BS: We need 3 planets

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 06:47 AM

Well LH I was thinking more of Hemorrhoids than asteroids as a suitable gift for Guest DB, followed by a large vindaloo perhaps?
Giok ☺

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Mo the caller
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 05:54 AM

We could cut our ecological foot print by turning off our computors and going into the garden to stand very still (anything else, like cutting the grass, or digging, might use resources, or disturb the wildlife) but we aren't going to.
Don't know the asnswer, but years ago I didn't join Friends of the Earth because I couldn't justify driving 10 miles to go to meetings. So I joined a dance club instead (only 8 miles away, but that led to another 35 miles away)

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 01:01 PM

Forget the asteroid, LH -- just toss him out into space. And don't waste money on a spacesuit.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:11 PM

We're reserving a nice barren little asteroid just for you, DB, and we will do the first test there.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 09:58 PM

Great idea send all the Scotch people to one and the muslims to another. We could then use these two hell holes to test nuclear stuff on.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:03 AM

"A mere trifle on the ecological/geological scale!"

oh, indeed! But if it's YOUR forest/income/scenery being affected, it rates kinda high on the personal scale.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 09:24 AM

Darn right! Bring it up to an even dozen!

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Sooz
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 08:25 AM

Use this link to calculate your ecological footprint. If everyone in the world had the UK standard of living we would need around 5 planets. If everyone wanted the standard enjoyed in the US it would be more. There are things we can do as individuals to make a difference (but who cares whats left when we are gone? :-))

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 06:34 AM

I thought when I clicked on this it would be about how we need:

Planet Marmite A
Planet Marmite B
and Planet Marmite c

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 04:54 AM

So we can all sit back and say 60-70 years, well I'll be dead by then anyway, so it doesn't matter to me!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 01:13 AM

"60-70 years"

A mere trifle on the ecological/geological scale!

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 07:59 PM

" dynamic, not static".....therefore?

PDQ...still, they were thriving because the beetle's reproduction was slowed by cold....thousands of acres are dying, and no matter what evolves to fill the niche, estimates are that it will take 60-70 years, if no other problems arise. The whole point being that 'other problems' often DO arise, and we need breathing room and options.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 07:50 PM

Remember that ecologies evolved to be dynamic, not static, like in a zoo...

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: pdq
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 06:53 PM

...minor point, Bill D.

The lodgepole pine is a short-lived variety. It's cones usually open only after being exposed to extreme heat, insuring that it will be the first conifer (within it's range) to grow after a fire. An orderly succession of other plant varieties usually follows. After a number of years, the lodgepole pines will be largely gone from that area.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 06:35 PM

"the person who catches the last cod gets the highest price. "

So what did the guy who cut down the last tree on Easter Island get?

Firewood! Boom! Boom!

It's a joke son!

Or is it?

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM

bruce...of course, 1 & 3...thanks..

"It ain't so much the resources; it's the distribution of resources."

*weary sigh*...I'd like a nickel for every time someone has said that in a way that 'suggests' that it is an answer. Little kids tell their mother to send their share of the mashed turnips to starving kids in Asia. Right...wrapped in what and

It - just - won't - work.      Naturally, ANY increase in effeciency is useful, but there is not enough transportation to send needed resources FROM source TO the deserving...and no simple way to determine where to send it first....and no way to continue that aid indefinitely. (It's artifical propping up and it is all worse if it ends..) Fishing, all over the world, is down and in danger. Oil is limited, minerals are mined out, topsoil is going..(Brazil), forests are being cut and replaced, IF they get replaced, with monoculture that is an unbalanced ecosystem.

(And warming is doing nasty things to trees (Lodgepole Pines)right in YOUR area, Peace..little beetles thriving.)

In most categories, there needs to be a margin for error and stores to get by lean times...'better distribution' just means we trade safety for 'getting by' awhile.

   It is SO easy to say "it hasn't happened yet", but I assume the last dozen Dodos and Great Auks thought "gee, it's work finding a mate, but it'll all work out."

sheesh...I gotta quit...I'm depressing myself..

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 04:37 PM

"This is the way the world will end, not with a bang but a whimper."

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 03:29 PM

It hardly matters what we do... One day, nothing will be able to live here....

When that day comes it MIGHT be the end of life (At least 'higher', so called sentient, tool using, self aware life) in our galaxy... maybe even out universe...

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 03:15 PM

so we need four planets - one to live on, one to plunder, one to pollute and one to reserve for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 03:12 PM

That I'm afraid Clinton is part of the problem, because it never got as bad as they said it would people think it won't ever happen, but it will.There are too many corroborative facts to back it up now.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:44 PM

Your grandfather said the same thing... and his before that... and his before that....

And ya know what? Life went on.....

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:41 PM

So when this rapid melting of the polar ice caps reaches it's foregone conclusion and large parts of New York London and Venice are underwater, the Maldives and New Orleans have disappeared altogether and the available land mass for habitation has shrunk, while the population to fill that land mass grows at it's present rate.
What will we do then?
When the rains continue to fail in India, and in Australia, and the deserts of Africa grow ever larger at the rate of 5 or more miles a year.
What will we do then?
When the present fuel reserves run out and we depend on other means to generate electricity what will we fly round the world in then, your average jumbo jet won't get off the ground on battery power.
What will we do then?
When all these wonderful ideas about new means of locomotion, and cheap means of x y or z don't grow enough food on the shrinking and impoverished soil, that is the bits that are not covered by people and their houses.
What will we do then?
It's not that bad yet, but it's getting closer and at an increasing speed, and when it eventually bites home, countries that are ignoring it now will start to panic.
I feel sad for my grandson and what he will have to face when he grows up in this greedy selfish world!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:27 PM

North America is what, 15% of the global population, and it consumes what, 85% of the resources?

(Those figures might be slightly exaggerated... but only slightly)

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:20 PM

It ain't so much the resources; it's the distribution of resources.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:09 PM

BillD,

You mean 1 and 3 will happen...

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:05 PM

*grin* "The glass is neither half-empty or half-full...it is the wrong size glass."

so...the Kalahari pygmies are the Chosen ones?

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:04 PM

Read Marshall T Savages book, "The Millineal Project"

Amazon.ca Listing Here

The Earth is capable of supporting a lot more people than most people give it credit for....

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:03 PM

OK, to settle things down a bit:

Ya gotcher Daily Planet and yer Planet of the Apes and yer parenting program: Planet Ahead.

As to Bill's last remark, we need smaller people.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 01:59 PM

both Amos & Clinton have important points...but which ultimately boil down to "larger bandaids", maybe with some antiseptic included. Great..I applaud it! Develop the better " system-engineering approach" and FIND those ignored resources....and be aware that there are finite limits to them.

Important concept: "Carrying capacity" The limit that a system can tolerate without collapse of major ecological components ...not easy to pin down precisely, but always there as a limit, whether temporary as to the current level of knowlege, or absolute. This is easy to see in places like Indian cliff-dwellings in arid country, or isolated places like Easter Island, but harder to grasp for the entire world.

The Earth will not support 47 trillion people, no matter WHAT is discovered.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 01:26 PM

We haven't even hardly begun to tap into the best resources this planet has to offer....

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 01:15 PM

Oh, ye of little faith.

It is not a matter of more resources, but different ones, and a system-engineering approach that uses the huge wads of energy and raw materials within reach but ignored, mostly because the "best" way is so often confused with the familiar way of doing anything. THe inertial burden of past solutions is huge. That's where the hurdle comes from, IMHO.

A

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 01:04 PM

We have no chance. Someone will always put self interest first, and nations are the worst for it. Just look at Bush's America. Does anyone think we can change the consumerist ethic of that country in time to make a difference to climate change etc?
These people only know one thing, the person who catches the last cod gets the highest price.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 12:57 PM

Mathematics:

It will require either,
1)Using fewer resources per person
2)Discovering more resources
or3)Reducing the number of people.

1) is only a bandaid, as they can only be reduced by so much.
2) is highly problomatic, and has finite limits.
3) seems to be the only solution, but would require Draconian measures currently abhorrent to much of the world.

What many fail to realize is that 1 AND 2 will happen, if not voluntarily, then automatically...and it won't be pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 12:18 PM

No we don't.. we just need to start using ours properly

Subject: RE: BS: We need 3 planets
From: MMario
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 12:11 PM

three planets sounds about right - one to live on, one to plunder for raw materials and one to contaminate with waste products.

You do mean per person, right?

Subject: BS: We need 3 planets
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 12:04 PM

Environmentalists say that at the rate we consume resources, we now want 3 planets to supply our needs.
How silly is this?
When will our leaders grasp the nettle, and start doing something about it?
The little things we do personally while they help will not provide a long term answer. It will require some form of compulsion to get everybody singing from the same hymn sheet!
Giok