Methedrine Blues-a question

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 05:14 AM

Ebbie -

The article you linked does not exaggerate. Illicit "meth labs" have been a growing problem in my area.

About a year ago Oklahoma restricted the sale of the pseudoephrine cold tablets (Sudafed and generics) that are used to make meth, and Kansas followed in the current legislature. You still can buy them without a prescription, but pharmacies are not allowed to display them where customers can handle them, and you have to show identification and sign for them. Quantities that can be purchased at one time are limited, and both states have made claims that the records will be used to track anyone who attempts to get them from more than one source. (Sales of fake IDs should boom.)

Oklahoma claims a significant drop in meth lab busts since their law went into effect, while Kansas saw a rapid increase in "Okies" buying the pills here. The Kansas law hasn't been in effect long enough to tell how much it will accomplish here, but it may be the only useful thing the Kansas Legislature accomplished this term.

Two of the toxic chemicals often used in meth manufacture are anhydrous ammonia, which can be fairly easily stolen from agricultural users, and metallic lithium. The lithium literally explodes if exposed to air, so the perverts scrape it out of batteries submerged in kerosine. Anhydrous ammonia can be deadly, and can "linger" even in open areas for very long times if spilled or discarded inappropriately. Concentrated acids, mainly nitric and sulphuric, are often used, Any of these individually can be deadly, especially if you don't know they're present. A couple of the commonly used reactions are strongly exothermic, and subject to "runaway reaction" that can literally blow the walls out of a building.

While some labs are set up in remote areas and run for longer times, most meth labs move frequently. A couple in my area have been found where the operators rented hotel/motel rooms for as short a time as 3 or 4 days, ran their lab, and left all the junk/contamination behind in the rooms.

There is no "honor among thieves" in this activity. It's easier to steal it from another "producer" than it is to make it, and almost as safe; so the operators usually are heavily armed and frequently booby-trap the premises. "Set-guns," trip-wire devices, and hidden explosives are fairly often found, and some or all of the "traps" are often left behind when the operators leave a lab site.

The "meth high" is a lot like a "crack" cocaine high, and can induce the same kinds of violent, irrational, and destructive behaviours. (By some accounts, meth at high illicite dosages may be even more addictive than cocaine.) A "local boy" recently killed a County Sheriff, a "family friend," pretty close to here when the sheriff called to check out why he hadn't reported to his parole officer for a relatively minor past offense. The "kid" was high on meth and running a lab to make more, and shot his "friend," the sheriff.

Gang participation in the "business" is a certainty, but its actual extent isn't clearly known, (so far as I know). There have been reports of gangs using meth "freebies" to recruit juveniles to their associated "kid gangs." Usage to recruit, retain, and control prostitutes is pretty well documented.

John

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 02:41 AM

Here's a sad news report. Will there ever be an answer?

"Swamped with meth cases, the crime lab that serves Jefferson County is six months to a year behind in processing evidence. That's not unusual.

"A decade after meth took hold in the heartland, the inexpensive, highly addictive home-brewed stimulant is straining rural law enforcement resources to the breaking point.

"The Polk County Jail in central Iowa is so packed with addicts that the sheriff sends the overflow out of state, at a cost of $5 million a year. Indiana's state crime lab has such a huge backlog of meth cases that the governor has appealed for help from chemistry graduate students."

More

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 01:01 AM

Sure, Ritalin is overprescribed. Ideally, it should only be prescribed after all possible environmental causes for a kid's problems have been eliminated. Unfortunately, it's easier for a doc to prescribe a pill than to convince a mom that for her kid to get better she needs to eliminate highly processed sugar and preservative-laden foods from the kid's diet, not use pesticides and herbicides, and restrict television watching to no more than a couple of hours per day.

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 04:23 AM

Medicated Family
                               Guy (Buddy) Tabor (c)2003
                               Edge of Despair

They say that I'm hyper and bounce off the walls
And I can't keep a straight line when I walk down the halls
The teacher has a hard time to make me sit down
'Cause I can't hold still, I'm spinning around
I'm eight years old and they say I'm a freak
'Cause I can't stop talking or stay in my seat
I can't seem to keep my hands to myself
I'm a target for the bullies and everyone else

My memory's all scrambled, I can't do a thing
I'm such a young failure, I feel so ashamed
Other kids can read but I can't catch on
My brain's out of balance, my motor skills gone
My teacher don't like me, can't take it no more
So I sit by myself just outside of her door
I'm lonely, forsaken and all by myself
'Til the school nurse medicates me from the pharmacy shelf

My mommy's on Prozac; it helps her to cope
When Daddy's stressed out he smokes lots of dope
He washes it down with 12 cans of beer
It levels him out and drowns all his fears
We're a medicated family in 2003
Thank God for Ritalin, made a new kid of me
When they give me my pills they think I'm all right
But I get bad dreams and I can't sleep at night
Can't sleep at night
Can't sleep at night…

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 03:53 AM

dianovan -

Although it's just an opinion, I don't think there's any question that Ritalin and other similar drugs are prescribed far too frequently. The PDR writeup, which is the same info that comes in the "handout" you're supposed to get with your prescription, does have some pretty tough warnings about what is needed to diagnose a case where Ritalin is indicated. If the manufacturer's recommendations were followed, there would be virtually NO INDIVIDUAL PRACTITIONERS who could justify the prescription without outside consultation with experts in specialty fields. I suspect that such specialist diagnostic evaluation happens infrequently.

The superficial evaluation that a child may be a potential client for the drug is pretty simple; but confirming that a given child has the specific conditions that will be helped, and eliminating the similar conditions that won't benefit or that may be made worse, requires rather detailed cross checking.

None of the few children I've had direct knowledge of, who have been given Ritalin, ever saw any practitioner other than their "family doctor." Parents involved had no knowledge of what - if any - tests were made to justify the dispensing of the drug to their kids. 'Tain't the way it ought to be, if you believe the manufacturer's instructions.

John

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 12:47 AM

Re: Ritalin

I researched the use of Ritalin a few years ago.

What has been said so far is accurate but it is not a 'harmless' drug

One area that needs further study regarding the use of Ritalin and ADHD/hperactivity is that although it enables the student to focus for longer periods of time (which helps the student demonstrate what has already been learned) there is increasing evidence that very little 'new learning' occurs when using Ritalin.

In other words, it is very difficult to teach new ideas to a student who is using Ritalin.

The other problem with Ritalin is that it is over prescribed and although there is supposed to be a trial period and data, this is rarely accomplished. Very little observation, if any, is undertaken during the trial period and most of it is highly subjective.

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 06:44 PM

Still beating a live horse here. Sorry. It's just that I think Buddy deserves greater fame. (Incidentally, Loomis is not quite correct in saying that you can't get Tabor CDs. eFolk Music has some of them, and any and all of Buddy's friends and fans would act as a middle man.)

Here's what Erik Loomis had to say:

"1. Buddy Tabor, "Raven with a Broken Wing" . Album--"Earth and the Sky"--No one knows who Buddy Tabor is. He paints houses in Juneau, Alaska and writes the most intense and dark lyrics this side of Townes Van Zandt but also with a sense of the greatness of life within them. Also writes some great political songs including a really funny one making fun of Rush Limbaugh's drug habit. But anyway, "Raven with a Broken Wing" is about a friend of Buddy's who got in a car wreck. I think it was a drunk driving thing. He thanks the doctor who saved his life and "you hugged him with the one arm you had left." When I heard that line, it was just a holy shit moment. I mean, how do you write a line like that? Just amazing. If you're interested in hearing one of his albums, just e-mail me. You can't buy them anywhere, including any online sites that I know of."

Source

http://alterdestiny.blogspot.com/2005/05/music-meme.html

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 03:30 PM

Here in New Brunswick, Canada, with a population of less than 1M, we have 48,000 on Ritalin. The government is "looking into" this at present.

Any comments on this one? I know of a child who is on Ritalin because his mother, a single, unemployable (that's right, read on) mom, is so overweight that she cannot control the child. Think about that for a minute before you comment. Seriously, do they drug the child, who is essentially a normal 8 year old boy, or do they take the child away from her?

Not so cut and dried by times, eh?

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 03:14 PM

Art -

Amphetamine, Methamphetamine, and Ritalyn are all "Central Nervous System Stimulants. There are differences in the chemical composition, and some differences in suspected pharmacological action, although the PDR (Physicians Desk Reference) admits that the exact mechanisms of action are not fully understood for any of the three.

The main medical use of Amphetamine (Adderall, Methedrine), Methamphetamine (Desoxyn) in recent years has been for weight loss, although that use is deprecated recently since most people who lose weight while using them seem to gain it back quite quickly when the therapy is stopped. Both are sometimes also used to treat children with Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity, although newer drugs like Ritalin have largely displaced them for this use.

The PDR warns that both of these have a high potential for addiction, and also includes a warning that patients may seek them for "illicit use." Both Amphetamine and Methamphetamine carry warnings about effects on circulation (blood pressure and pulse rate changes) and respiratory systems.

A side effect that the PDR doesn't warn about, for amphetamine or methamphetamine, is that the patient risks being "mugged" for the pills, since they're well known and have a fairly high value among illicit users. Some pharmacies, and some insurance policies, restrict dispensing of these drugs to small quantities (no more than a 1 week supply, perhaps) since having larger quantities on hand is considered a risk for the patient.

Ritaline has significantly fewer warnings about side effects, and is apparently significantly less prone to addiction, although there is a warning against very long term use. Treatment of Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity in children is the principal use given. There is a warning about prescribing Ritalin to "certain personality types" who may be inclined to increase dosage beyond the amounts prescribed, and in very high doses effects similar to the other two drugs are possible, including addiction/dependence.

The risk of addiction to Ritalin is indicated as being quite small at normal therapeutic dosages. There is the possibility of "accomodation" where the effectiveness of the drug is reduced, so that higher doses become necessary to achieve the same result. You should, of course, discuss any changes in dosage with your doc.

The only warning unique to Ritalin is that prolonged use at high dosages appears to inhibit normal growth in some children, so when/if you reach adolescence you may be a bit scrawny, relative to what you might otherwise have been. This shouldn't be a problem if you don't intend to grow up (any more than you have already).

John

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 03:07 PM

When prescribed for adults it works differently. But even in the small kids, it focuses them--increases their attention span--and that is how it works. Seems more like speed than a depressant. As I used to say--- "5 year old kids and drunks have the same attention span."

This really could be in the music threads too.

Art

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 01:12 PM

Ritalin is prescribed in the UK for hyper active children, and is under review for this use.
Giok

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 12:55 PM

I agree, Art. We say in Juneau that after his death Buddy will be famous.

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 12:04 PM

Buddy Tabor seems to be an amazing songwriter. I will look him up.

These posted words of his remind me of Tom Russell----and not many come close to Tom for writing those kinds of lyrics today.

Thanks again.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 11:54 AM

Thanks folks---for all the info. That's much more than I asked for--and it is appreciated.

Another question: Is Ritalin related to these drugs? --- The extreme effects of fatigue and heat on us people with MS prompted my neurologist to prescribe Ritalin for me twice a day----20 mg. It seems to be a regulated drug. Possibly addictive. But it works -- I am much more focused. Even may lose some weight---a GOOD side effect from my point of view. Wears of very quickly and doesn't get in the way of nightly sleep at all.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 03:34 AM

Spent a weekend on Methedrine in the late 60s, really weird buzz, hardly slept a wink all weekend. Then it took me till Wednesday before I felt anything like normal, what a comedown, still it was an experience but I wouldn't repeat it or recommend anybody else try it.
Giok

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 03:21 AM

Thanks, Guest. Buddy writes a lot of hard hitting songs on social issues. He has 7 or 8 CDs out and he writes some great stuff. One satirical one I especially like is 'Jesus Loves Me (More than He Loves You)' Starts out:

"Oh, I know it's cold sleeping in your car
But you really are to blame for where you are
I can see that you're down to skin and bones
But it's not my fault you're starving all alone

"You surely cannot punish my success
Just because my way of life has been so blessed
The reason why you ain't got no food or any shoes
Is 'cause Jesus loves me more than he loves you."

And goes on for another couple more verses.

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 11:06 PM

Mack -

I don't need any proof that Patton may have said it, as it sounds enough like something he might have said to be plausible and I don't intend to quote him. I do doubt that he had the "clinical expertise" to diagnose amphetamine's effect on what looks ghastly.

They may have been just ghostly pale because crashing in a glider scared the s...t out of them???? A friend who claimed to have flown one of the last half-dozen gliders into Bastogne said you could tell the ones who "glided in" by the expression on their face a week later. And he made a "safe" landing.

There's ample evidence of "stimulant" use by all sides in recent combats; but of course "we only do it when necessary, but they're all real dopeheads" was probably a standard propaganda line.

John

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:55 PM

EBBIE - those are powerful good lyrics. THANX

Subject: RE: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:54 PM

A source for your "fact" Mac, a source for your frac.

Subject: RE: BS: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:11 PM

The Germans in WW II regularly gave it to assault troops. Somewhere in his writing, Patton mentions seeing the bodies of a German assault squadron killed in a glider crash. He especially noted that the drug made their faces ghastly in death. I don't think he approved.

Subject: RE: BS: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 09:18 PM

Art -

Methedrine is a "brand name" for an amphetamine that you can still buy, with a prescription from your physician. The later methamphetamines are more "popular" now, although legitimate medical use is much less common for either than was the case in the 40s and 50s.

Narcanon gives a brief history of the amphetamines and methamphetamines. The gist of it is:

[quote]
First synthesized in 1887 Germany, amphetamine was for a long time, a drug in search of a disease. Nothing was done with the drug, from its discovery (synthesis) until the late 1920's, when it was seriously investigated as a cure or treatment against nearly everything from depression to decongestion.
In the 1930's, amphetamine was marketed as Benzedrine in an over-the-counter inhaler to treat nasal congestion (for asthmatics, hay fever sufferers, and people with colds). A probable direct reaction to the Depression and Prohibition, the drug was used and abused by non-asthmatics looking for a buzz. By 1937 amphetamine was available by prescription in tablet form.
Methamphetamine, more potent and easy to make, was discovered in Japan in 1919. The crystalline powder was soluble in water, making it a perfect candidate for injection. It is still legally produced in the U.S., sold under the trade name Desoxyn.
During World War II, amphetamines were widely used to keep the fighting men going (during the Vietnam war, American soldiers used more amphetamines than the rest of the world did during WWII). In Japan, intravenous methamphetamine abuse reached epidemic proportions immediately after World War II, when supplies stored for military use became available to the public.
In the United States in the 1950s, legally manufactured tablets of both dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine) and methamphetamine (Methedrine) became readily available and were used non medically by college students, truck drivers, and athletes, As use of amphetamines spread, so did their abuse. Amphetamines became a cure-all for such things as weight control and treating mild depression.
This pattern changed drastically in the 1960s with the increased availability of injectable methamphetamine. The 1970 Controlled Substances Act severely restricted the legal production of injectable methamphetamine, causing its use to decrease greatly.
[end quote]

There's quite a bit more on trends in usage, boiled down to - the vast majority of current use is illicit, and little commercial product is involved. Most of the street stuff is "home-brew" of variable, and often extremely dangerous, quality. It is extremely addictive, and a favored use is by pimps who, by fostering addiction can make their "crack whores" do just about anything - as long as they don't run out of the stuff. (But that's just street legend, of course.)

Illicit manufacture, usually by reduction of ephedrine (a common cold tablet) involves extremely toxic chemicals, many of which are commonly stolen from agricultural supply sources. Recent new laws in several states have made it almost as hard to buy ephedrine, epinephrine, or pseudoephrine hydrochloride (all common antihistamines) as to get a vistor's pass to the central vaults at Ft Knox.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM

Methamphetamine

Subject: RE: BS: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:45 PM

Poignant song, Art. I'd love to hear it.

Juneau's Buddy Tabor in his latest album, Hope , wrote this:

Methamphetamines (locally known as The Speed Whore)

Willie owns a body shop in this Oregon town
Business ain't good 'cause the lumber mill's down
They felled all the big trees, there's none left to cut
So he talks to some speed whore who's down on her luck

She comes by just to visit and eats half his lunch
But the meth's got her mind in a vise-like grip crunch
She's wild and she's crazy, she's out of her mind
She says, Willie, can you take me to the truck stop on Highway 99
Where the log trucks stand empty and the tweakers get high
She's selling her body so she can get by
As the demons of addiction sing her song in the night
She's got perfect pitch harmony, what a terrible fright

You know, Willie, what you see wasn't always this way
I was once a good woman who just went astray
These arms once held babies until the needle marks came
Now the weight of my sins drives me down and insane

Yeah, the log trucks sit empty and the mills have shut down
They're hiring at Walmart at the south end of town

In a trailer park meth lab they cook up her fate
My god, what a smell as the hour gets late
As the paranoid symptoms gnaw down through her mind
As her jaws lock in place and her teeth start to grind

Every Sunday Willie kneels down in the local Baptist church
Where he intercedes for sinners and all of their hurts
He prays for the woman with the needle in her arm
Who once held her babies and kept them from harm

Now Willie takes care of stray cats and tweaked out speed whores
God always seems to send them to his body shop door
But sometimes he cries, Why do you send them to me
Can't you feed your own stray cats and set your whores free

Yeah, the log trucks are empty and the mills have shut down
And they're hiring at Walmart at the south end of town

Subject: RE: BS: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:12 PM

Why give the Nazi organization a bad rap? It was the Japenese who developed used/abused meth before/during/after WWII. Nasty stuff, but I bet your brown eyed girl was a holy terror in bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM

Perhaps both? Anyway, Art's a big boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM

Perhpas this ought to be above the line?

Subject: BS: Methedrine Blues-a question
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 05:42 PM

About 1962 or 3, I knew a lady in Chicago who was, I eventually found out, shooting up what was called METHEDRINE back then. She was in bad shape, and the friendship ended quickly. But I wrote a song about it that I called Methedrine Blues.

I was told then that this speed stuff had been invented by Adolph Hitler's scientists to shoot up his pilots with.

Is there any truth to the possibility that all of the meth amphetamines go back to use in World War 2 ??

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is my old song, Methedrine Blues. I was about 22 when I wrote it.

If you ever have loved a brown eyed gal, then you know what I mean,
If you ever have loved a brown eyed gal, then you know what I mean,
The competion's hell when your own sweet gal is a slave to Methedrine.

It burns away your mind, love, it cuts away at your brain,
It burns away your mind, babe, it cuts away at your brain,
You try to say in a thousand ways, "Stay away from Methedrine."

You want to try to help, and you hope that it's not in vain, (vein)
You want to try to help, and you hope that it's not in vain,
She stays away for days and days--a slave to Methedrine.

Damn those men who sell that junk from behind their respectable blinds,
I say damn those men who sell that stuff from behind their respectable blinds,
I only wish they knew the damage they've done to a beautiful, beautiful mind.

repeat first verse