BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 04:10 AM

I love Jackie Mason, Martin! I like you too. You both make me laugh:-) I don't think either of you are as funny as Ben Elton though.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 11:58 PM

Gee, I've missed a lot of excitement here.

I was fully aware that it was strange there were both pro-Bush signs and pro-UN signs in this situation.

So the neighbors are confused bigots. They're bigots nonetheless. It seems the Orthodox community might want to take this into consideration.

Don't worry about courageous "Martin" calling me names. I give everything he says all the respect it deserves, but unfortunately no more than that. Sorry if that disappoints him.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 09:54 PM

I respectfully disagree with you, BillH--the police may not decide what is protected speech and what isn't--they may take certain actions or refrain from taking certain actions based on what there understanding of the law is, but they can be, and often are, wrong--sometimes, they refrain from acting because, though the law may be violated, the prosecutors are not disposed to pursue any legal action--

The right to post signs in your yard is not an absolute right, and can be abridged for any number of reasons--there is precedent for the idea that if there is an element of harassment or racism, then it isn't protected speech--from what we have been told, there is evidence that this is the case--

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 09:51 PM

List of Yiddish Words and Expressions

http://www.pass.to/glossary/gloz1.htm#letg

"Goyishe kop - Opposite of Yiddishe kop. Generally used to indicate someone who is not particularly smart or shrewd. (Definitely offensive.)"

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:14 PM

Guest Howard. You are boring.

And you steal other people's lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: GUEST,Howard
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:07 PM

Martin would you like a top hat and cane to go with your tap dance?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:04 PM

They don't know jack, Zilch.

They are spinners also.

This thing is way to close to call.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:54 PM

Martin Gibson,

You might think the JTA is bullshit, but it's the wire service used by every major Jewish newspaper in North America.

Trust me, I'm part of the community.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:48 PM

Thank you McGrath!

It means nothing more than that!

Guest, Howard stained his underpants for virtually nothing.

But I get a feeling he walks around that way frequently.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:44 PM

The above link is from the Rockland Paper Rabbi Sol mentioned.

There is certainly bigotry in all communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:42 PM

I couldn't make this link into a clicky. Please note that the only overt antisemitism in any of the letters is expressed against Arabs.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=1057C9A9F5208F5B&p_docnum=1&p_theme=gannett&s_site=thejournalnews&p_product=WJNB

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:30 PM

"goyische kup" = "non-jewish mind".

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:27 PM

I wish everyone would stop calling me a moron and a bigot. There is a lot of anti-penguin prejudice going on here. All I said was that religious practice and the belief in a superior being defies rationality. I am neither papist nor Iranian. I am a British penguin and our head of state, Liz Windsor, has been chosen by God to govern us, evidently; although I think this is not quite so readily believed nowadays.

I must admit, I don't follow American politics that closely, but I understand that a lot of fundamentalist christians believe in the existance of the State of Israel as a prerequisite for the coming of the Lord. On the other hand, they also believe that unless Jews accept that Christ died on the cross for their sins, they will go straight to hell. So they are both pro-Israel and anti-semitic at the same time. Christians: Doncha just love 'em?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:15 PM

Are you still a religious bigot if you think all relligions are equally superstitious?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 06:50 PM

M.Ted: Your thoughts are truly kindhearted and idealistic. However, the authorities did just the right thing---the allowed the construction of the Succa and they also allowed---under 1st ammendment and property rights---the homeowners signs. The police are not, thankfully, the arbiters of what is or is not permitted under the law---they merely enforce it.

         You might look at my comments above---I do, however, agree with an earlier poster---so much to scroll up to---that said more details were needed before we claim bigotry and racism---were the neighbors informed, what was the intent of the neighbors, what was verbally exchanged between the parties, and so on. Damn---I am sounding like a lawyer---probably would have more $$$ if I were---but would have lost a lot of idealism.

         May I add, on a light note, Tom Paxton had a wonderful song---10 Million Lawyers and Other Disasters.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 06:30 PM

Before this gets dragged into another presidential politics thread, I just want to share my thoughts with Rabbi-Sol--I find this story very disturbing--I'd like to know more about it, but I do believe that the situation is what it appears to be--unfortunately.

I would have been surprised by something like this a few years ago, but things have changed, and small groups of people seem much more inclined to commit hate crimes than at any time since the Sixties--we are headed in the wrong direction, and I very much fear that things will get worse before they get better--

Given that, I think that the police were wrong --the intent and effect of the signs was to harass specific individuals and to intimidate their practice of religious rituals, and some of the signs were clearly anti-semitic--

I think that it is in the interests of the Orthodox Jewish Community at large to demand an investigation by the local Human Rights Commission--it is better to set everything out on the table where the community can address it, because ultimately, cooler heads will prevail--if things are allowed to stand, the hotheads will prevail--the family will be forced to move, and it will give incentive to othe and worse things--

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: GUEST,Howard
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 06:01 PM

Your response shows that goyishe kup is used as a perjorative to indicate thinking that is inherently faulty. The use of goyishe in that expression plus your using it to insult people you disagree with shows that you believe it's typical of the goyim to have faulty thinking. To you, people who are not Jewish are inherently inferior in the way they think to people who are Jewish. Your use of goyishe kup in this thread is form of religious bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:57 PM

It's bullshit, Alonzo.

trust me.

I'm part of the community.

dave the Gnome, sheesh, you would be lost at a Jackie Mason show.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:53 PM

Martin Gibson,

It seems I was wrong when I said "70+%." A check back to the article with the polling data, on which I based that statement, says it's actually 69%. Still, I was within the statistical margin of error used in scientific opinion polls.

JTA article on Jewish voting
intentions.

You ask me to breakdown the "various Jewish denominations" to which I refer. If you didn't understand that reference, it was to Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist and Reform. As I said, I do not have the data to provide a breakdown of of Bush or Kerry support among the specific denominations.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:51 PM

Fercryinoutloud, can't we all just get along?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:40 PM

I need to know what a goyishe kup is before I know how clueless one is! Is it anything like a thick Polak like me or more like a Papist (or Iranian) moron like Penguin Egg? C'mon, Martin! We all know your stereotype is supposed to be a cranky but harmless Jew -We need to know our place in gods big scheme as well;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:10 PM

And though there has always been a liberal vein in the Reform segment, which is the largest segment of the practicing Jewish population, there is definately some anomosity towards Bush, but Kerry isn't really turning on many. The Israel question of their safety looms large with us, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:03 PM

Jews have always voted traditionaly for the Democrats. It may be true that the majority of the Jewish population as a whole will be voting for Kerry. Whether it is as high as 70% I do not know. However, my remarks dealt specificly with ORTHODOX Jews as opposed to all the others. Our Orthodox Rabbis have been telling us from the pulpit for the past 2 months that we owe Pres. Bush our votes for another 4 year term. It is a matter of "Hakoras Hatov" which literally translated means "recognition of the good". It is actually an idiomatic expression which means "returning the favor". They preach that never in the history of this country has there been a President that has been so good to Israel. He did Israel the biggest favor by getting rid of Sadaam regardless of whether or not the war was justified. He also agrees with our religious convictions on sensitive issues such as abortion, gay rights, and tuition vouchers for parochial schools.
My own personal position of course is that Bush is an idiot and that Kerry is the much better man. But the majority of Orthodox Jews are going to tow the party line and vote as the Rabbis tell them to.

                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 04:10 PM

Easy, Guest Howard. Read Ron Davies last post for your answer.

Alonzo M. Zilch, on what facts and pure truth is your 70% based on?

Please break that down by the "various" denominations you speak of.

In any case, a support President Bush sign should be insulting to no one. Last I checked he was a viable candidate, the incumbant, in fact with an overall slight lead in the polls.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:37 PM

a) Most Orthodox Jews are supporting the re-election of George W. Bush, because he is percieved as the more pro Israel and more pro family values candidate than Kerry. Therefore if the neighbors thought that a "Support President George W. Bush" sign would be insulting to the couple, they are sorely mistaken.

I don't know the breakdown among the various Jewish denominations, but most Jews are NOT supporting Bush. Polls show that 70+% of Jewish voters are supporting Kerry.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: GUEST,Howard
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:36 PM

Ok, Martin, tell us. How clueless are most goyishe kup?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:31 PM

No, they are not, Guest, Howard the schmuck, I mean duck.

They are words that only a Yiddish expression can describe, that's all. And you have so much experience with that, don't you?

calling someone a goyishe kup hardly makes one a religious bigot, but accusing someone you don't know of such a thing does make you look like a total idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: GUEST,Howard
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:23 PM

Martin Gibson says,

"He's more clueless than most goyishe kup."

These are the words of a religious bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:23 PM

Fine answer to Ron Davies, Rabbi. He's more clueless than most goyishe kup.

Penquin Egg on the other hand is a total moron. Just his very name emulates from where he originated.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:08 PM

Penguin Egg,
             Which country do you live in, the Vatican or Iran ?

                                                 SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:05 PM

Ron Davies,
             Here is what is strange about those signs.

a) Most Orthodox Jews are supporting the re-election of George W. Bush, because he is percieved as the more pro Israel and more pro family values candidate than Kerry. Therefore if the neighbors thought that a "Support President George W. Bush" sign would be insulting to the couple, they are sorely mistaken.

b) If Jesus were alive today, I think that he would identify more with the couple than he would with the bigoted neighbors who are doing things in his name that are totally against what he preached (Love Thy Neighbor). Since he attended a Passover Seder (The Last Supper), I think that he would have eaten in a Succah as well.

c) As far as their support Palestine sign, I think that if they had Palestinian neighbors they would hate them even more than their Jewish ones. As far as the U.N. goes, can you imagine the one country that is actively engaged in genocide today, Sudan, being named as the chair-nation for Human Rights. It would be a laughable joke if people were not getting killed.

The only thing these neighbors showed by exhibiting these signs is their own ignorance.
                                             SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:27 AM

We should make a stand against all religious bigotry, although we should also remember that what religios people believe in, whatever their religion, -Christianity, Islam, Judaism, paganism- is mumbo-jumbo, hocus pocus claptrap that defies rationality. In my own country we even have a state religion that beleives in the most astonishing things. For example, they believe that their God sent his son down to Earth in order for him to die a painful death just so that God -who doesn't even exist, remember - can make a point! Some father! Where are the social services when you need them? We also have a head of state who is not chosen by the people but - get this! -chosen by God! Maybe he should choose again.

Listen to what Rabbi Sol said : "At morning prayers we Jews put on Tefillin (phylacteries in English). These are 2 black boxes containing passages from the scriptures that are written on parchment. One is strapped to the forearm and the other is strapped to the forehead." Now is this rational behaviour from a human being? Now answer me honestly? If there is a God, I can imagine him looking down and suppressing a smile.

Still, at least he is harmless. Christians and Muslims have sluaghtered millions of people through the ages to further the cause of their mad delusional beliefs. The Jews are as harmless (and cranky) as the Rastafarians.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:48 AM

:D I'm as cool as a cool thing that's very cool, Martin! So cool I could chill your beer. But Ridiulous? Shatner? Ridiculous! You realy know how to goad a person don't you. Well, a gnome anyway... Leave St. Bill alone;-)

This still sounds like a dispute between neighbours gone bad ways to me. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The more the religious or racial bigotry argument is used the less valid it becomes. Anyone who hides behind their race, creed or colour to try and get away with being an arsehole is worse than a bigot! We should all make a stand against bigotry but never forget that being in a persecuted group is not a ticket to misbehave:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 12:12 AM

The Rockland City neighbors had "Support President George W. Bush" signs. Not surprising. Those certainly are sterling citizens and true-blue Bush supporters. How about that, Martin?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: GUEST,paddymac, cookieless temporarily
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:50 PM

Religious bigotry exists wherever organized religions exist. Expression of it is more variable. I suspect that the underlying element is the seeming need of so many to validate their own group by denigrating the "others." Not a terribly enlightened variety of human thought, but it does seem to be widespread, and closely associated with closed minded religionists of most kinds.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:19 PM

OK, Dave.

Stay cool.

Try to step in between all of these at this point ridiculous Shatner threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 06:34 PM

Agreed, Martin. Just what I was trying to say. Both views are speculation. And again you are quite right, I have not experienced anti-semitism because I am not a semite! What I have experienced first hand is being called, spat at and punched because in the late 50's in a Salford catholic school you were not supposed to have a name like Polakow and you were not supposed to go to a Russian Church. I have experienced being subjected to hate and abuse because 'your family killed my grandad'. It is no good trying explain that Polakow is not a German name and it was the Poles that we went to help! I have experienced, in later life, my daughters of 11 at the time coming home from school in tears because they had the audacity to be twins! What did the teachers suggest? That they went to seperate classes and kept apart.

Is there legislation to protect the sons of Polish Immigrants? Are there laws to stop bigotry against twin children? I think not. I agree whole heartedly that discrimination of any form must stop and that the Jews have had a particularly hard time. But don't go crying bigotry for any reason or people will stop listening. And don't for one minute think that the Jews have the exclusive rights on persecution!

There, I feel a lot better having got that of my chest! I think I can sleep easier now that I know I have justified myself to Judge Martin;-) Don't go too hard on me for not being a Jew, eh? Or for trying to be fair to people that are not of the same faith???

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:46 PM

Great story, Rabbi.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:21 PM

Let me recount an experience of mine that took place in 1958 when I was just 16 years old. I was a freshman at Brooklyn College and was travelling down to Miami Beach during Spring break to visit my uncle. Being that I do not fly, I was travelling by train. This was the pre-Amtrak days so I was traveling coach on the Atlantic Coast Line RR. It was a 24 hour trip that started and finished in the late afternoon. In the morning, I had to say my prayers. At morning prayers we Jews put on Tefillin (phylacteries in English). These are 2 black boxes containing passages from the scriptures that are written on parchment. One is strapped to the forearm and the other is strapped to the forehead. I proceeded to don the Tefillin in full view of all the other passengers in the coach car. While I was praying, the porter, who happened to be an African American, started laughing and making fun of me in front of the other passengers. He said out loud, "Hey Jew boy, what are them 2 little funny black boxes you have on ?" Since I was not allowed to interrupt my prayers, I waited until I was finished and had put away my Tefillin. I then went over to him and addressed him out loud so that all the passengers could hear me. I said " Sir, 3000 years ago my ancestors were slaves in the land of Egypt. The Lord our God redeemed us from slavery and took us out of Egypt. In commemoration of this, God commanded us to wear this Tefillin when we pray, every day except for the Sabbath, so that we should never forget that we were slaves. Now I know of another people who were slaves right here in this country, less than 200 years ago and it seems that their descendants have already forgotten". P.S. The man apologized to me in front of all the passengers. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 04:51 PM

It was nice that you went to the neighbors and told them what you were going to do Rabbi Sol, but you shouldn't have to as was the case with this couple.

Dave the Gnome, your two ways view is speculation.

People unfortunately have a problem with Jews. People unfortunately have a problem with Muslims. Before 9/11 it was pretty much just a Jewish thing. You can talk like you know what anti-semitism is, but until you have really been there, and I'm not talking about what goes on in this forum, but "to your face" antisemitism, you better believe it is a good bet that it is practiced by the ignorant who are provoked because we are just there. Since 9/11, Muslims have been a target, also. But don't compare 3 years to 3000 years of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 03:02 PM

I suspect that the dumbass bigot neighbors may have been too stupid to even realize that the Succah was a Jewish thing. They *may* have been anti-anyone-different, not consicously anti-Semetic.

Incidentally, the word "antisemetism," while usually understood to mean prejudice against Jews and Judaism, has a slightly different literal meaning. Arabs as well as Jews are "semetic" peoples. Therefore, prejudice against Muslims/Arabs as well as against Jews -- which we would probably expect from this particular group of bad neighbors -- could be accurately described as "antisemetism."

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:54 PM

Wonderful story, Sol! I went to all the neighbors and told them what I was going to do and what the Succah symbolized to our religion Do we know if Meir and Lara did the same? Lets look at this is two ways.

1. Religious bigotry. Meir and Laura do everything right. They talk to their neighbours nicely. They take Sols advice and tell everyone what it is all about before they start. All is sweetness and light. Their neighbours are bigots and object most strongly. "Get out of our neighbourhood, Bastard Yid" shouts Joe 'Don' Bianco. "If you think you can come here with your f£$%ing heathen ways and take over our neighbourhood..."

2. Neigbourhood antagonism. Joe Bianco has been a law abiding citizen and always got on with Laura. Meir moves in. Joe is friendly enough to talk and finds out Meir is a construction contractor. Meir begins to build something in the back yard. "What's that?" asks Joe, out of interest. "Nothing to do with you." Answers Meir. "I have taken advice off Kim C and she says what I do in my own back yard is my own business!" "OK" says Joe "I do need to know though. Mind if call the building inspector?" "F$%^ you and your building inspector. This is religious persecution. I am going to take you to court for every penny you greasy mafia wop..."

Now then. Which account do we believe? I, for one, distrust both. (I should - I wrote them:-) ) I strongly suspect that something in the middle happened and some local hack has seen the opportunity to sell a few more rags on the back of the anti-semitism wagon.

Perhaps I am too cynical...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:31 PM

When I lived in Staten Island, N.Y., I was the only Jew on my block in a heavily Italian and Irish area. The day before I put up my Succah, I went to all the neighbors and told them what I was going to do and what the Succah symbolized to our religion. The next morning, 3 of my neighbors showed up unsolicited to help me with the construction project. Upon the conclusion of the holiday they showed up again to help me take it down. This went on for all 10 years that I lived there. Once, a 10 year old Italian kid threw a rock at my Succah while I was inside. The next day, I told my neighbors about it and the kid got the beating of his life from his own father. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:55 PM

"Support President George W. Bush" may be pretty offensive in itself, but does it really count as harassment in this kind of context?

Sounds to me that it's "foreignness" and brown skins these bigots are worried about, rather than Jewishness as such. Well-heeled racists are the worst sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM

Religious bigotry is always a disturbing thing to encounter, wherever it is encountered, whoever is practicing it, and whoever is being targeted by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:09 PM

Usually, Homeowners' Associations are formed early on, or maybe even before development of an area.

Now, assuming that the Association's rules were in place before the flagpole-owner bought, he's bound to them by contract. (Yes, I'm oversimplifying here, but it's more or less that way.) So the Association has rights in the physical appearance of the property which are not merely arbitrary, and are probably supportable in court.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:49 AM

Dave, since they were engaged in a building project related solely to their religion, that kinda sorta really does make it look like a religious issue. Of course, neighborhoods in the US have gotten so finicky anymore about who can put what in their own yard, it's possible the neighbors in questions might have done the same thing even if it were a nativity scene. I don't know. Either way, it's still rude.

We had an incident in Nashville several years ago in a community with a large Muslim population. A family had bought a goat for a celebration, and had killed it in the back yard and hung it from a tree. Now, they didn't know they weren't supposed to do this in the city limits. The neighbors had a fit and told the press they had slaughtered a pig in the yard, which was 1) not true and 2) an insult to a religion that doesn't eat pigs. They had to go to court over the whole thing, which I thought was silly. The family was having a religious celebration in THEIR OWN YARD. I felt really bad for them - I saw one of the Muslim women on TV, and she was in tears, just trying to explain what they were doing, here in the land of religious freedom.

Just after 9-11, a man in a hoity-toity subdivision in Franklin, just south of Nashville, put up a flagpole with a US flag, and was ordered by the homeowner's association to take it down, because flagpoles were not permitted by the association's charter.

Whatever happened to being able to do what you wanted on your own property? As long as my neighbor isn't building a brothel (which would be illegal in Tennessee), or sacrificing young virgins (which is illegal just about anywhere), he can build whatever he wants on his space, or grill whatever animal his religion calls for. It's none of my business.

Except I hope if he's roasting a goat, he'll invite me to dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:38 AM

...I believe politicians.

Never post without preef rooding.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:36 AM

Oh - and before anyone asks me to read the newspaper to aquaint myself with the facts please note that I beleive what I read in newspapers considerably less than I politicians...

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:24 AM

Not at all, Martin. Just very suspicious of being told what to believe without having studied the facts myself:-)

And sorry, Bill, there was nothing obvious in what Sol said that "Jews were singled out for this harassment". I have not heard from any source, other than the good Rabbis say so, that being Jewish was the sole cause of this unfortunate couples problems. I don't think heresay is any more proof here than it is in a court of law!

Can anyone show me that this is a purely Semetic issue? How do I know that Meir and Laura had not thrown their rubbish over the fence while building the Succah? Did Bianco complain only to receive threats of anti-semitic law suits?

Sorry, but we just don't know the facts here. If ever I become aquainted with the history of this case I will, as Sol asks, comment on it. Until then I am reserving judgement. I am not condemning anyone but I do take exception to the race card being played at every opportunity!

And yes, before anyone asks, I have been at the receiving end of both racial and religious bigotry. I know the difference between being punched because I went to a different church and had a foreign name and being punched because I was an arsehole. Both feel the same but one hurts a lot more...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:44 AM

It seems like Dave the Gnome just might be squirming.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:34 AM

Dave the Gnome...it seems obvious to ME that Jews were singled out for this harassment....those neighbors might have objected to Muslims, too, but there seems no doubt that "obvious Jewishness" is what set it off....I just question why WE need to rubber stamp the obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:13 AM

"comments please"....hmmm....well, the obvious comment is that bigotry will always be there and that it doesn't suprise me at all when it bubbles to the surface here & there, just like volcanos often expose the heat from inside the earth.

But my other comment is: Why did this example deserve a special thread on Mudcat? Unlike the other thread about possible choices to be made and resolution of zoning laws, this is just one more example of bad behavior among humans. If we go looking, we can find enough 'news' stories of this sort to totally fill this page.....(and stories of discrimination against Catholics, Muslims, Blacks, Chinese and Hippies with tie-dyed clothing, too!)

I am against discrimination by narrow minded bigots, and if I were in that neighborhood, I would make sure they all knew how stupid their behavior was, but I am also against excessive waving and pointing at every example you find....It's best to reserve your indignation for times when comments from a group like this might be really 'useful'....Unless you intend to print out this thread and tack it the bigots' doors, I don't see the relevance.

Sorry if that's not exactly the 'agreement' you were looking for, Sol......

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:12 AM

Do we know why the inspector was called? Do we know if the neighbours had asked the couple what they were doing and what the response was? In my experience people do not suddenly become hostile for no reason. Perhaps if the couple had told the neighbours what they were doing before they started to build the issue may not have arisen? Perhaps, as is usual in neighbour disputes, it is six of one and half a dozen of the other?

This is the second of Rabbi-Sols post regarding anti-semitism in the area during the last few days. I will make the same point here as I did in the other one. Just because Jews are involved does not make it a Semitic issue. How do we know that the neghbours were not antagonised in some other way? Remember that there are good and bad in all races, colours and creeds. Jewishness does not always equate to persecution I'm afraid. And playing martyred semite at every opportunity only demeans and weakens the cause of true equality.

I would not condemn the neighbours without hearing their side any more than I would support real bigotry in any form.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:03 AM

That makes me angry. Can you imagine how that man feels? Can you think of what message that is sending to the children?!??!!?

)(*&*(^$%$#^%$#(*^(&^#%&$@&^%)*^(*&%^#

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:55 AM

Well, my sister married a very jewish-looking jewish man, and when he showed up last month for a kids' something or other at school, the administration called in a terrorist alert and locked down the school. So religious and other bigotries are alive and well and living in Philadelphia PA as well, Rabbi!

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:36 AM

Isn't it really a tragedy that people don't take the time to talk to one another? If the neighbors had taken the time to talk to their new neighbor it's likely this would have never blown up into what it has. Rather than calling an inspector about the structure in the backyard, why not ask the neighbors what it was? The whole thing strikes me as both ridiculous and sad. People are so damn mean to one another.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:23 AM

The funny thing is that when Mr. Bianco was approached by the newspaper reporter, he took down the sign on his front lawn. He claimed that he did not put it up and was unaware that it was there or of who put it up. Having served on many juries, I do not believe him for an instant. He was aware enough to find out what was going on in his Jewish neighbor's backyard, so much so that he had a building inspector come down to check it out, yet he was unaware of what was going on on his own front lawn. The other neighbors proudly kept their signs up and refused to take them down. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:34 PM

Maybe it would be nice if people were to write some letters of support to Laura and Meir, or to the newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:28 PM

Mr. Joseph Bianco should mind his own business.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:14 PM

Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing... One's claim of Faith is not one's proof of Faith... Jesus's teaching's just haven't made it into many so called Christain churches...

Jesus would not only be ashamed of the neighbors behavior but also take them to task over it in a not so quiet manner...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 10:43 PM

Police right. Newspaper right. Neighbors jerks.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:09 PM

Sol, we both live in Rockland Cty, but, admittedly, I do not get the Journal News so had no knowledge of this.

What can one say---bigotry in any form is to be condemned. Sad that this couple have to live there and sadder that the once friendly neighbors turned nasty because of the appearance of the new spouse.

We ave had incidents by teen-agers in a local high school---the usual defacing things with swastikas.   The police took immediate action--though, sadly, the principal dragged his feet.

In the case you describe the town--seems to me--acted properly in allowing the building of the sukka and, unfortunately, the bigots were within in their rights to post political signs (even though we all know full well what they meant) on their own property.

Democracy works--you just have to live with some of the things that it allows because if it did not allow them it could be a much worse society.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:01 PM

This one almost defies comment, Sol; us Christians are supposed to be all about forgiveness, but a lot of us can take a lot of forgiving; I
sure hope some non-Jewish people in the community come forward in a much different way.

Subject: BS: Religious Bigotry In New Hempstead, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 08:50 PM

This story made the headlines in the Rockland Journal News a few days ago. As you may or may not know, Jews are now in the midst of a 7 day holiday called Succos (Tabernacles). We build a small Succah or hut with a bamboo roof in our backyard or on our deck. All our meals during the 7 days are eaten in the Succah rather than in the home. This is to commemorate the wandering of the Jews in the desert for 40 years between the Exodus from Egypt and the entry in to the Promised Land. Our forefathers lived in these temporary structures during all of those 40 years. With this background information at hand, here is the story.

A young Orthodox Jewish woman by the name of Laura Benshabat, who is also a cancer survivor, bought and moved into a house on Aron Court in the village of New Hempstead in Rockland County, the next town to where I live. Although there are many Orthodox Jews living in New Hempstead, she was the first Jew on this particular cul-de-sac block.
At first, she had good friendly relations with her neighbors. She then decided to get married. Her husband Meir, a construction contractor, was a very religious Jew with a long beard who dressed in traditional Hassidic garb (black hat, long black coat, etc.). The fact that he was a Jew of Yemenite extraction with a rather dark complexion did not help matters at all. The once friendly neighbors all of a sudden became hostile towards her. 3 days before the holiday, she and her husband started to build a Succah in their backyard. One of the neighbors, Mr. Joseph Bianco, called the buildings department and asked that an inspector be sent out. The inspector said that because the Succah was a temporary structure that would be taken down after the holiday, it was perfectly legal and no permit was required. It was not as if they were building an extension to the house for which they would have had to file plans. The neighbors however were not satisfied and ganged up mob style in an effort to stop the building. Laura had to call the police to protect her and her husband. A reporter and photographer from the Journal News showed up as well. The neighbors put up signs on their lawns which read as follows. "Support Palestine and The UN". Jesus is the One and Only God" and "Support President George W. Bush". The police said that the signs were legal because of Freedom Of Speech, even though the obvious intent was to harass the couple. The Journal News took pictures and ran the story on the front page. The next day they ran an Editorial strongly condemming these ignorant, bigoted and prejudiced neighbors, and saying that such behavior has no place in Rockland County. Your Comments Please.   SOL ZELLER