Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:23 AM

Not really singular and plural, more like discrete and amorphous(?)

Fewer is lots of individual items like raindrops
Less is something indivisible like water

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: pavane
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 08:22 AM

Tesco didn't even get the ENGLISH right for that one (Lice or less), so what chance did they have with Welsh?

It should be 10 items or FEWER.

Rule:
LESS is singular, like LESS WATER
FEWER is plural, like FEWER PEOPLE or ITEMS

The opposite, MORE, is both singular and plural which may explain the confusion.

And I find a good rule with language translation tools like BABELFISH is to translate the output back into the original language. It's not often right!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: sian, west wales
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:00 PM

Gwenan found it for me! It's in the Cerdd Dant Society publication, 'Cainc y Delyn II'. If it's still needed (accordiongirl seems to have disappeared?) I'll see if I can get hold of a copy.

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 12:00 PM

I've heard back from one of our harpists, Gwenan Gibbard, who says she's pretty sure that it's in a cerdd dant tune book - Dafydd Roberts, Telynor Mawddwy - that she has somewhere. She'll look tonight. That fits: ceinciau (pl of cainc) are the harp tunes which are used for singing cerdd dant.

Gwenan works (and records) for Sain Records . I see that they've got the bulk of their catalogue available for downloading now (iTunes) with a goal of getting it all up before long.

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 09:41 AM

Yep, Tesco's in Wales advertised 'caws Cymraeg', that is, "Welsh speaking cheese" and had a till for people with 10 eitem neu lleu, that is, 10 items or lice.

I was just reading about the New Year's well-water custom and associated song from Pembrokeshire with the burden, "Sing levy dew the water and the wine". The question is, is levy dew "llef i Dduw" (exclaiming to God) or the French, "lever Dieu"? The French is entirely plausible, given the social history of South Pembrokeshire.

Perhaps the 'folk process' is even more inclined to happen, and more rapidly, where songs, stories, et al move between linguistic communities.

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 09:07 AM

I agree about tune/air. But the title (which I found on the harper's site) seems to have been used on at least 2 cds. (She may well have taken it from one of them).

As for flags, I can believe that - I once looked over a Spanish translation for a leading supermarket's wine department where glasses (for drinking) had been translated into Spanish using the word for spectacles. And that had been done by a commercial translation company!

Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:03 AM

True enough, re: the Mabinogion. In 'Cainc y Medelwr' it is certainly 'strain/air' and to translate it as 'branch' is ... OK - mildly misleading.    The Reaper's Strain/Air makes sense; The Reapers Branch doesn't.

But you are COMPLETELY correct to say that, if someone is using 'Branch', one needs to know about it, for googling purposes.

It strikes me that someone didn't ask a Welsh speaker for a translation, just went to a dictionary. Never a very good idea. I remember an alternative theatre company of some standing coming to a town near here for a week's residency. Acknowledging that it was an area with a high percentage of Welsh speakers, they had their marketing person (a Welsh learner) translate their leaflets. They had quite a good turn-out for the opening parade through the town. The locals were curious to see them 'process up the high street waving bright paving stones'.

(llechi = paving stones or, alternatively, FLAG stones. Get it?)

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:39 AM

Or metaphorically as a division as in the usual translation of the title of the Mabinogion. It wasn't the translation per se I was bothered about, more the alternative English title to use to try and find the tune.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 06:33 AM

'Cainc' can be translated in branch, but only in a botanical context. In music, it is 'strain' as in 'tune' or 'air'.

It isn't in the 19th century collection "Welsh Airs" either. I don't recognize it outright from the above link but I'm not an instrumentalist and there are a lot of tunes which I haven't come across. I'll ask around.

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 05:46 AM

Harpist Fiona McGee and she translates it as The Reaper's Branch. You can find CD References to that title, but I can't see a melody anywhere. There is a sample at Amazon Canada here: Voyager Series: Celtic Harp

Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden/Cainc y Medelwr
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 04:36 AM

I can't find it in Blodau'r Grug, Cadw Twmpath or Alawon John Thomas (the latter with over 400 tunes of the 18th century). I'll check Alawon fy Ngwlad later on.

It sounds like a tune, rather than a song; I usually think of 'cainc' as referring to a harp or crwth tune, but I may be wrong. The Welsh translates as "The Strain of the Reaper".

Can you tell us where you found it and, if possible, the Welsh words?

With luck, Dr Price will see this and have some ideas. If not, and if you give me a couple of days, I can send out an e-mail to our musicians and see if anyone knows anything.

sian

Subject: Tune Req: I am a Young Maiden
From: GUEST,accordiongirl
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 12:43 AM

Hi!
I'm looking for the melody of a Welsh tune called Cainc y Medelwr, or "I am a Young Maiden".
The first lines are: I am a young maiden that oft has been told/I should try to get married before I'm too old
If anyone knows that tune, please help me out.
Thanks!