No More SorchaBows....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: fiddler
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:24 AM

Sorcha,

Dreadful news, I don't think I'd be too happy. good luck in finding replacements. I use carbon fibre now but they would break just the same.

Happy bowless hugs

Andy

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:07 PM

Well, I do now know that PVC will NOT hold up to an 18 wheeler/empty stock trailer, but it only cost me $6. 'Should' hold up to a conveyer belt...can't think how to test that. WILL hold up to a normal car/truck.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:45 PM

Best of luck, Sorcha.
Aren't bureaucrats just the greatest advertisement for democracy/freedom/anarchy/despotism/pick an -ism?
Cleaning out an office recently I came across some PVC pipe that had been used as a mailing tube for Landsat prints... as an element in a thongaphone it would be approx D below middle C.

Foolestroup,
On the Ausfolk site recently (after my post above) there was some other chat about transporting instruments by air and dealing with/avoiding damage to them. I made similar comments on that site and decided to Google "Aerolyte Australia" and found they're still in West Heidelberg. I am assured that the Australian Folk Alliance website is setting up a collection of horror stories and preventative measures but I've been flat out like a lizard drinking and haven't been able to follow it up yet.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:10 PM

Well, I heard from them....they say that their 'investigation' shows that the damage did not happen on Their Watch...we'll see. Talking to Postmistress Tuesday morning. Right now, I can't even get my Insurance money back.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 06:33 PM

Thanks John, another great myth bites the dust.

The only way I can see to get a discussion on the relative merits of PVC pipe back onto a folk music thread is the mention that the 12mm diameter piping (the PVC sort is used as electrical conduit in Australia, and the black ABS/polythene stuff is used for garden/agricultural/horticultural water reticulation almost everywhere) is used for ad hoc wind instruments by various people. The best proponent by far would have to be Linsey Pollack (he of the musical carrot, kitchen-glove gaijda, gaffer tape & "Kev the roadie" fame) who gave a great set of worshops at this year's National Folk Festival (in Canberra) with such piping.

Great sounds, but much too narrow for Sorcha's bows. Although, if Sorcha used lots of his offcuts in a frame he could make a great 'thongaphone'.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 02:39 AM

Rowan -

I think the egg cartons on the wall may be at least partly mythic.

When my son's "rock band" played in a small room that I'd enclosed solidly in the basement, with egg cartons on all four walls and ceiling, and with limp carpet suspended in front of the egg cartons, with all doors and windows shut and where necessary provided with styrofoam plugs at least 5 inches thick
-
-
we still got complaints from neighbors up to 3 blocks away.

I don't think anyone could have detected an echo of any sort when they played - but of course they weren't recording.

The use of ABS for sewer/drain pipe in the US is apparently a matter of economics. The ABS is usually at least a bit cheaper than PVC of the same bore, and the ABS usually has a slightly - to significantly - thicker wall. ABS generally is used only for drain lines inside the structure, with clay, concrete, or cast iron still being preferred for "public sewers" (laterals and mains) so far as I know.

Some use is made of "plastic" conduit for wiring, but the stuff commonly found in the shops is a slightly different composition than the PVC, and generally is grey in color rather than white. What I've seen of it appears to be a "filled" plastic, probably for rigidity and heat resistance. It appears to be a thermoset rather than thermoplastic material like PVC, but that could be due to a powder filler. A vague recollection is that I've heard it called "PVA," possibly a "polyvinylacetate," although I can't give any assurance of accuracy on the material.

In many usages in the US, metal tubing is required for electrical conduit, both for conductivity and for heat resistance. Mostly thin-walled steel tube is used (with a terne plate coating?), but there is some usage of aluminum. There are few truly "national" standards, although there are "guidelines," so usage varies a lot by locality within the US.

John

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 12:55 AM

Foolestroup,
If you are in Victoria, check out Aerolyte in West Heidelberg. I think David Long has now retired but I know that they kept the important dimensions of every instrument for which they ever made a case, certainly until I left Melbourne. My brother is probably one of only two concertina players most Chewton locals have ever heard of and doesn't use the net. He used to play in Smith's Gully and the other concer player around Castlemaine used to play in Tipplers All.

John,
In Australia we don't use ABS pipe for sewerage in any of the states/territories I've lived in so I can't comment on it but for stormwater drainage, sewer (black water) and other (grey water) household drainage we use PVC of slightly different sizes so that stormwater pipes (used for rainwater catching) can't be connected to the others by mistake. In smaller diameters it's also used for electrical conduit. But you're right about the other stuff. And one advantage is that its surface is slippery enough so that it would probably escape conveyor clutches better than the cardboard map tubes you often see.

Your comment about corrugated cardboard and airdrops reminded me that, years ago (we're talking 1960s now), bushwalkers who wished to spend extended times in SW Tasmania were allowed to send in airdrops of dehydrated food. Jim English was the favoured pilot out of Cambridge (the general aviation airport at Hobart) and he'd take the door off his Cessna (or whatever it was) and fly off with someone in the back who, on instruction, would heave the item out while Jim flew over the drop-site.

In the Mountaineering Club I belonged to at uni, the father of one climer had been responsible for getting medical supplies into the Kokoda Track during WW II and found that the best way to do it was to get large cardboard map tubes (they didn't have PVC pipe then), attach tin fins on the back, solder up a tin "nose" on the pointy end and fill the front with egg cartons. Egg cartons in Australia are generally papier mache with the usual humps & hollows for the eggs giving a three-dimensional 'crush' opportunity. A swag of these could be loaded into the bomb bay of a suitable bomber and dropped very accurately; even glassware was protected by the egg cartons. Using this info we packed a couple of layers of egg carton around the 20 litre (4 gallon to UK residents, 5 gallon to US resident) drum in which the tucker had been packed. This protected the tucker from even a direct hit (80+ knots airspeed from 200') onto a large rock. Of course, now that we're ecologically sensitive we don't do airdrops into Tassie but John's right about the crush resistance of cardboard in such shapes.

These days, the only other musical reference I have for egg cartons (just to cope with accusations of thread creep) is that a room that has its walls and ceiling lined with them is almost completely anechoic and (especially if painted black) a bit of a status cymbal for kids' garage bands

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:59 PM

And if someone tries to drive a forklift over that PVC tube and shatters it - it's gonna be hard to pretend that it didn't happen... maybe then they will just 'lose it' - no, they'd have to pay on insurance for that...

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: jeffp
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

I think you made a correct decision. The setup you describe will take care of >99% of situations. The insurance will take care of the rest. If you ever ship something that is so irreplaceable that even insurance won't cover the possible loss, then you can re-think your strategy.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:15 PM

Yes John. I knew that but Ta anyway

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:43 PM

PVC pipe is the white stuff that's sold for "potable water" and is used in supply lines to bring water to your tap. It is a little more "brittle" than ABS, but is pretty strong. It is available in a range of "thicknesses" but "Schedule 40" I believe is the most common and should be sufficient.

If you intend to glue a cap on one end, you will get best results using the PVC Pipe Dope sold at the lumber yard or hardware store. If you want a "pressure tight waterproof joint" the use of the "Purple Primer" sold at the same places is recommended (but be aware that it stains everything it gets on - PERMANENTLY). For a shipping can you should be able to omit the primer.

ABS pipe is the black stuff used for sewer and waste lines. It is a little more flexible than PVC, but overall strength isn't significantly different. One reason that ABS is not used for "potable water" is that it often outgasses residual chemicals for fairly long times after manufacture. For many uses this isn't objectionable, but the "delicacy" of your bow hairs might make one suspicious of its suitability here. There is a separate ABS Cement at the lumber yard for gluing a cap on the black stuff (and which quite incidentally is an excellent "glue" for lots of ABS body parts on recent model automobiles).

With either type of pipe, once one end is stoppered with a glued on cap, the slip on cap that you push in place on the other end can seem to have become "permanently attached" and a good grip and agressive torque may be required to get one off after it's been on for a while. (On pipes I use for tool and part storage, I usually drill a small hole in the cap on the loose end. A blast from the "sweeper nozzle" on your handy shop air compressor, aimed in the general direction of the hole, usually will lift the cap right off.

Fittings to provide a threaded end so that a screw on (or screw in) cap/plug can be used are available, but add some bulk to the can.

John

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:25 PM

I see you have got a solution for the moment.

PVC pipe will eventually shatter - ABS pipe will normally plastically deform under pretty much the same loadings, and for most of the expected loadings may not crush entirely, especially if internally packed with bubble wrap. If you can only get blackpipe, then painting may be an idea.


Rowan,

since you are a guest, I cannot PM you - I have a couple of small Piano accordions that currently live in small suitcases that, depending on the cost, might prefer to live in such a case - would like to be able to contact your brother.

I had endless hassle trying to find a suitable case to carry my whistles, especially the Low Whistles - I finally found a 'sports bag' in a fairly rigid form made of flexible 'woven' plastic that was intended for carrying modern wide head tennis racquets.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:48 PM

Oh well.......

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:40 PM

Ya... you got hosed there

:-)

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM

Almost makes up for my $46 string winder.....smile

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:37 PM

"And yes, I drove the car over it!!!!"

Cool... now try a FexEx truck or similar over it.... Lets find it's breaking point!

:-)

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM

Got the pipe 6" longer than a bow....will GLUE one cap on, mark other end OPEN HERE. Also, MAY BE OPENED FOR INSPECTION. DO NOT TOUCH BOW HAIR
etc. Caps are VERY tight, but will duct tape the other.


It's Interior Diameter is 3.5". Big enough for 2 bows wrapped in bubble wrap.And yes, I drove the car over it!!!!

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 06:06 PM

I'm pleased Sorcha got it sorted. But JohnInKansas' comments about specialist packagers is 'right on the money' if one wants to go into such transport in a big way.

My brother (also a dance caller, lagerphonist and concertina player - duet in his case) has made a relatively comfortable living by making specialist boxes to transport works of art. The company rings him up when they want one and he has to make it to withstand penetration by forklifts and all that sort of stuff. I might add that I think someone who gets his rocks off making boxes will probably attract the attention of all sorts of amateur psychologists but they're excellent boxes and he lives in (rustic) comfort.

He got started partly by wanting a sturdy box for his concertina. He lived near a small factory (Aerolyte) that made scientific instrument cases to order. David Long did a 'special' for his concer, I got one as well, and since then Aerolyte has made cases for just about every type of musical instrument polayed by folkies in Australia. He even made one for my microscope for Tom Loy to use on Utzi the Iceman and it withstands savage attack from sledgehammers wielded by large blokes.

But none of them are as cheap as PVC pipe. Glad you got it sorted.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:25 PM

6 bucks ain't bad at all......

How long a piece of PVC did you buy? What diameter?   Did the post office suggest a good way to seal it so that it doesn't get opened in transit?

Did you buy a smaller piece of he PVC to do your own stress tests on? Stand on it... jump on it.... run over it with the car....

That's where half the fun of 'design' is!

:-)

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:18 PM

I went to the hardware store...but PVC tube, at least 1/4" thick and 2 end caps....took it to Post Office...they said it was quite legal, and quite legal on the airlines. For $5. Weighs 3 lbs.....and should I ever want to ship bows to that shop again, it will cost me $6 in postage....PLUS insurance....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:39 PM

In most areas, one should be able to find a local or nearby "box manufacturer" who probably makes packaging to suit your realistic needs. As a side comment to redirect thinking - the shock absorbing materal used to absorb landing impact when they drop a 60 ton tank out of an airplane is essentially nothing but corrugated paper. Properly applied, paper and/or "cardboard" is a very versatile material.

"Map tubes" made of impregnated paper probably can be found that are stronger than PVC pipe, although the PVC is actually pretty rugged. A problem with the cylindrical shape of either is providing proper suspension of something as irregularly shaped as a bow inside the cylindrical shape - and with making the package look "legitimate" in our current political climate. I would suggest NOT using the alternative ABS pipe since "black" just naturally looks suspicious to may people, and I belive it may be a little heavier and more flexible(?).

Improvising is fine for a one-shot shipment, but if you're going to be making more than a few shipments of similar items, getting the advice of "experts" probably is worthwhile.

1. People who make packaging containers and materials may have something ready made or may be able to make a specialized container more economically than you might expect.

2. The shippers - if you can get to someone other than the clerk at the counter - may have recommendations that account for peculiarities in their handling methods.

3. Others who ship similar items may be willing and able to provide comments on their experience and methods.

4. Your friendly insurance agent may be able to advise you on how to determine a best level of protection/compensation for yourself and those with whom you deal against "acceptable loss" in shipping - and may(?) be willing to help even if you don't need insurance other than provided by shippers.

Of course, when one consults with advisors, there is the problem of separating the "leaders in their own time" from the "leaders in their own mind," so you'll still have to choose whom to believe and how much to believe of what each "expert" says, and incorporate all the advice into your own solution.

When you find the perfect solution, you may find shipping shipping containers more profitable than shipping anything in the shipping containers, as specialized containers for peculiar items is a relatively untapped market. Of course then you'll have to start all over with market analysis, advertising, pricing, manufacturing - - a whole new bunch of "experts" ready to offer advice.

(There is a well developed market for a few kinds of things, and a small "gun case" would be ideal, perhaps, but the only ones I've seen are a bit too large - and probably too expensive. A look at what's at a local shop might provide some good ideas.)

John

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:04 PM

"I really don't know if PVC pipe would survive the treatment that Sorcha describes."

One cannot plan for every unforeseen accident.... Nothing is going to prevent all kinds of accidental damage.... I suspect that IF you're even allowed to ship it, PVC pipe is about as strong as you're ever going to need in all but the most catastrophic of circumstances.... Steel pipe is going to be very heavy and cost WAY too much to ship....



"I guess you've never made a pipe bomb Clinton."
Shows what you know.... Though what that has to do with anything other than flaming I cannot imagine....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:42 AM

You know Bert, I like that way of packing it in foam, but... where do you find the explosives monkey to unpack it?

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:30 AM

Next time Sorkieluv, just drop by with your bows and I'll make you a case that will survive baggage handling

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:08 AM

I'll figure out something....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 12:10 AM

I really don't know if PVC pipe would survive the treatment that Sorcha describes.

An alternative would be to buy a suitcase of suitable size (one of those plastic ones with rounded corners) They only cost a dollar or two at thrift stores
get a couple of cans of urethane foam
spray the bottom of the case and cover it with polythene film
press the bows into the film just a little while the foam is still wet
cover again with another sheet of polythene
spray on more foam and close the lid

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 11:54 PM

Steel pipe = "pipe bomb" was my first thought too but I let it go. Given JohnInKansas' details of weights I thought I'd measure up a "PVC pipe" model that already has airline stickers on it and no damage.

It's 850mm (33.5", to you imperial measure users) long, 90mm (3.5") wide and, with a foam plug in it left over from whatever was last transported in it, weighs just under 800grams (1.76 lb); one of its ends is permanently sealed and the other end has a threaded cap. I think this is large enough for most bows but, if I were trying to protect a fiddle bow I'd probably wrap the bow in polyethylene packing (like museums and some computer screen manufacturers use) to make a snug fit inside a length of 38mm (1.5") PVC conduit and put that inside the 90mm PVC pipe with the usual foam packing between the two pipes. Gaffer tape would prevent the threaded cap from undoing but allow inspection.

I don't know the USPS rates (too lazy to check out JohnInKansas' clicky) but I reckon it'd cost less than anything with metal pipes and not arouse as much suspicion. A lot more transparent to X-rays, too.

Cheers, Rowan.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 11:45 PM

Empty vessels make most noise, Bert...

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Bert
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 11:33 PM

I guess you've never made a pipe bomb Clinton.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 11:12 PM

My American uncle, back in the 50s, had a tubular aluminium fishing rod carry case - he left it here when he went back - it's in my shed. Six feet long.

Are such things still available?

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:52 PM

I had the same thought Clinton did--mailing steel pipes with the ends sealed isn't likely to inspire confidence in any shipper who has to handle it.

SRS

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: open mike
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 09:22 PM

are these bows coming to you or going from you, Sorcha??!!
good luck...

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 07:48 PM

I'm going to the lumberyard tomorrow....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: jeffp
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 07:42 PM

Last year I bought a fishing rod kit. The rod blank came in a length of PVC pipe just longer than the blank. The USPS delivered it in perfect condition.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM

Don't tell, but I found a Find at the music store in Cheyenne today....OLD permambuco bow with great action, on consign for only $100! I reserved it!!!! A loaner if nothing else...

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 12:40 PM

"it's way too short for pool cue..."
Pool cues come apart in the middle.......

" Get a length of steel pipe with threaded ends and buy a screw on cap for each end."
So it looks like a big pipe-bomb... ya... that'll be easy to ship... especially in todays world.... *rollseyes*

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 03:22 AM

On surface a steel pipe sounds like a good idea, however my fiddle bow will not fit into a 1" diameter hole, so at least a 1-1/4 ID pipe would be needed. That's not commonly available in my area, so it would probably be a special order. Minimum wall thickness for common pipe would be very close to 1/8." My bow would need a 30" long pipe to allow any end padding.

That's about 16 cubic inches of steel, or about 5 pounds. Screw on end caps will add another half pound for two caps in common style.

If you took the "easy out" and used the more common 1.5" pipe, the available wall thickness for what's easy to get increases slightly; but calculating at the same 1/8" thick, your pipe is now 9.5 pounds (with end caps) all by itself.

Using the USPS Rate Calculator:

From my middle of the US location in Kansas, to New York or to Los Angeles, the lighter 5.5 pound pipe would mean paying about $32 postage for "Express" delivery which is the closest one can get to "First Class Mail" for an item of this size. Parcel Post, which estimates 6 days in transit is about the cheapest thing available from USPS, at just over $10 just for the pipe. The larger pipe would be about $40 Express, and just over $13 for the slow parcel post.

There might be an additional problem with something looking like a steel pipe when they xray to check for "suspicious packages" - especially if "hidden" inside a suitcase as has been suggested.

(Postal inspectors have virtually no sense of humor.)

John

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 02:50 AM

Bert's got the right idea about shapes but there's a few other comments I could make, even taking into account his "Image a small airport with just twenty gates." Sigh. My local airport has only one gate and no conveyors, but I do have to send fragile things both interstate and internationally.

Australia Post sells a series of packaging shapes, one of which is a long cylinder best used for rolled maps. I use a length of PVC drain pipe (100 mm 'sewer' or 90mm 'grey water') for long & narrow fragiles (similar to bows), as these sizes have screw-on end caps with O-rings that properly seal the contents. On the only occasion I've had to send something fragile that was thin but wide in the other two dimensions (Aboriginal bark paintings) I got a couple of bakers' delivery breadcrates (lightweight but strong and with limited flexibility) and cut their sides down. Using some fencing wire as hinges (and fastening clips) for the two 'clamshells' the whole shebang worked a treat. Perhaps its daggyness protected it from the abuse usually directed at the unusual but it seemed to cope with conveyor belts rather well, as it was similar in size and shape to other baggage. And it only cost me some elbow grease. You could easily fir the 90mm PVC pipe into such a contraption.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 02:41 AM

Take it from the voice of experience, Bill D's mystery case is the standard (probably fairly cheap(?)) carry-case sold for jointed pool/billiard cues.

The "slant" of the divider is so that the big end of the butt half can go on one end, while the mid-diameter small end of the butt and big end of the tip (both the same diameter) splits the middle at the other end, with the small tip back up by the big butt. With the cue unscrewed at the joint in the middle, the case leaves just enough room at one end for a chalk cube, or sometimes two.

I have used one as a make-shift case for a viola bow, but it's not a particularly good fit on much of anything musical.

If it's in good shape, last time I looked the going rate for a new case of the type was about $18 (US) - probably higher by now. If it's one of the "extra sturdy" one might get to around $35 for something similar, so it was a bargain at the price paid. Learning to play the game so as to have a personal use for it could be "expensive" if one goes to the wrong parlor...

John

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Bert
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 01:19 AM

I would go with the steel tube and pack it diagonally in a suitcase or cardboard box with loads of packing.

Get a length of steel pipe with threaded ends and buy a screw on cap for each end.

Any odd shape is likely to confuse baggage handling equipment which is designed mainly for suitcases.

Baggage handling conveyor design presents several serious problems to the designer. Image a small airport with just twenty gates. Your bag arrives at one gate and has to be transferred to another. This involves being shipped to a central conveyor matrix which has to change the bag to the conveyor going to the other gate.

To do this they have a device, euphemistically called a pusher, which hits the bag with a heavy chunk of steel and sends it flying onto the next conveyor. This has to happen very quickly because it has to get out of the way of the next bag coming along the conveyor.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM

no...it's way too short for pool cue....it's bow sized.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: open mike
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 09:20 PM

probably for pool cue or que...
but looks like it might work well for bow.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM

I just remembered I had this. It seems to be a standard bow case. Found it on a walk last fall on someone's pile of trash. Would it be of any use? It seems in good shape, top is padded....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 08:35 PM

So, WHAT do I DO?????? Other than learn to re hair bows myself????

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: LilyFestre
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 08:32 PM

I will NEVER do business with FedEx again. Whenever things are shipped to us FedEx, they have to call for directions...funny how the USPS finds us daily and how UPS never has a problem. In addition to that, one time the FedEx truck pulled down our driveway and while turning around (I saw the entire thing from the kitchen window) tipped over our dumpster and ran over my mountain bike. Trash was all over the yard and my new bike was wrecked. After much debate, they fixed the bike and sent someone over to pick up the trash (a few days later) but we had picked it up the day it happened, DUH. Then yet ANOTHER time, they had my diabetic supplies but couldn't find the house so they were going to wait until Monday...this was Friday night. I called and explained that it was medical and the lady fussed with me so much that I told her I'd be happy to come pick up my package (50+ miles away) but that she should know that she would be dealing with a diabetic with levels running in the 350+ zone and I likely wouldn't be pleasant. She didn't say anything so I said goodnight and figured I'd be out of luck until Monday. My husband and I went out for dinner and came home to find my package waiting on the porch...gee...they found the house after all! Nope, no FedEx for us.

Michelle

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 08:22 PM

I will never use UPS again - they damage stuff shipped from US. Never had a problem with USPS - which goes to Aust Post here.

A piano accordion had been drop kicked so hard that the box was crushed - and the bass buttons had been forced by the impact to jam together.

The guy refused to accept that even the box had been damaged - refused to pay insurance to get it fixed - fortunately not a major hassle.

They don't even have an office in Queensland - all done from Sydney -then private contractors to Brisbane.

fedex probably has no agent here either.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 07:05 PM

LOL...thanks John
And Linn

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 06:51 PM

We've had reasonably good luck with most of the mainline shippers, but there are some differences we've noted. None of them can guaranteed that there will never be any shipping damage or loss; so insurance of course is recommended on high value and/or fragile stuff.

Both FedEx and UPS have their own air fleets, so in most cases when you ship with one of them it at least doesn't get mixed in with "passenger luggage" of unknown kinds. In most cases, nothing in a UPS or FedEx shipment should EVER be handled by anyone other than their own employees. (There are of course exceptions.)

USPS in some areas does have enough traffic to charter dedicated planes, but in places where the amounts being shipped are smaller, their shipments may be just in space available on scheduled airlines, and may be handled - moved in containers through loading areas - by persons employed by the sched airlines or by the airports. Generalizations are dangerous, and usually unfair, but I'll risk saying:

"I have less faith in the benefit package that airline/airport employees receive than in what the dedicated UPS and FedEx folk are offered to purchase their conscientious performance."

In any normal operations, one would expect the shipping agent, whether FedEx, UPS, or USPS to "containerize" so that there would NEVER be a reason for an individual item to be moved on one of the "luggage conveyors" that are the abominable curse of travelers. In order to damage an item in a shipment, they'd have to crush a whole container - which is not impossible, but probably fairly rare.

We've had a very few minor "missed delivery dates" with UPS, but not enough to say it's a general problem. We usually use FedEx for small packages where assured on-time delivery is needed; but rates favor UPS for anything bulky or heavier than a small book so we'll use them and allow for an extra day or two. We've sent very little USPS, so I "don't have much of an impression" (note - read both ways?) on them.

The only absolute guaranties I can offer, based on experience are:

1. Marking something "FRAGILE" doubles the odds it will be crushed, mangled, bent, shattered, and/or polluted with strange smelling but unidentifiable "foreign materials."

2. Marking something "SPECIAL HANDLING" absolutely assures that the shipment will not arrive at the intended destination. It may be "found" elsewhere later(?) but delays are assured.

3. Marking something "DO NOT BEND" is fairly certain to result in received the item folded in half.

The "safest" shipment, if there can be said to be one, is packaged to look like every other package, with clear labels, but with absolutely NO DISTINGUISHING MARKINGS that might attract special attention from anyone handling it. The packaging must, of course, be capable of protecting the contents from "normal handling," which can be pretty rugged.

We all hope of course that you'll get a fair monetary compensation for the lost bows. I don't think they're likely to offer anything in the way of "punitive damages for pain and suffering," so we'll all chip in lots of sympathy - mine is on the way.

John

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: LilyFestre
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 06:34 PM

CH-

Make a trip to a violin shop where you can try out different bows, that's the only way you are going to be able to feel the differences for yourself and find out what YOUR preferences are. The better shops will let you take 3 or 4 bows home with you to play at your leisure and comfort...then you return them and buy one if you wish, if not, you've gained some insight into bows. :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM

OK....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 05:44 PM

All information is helpful.. I'm just not sure I have much in the way of context to put it in yet....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM

CH....feel free to post the PM if you think it will help anyone. Did they help YOU?

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 05:19 PM

You need a post office scale to weigh it on.....grams prob.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:13 PM

Sorry the news wasn't better Sorcha. I'd hoped for your sake they had exagerated the damage. And I hope they compensate fully after all you packed them properly they are at fault.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:08 PM

What does is weight? I donno... I could probably throw it a country mile....

I have nothing to compare it to.....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:07 PM

Oh yes.....the 'camber'.....bow should have a slight 'arc' towards the hair......too little and you have no action, too much, and you can't get far enough from the hair to get a good bite on the strings....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:04 PM

PM sent...this is a PS.....what does it weigh? I prefer the heaviest bow I can find....almost as much weight as a viola bow, but that is personal preference.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:57 PM

No rush, sorch...

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:57 PM

OK...give me a bit, CH

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: GUEST,LilyFestre
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:52 PM

Hey Sorcha,

    My husband builds bamboo fly rods and ships them in either a steel tube (on request) or a PVC pipe, wrapped in tons of bubble wrap and sealed ends...never had a problem with the rods getting broken. And of course, ALWAYS insure such packages!

Good luck!

Michelle

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:49 PM

Somoen who KNOWS has already TOLD me.... I want to know how to KNOW for myself....

Don't GIVE me a fish, Sorch.....

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:46 PM

The Denver airport almost didn't open because the super-complex luggage conveyer system kept sputtering and dumping luggage all over the place. Who's to say it is close to ok even now?

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:45 PM

By getting someone who KNOWS to play with it.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:44 PM

Then it's not likely to happen again is it? Hardly a reason to over-react in such a manner....

Accidents happen.... and nothing is gonna be proof against all of them.....

I'm TOLD by the girl who loaned me the fiddle I have that the bow I have sucks.... how would I know the difference???

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:33 PM

Yes.....violin bows.....Well, it WAS 1st class......gets put on an AIRPLANE to fly to Maryland.......sheesh. I'm not sure even PVC would have held up to this.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM

One assumes these are fiddle bows????

What does the government have to do with Denver Airport?   Nothing....

Ummmm.... There's a place where one can buy bulk guitar strings.... if you buy enough of them, they throw in a rigi9t plastic tube with a carry strap attached.... I wonder if maybe you could approach them, buy a tube or 3.... Then ship the bows in those, providing pre-paid postage so that the recipian could ship the empty tube back to you?????   

No pic., but url....
http://www.stringthis.com/ststtu.html

Or how about this? Make your own tube out of PVC pipe fittings.... include return shipping or, tack the cost of the PVC onto the price of the bow????

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:22 PM

Yes...Pernambuco, wrapped in bubble wrap, then inside 1/2" or so thick cardboard tube.....I've shipped bows all over the country in this tube, loaned for other people to use...never had a problem.

It went thru Denver Airport....looks like either a fork lift ran over it or it got caught in a conveyer belt.....NEXT time (after I work up my courage) it will be a STEEL bow case sent by either FedEx or UPS. The gubmint has handled my LAST vauable property.

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 02:52 PM

That's a Real Sod Sorcha !

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Cruiser
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:57 PM

Were they Pernambuco?!

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:54 PM

Sorcha Bows???

Subject: RE: No More SorchaBows....
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:53 PM

How do you package them for shipping, Sorcha?
The ones we've received from Southwest Strings, come in bow cases. We got three bows to look at, and sent back the two we didn't want - everything worked very smoothly. I think we shipped them UPS.
-Joe-

Subject: No More SorchaBows....
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:49 PM

Well, the US Postal Service and Denver Airport managed to smash them both to smithereens......Postmistress was quite cooperative and will do her best to help me get full replacement costs on them. I just sat there and bawled....Thank you, Republic Airlines......