Tech: Getting data off crashed computer

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 03:13 PM

pavane - I thought people who still run Win98 probably like opening cases and swapping drives and reinstalling OSs. They have to be masochists - or maybe closet 'NIX wannabes. (Or maybe just po' folk like the rest of us.)

(I hope it's obvious that's a joke.)

If you had a Point-to-Point setup that you knew how to use, like Laplink or another zero-modem method, it would obviously be easy to hookup to another computer (if there's one close enough). Any of the "simple" methods I've seen do require software, machine/port configuration settings, and a bunch of other "adjustments" that make them less simple in practice than in theory. You also have to learn to use the software that goes with the file transfer system you choose - and again the theory is simple but the practice can be a trial.

I tried Laplink (and a couple of similar ones) seriously back when DOS was the only world there was, and have looked at it a couple of times since when special needs popped up. It's okay when you have your systems up and running, and have nothing else available; but I had enough problems that I abandoned it and went back to sneaker net for critical transfers. I wouldn't recommend trying to install it on a crippled machine and trying to learn how to use it on critical (one copy only surviving) data, although it is an option for the brave (and/or foolish). IMHO.

I'd be more inclined to suggest zero-modem transfer to someone with current experience with DOS, or someone with UNIX/LINUX experience, but most Windows users who are forced into DOS are not well equipped to deal with it, or with most similar transfer schemes.

Assuming that the machine has a USB port, an external USB Hard Drive sounds like a simple option (and might be really handy later), but most such drives rely on Windows PnP for setup, and if Windows isn't up, you'd have to configure (at least install the right driver) manually to get one to run. Manual USB driver installation isn't too tough, but it's one of the easier places for people to screw things up.

Yanking the drive, or letting your techie do it for you, is really the simplest obvious option. We never know for sure what "secret tricks" people have on their own setups, so I won't discount other possibilities out of hand.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: pavane
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 10:39 AM

As the machine in question apparently boots up OK under DOS, isn't there a DOS network program, or even something like the old Laplink, which could easily copy the files onto another machine?

Saves any messing about with opening cases and removing drives.

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 08:20 AM

I haven't tried it on a compressed drive - but when my 5 yearold HDD failed (OS mostly) the Slave wheeze (with jumpers set correctly) did the job. But compressed drives? Fine if the headers (keys or whatever) are not corrupt. I have used Norton Disk Doctor but not on compressed drives. It saved one file.

Now ask yerself - FAT16 Fat32 (or unlikely NTFS) - you need to know.
reloading the OS on a new HDD - don't try anything that wouldn't have been there before - if you can remember or figure it out.

And if timely lessons are in order what happened to those regular back-ups? I use 2 HDD and a removable now. and DVD re-writers are so cheap if your set-up can take one.

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 07:55 AM

If you are worried about opening a working PC up to install the drive as a slave you can buy a USB connected housing instead and just plug it in.

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 07:14 AM

Since you can apparently run the drive in DOS, the safest method would probably be to take the hard drive (or the whole computer) to a computer repair person (or capable faithful friend) and have them slave the drive on a working machine and make a CD or two of the data before you try to do a lot with reinstalling the OS.

Attempting to backup your files to floppies using DOS may not be completely successful because of the filename length problem mentioned above. On a compressed drive, DOS will simply ignore files for which the total path+filename length exceeds the 66 character limit, so you may not see them all when looking for files to copy.

To see whether this is a problem, you can run ScanDisk (excuse my error when I said ChkDisk above - see the linked article) with the "automatically correct errors" box UNCHECKED. ScanDisk should stop and tell you if an excessively long pathname is found. Make a note of it and click ignore to look for the next one. You should be able to copy a folder a little higher up in your data structure to shorten the path so that everything becomes visible.

If you have the open connectors for it, you could hook up another hard drive as a slave in your machine and do a DOS copy of your files to the new drive, but the same namelength limit applies, so you might not get everything you want using DOS if you don't check the names first.

If you can slave the drive to a machine running a working Windows OS, the namelength isn't a problem, and it should be simple to get everything backed up to a CD or two. The normal limit for partition size in Win98 is 2GB, and a data CD will hold about 700MB, so you shouldn't need more than 3 CDs (per partition) if you copy everything.

While it's not normally a problem for data files, you should be aware that "legal names" for CD files are slightly different than what's legal for Windows/DOS, so a few files may get slightly different names on the CDs. If you've saved any "web pages" that have separate folders for included files, they probably won't work after being burned to CDs unless you open them in a browser and "Save As" with a SHORT, legal, Joliet filename (No "," or "-" mainly) and then burn the shortname version. If you have (unlikely?) things like Word or Project documents that link to external files you may find broken links in the CD versions if a filename gets changed.

Don't forget to save email and address books, and be sure to tell the service person (preferably in written instructions) about any "unusual" programs you have that make files with strange extensions if you want them backed up.

There should be little risk to existing data in reinstalling Win98, but no guarantees can be made and backup is recommended. This recommendation is often ignored. Assuming that you have a Win98 installation CD, you should look for the Setup.txt file in the Windows98 folder on your own CD. The setup.txt file linked above gives help on getting your CD drive up in DOS if that's a problem. (Look for "INSTALLING WINDOWS 98 FROM MS-DOS").

You may need to clear some space on your drive for the reinstall. Exactly how much is a little ambiguous. You could need up to 355 MB free, but since the reinstall will replace many existing files you can probably get by with a lot less for a reinstall. If you can get setup.exe launched, it will tell you pretty quickly - before any damage is done - if you don't have enough space.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: MaineDog
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 08:17 PM

If the disk drive is not working, the above methods will fail. In that case, you may still find some help here:

http://www.ontrack.com/

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 06:28 PM

You may find some help at Microsoft Advanced Search. Selecting product "Windows 98" and using "Compressed Drive" as a search string brought up quite a lot of stuff. Sort of a nostalgia trip remembering how crude Win98 was/is.

You didn't say what compression method you used, but if it's the "Drivespace" or "Doublespace" compression that's built in for Win95 and Win98 it would appear that the compressed drive shouldn't prevent you from reinstalling Win98. If you used an aftermarket drive compression the situation may be a little more ambiguous.

With product "Windows 98" and search "Compressed Drive Reinstall" at the above link I find:
Windows 98 Setup.txt File: Article 179756 which is the same file that should be on Win98 standard edition install/setup disks. The file on your disks may be a little different if you have Win98SE, but shouldn't differ too significantly on the problems you have.

This is a rather long document, mostly dealing with how to update from Win95; but if you scroll down far enough in the above file, to "IF YOU HAVE A COMPRESSED DRIVE" there are several problems that can be encountered, but there seem to be fixes or workarounds for most of them. The biggest problem appears to be lack of sufficient space on a compressed drive, but moving enough stuff to make the required space should be a lot easier than backing off everything. Ideally, if you have an uncompressed partition you should install there, but you should be able to install on your C:\ drive if you can make enough space.

Three problems that you may have to work around that I don't see in this file:

1. Compressing your hard drive, or converting to FAT32, usually removes the Win98 uninstall files, so your removal may have caused some unpredictable effects.

2. If the drive was compressed by Win95, and you upgraded, there will likely be a couple of "obsolete" compression drivers in C:\ root. Win98 creates new drvspace.bin and dblspace.bin files in C:\Command, and only the new ones are updated. If you make a startup disk, it will probably copy the old ones from C:\. You just need to copy the "good" ones from C:\Command to C:\ and make a new startup disk. Look at Err Msg: The Compression Driver Cannot Be Set Up Correctly: Article 187218 for info on this.

3. The drive compression is a DOS program and can only "read" files for which the total file length plus path is less than 66 characters. Windows can use longer ones, so you may have some. If you're trying to install in DOS, you may need to "shorten some paths." Err Msg: Drive C Contains Errors That Must Be Corrected: Article 132883 gives details on how to use ChkDisk to get this done.

Before you get done, you may want to refer to Troubleshooting DriveSpace in Windows 95: Article 133175. Although the article says it applies only to Win95, the link that found it for me, in How to Determine If a Hard Disk Is Compressed: Article 193051 says that it also applies to Win98.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:58 PM

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: s&r
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:54 PM

Carol

Yes

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:51 PM

remove the hard drive and install temporarily in working 2nd pc as slave. Same idea

We have a PC with a non-operational motherboard, and data we want to retreive from it. I suppose this method would work for us as well?

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:43 PM

Oh, you don't know how relieved I am that there is a possible fix..... all my songs and all our pictures are in that machine.....

I may just go back to film cameras and a typewriter!

LTS

Oh, and Manitas is a computer programmer, but I wouldn't say he's technically minded!

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: KateG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:05 PM

If you're not technically minded, you can get a computer repair place to do this for you fairly cheaply. If you know which folders have the critical data, they can download those onto CD's for you by slaving your hard drive to their system...and they'll run the files through a virus check. Then you can use your system restore disks to wipe, reformat and reload your system. Slow but it works.

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: nutty
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:58 PM

There is a program called Isobuster (free download) that can access file on corrupt discs but I'm not sure if it would help in your case.

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 11:11 AM

Note: The jumper pins on the end of the drive determine master/slave status. Directions are on the drive case. In the future, consider keeping all data on a separate partition from the operating system. That way, if you need to re-install, the data is safe. Even if you upgrade. The XP people say it's unnecessary. If they're only wrong once, you know it'll be you.

PS Try not to touch the exposed circuits and ground yourself by frequently touching the case metal. This is the static season.

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 08:26 AM

What s&r said.

OR

remove the hard drive and install temporarily in working 2nd pc as slave. Same idea

Subject: RE: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: s&r
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:23 AM

Fit a new hard drive as C and connect the old drive as a slave. Install your OS on the new drive, and you should find your files are accessible.

Stu

Subject: Tech: Getting data off crashed computer
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:12 AM

Our old pc crashed last week with a corrupt os (Win98). I can run DOS on it but cannot reload Windows because it was using compressed disks. We have a lot of data that we need to get off and it looks as if I will be spending hours with floppy discs unless anyone can suggest a better way. It has a HP cd rewriter but I can't use it without Windows. Any suggestions?