BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:52 PM

Well, he is an Arsenal fan. He would be...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 10:25 AM

A guy in our office has a theory that Bin Laden's alive and well and walking around London beardless, wearing Armani suits and Gucci shoes.

Stranger things have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:21 AM

dianavan, there are those who seriously believe that bin Laden IS caught and will be produced later this year in time for the election. We'll see. If he IS in custody, I should imagine it happened about 6 weeks ago in Pakistan when there was that well-publicized effort.

The part that amazes me- this is a most identifiable man, conspicuously tall, thin and if rumors prove out, sickly. Why hasn't he been fingered?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:55 AM

I don't think a global war serves anyone, not even Bin Laden. I'm not even sure Bin Laden has a long term objective. As far as I know, he may have acted on behalf of the Saudi and American oil interests so that Bush would have an excuse for invading Iraq. My guess is that he is more like a mercenary Muslim. Probably works for just about anyone if the price is right.

Of course we will never know since he hasn't been caught. Why do you think he was able to escape, anyway? In fact, the U.S. has let Bin Laden die a very quiet death. He's probably living the high life in Paris or Manhattan. In that sense, maybe the U.S. did give Bin Laden what he wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:26 AM

MAG said Oh, and yes Bush couldn't have played his hand worse. Once again "we" are the Ugly Americans. Bush certainly is an Ugly American.

A friend sent me the following link to a Rickie Lee Jones song written about Dubya called Ugly Man. It kind of grows on you.

Here are two more anti-Bush songs from that CD of hers:
Little Mysteries and Tell Somebody.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:57 AM

I did NOT say we shouldn't have retaliated for 9/11. I said that by retaliating the way Bush did he played right into Bin Laden's hands. He tossed Bin Laden right into the Briar Patch where he was right at home. What we ought to've done is have one of ours walk up to the man and just kill him---now that political assassination is also on the table as a seemingly accepted and valued weapon in this stupid and insane fucking world we are building for our youth to enjoy. I, for one, am glad to be old enough that I don't have to spend my youth dealing with these mad people decade after decade like we of the Viet Nam generation had to.

As I just said in another thread about "war", If a bee stings you, it is absolutely insane to get so damn angry you cannot see straight and start attacking every bee hive you can find with baseball bats. The result is what our troops are now facing in Iraq and whichever other country we choose to invade next. Now the draft has been brought up seriously yet again.

What's next? Are nukes seriously about to be put on the table as worthy of consideration

Well, why not?? We could get a whole lot of bees that way.

But bees, so I've heard, are like suicide bombers. Once they use their sting, that's all she wrote.


Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:14 AM

McG - absolutely right, I didn't mention Afghanistan or Iraq - but you DID quote my words and immediately begin discussing Iraq! Sorry if I've misunderstood, but you seemed to be quoting me in relation to Iraq, which was never my intention.

Marc - so I DID dream that the Yanks and Brits attempted to grab Bin Laden in Afghanistan? Or was it you who was sleeping? They would have had him too if those big-gob Yanks hadn't shot their mouths off about how they were tracking him by monitoring his mobile phone calls! Duh!

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:48 PM

Excellent link, Mark. How can anyone support Bush or think his involvement in the middle east is anything but self-serving.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:34 PM

Warning Very Graphic

These are the type of acts that the terrorists want. These people can not be taught democracy or accept a Christian Crusade in their country.

Mutilated Charred Bodies

Look at the uncut AP news report.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:32 PM

Maybe now there are Al Qaeda supporters in Baghdad, Doug - but there certainly weren't any under Saddam, and if there had been they'd have been targeting his regime.   But all the evidence is that most of the people fighting and blowing people up in Iraq are neither Al Qaeda nor Saddamites.

For retaliation ever to be justifiable it has to be against the right target. And it also has to be effective, in the sense that it actually weakens the organisation it is directed against. Lashing out at random because you have been hurt is no good in an individual, and it's no good in a nation.

The First World War started because of a vicious atrocity carried out by a terrorist organisation against the Austro-Hungarian Empire. But the retaliation that was seen as justified proved disastrous for the whole world, and completely derailed the 20th Century and turned it into a time of horrors.

..........................

Bin Laden wanting a global war? Depends on definitions. He has made it clear that what he hopes for, and expects, is that the Islamic World will come together in rejecting the type of world which is implicit in the "Western" system of government, economics and culture; and that this would involve a holy war against those things, and to extend his view of Islam ever more widely.

And he has also specifically said that war against Islamic forces will only serve to build support for them, and strengthen them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:00 PM

What evidence is there that bin Laden wanted a global war? Everyone has discussed this topic assuming that premise to be true. Does anyone have any evidence or even opinions as to why OBL would want that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:33 PM

So we should not have retaliated for 9/11, eh, Art. I couldn't disagree more.

Bush is taking the war to Ben Laden instead of waiting for Ben Laden to bring the war to us. Better the fighting go on in the streets of Bagdad, in my opinion, than the streets of New York.

If you think terrorists can be negotiated with, I'm afraid you have a serious case of wishful thinking. Would that it be so, but I just don't believe it.

I agree Ben Laden is getting just what he wanted, but I don't think he is going to like the end result.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:18 PM

PPS...In my opinion, Bush's telling a foreign ambassador about our war plans, especially an ambassador of a country whose citizens planned, financed, and carried out the worst attack on the US since 1941, is at least as likely to be an impeachable offense as lying about a blowjob.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:14 PM

PS...there's some interesting food for thought here. Now, I don't make any claims about this person or her motives, I'm just saying that if you read this you may find some provocative ideas about which you may apply your own critical thinking.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:59 PM

Johnny, I don't believe that our action in Afghanistan was "retaliation" for 9/11. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia , as is Osama Bin Laden. The Wahhabi sect of Islam, which is the official state religion of Saudi Arabia, is virulently anti-Western and anti-American. Remember that Princess Haifa, the wife of Prince Bandar, longstanding Saudi ambassador to the US, was found to have been sending money to a family in San Diego who helped fund and support two of the 9/11 hijackers. Besides, we get lots of oil from Saudi Arabia, and the Bush family has had close business ties for decades to the Bin Laden family (except for that ingrate Osama, of course.) And John Woodward's new book (the sources for which included Bush and Rumsfeld) reports that the same Prince Bandar was thoroughly briefed by Bush and Rumsfeld about the plans for attacking Iraq--before Colin Powell was told.

Afghanistan, on the other hand, posed two problems for the US and its interests. The Taliban had effectively shut down the lucrative opium trade, and had prevented the construction of an oil pipeline strongly favored by US businesses. Conveniently, Al Qaeda also had training camps there, and Osama Bin Laden was hiding out there. (Of course, he also might have been hiding out in Pakistan...but Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and they're our friends, so let's not go there.)

So, let's see, the attack on the US was led and run and financed by Saudis...but we retaliate against Afghanistan. Reminds me of the guy who drops his car keys near his car, but is looking for them under the lamppost, "because the light is better over here!"

Oh, yes, the opium trade is back in full force. I'm not sure about the pipeline, but I wouldn't bet against it.

Here's a question: How do you win a war on terrorism? Do you kill everyone who might bomb a train or a police station? Or do you just make them promise not to?

Here's another question: Would you rather have a President who's in bed with an intern, or a President who's in bed with leaders of global corporations and friends of international terrorists?

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:42 PM

You didn't mention either Iraq or Afghanistan, Strolling Johnny, and noone else had either. The rationale for the Afghanistan war in terms of hitting the supposed architects of September 11 is stronger than for Iraq, obviously, but how far it actually did much to actually weaken Al Qaida is pretty questionable.

I have a suspicion that the main purpose may well have been more to achieve the right kind of effect on the American public, rather than anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:24 PM

McG, I thought the retaliation to 9/11, the American attempt to grab Bin Laden and eliminate Al Qu'aeda, was the action in Afghanistan, or did I just dream that happened? I never mentioned Iraq!

I don't believe the Iraq action had anything to do with 9/11, whatever Dubya and B-Liar may say. It was always about oil.

Cheers,
Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 06:32 PM

..."the decision on how to respond to a violent attack's a difficult one isn't it - kick arses and risk, as you quite rightly say, fuelling the spark of revolution, or negotiate "...

Kicking the arses of people who had nothing whatever to do with the violent attack doesn't really make a lot of sense; and deciding not to do that shouldn't really have involved a very difficult decision.

It is possible that things in Iraq will end up with a freer society, and that all the dead civilians killed in the process will have died to achieve something good. Though it could well end up with a society that is even more repressive in some ways. "The wheel's still in spin..."

But so far as Al Qaida is concerned, the Iraq war has been a complete success - it's put them in a far stronger position than they were before, both in Iraq and elsewhere.

And even Afghanistan doesn't bear too much inspection. Some Al Qaida training and conference facilities have been destroyed, and some volunteers and allies killed or imprisoned - but large numbers of trained and indoctrinated members have been distributed to places where they can be much more effective and can pass on their training and indoctrination to a greatly increased number of potential recruits.

As for Afghanistan itself, outside Kabul the country appears to be in the hands of people who are every bit as repressive as the Taliban, but with an added element of corruption; and the production and export of hard drugs has sky-rocketed.

If Bin Laden isn't delighted at the way things have worked out so far, he must be a remarkably hard man to please. And if in the USA one of the effects is to get Bush elected in November, that'll be the cherry on the cake. "Four more years of things going our way will be guaranteed", that's what he'll be thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:25 PM

Warfare is diplomacy by other means. (Clauswitz)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 03:23 PM

Johnny,

You are quite correct also, and I agree with you. It is sad for us all that this seems to be spreading into a conflict that can and might erupt anywhere/everywhere. And strategically planned, as it might've been in Spain, it can drastically change the political picture.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:02 AM

Art, the decision on how to respond to a violent attack's a difficult one isn't it - kick arses and risk, as you quite rightly say, fuelling the spark of revolution, or negotiate (which often is synonymous in people's minds on 'both sides' with 'giving in') and risk every minority-interest group with a grievance seeing hi-jacking/bombing as the best means of getting their way.

Either way, the result looks about the same to me. I don't think it matters what 'we' do or don't do, thugs will always be thugs and they will always find an excuse to indulge themselves in thuggery. And how do you negotiate with multiple and disparate groups who appear (to me at any rate) to have no allegiances other than a mutual hatred of 'The West'? (No judgment there - they may well be justified in hating us).

I guess what I'm saying is that, although we can have our own views and put them out here, no-one truly has the definitive answer - too many unpredictable variables in the equation. I'd hate to be a politician at the best of times - can't do right for doing wrong - and I reckon whichever way they (the politicians) jump they're on a hiding to nothing in the present climate. Very sad.

Cheers,
Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:46 AM

Exactly right, Art. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 01:45 AM

The twister could be seen from our building heading east and following the Illinois River. Utica is six miles east of LaSalle-Peru. That's where it went.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: MAG
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 01:27 AM

Were you anywhere near the twister, Art? Someone on my children's lit discussion group linked us to a pretty impressive photo show.

Oh, and yes Bush couldn't have played his hand worse. Once again "we" are the Ugly Americans.

Subject: BS: Bush gave Bin Laden what he wanted.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:54 PM

I heard this said by a fellow on NPR and it rings mostly true from where I sit.

"George Bush has given Bin Laden exactly what he wanted. A global war."

I doubt Bin Laden knew that was what he wanted in the beginning, but it seems fairly clear that this is what is happening now. In trying to nip stuff in the bud rather than negotiate, Bush is ensuring the growth of the spark of revolution 9/11 fueled.

It's no cure for anything, just a small observation that seemed true to me. There must be a better way, and we have to be brave enough to search for it.

That's why, right now, I think tha "anyone but Bush" and his clan is the ONLY way to go.

Just a polemic the day after the tornado.

Art Thieme