Origins: new music to ballads

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 11:23 AM

Chris Harvey and myself are recording the set of 35 Manchester Ballads collated by Roy Palmer and Harry Boardman. In many instances they have suggested tunes that might have been used where no tune was indicated on the ballad. There were a couple of instances where a tune was suggested on the original broadside but couldn't be found for the 1983 publication.

Further research from Chris has uncovered original tunes to "Calico Printer's Clerk" and "Telegraph Girls in Cannon Street" where the suggested tunes were the Halliard folk group tune for "Calico Printer's" and "The Girl I left Behind Me" for "Telegraph Girls". The tunes we've unearthed are much more interesting and those are the ones we'll be singing/playing.

There were also instances where the tune written in the set of Ballads didn't fit the words very well and I had to go back to a recording that Harry made for the Open University of "Manchester's Improving Daily" in order to get a version of the tune that would fit.

Whilst we intended these recordings to be a companion to the written Ballad collection, it became apparent after starting to work out arrangements that this will not be strictly the case but we're enjoying the experience. Hopefully this recording will be out in the new year sometime.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 10:45 AM

kytrad, thanks so much for your informative post.

The three traditional, yet very different, STYLES of Robertson, Strachan, and Ritchie go a long way toward defining 19th-20th Century trad singing in the English-speaking world.

Nobody's delivery is more lyrically intense than Jeanne Robertson's, more wryly personable than John Strachan's, or more subtly stoic than Jean Ritchie's.

Ewan MacColl was part trad singer and part "interpreter," and not everyone appreciates his sense of drama as much as I do. A. L. Lloyd had still less claim than MacColl to be "trad," but he could admirably communicate the highs and lows of a story.

The other singers I mentioned, outstanding performers in their own right,learned much of their ballad artistry from these greats.

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 09:04 PM

Many traditionalists HAVE changed lyrics, so i don't think adapting tunes for a lyric is uncommon...

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 08:46 PM

Long ago I used to think that our family ballad tunes were the real ones and, as I moved further out of the Kentucky mountains, thought that all those other ballad singers were just not singing them right!
At about fifteen years of age I discovered my Dad's cousin Jason Ritchie who lived in the next county. Jason was a great ballad singer, and wrote out all his best ones for me. When he'd sing them he often varied the tune between one singing and another- I'd ask him about it and he'd say, "Oh, when you want to sing something and can't recollect the tune, wy just get you another one. Makes no difference- the story gets told just the same."

Sometimes in his own tunes I would recognize one of Mom's Old Regular Baptist hymn-tunes. He readily admitted his source, saying that, well,you know the hymnwriters took most all their tunes from the ballads, anyway.

Another illustration of the flexibility of melodies for our songs was regarding the hymns themselves. The songleader (the only one having a songbook, with words only- no music) would look underneath the title of the song to see what metre was used (common, long, short, or combinations like 8s & lls, 6s & 5s,etc., and he would pick a tune to fit that metre. The first line he'd sing alone, and then folks would know what tune he was using- then, "line out" the words for all the subsequent lines as they went along.

I'm sure that church tunes often got changed and/or new tunes made up on the spot by a song leader who couldn't think of a suitable tune for the metre, and didn't want to keep people waiting. About the third verse they'd know the tune.

I love the old ballad melodies, but I have often made a few personal adaptations- because a note was too low or too high, or because I couldn't EXACTLY remember just how a half-line went. Little changes, but after awhile it changes the path of the tune, makes it my own. I have never felt this was wrong, especially if it's a traditional, public-domain song.

That brings another thought. Modern-day singers do the same thing with written, copyrighted pieces. It's a very different tune for my song, "The L&N Don't Stop Here Anymore," when Johnny Cash sings it, or Michelle Schocked- it gets all "ironed out," with most of the high and low notes moved towards the middle; more like a recitation, and Emmy Lou often sings the harmony as the melody, within a verse. Used to bother me, but I realize now that this always happens-a famous singer has to "do it My Way..." and sometimes it's an improvement I guess!

So- I'll agree. Do it your way, and be happy.

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 07:50 PM

Other great "modern" ballad singers (just a few): Martin Carthy, Martin Simpson, Jean Redpath, June Tabor, Frankie Armstrong, Isla St. Clair, Archie Fisher, Ewan MacColl, A. L. Lloyd. The last two pretty much started the British "ballad revival" of the 1950s.

For straight-out traditional performers, you can't beat Jeannie Robertson, John Strachan (both Scottish) and Jean Ritchie (American).

For some great "trad rock," try Steeleye Span (especially pre-1980 recordings) and Fairport Convention (especially when Dave Swarbrick was fiddler).

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: Analee
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 06:21 PM

Thank you all so much for your reply. It has been very useful to me.
Lately I have been listening to performers such as Kate Rusby, indeed, and Susan McKeown, Julie Murphy (two sisters!) and Dick Gaughan. I love Dick Gaughans voice and especially his interpretation of The bonny banks o' Fordie. Is wonder if his version is an original one?
Today I rehearsed with my new group for the first time. They are very good musicians and used to improvise on Irish tunes. Thanks to your messages I felt free to go along with them and sometimes played with the melodies and lyrics so they became more personal to me.
I am very curious as how this all will develop in the future.
Abby, I am indeed interested in the ballads that do not have a tune yet. How do I get in touch with you?
By the way, are all of you living in the US? It seems to me all these messages have been written while I was fast asleep….

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 03:23 PM

Kate Rusby does this all the time, and she's a star!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:37 PM

Just do it! You don't have to apologize to anybody for setting or even composing your own tunes.

If you want to be really conscientious, though, I'd recommend familiarizing yourself with the melodic idiom ("the tradition") hat usually goes with the ballads that are currently on CD, sung by outstanding singers. (Who are they? You probably have some idea already.)

If you write straight from a classical background, the results may be a bit odd. On the other hand, they could be revolutionary! Who can say?

The real point is to express yourself and your feelings about the songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 06:38 PM

It's true that Child didn't include many tunes. This was because he didn't know that many of these songs HAD surviving tunes; he worked from manuscript, not oral tradition. The collection to look at for tunes is Bertrand Bronson's The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads.

Having said that, most people who sing these songs do sometimes write or adapt tunes, and many use tunes written by previous folksingers. Few listeners would object.

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: Abby Sale
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 06:37 PM

Mary, your comment Child's collection cites very few tunes that were associated with the ballads. is true but the majority of them have known tunes that were available to Child had he been interested. (See the brand new Child from Loomis House.) Further, most have known tunes as recorded in Bronson (ie, 209 of the 305 ballads). There are a very few more with tunes found since Bronson.

Maybe 180 Child ballads have been recorded.

Analee, I agree with the above folk about just going ahead and writing your own tune. You could be honest and admit it when you sing or you could claim you found it in a library or learned it from your Scottish mother. Many have done just that.

Another good choice might be to set tunes to those Child ballads with no known tune. This might be a great public service. Such people as Ray Fisher (for "Willie's Lady") and Morris Blythman (for "Twa Corbies") have won great acclaim for just this and they didn't even write the tunes, themselves.

I'll send you the Child numbers, if you like. They're burried in some thread here at Mudcat as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 04:18 PM

I generally have loved the tunes that go with the old ballads. But, I have made up some tunes as well, that seem to work with the texts. No one has yet to throw their hands up in horror when I have sung them. Frogprince is right in that you should expect some people to like the old tune better. But as Mary Humphreys said, quite often, there weren't tunes collected for the ballads.

Ewan MacColl said in a sing out interview years ago, that the traditional ballads singers often adapted the tunes and words till it was comfortable in their mouths.

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:53 PM

Can't imagine much of anyone really taking offence or raising objection if you do what you enjoy with old traditionals, though. Old songs and melodies have been "mix and match" long before any of us came around. The worst anyone can do is say they liked the old tune better than yours, and that's their decision; bet someone will vote for the melody you wrote one of these days.

Subject: RE: Origins: new music to ballads
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:42 PM

Child's collection cites very few tunes that were associated with the ballads. If there is no tune, then why not compose one to fit? In my opinion it is much better to sing a ballad rather than recite it.
It is much less likely that you would need to compose a tune for one of the ballads that was collected by Sharp, as a tune would be there ready for the singing, along with the words.In fact, there are often more tunes than complete texts in Sharp's collection, so you are more likely to be looking to create a composite text than a tune.
I can understand the creative urge to compose, but I would suggest that you try out all the tunes that are available first before rejecting them in favour of your own. After all, if traditional tunes were OK for Haydn, Beethoven and Benjamin Britten just to name 3 composers who arranged English or Scottish folk songs, I think there may well be something to be said for the tunes themselves.
Mary

Subject: Origins: new music to ballads
From: Analee
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:08 PM

From childhood on I have been singing ballads written down by Child, Cecil Sharp and others. Lately I find myself composing new music to old ballad lyrics. Is performing my own music in public allowed, or am I breaking an ancient rule in folkmusic? This might seem a strange question but I am performer of classical music and it is not common to make alterations for example on a Mozart aria in a concert. I am looking forward to any answer.