BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 11:49 PM

Presbyterian are not leftists, by any stretch of the imagination--but that really isn't the point--the point is that Joffe distorts to fiction what the Presbyterians are doing--which is to use their position as stock holders in several *American* companies to engage in a dialogue about the corporation's involvement in activities that escalate the violence in the area. Compare this, from the PCUSA website Responsibility Through Investment with the link above, before you draw any conclusions.

You should read it too, Martin, in case you haven't, and decide for yourself--

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 10:09 PM

The REASON the state of Israel was established is because there was a long term push by many to achieve just that by any and all means - and one can easily understand that the current residents wouldn't have been all that keen to be exiled...

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:45 PM

I'm not sure about this part.

"...where strife between Jews and Arabs had been rampant for decades."

Were they killing each other before the State of Israel was established? Do we have a comparison of the numbers of dead before and after?

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:21 PM

Georgiansilver, thanks for your thoughtful post on the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:57 PM

robomatic -- Bulldozer Diver Diva ??

I sure as hell hope you're not slagging Rachel Corrie there. But I suspect you are. That's a horrible thing to say.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 03:44 PM

I am not sure I would have survived, had I been a German in WWII, as I suspect I would have tried to be an Oscar Schindler, and I'm not sure I'd have been as clever. But that does not mean I hold an "if you're not for us, you're against us" attitude regarding ANY group.

I knew a woman once whose parents were from Israel and who defended Israel in all matters.."my country, right or wrong", and I could not get across to her that blind, unwavering, rubber-stamp approval of policies & decisions might do more harm than good, as it provides no litmus test when bad ideas are put forth in the heat of the moment.

I would really hate it if Israel were to suffer more than it already has from attacks based on hate and ignorance...but I would also hate it if they were 'win' based on similar attitudes from citizens & supporters. The Jewish people deserve relief from the centuries of persecution and a way to live safely, comfortably and with the respect of others. And all other ethnic groups should have those benefits also.

Lordy, I wish I knew how to make it 'fair' for all!

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 12:58 PM

Not only are the American Evanvelicals in sympathy but the majority of Evangelical Christians worldwide. I have been to Israel twice and have visited Yad Vashem, having heard stories of the holocaust but when the reality hits....man it hits. My sister worked alongside many Jews in Tel Aviv including survivors of the holocaust. Heartbreak is a word that lives on with the survivors.
My friend Jim, who I go to Romania with delivering Humanitarian aid, has also visited Auschwitz and still feels horror when he thinks of the place.
Many atrocities have been done 'in Gods name' but not always with Gods blessing.........
Thanks for the article Martin. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:59 AM

Robo, the scars of the holocaust are still way to fresh to not correlate what happens today and a mere 60 years ago. There are still way too many walking around with serial numbers engraved on them or their parents and grandparents to not serve as a reminder.

Thanks for the blue clicky, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 11:04 PM

Interesting advert, there. I would add that it's such a complicated overall situation, a lot like history, that it is impossible to always see black and white in these situations. Clearly the Nazis were the worst of the worst. Clearly present day evangelicals are 'friendly' enough but their expectations are rather extreme - that the end days are within reach, and the State of Israel is to play a role (in which the Jews are finally converted). Although there have been some noxious putative Christian movements to divest, hallow the name of the Bulldozer Diver Diva, and foster "don't buy from Israel" programs, I feel they are outnumbered by true efforts at understanding and rapprochement among Catholics and Mainline Protestants in American and abroad. I'm less sure about the Orthodox Christian Church (Russian and Hellenic) and various Islamic organizations, although I am hopeful and open to the possibilities.

One thing I don't like seeing Jews do is witness anti-Semitic actions in the United States and immediately harken back to European events such as pogroms and the Holocaust. Americans as a whole have been almost completely unwilling to fuel this kind of hatred, quite the reverse. When truly atrocious events such as the despicable torture of a Jewish youth as a Jew in the vicinity of many auditory witnesses over weeks as happened in a French housing project the past month, a real difference in the hate quotient is apparent between Americans and their overseas ancestors, the Europeans (although I cannot imagine this happening in Great Britain, either).

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 10:24 PM

Interesting article, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 09:42 PM

Here is a blue clicky thing for ya mate...

http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_97.html

Subject: BS: FLAME: True Friends of Israel
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 09:11 PM

Another great FLAME article/ad appearing in the Jewish press:

http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_97.html