at the turn of the previous century, I would be inclined to take his usage as authoritative.

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Chris Seymour
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:44 PM

Thanks, Amos, very helpful - and very quick, to boot.

Pardon my density, but why would the first-wet part be dubbed "dolphin striker" - just because it's wet/underwater it's going to be hitting sea life, and the dolphin was just a handy example of what the thing would hit?

Any illumination from others on those coiled ropes?

Subject: RE: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:38 PM

1. A glass that makes you cough just means it is strong on the booze.

2. The line about which there was a disagreement was "Coil your ropes, lads, fore and aft". The disagreement was due to the fact that on a sailing ship almost all "ropes" are termed "lines" or more specific names such as "downhauls" or "halyards". Kendall said there were two "ropes" on a sailing ship and neither of them would be likely to be coiled. I am not sure which those two are.

3. A dolphin striker is a wooden piece that projects downward from the prow under the bowspirit. It serves to tension the lines that secure the bowspirit, if I remember correctly. In any case it tends to get wet first, hence dolphin striker.

4. I have never heard a dolphin striker called a "Rule Brittania" but I wouldn't be surprised if a Yankee sailor would coin some expression like that to be disrespectful to the Brits. That had a long term ruction, you may recall, over various issues such as press-ganging, slavery, taxation, etc.

Hope these remarks help!

A

Subject: new query re: Boston Harbo[u]r
From: Chris Seymour
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:28 PM

I have several questions about the chantey "Boston Harbour," one of the few chanties of 18th century vintage, which has been recorded by Cliff Haslam and by the Watersons, among others.

The basic story is of a lazy captain who, when a big storm comes up, gives a few orders then retires to the comfort of his cabin. His crew, naturally, wish him in a watery grave. (It's in Digitrad. – click here .)

The questions:

1. When the captain goes below, he tells his steward to fix him "a glass that will make me cough." Why does the captain want to cough? To appear sick and justify being below? Who would know he was coughing anyway?

2. Before going below, he orders the crew to "tighten up your ropes, boys, fore and aft." A poster to another thread (click here to read) suggested this was not a properly nautical order, but I did not follow why not. Any explanation?

3. What's a "dolphin striker," why's it called that, and why would it be "plowing up the deep" in a storm? Dick Greenhaus posted an explanation – "a martingale… a jumper strut for the bowsprit," but, alas I'm not getting it, even after looking at a couple of online nautical dictionaries, which were a bit over this lubber's head. [click here for full post]

4. Instead of "dolphin striker," the Watersons sing "the Rule Brittania plowing up the deep." Is a "Rule Brittania another name for a dolphin striker. If so, why? If not, what is it?

Thanks for any answers or pushes toward helpful resources.