error 403

Subject: RE: error 403
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:34 AM

I didn't mean to start a debate on what should happen. The real point is that a whole lot of web sites are pretty sloppily slapped together, and "deviations from standard" do happen frequently. Posted links also are often "just a little bit deviant."

The intended use for the 403 error is to indicate that the requested page is present, but you're not authorized to see it. It does often pop up when something else is the real problem. The 404 error also has a pretty specific defined use that's often very loosely, and often incorrectly, interpreted.

A couple of sites I visit occasionally give me a "404" when the real cause is a packet collision due to traffic. They've told me the page doesn't exist (wrong) but if I click it again it loads normally.

When you log in, most log-in pages will send you a cookie to show that you've been approved. Recommended practice (by some) is that the site should read-back the cookie to make sure you got it; but many sites don't bother. If your firewall, cookie blocker, etc., blocked the cookie, a site may tell you you've logged in when you didn't actually get your ticket punched. With most "blockers" you have the option whether you get notified when a cookie is blocked, so you may or may not know that this one got bounced.

If you use your "Back" button to exit the log-in page, you may load the prev page from memory instead of reloading from the site. In essence you've done a time warp back to B.C. (before cookie) and if you go from there to a page that requires a log-in you may get bounced. (Apparently a common "my login didn't work" happening on the 'cat?)

HTML pages can specify a character set, but many don't. While there is, nominally, a default char set if they don't specify one, there are many variations in what actually happens with an open char set. ANY character that isn't specifically included in the char set that the site is using can be read as a "wild card" and may be interpreted as code, key, etc. "other thing," or may just be ignored. Without seeing the code for a specific page - and the code for anything it calls - it's almost impossible to guess all the errors that can happen.

If it's on the web, you can't assume it's true. But you can interpret and verify (sometimes).

John

Subject: RE: error 403
From: MudGuard
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 03:47 AM

403 Forbidden should be used for urls that exist but will show no result (no index.htm in a folder or similar) to anyone.
404 should be used for urls that do not exist.

Usually, if you ask for a folder with the / missing at the end of the url, the server responds with a
301 Moved Permanently
with an additional Location-header redirecting to the URL with the / added - which the client (browser) usually answers with a request for the new URL.

See for example the following piece of HTTP communication (caught with Firefox's LiveHTTPHeaders extension [no http bodies], I emboldened the important pieces) - note the / or not / at the end of urls/url-parts:

http://www.andreas-waechter.de/IRL

GET /IRL HTTP/1.1
Host: www.andreas-waechter.de
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041107 Firefox/1.0
Accept: text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
Accept-Language: en-us,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
Keep-Alive: 300
Connection: keep-alive

HTTP/1.x 301 Moved Permanently
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:37:03 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.45 (Win32) PHP/4.3.6
Location: http://www.andreas-waechter.de/IRL/
Content-Length: 347
Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=100
Connection: Keep-Alive
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.andreas-waechter.de/IRL/

GET /IRL/ HTTP/1.1
Host: www.andreas-waechter.de
[...]

Subject: RE: error 403
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:11 PM

And even have a chain of priorities. I can't remember off hand how I set up but I think the Annexe and folkinfo will try for a "default.asp" before trying for a "index.htm".

Subject: RE: error 403
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:53 PM

Of course, you can set up the server so that accessing a directory results in the transmission of a default page, such as 'index.htm' or 'default.html'

Subject: RE: error 403
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 04:17 PM

Referring to what John said and his experiences:

I stand to be corrected and far from sure on this but I think strictly speaking, a "/" is asking for a directory. As such, depending on the server set up I would suggest that perhaps when you get the 403, it does mean 403 (not wrongly suggesting 404) as listing of the directory is denied. If you deleted the "/" and got a 404, that may be in order because it is looking for a page that could not be found.

Subject: RE: error 403
From: El Dano
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:24 AM

It was the firewall
Firstly all my emails disapeared thenwhen ever I tried to down load anything ( It just so happens I was trying to get some pdf files)I tried to reinstall adobe reader that was forbidden
I checked with the ISP to see if there was a problem with my account
I finally decided to disable the firewall and was able to grab a quick pdf I uninstalled the firewall and reinstalled from the folder on my hard drive that I download all progs to and it works I'm happy only took 4 bleeding hours tho!

Subject: RE: error 403
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 10:27 PM

Amos -

The tech sources indicate that the "incorrect" usage of the "403 error" is so common that it's not really a "mistake." It's just vernacular usage.

John

Subject: RE: error 403
From: Amos
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 09:09 PM

Whoops!!My mistake. Sorry. My weary brain is melting into opuddles of excessive association!

Thanks for the correction.


A

Subject: RE: error 403
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 09:05 PM

Security level settings can be a problem, but the "message" (403) is supposed to mean that you're not authorized to go where you are trying to get to. (or is that "to where you're trying to get"?) Since the site you're connecting to has some control over what messages get displayed, you sometimes do have to "interpret" the messages, and "errors" are common. The 403 error is reported as being used often where the 404 error shoud be used.

Most sites where you need to log in will display a "login" or "logout" button in the header. (Mudcat is sort of an exception, since most of us stay logged in perpetually.) You might check and see if there's a "login" button displayed on the site you're trying to get from/into, since usually it disappears if you are actually logged in and gets replaced by a logout button. If you see a login button, you probably need some additional qualifications. If security settings apply, they may have offered a cookie that your security settings didn't accept. Some sites allow a "guest login" that doesn't grant full access. Look for a FAQ, or info on "membership."

Because of the error that results from an extraneous "/" or other "end characters," if you're using a posted link sometimes right clicking the link, copy shortcut, paste the shortcut into your address bar, and deleting the last character in the address before you hit Enter may get you "somewhere." Sometimes where you get won't be where you want to be, but applying a little "inventive thinking" may lead you on to better things from there.

Sometimes, if you only want a posted "image," right clicking a link to the page and selecting "save target as" will get you stuff that you're not actually "authorized" to see. If you use the link and actually go to the page, they won't let you save it, or sometimes even to see it; but the "save target" sometimes works from outside the actual page where the stuff is displayed. (Only sometimes, but often enough to be worth a try.) Note that even if it works, you still have to figure out where it got saved and find a way to make it useful for your own needs.

The most likely is that the "403 error - access denied" that's been reported to you really should have been a "404 error - page not found," but playing around with it can sometimes get what you're looking for. Be creative.

John

Subject: RE: error 403
From: El Dano
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 08:00 PM

As far as I can see I have been registered. The problem I thought mightbe with my high security level

Subject: RE: error 403
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 05:40 PM

From Mickey's Knowledge Base:

When you access a virtual directory, you receive a 403 error (access denied error) even though the content does not exist. The GET request should return a 404 error (not found error).

The 403 error is supposed to mean you are denied access, which would imply that you need to log in, sign up, join up, or some other twat to gain access.

There are circumstances where a 403 error will be returned when the "correct" message should have been a 404 - page not found. One such circumstance is when you put an extraneous "/" or "\" on the end of an address. This is sometimes translated by the server as an html instruction, and it thinks you're looking for the "null" directory, which may or may not exist. Since allowing access to the "null" (or nul) folder is unusual, you may get a "you can't go there."

Note that the "/" and/or "\" characters may be legitimate in some addresses(?) but in cases where they're not, they may cause this sort of error. A similar extraneous character in the page script can cause the same, or similar errors. There's not much you can do about bad script on a posted page.

You can check the URL you're using, and make sure you don't have any extra end characters. If whacking of an end char doesn't help, then you probably need to register to get authorized to see the stuff you're looking for.

John

Subject: RE: error 403
From: MudGuard
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

Sorry, Amos, you are wrong. "Not found" is 404, 403 is "Forbidden".

"403 Forbidden" is for example the result of a non-existing index.html in a folder while at the same time directory listing is switched off in the server config.

"404 Not found" can be the result of type errors or removed resources and so on.

Subject: RE: error 403
From: Amos
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM

It actually means "not found" which can be because of access failure (forbidden) or it can be because of a typo in the pathname or a missing file.

A

Subject: RE: error 403
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 12:30 PM

You probably need to join or register.

Subject: RE: error 403
From: MudGuard
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 06:17 AM

403 means "Forbidden", i.e. you are not allowed to get what you requested.
For the reasons why you are forbidden you should ask the people who run the site - they can tell you.

Subject: error 403
From: El Dano
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 05:21 AM

Since mudcat has got so unstable I've been looking round other groups ,when I try and download files from the yahoo gypsey jazz forum I get http error 403
Is this because the site wont release the files to me or are my security settings preventing them coming in