BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:01 PM

To a great extent, politicians in this country are what we made them, and what we allow them to be.

I did not agree with his position on the war, but I respected Howard Dean and he almost single handedly gave the Democratic party its backbone in the election just past. I have liked listening to his interview on Fresh Air.

As for our politicians, they really run the gamut. Pretty much everyone respects John McCain. I think Tom Delay is a low form of life. Karl Rove is a great example of an American political competitor, mean as he has to be, full of ideas and never to be left unwatched. In other words, Dems are jealous.

In the long range of American History, I don't think we've changed that much, and frankly on the whole we've changed for the better. Republicans and conservatives used to be on the 'racist' side of the equation. Those days are done. We've got problems but we're none of us quitters.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:27 PM

The problem is politicians in general. Once you sell your soul it's hard to remember that you had one at one time. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:35 AM

I think Ron is most definitely right, but I think the Democrat party also suffers (is losing its power) because it is so easily charaterized by it's extreme -- an extreme that many in the country just do not agree with. Yet.

Take the abortion issue, for example. The country is overwhelmingly moderate. I don't remember who here said it, but it's true that there are about 20% hard-core on either side, right or left. The Democrats, for fear of losing their base (a fear I think they needn't have worried so much about -- they are sewed up. Upon reflection, maybe that's where the Nader threat played so heavily), voted, in close chronological proximity to the election, to uphold the extreme of late-term abortions.

Had they moderated their veiws, moderates (the majority) may not have been scared off.

The left's brand of internationalism also seemingly scares the moderate moreso than does the exteme measures the Republicans seem to be offering to defend us internationally. I am not fond of Bush (I didn't vote for him. I have my doubts that the Republicans will survive him -- certainly the conservatives have not), but his showing a willingness to protect our interests, however convoluted, is interpretted by the moderate as less threatening than the exteme left who sees no threat in terrorism -- in fact, charaterizes it as something that is our (moderates included) fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:11 AM

So, what Republican or conservative candidate can we encourage to run as a third party candidate in 2008? How about Ventura in 2008? Slam 'em to the mat, Jesse!

Excellent insight, Ron. (I don't think Nader drew many votes last time around. He's really lost almost all credibility.) He's at his nadir.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:36 AM

Good thinking, Ron.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:59 AM

I didn't say it was a nice thing to do - bomb Libya. I was just conjecturing on the possible reasons for the war.

And it still seems quite a likely explanation. to discourage the others - usually rendered in French, but you get my meaning.

I guess thats why we elect people who not completely likeable to be our national leaders. They do things on our behalf which aren't very nice. but they probably think they are doing it for the best.

There again maybe I'm wrong, perhaps you could have knocked Tony and george down with a feather when they to their utter amazement - there weren't any WMDs, and Osama wasn't having lunch with Saddam down his hole.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:04 AM

Ron Davies,

That is a brilliant observation concerning the roles played by 'third' parties in American politics--specifically the most recent Presidential election. It is a solid piece of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:23 AM

LOL!

I love that episode of Andy Griffith where the good folk of Mayberry are putting together a choir. The director can't quite figure out why they sound so awful.....but somebody's off key.

So the director walk around the choior as they are singing, smiling at the lovely sopranos, the altos, a bass or two -- each singing their parts perfectly on key.

Then the camera pans to Barney Fife just caterwalling at the top of his voice -- totally oblivious to the dischord.

When the director stops the choir's singing and addresses the situation that, "Someone among us is off key", Barney hitches up his trousers with his elbows, gives that sniff and knowing smirk that, of course it is not he who is at fault -- but he's more than willing to help the others figure out the culprit.

Frank's posts are the Barney Fife of this thread. And I fear that there is no Gomer Pyle waiting in the wings to sing over him (if you remember the episode)

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:06 AM

"After the Lockerbie bombing, America bombed Libya. This was a country led by people who had been behind all kinds of naughtiness.

Libya were pretty damn quick to disocciate themselves from 9/11."

Easy, easy weelittledrummer. The sudden bombing of Tripoli
cost a lot of lives - including the lives of children. The baby daughter of Ghaddafi was amomng them. So be fair who are the terrorists ?

US directly contravened the UN. If you don't honestly see that they were wrong, then there is something wrong with your reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:48 AM

As a Republican who fought Bush tooth and nail, and still considers he is a disaster for the US and possibly the world, I'd like to say that you fellow Kerry supporters are actually too hard on yourselves about the 2004 election.

If you look at the elections since 1945, for instance you find that one of the most significant factors is the presence of 3rd parties and where on the political spectrum you find them. If the president has no 3rd party taking votes from him, he wins a second term.   Ike won in 1956. Johnson didn't even try in 1968. If he had, the anti-war party might well have lost it for him. Nixon won in 1972. The

exception to the rule was Carter in 1980, up against 17% or so inflation and the perceived national disgrace of the hostage situation.

In 1992, the 3rd party was on the right--Perot took quite a few votes Bush senior would likely have gotten. In 1996 there was no significant 3rd party--so Clinton won. In 2000 it was Nader (not a second term situation---besides, we know who got the most popular votes that year). Nader again in 2004.

You may point out that Nader got very few votes this time. True, but his presence in the campaign made Bush's #1 line plausible --flip-flopping. Kerry was forced to appeal to the left in order to win the Democratic nomination, but tack back to the middle to try to win the general election, thereby leaving himself wide open to the flip-flop charge. (In my opinion he could have flung the charge back at Bush--nation-building in Iraq, steel tariffs, etc.)

The problem may be the primary system, which tends to reward "true believers"--on the left for the Democrats, on the right for the Republicans.   I thought at the time the strongest Democratic candidate would have been Wesley Clark--good luck attacking him as anti-military. But obviously he had no chance in Democratic primaries.

Bush had no problems in primaries, obviously. So he was able to use his huge war-chest to define Kerry early---as the feminists said, EMILY---Early Money Is Like Yeast. Also, part of his supporters' money did in fact go to strengthen Nader, reminding Kerry that the Left did have an alternative, and thus making his task that much more difficult.

If this theory has any validity, the Democrat in 2008 will have a far better chance than Kerry ever did--in 2008 both parties will have primaries--with their bruising and expensive consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 08:43 PM

Jerry, you are right. To go a bit further, in my opinion, the democrats lost because they put up a posturing asshole with more skeletons in his closet than the average graveyard. People didn't vote for Kerry, they voted against Bush.
Like Sinsull, I am seriously considering becoming an independent because I am furious with the democrat leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 08:37 PM

well, I kinda hope Howard Dean gets the post of Dem. chairman......he seems to have all sorts of backing and praise ....when he isn't running for president!

The Republicans always said they hoped he WOULD win the nomination, as they thought he'd be easier to beat than Kerry....I really wonder how it would have gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 08:20 PM

And stop blaming the Democrats, too.

Start solving the damn problems. Learn from the past, stop repeating it. Find a message (or a few good messages) and stay with them -- don't get sidetracked, and above all, don't get drawn into a pissing match.

Right now, the Democratic Party, the Labor Unions, and all the rest are a bunch of gutless wonders. So is the regular Republican Party, which is no longer the party of Goldwater or Lincoln, but a group of ideologues who have managed to get into power.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 08:15 PM

LOL! Hear! Hear!

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 08:12 PM

I have complete faith in both the Dems and the Reps (as I do in the Canadian political parties). I trust them both to line their pockets and the wallets of their friends. I trust them to build good retirement savings funds for themselves so they don't have to get by on less than $50,000/year after their homes are paid for. I trust them to honour their keepers, the money in multinationals, the power of taxation to keep folks in line, ignore the poor, jump lines in the health system, commit crimes while in office, and get the occasional kickback while they are going about the people's business. Yes, I have complete faith in both the Dems and the Reps.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 08:03 PM

Well, Jerry, I don't have a particle of faith in either the Democrats or the Republicans...

But I agree with your main point: the Democrats have lost their way. I'd say it's because they're deathly afraid to say what they are really thinking and what they really believe...for fear that they might be accused of being "liberal" or "unpatriotic" if they did.

So, they're trying to play it safe. That won't cut it. Playing it safe amounts to lying, evading, going into denial, fudging, and not taking a clear stand on anything.

It's really sad to watch from outside the borders of the USA, but it's no big surprise. The Democratic Party lacks guts enough to take a stand, and they won't run a candidate who has that kind of guts. They'll make sure he doesn't run.

And other than that...what Frank said.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 08:01 PM

The phrase "uneducated pinheads with an attention span measuered in seconds" was not meant to apply to Republicans or Democrats. It was meant to apply to the vast majority of the Ameican population who are unaware of what is going on politically but vote for someone anyway.

For example, after the recall election in California a UCLA student was quoted as saying he voted for Arnold because he thought it would be cool to have Arnold's signature on his diploma. Or the lady in Ohio who we heard say her husband had been unemployed for two years after being laid off from his job at a manufacturing facility and they were in desparate financial straights but she was voting for Bush because he accepted Jesus as his personal saviour.

It's difficult to explain the issues to people like that but the Democrats keep trying instead of using better PR like the Republicans do.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 07:46 PM

The Dems lost this past election the day they sat down with their media and Repub. buddies and conspired to put an end to Howard Dean's campaign...

Might of fact the last Dem. president was Jimmy Carter...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 07:26 PM

Everything went to Hell in a handbasket when we started using fluoride. I think it was invented by Republicans.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 07:12 PM

just been reading through this thread. lets go back to blaming the republicans - it was a lot less complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:50 PM

Frank:

That's all good, and I am reasonably aware of what is going on, as I have ongoing discussions with my yougnest son who is very active politically, and also have friends directly involved in political activism. I'm with you 100% on that, as well.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM

Jerry,
Dems are beginning to do something about it. We're getting the facts out. Also we're starting to mobilize at the grass roots level. We've got a governor for Montana and Washington State. We're looking at country commissioner seats, school boards and local races. I am part of the Grass Root Dems and we are growing. Howard Dean is traversing the country encouraging Dems to get busy and elect local people. We are protesting the debacle in Iraq (check Ted Kennedy's speech) and we are writing letters to the editor of newspapers. Believe me, we are not whining but will be a formidable force in the future against this incompetent and dictatorial Administration. Karl Rove, Lee Atwater and the like don't have a monopoly on political action. They may have a monopoly however on dirty politics.

Bush is already digging himself in a hole over both Iraq and gutting Social Security. Also senior's prescription prices have gone up and AARP knows it.

Our biggest problem is the Republican wing of the Democratic Party. We need to reclaim our true base. We can't allow the Liebermans, Froms, Marshalls and the Frosts to speak for us. We can't allow Reid to dance with the other side of the aisle. It's equivalent to going to bed with them. Peter Beinart doesn't speak for us either since he's "more of the same". I am writing the DLC all the time in protest.

Right now the Christo-fascists are in power but it's not clear how long their propaganda will be able to prevail. People will wake up and find that their Social Security is being attacked. These elections in Iraq are a farce and will fail because it's not about freedom or democracy really. It's about corrupt Allawis being indebted to the corporatocracy in the U.S.

We are writing letters to the editors of newspapers, talking to our congress people, and our think tanks are growing daily. The problem with Neo-cons is that they think that criticism of their views is whining. They did not have a clear mandate with the percentage that voted for Bush. It was the lowest margin of difference in the history of presidential elections.
We have the right to criticize and to question whether they have the mandate that they think they have.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Teresa
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 04:48 PM

I'll consider any candidate who makes some sense out of things, has strong convictions, and is not afraid to call a spade a spade.

I haven't seen that combination of qualities in either of the two big parties for a long time.

Instead of making their views known, most of the candidates I've noticed are watering them down or pandering to whomever they think will give them the most votes. If candidates would just run on a strong platform and talk about issues in an honest way, I could decide whether I agree with those views and vote accordingly. I resent condescension and I imagine the average voter does, too. I resent the corporate lobbyists calling the shots.

I think the campaign apparatus needs to be restructured in a major way.

Till then, in my heart of hearts, I can't vote for either of the two parties.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 04:18 PM

Pretty much all true, Frank:

So, what are the Democrats going to do about it? Protesting is definitely an important responsibility. But, there needs to be a clearly defined, positive alternative. I don't belief in fear-mongering, as the Republicans have used so successfully. (I also don't think considering anyone who didn't vote Democarat to be "an uneducated pinhead" (not your statement) an attractive way to increase the Democratic base.

Maybe it's time to vote for something, rather than against.

Wouldn't that be refreshing?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM

Jerry,

Instead of blaming Republicans or anyone, I think it's important to stay with the facts. There was voting fraud in Ohio and Florida that favored Republicans.
There is a president who is a dictator in the White House. Corporate lobbyists have bought the government. (This is true of Dems as well as Repubs). Bush is on a wrong-headed policy of military intervention in Iraq. He also wants to sabotage Social Security by privatizing it and making the money available to Wall Street at the expense of retirees. Bush has gutted EPA, FDA and all the protective agencies for our citizen's health. The Christo-fascists have controlled a major part of the Republican Party and forced their agenda on our country. This president has divided the country and fulfilled the prophecy of Pat Buchanan who predicted a culture war. There is a class war as well between the "haves and the have nots". I am in favor of dialogue and debate but that's not what we're getting nowadays because many people are asleep and not informed. They also are hypnotized by the Conservative media. It is decidedly not "liberal" as the Neo-con propagandists would have you believe.

We are living in an Orwellian and insane time.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 02:43 PM

Most surveys show that the majority of people are with the Democrats on most issues. The war in Iraq, the ecomomy, the environment, etc. But, the Republicans have much better PR. They are the party that invented the terms "Healthy Forest Act", "No Child Left Behind", "Clear Skies Act", "Death Tax", "Evil Doers", "Defense of Marriage", "The Ownership Society", and more. When you're uneducated about politics, this is all it takes to sway your vote.

So, the Democrats lost their way by trying to explain the issues to a bunch of uneducated pinheads with an attention span measuered in seconds. Gore did it. Kerry did it. Meanwhile, the Republicans just kept repeating the slogan of the moment which appeals greatly to those who are ignorant and "don't have the time" to read about the issues.

End of rant.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 02:27 PM

Jerry...I am afraid that if the goal is just winning, "formulating a positive blueprint....for the future" might involve stooping to some of the same tactics that we have been fighting. I think that fear mongering and distracting flag waving are very powerful forces when all we use to counter them is rationality and positive thinking. *IF* this current policy hits enough people in the pocketbook and they get scared that the current policy is endangering them MORE by creating more enemies, then perhaps they will vote the other way next time....I really doubt that just making sense will be enough.

and, of course, finding a candidate who has some special charisma that can't be easily distorted by lies and fake arguments will help...Most of those have declined to run in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:16 PM

Hey, Bill:

I don't necessarily disagree with anything that you say. I do believe that 80% of the people will vote their party line, no matter who is running. What I'm saying is that focusing all of our anger (even it is justified) on the Republicans does nothing to formulate a positive blueprint for the Democratic party for the future. It's time to start figuring out where WE went wrong, and how we need to clarify those things the Democratic party has always stood for in a way that is relevant to today's world climate. Not Franklin Delano's.

Robomatic: I agree with you. There is evil afoot in the world with greater desperation than I can ever remember it. The danger is that we respond to evil in evil ways. Out-evil our enemies. You bombin' the World Trade Center, eh? Howdja like it if we wiped out whole villages in Iraq? Eh? Women and children, too/ That's who you messin' wit, homey! I also admit that the Democrats seemed to remember to at least appear stalwart, even at the last moment. Kerry's little salute and "reporting for action" gesture looked pathetically stupid to me (I still voted for him.. on the consider tha alternative ticket.) I think that this country probably needs some weird hybrid of George W. Kennedy (oooowhooooo). Kindof a tough-ass, gentler bastard.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:09 PM

Interesting post, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:06 PM

I don't know, It's been awhile but I still hear innuendo, if not outright statements, that all the problems in America (and worldwide) are the fault of Clinton. I can admit that Clinton was morally bankrupt. I can admit he didn't do everything right. But everything?

I disagree with alot of the Pres. policy. I really believe that we are being manipulated by the current administration. With the different cabinets making contracts to "hawk" their product, with every rationale for war falling the wayside, with every diminishing expectation for Iraq, and for the abrupt turn around (after the election)of our intelligence community stating that they were wrong about the previous alerts, it really makes me wonder.

I also object strenuously to the enlisted folks taking the heat for Abu Graib and Guantonamo. What happened to "The Buck Stops Here"?

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM

" ...the democratic party has lost touch with it's constituency."

I dunno, Jerry. That's kinda vague. What IS its constituency? They went out and picked a candidate who got 48 million votes. Were they more 'in touch' when Gore got more votes 4 years ago?

Seems to me that the situation is that there is (roughly) a 40% block of Republicans that would vote Republican if Karl Rove sprouted horns and a tail, and (roughly)40% of Democrats that would vote Democrat if Al Sharpton had been nominated....but in between is this 20% or so of folks who respond to different criteria, and MY personal opionion is that the Republicans worked very hard pulling whatever emotional strings that are connected to a lot of those in between folks...many of them single issue or 'theme' voters...(war, abortion, gun control, 'security', patriotism, gay rights and marriages...etc.) They made every effort NOT to clarify what they intended on many issues, and to concentrate on just what would push buttons...(and keep some people FROM pushing voting buttons)

I have said before that I believe that the very conservative Republicans who dominate the party mechanism right now have embarked on a complex plan to UN-level the playing field in order to tilt the whole process in their favor. So, in this sense, I "blame the Republicans" for skewing the very concept of Democracy while promoting the idea. This is a hard thing to **prove**, and Karl Rove is too smart to nod in agreement with my suspicion.

Right now we see some murmuring in Republican ranks, as this war is looking more & more like it will cost WAY more money and lives for its value than even some Republicans can stomach....so, if some Republicans start blaming each other, we may get a 'course correction' in 2008...at least at the top!

I know there are Republicans out there that are NOT obsessed Messianic fools...that even if they were elected, it would not scare the living sh** out of me...but until they rescue their party from this idiocy it is mired in, I WILL blame them for pushing the whole country into a situation that is lose/lose, and making the entire political debate take twists & turns that bewilder well-meaning folks on BOTH side!

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:57 PM

WLD:

Maybe, maybe....I have a similar hypothesis, that he went to war in Iraq in order to create a playbox into which to draw the forces of Al Qaeda, since there was no way to wage war against them in the usual way because of their diffuse nature. Make an artificial nature by borrowing Iraq's real estate and goading Al Qaeda to flood it and take it as their turf for purposes of confronting the great Satan, thus inviting them into a fire zone where they could be exterminated.

But, I had to ask myself whether it was possible Bush was capable of that sort of strategic subtlety, and honest;y, I kinda doubt it.

Well, if he wasn't pursuing as brilliant strategy that he just couldn't mention, because it would give away the whole trick, then what was he doing?

The knee-jerk liberal answer is, aggrandizing his ego and being a stupid jerk. Awfully judgmental, I know. But it may also be the case. I dunno the man personally but I have thought he was one short of a six-pack for some time now.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:38 PM

Perhaps you have a problem with authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:31 PM

There are some people, who if they say something I agree with, I immediately doubt their reason for saying it.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:31 PM

Maybe Bush is smarter than you give him credit for.

After the Lockerbie bombing, America bombed Libya. This was a country led by people who had been behind all kinds of naughtiness.

Libya were pretty damn quick to disocciate themselves from 9/11.

Maybe Bush knew there probably weren't WMD's in Iraq. they were like the tennis balls scene in Henry V, where Henry gives a specious reason for war and then takes offence at a petty slight.

However perhaps Bush felt he had to make a vigorous and prolonged reaction to 9/11 to show that there would be consequences of terrorism like this, and its not all that smart to f---- with a country that has the power the re-draw the maps if they feel like it.

I'm not saying he was right, but I since the WMD's didn't turn up , I have wondered what the war was about. A naive person would say simply oil, but its obvious that possession of such a raw material doesn't make a country rich or important.

Maybe thats the answer.   maybe thats the way he felt he had to play it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:23 PM

Jerry: I think there's plenty of blame to go around, but that a lot of it comes from 'we, the people'. I think the media have been doing a substandard job of pursuing facts and framing the questions. I think our President is well meaning but average in everything but willingness to hang out there and make a commitment. This may or may not be his saving grace depending on how our involvement in the mideast goes.

But we are in an era of change which will not wait for the US and I don't think our current administration really gets that. I think the previous administration definitely did.

But keeping it simple. At the moment I think there is real evil out there, the Republicans see it better than the Democrats, but inside the US the Republicans are appealing to those who are looking for old standards and the Democrats are out of touch and anything but stalwart.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:15 PM

I have never asked anyone how they voted until I decided whether or not we'd get along. I try not to ask AFTER that, either. I stopped being surprized years ago when my closest friend told me he was going to the polls and voting for the NDP (a left-of-center political party in Canada) because he'd always presented as sooo conservative on some issues. Go figger.

Much like religion. Basically, I am not interested in who is what religion or why initially, because I do not base a friendship on that kind of thing about a person. Good people are where ya find 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM

Two lackluster campaigns with no clear message. Don't they remember Clinton's refrain? "It's the economy, stupid!" Bush played on the fear of terrorism and the safety of a strong (read aggressive) president. He caught voters' attention with it despite fumbling throught he debates. So what will the message be in 2008? And who will state it clearly?

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:56 AM

Jerry, don't feel bad. there's posts here every day that have the line, "I can't believe that I am agreeing with Martin Gibson on something."

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:50 AM

No criticism here, Jerry. Sometimes I have to check to see what party a speaker represents. There seems to be little or no difference between the two.

This election was lost because the Democrats allowed the Republicans to set the agenda. They never put forth a clear message of their own and were always on the defensive. I suspect they had no clear message and that was the problem. Worse, they seem to be headed down the road of "Let's go back to the Clinton years. We've got his wife right here." It ain't gonna fly. In fact I am for the first time in my life considering dropping my membership and going Independent.

The lack of direction within the Democratic party is just as responsible for the mess in Iraq as the Republicans. They did support the president's decision to invade Iraq. And they did it for political safety.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:46 AM

Hey, Amos:

I don't consider you a whinger (Martin and I part company here.) I think that a serious problem in this country is how uninformed the populace is. When Bush proposes to cut government support for tuition for the poor by 30 or 40% it's relegated to one paragraph on page 18 in the paper, if it's covered at all. If this country is to vote intelligently, they need to be well informed. It is the foundation of Democracy, and without a well-informed populace, dictatorships will arise under the guise of Democracy. I applaud what you are doing. My issue lies elsewhere.. the apparent unwillingness of those who believe in the Democratic to take a hard look at what we're doing wrong, and how we've lost touch with this country, rather than taking the more entertaining path of focusing our energy completely on what the republicans are doing.

This last election proved pretty conclusively to me that you can't win on an "Anyone is better than him" strategy.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:39 AM

How helpful is it to blame at all? Instead of shifting the blame from one party to the other, why not celebrate the heroes working hard out there in public service, that one can respect, regardless of party?

I'll start. Erick Coolidge is a dairy farmer like many others in our huge, sparsely-populated, rural and rugged county. He's done a lot since adding public service to his activities, most recently notable being to try to find business interests to buy the plant that's closing. The closure will put 90+ people out of work directly, and many others indirectly as the ripple of the job losses spreads through the area. For example the train that keeps raw materials coming in, and product going out, may go down now-- putting another company or two out of business-- because the plant that's closing has been half the train's revenue.

No one here makes much off anyone else-- it's all neighbors suffering and laboring together, leaders included. Yes I know national policy is part of the cause, but right now I just want to celebrate those who actually SERVE the public.

I have no idea what party if any, Erick identifies with. He's for US, and it isn't even his slogan.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:39 AM

Jerry:

No need to devour anyone -- you are absolutely right.

I don't keep sticking things in the Bush thread to whinge about them.

I do it to testify so that the machinery of lies doesn't win by default.

Keeping the track straight as to what went down when.

This is sometimes unpopular but I mean to do it anyway.

Anyway, blame and whinging are NOT part of my style, as a rule. They're both counter-productive.

A

Subject: BS: Stop Blaming The Republicans!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:30 AM

Man, talk about throwing red meat to the wolves. Especially in here.
I generally don't even bother to read political threads in here, because I think most posts are people just espousing their own views, without stopping to try to understand why people have opposing views. Mostly just a shouting match, with 95% of the participants being Democrats.

I are a Democrat. I come from a family of Democrats. I think the Democrats lost the election, not that the Republicans won it. And that's an important distinction. I think that the Democratic party has become woefully out of touch with this country and until the party, and all of us Democrats take responsibility for that, we'll never move this country forward in the way we feel it was founded to be. I once was founded, but now I lost. Or something like that. Now, you can say that the Republicans have usurped patriotism and morality and put Democrats on the defensive, and you're probably right. Blaming the Republicans isn't going to cut it. Getting in touch with this country is going to take some soul-searching, rather than just pious finger-pointing.

There was obviously a lot of anger in this country after 9/11. The initial reaction was to bring this country together. But then, that anger was used to fuel a misguided patriotism that led to invading Iraq. Now, patriotism is used to defend our actions there, and we've devolved into a country of redneck right wingers and pointy-headed liberals. At least, that's how the political parties would like to make us think. It's my opinion (not a fact, Ma'm) that the democratic party has lost touch with it's constituency. And that can't be blamed on the Republicans.

I know that it's cathartic to constantly pound on the Republicans in here, and some of the things I believe about Bush would perhaps shock even some of his strongest critics. But, it's time to stop the whinging (I can't believe I actually agree with Mart Gibson on something) and take a hard look at how the Democratic party has lost it's way.

O.K. fellers, start devouring me..

Jerry

A fellow liberal Democrat