BS: anger - addictive?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 08:22 PM

You may be a victim of senile agitation

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:41 PM

What amazes me is that there are those who prioritize the lifestyle over the child.

The other thing is that I had the realisation that if my daughter deserves better, then perhaps I do too.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:36 PM

... or flight. I fought a lot in the lower grades. I kinda enjoyed it but a part of my mind (the "Super Ego" in Freudian terms, no doubt) would cooly look at the situation and I would think, "This is really something stupid I'm getting myself into." About the third time I got my nose broken, I decided to start listening to that inner voice. After all, it was smarter than the part of me that thought fighting was fun!

lox, isn't it amazing how something like a darling baby daughter can re-prioritize your life? In the 12 step madel this would be your "Higher Power" though I am disinclined to use their nomenclature. Rather its when one gains the right perspective everything else lines up behind it. You can go on and find deeper, more general principles than the frail and temporary (regardless of how precious) conditions of life. Once you have a foundation under you, you want it to be as firm as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:52 PM

"As you become angry your body's muscles tense up. Inside your brain, neurotransmitter chemicals known as catecholamines are released causing you to experience a burst of energy lasting up to several minutes. This burst of energy is behind the common angry desire to take immediate protective action. At the same time your heart rate accelerates, your blood pressure rises, and your rate of breathing increases. Your face may flush as increased blood flow enters your limbs and extremities in preparation for physical action. Your attention narrows and becomes locked onto the target of your anger. Soon you can pay attention to nothing else. In quick succession, additional brain neurotransmitters and hormones (among them adrenaline and noradrenaline) are released which trigger a lasting state of arousal. You're now ready to fight."

From: http://mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=5805&cn=116

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:42 PM

Guest,

I am more than satisfied with your response and I agree that it is a crime that the Stigma attached to mental health issues and addiction means that they are politically ineffective issues uppon which to campaign or win favour from the public with.

In this regard, they come second to political trump cards like Law and order/paranoia.

There are more votes in telling the ignorant that you'll save them from druggies and schizo's than there are in telling them that you're going to invest more money in trying to succesfully rehabilitate addicts and the mentally Ill.

Consequently (here in the UK), when the health service needs to be savaged to free up more cash, the first target is mental health. Wards closed, staff sacked and initiatives undermined.

It makes me extremely angry when I think about it.


To Refresh my original idea in my mind, I find that the thought was inspired by the following phenomenon.

I had gone through a nightmare and whilst caught up in it I had found that I was becoming more and more susceptible to feelings of rage. A natural enough state of affairs you will no doubt agree.

That rage kind of became normality while my despicable situation continued. Again, a fairly predictable reality.

The weird bit was that after the situation ended, and the rage simmering in me began to subside, I began to feel a craving for it to come back and I would artificially induce that state of mind by focusing on a thought that affected me that way.

I felt a craving for a physical sensation that I expected the feeling of rage to induce.

I used to smoke cigarettes - about 30 a day for about 15 years, but gave up when my daughter was born two and a half years ago. I didn't cut down or phase them out, I simply didn't ever have one more cigarette. I never will now either, because I feel 1000% healthier in every possible way.

I felt the craving physically like a tingle in my scalp, especially when there were other smokers around, but like slag I was simply not interested in having any more.

Interestingly, giving cigarettes up never caused me to be irritable, in fact the first 6 months after giving up were about the greatest of my life as I was completely overcome with love for my daughter and every day with her was heaven (as is still the case today).

Anyway - so I am qualified to assert that I know how a physical/chemical addiction feels. I have also had minor skirmishes with various "recreational" drugs when I was younger and I am therefore also aware of the power that chemicals have, both psychologically and physically.

I can state with absolute honesty that I caught myself one day recently deliberately inducing an artificial sate of rage in myself so as to somehow satiate a physical craving. The thing that stopped me though was again the thought of my little one, for thought she has never had any form of rage directed at her, she must put up with me while I walk around with a cloud over my head, impatient to and intolerant of otherwise innocent behaviour on her part.

The other thing I noticed was that I was having to induce more intense feelings of rage to satiate the craving and that that process was giving me a bloody headache.

Reading this back, I'm actually laughing out loud at myself. I've caricatured myself in such a way that I'm now seeing me as some kind of dastardly dick character from the wacky races.

Anyway, I now enjoy not having a headache so much that, withh a smile in the direction of my litle girl, I consciously and calmly reject the invitation to rage that my brain gives me from time to time.

I feel free.

I have to say thugh iin all seriousness that the craving did feel chemical.

Probably comppletely unsupportable, but I felt worth a shot :')

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

Again, I believe "loss of control" to be the hallmark of addiction. It is the behavior that takes over control (which is to say that the addicted person is out of control). The alcoholic hides booze here and there so he can get to it quickly and easily and UNSEEN. The nicotine addicted get very nervous if a cigaret is not in reach. The junkie is out looking for his fix. The "mechanics" of addiction must be a highly complex thing. There are, it seems, bio-physical potentials for such addiction. I remember reading that an actual gene for alcoholism has been identified. This affects about 10% of the population. If you are in that 10% and take that first drink, its "game over". The only thing you can do is never, under any circumstances, drink Etoh again.

But then you come up against the pyschological addiction. There is no identifiable substance external to the body. So maybe its cortico-steroids/adrenalin or endorphins that the person is "geting off" on. OK but why then anger? Why not skydiving? or boxing or any other thing that kicks up the adrenal output? Is this somehow like autism? A kind of mental masterbation? I would imagine that someone addicted to anger would become a master at pushing people's buttons to provoke conflict and receive their reward or pay-off. If they HAVE mastered this ability it would be hard to detect at first. But seen over a span of time the pattern of hidden agenda would become obvious then on to the next victim.

Even though the modeling of the complex mechanism is imperfect the overall picture of addiction emerges. You have a person who has a COMPULSION to behave in a certain way that provides him (or her) with a payoff which is apparently an altered state of conscienous.

The destructiveness of the addiction is directly related to the degree of compulsion. This may come about slowly or it may have a drastic rapidity. Disregard for social conventions comes about because eventually all things become subordinate to this cycle of stimulous (the action)/response (the payoff).

Anecdotely, I began to smoke cigarets when I was twelve and by the time I was eighteen I had a two and a half pack a day habit. I never thought anything of it. I smoked. That was all. I smoked. Without going into my personal history, I'll just say that I had a life altering experience that re-prioritized my life. It had nothing to do directly with smoking but as a result I stopped smoking, cold turkey! I no longer had a psychological need for cigarets but my body had adapted to nicotine. For weeks I would notice my hand going to my shirt pocket. I was amazed! I had no idea that I had become physically addicted to the stuff! I felt NO DESIRE to smoke, ever again but there was my hand going to the cigaret pocket. I was fascinated by the phenomenon. Eventually that passed too. It may be hubris but I know and feel within myself that nothing in this world could addict me. That is, with God's help.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for that GUEST lox, and I do not agree that something is either addictive or not.

   Lots of people work and while most people do not, some people do, become addicted to it.

   A few people have sex, and while some become sex addicts, many do not.

   Most people get angry from time to time. Only some from that class are addicted to anger.


   Addiction plays a role in the addicts life, has a function. Those without any given addiction don't require (consciously or unconsciously) that role to be played. Addicts do.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:37 PM

It also depends which direction you are approaching addiction from, as lox points out above.

If you are a cognitive behavior therapist, you are going to talk about addictions differently than a substance abuse therapist talks about addictions.

To me, the great danger of putting anger in the addiction column, is that people with substance abuse addictions will lose out on getting treatment, because there are only so many slices in the resource pie.

As it is, untreated substance addiction, domestic violence, untreated mental illness--all three of which end up making a lot of people victims of violence and/or make them homeless, is at unprecedented levels in the US, because of budget cuts that date back to the Reagan era.

Now, anger is a component of all of the above. However, you can't realistically isolate the anger as the problem in alcoholism or autism, just as a couple of for instances, you still wouldn't get to the root of the problem.

So I'm not in favor of trying to isolate these compulsive behaviors, and then equate them with the more severe illnesses, like cocaine addiction or bipolar disorder. I know it sounds awful, but we do have to pick and choose where to put the resources these days, because greedy jerks have forced the budgetary hands.

Also, both substance addiction and mental illness have come to be viewed as "criminal" behavior in most peoples' minds these days, which makes it even harder to get more resources going their way. Same has been true for AIDs treatment.

I sincerely hope that all this will change under the new Congress, but I'm deeply cynical that it will. I don't see the Democrats having any stronger will to do what is right than Republicans when it comes to substance addiction, domestic violence, AIDs, mental illness, homelessness. It's as if no one in power thinks our society owes people who suffer a fucking thing.

When you work with and/or love and are related to people who suffer from any of those things, these are very, very dark times.

I know there are a lot of raging assholes out there. Road rage is out of control. I know all that. I too know some people who engage in those behaviors. But still, it isn't as bad, as desperate a need as someone with untreated bipolar disorder, or a cocaine addict spiraling out of control and taking the people they come in contact with down with them.

Or the mentally ill going into Quaker elementary schools, and murdering little girls.

You know what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 04:24 PM

Maybe it would be a good time to re view and asses the definition of addiction.   Definition by stipulation, inclusion, exclusion, cultural nuance, etc. Dictataes the course of the discussion. Here is where we need agreement to make this a meaningful exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 01:15 PM

Ivor,

I have to confess that on this point GUEST seems to have been pretty fair.

Something is either addictive or it isn't. In terms of substance abuse, a substance is either addictive or it isn't. There are no might be's when it comes to chemical reactions. Either one will occur or it won't.

It is fair to say that somebody "might" become addicted to a substance, though that would only apply if the substance were an addictive one.

If somebody uses an adictive substance frequently over an extended period of time, then it is likely that they will become addicted to it.

They definitely won't become addicted to a non addictive substance though.

Do you see the distinction?


GUEST

I suppose the impasse we have reached was inevitable.

The whole personality disorder (compulsive behaviour), alcoholism and drug addiction quagmire, with all the overlaps and individually tailored disorder combinations is a confusing business.

Personality disorders and addiction are intrinsically linked and intertwined, while sufferers tend to exhibit similar behaviour.

They are both illnesses which can be treated with a combination of the right chemicals and the right counselling.

The study of personality disorders is very much in its infancy.

I would suggest too much so for anyone to categorically draw a clear line separating addiction from compulsive behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:08 PM

One last go.

   No, to say that an emotion can be addictive
does NOT mean therefore that an emotion is addictive.

   An emotion can be addictive depending on what's
going on with the person concerned.

   Others can have the same emotion without it being
or becoming addictive.

   The slide from one to the other that GUEST makes
is illegitimate, doesn't follow, isn't necessarily
the case. To elide the two is a straw man. I think
GUEST will know what that means, being an educated
person. That elision has nothing to do with what I
think (or said).

   Incidentally, that kind of insisting that another
poster is saying something different from what they
either said or meant, is one of many ways of diluting
and skewing and undermining much chance of progress
in our discussions.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:22 AM

There can be many legitimate medical reasons that a person may have trouble expressing anger appropriately. Brain injury, fetal alcohol syndrome, mental illness like bipolar disorder, aubstance addiction, Tourette's syndrome, etc.

Approximately 1/3 of those who suffer from depression have difficulty expressing anger appropriately. But then, most all who suffer from depression have difficulty expressing most emotions appropriately while in the midst of a depressive episode.

so lox, if I am understanding you (and you keep insisting I am not, because you are pretty adamnant I am not getting what you are saying) you seem to be saying that some people just get off on being angry, and so get angry for kicks? For some power tripping purpose?

Sure, I can agree with that too. But I wouldn't call that behavior an addiction, because in my opinion, that is an incorrect usage of the word 'addiction'. I see addiction as being caused by ingestion of an addictive substance, not a compulsive behavior.

So perhaps we could either agree to disagree, or if we agree, agree to call the manifestation of angry behavior of which you speak a "compulsive behavior" rather than an "addiction". I can get on board with that.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 11:34 PM

"lox, perhaps you don't know much about how medical researchers and scientists come to their conclusions. That's ok."

Another unfounded assertion.



"As to your question "how would I explain...", the answer is, I'm not trying to explain that, you are."

Actually, I'm looking for an explanation, in fact I am looking for several, ideally conflicting ones so that some scrutiny can be said to have beeen applied.


In fact, that's the whole point of this thread in this public forum.

Maybe addiction is one answer, maybe there's another.

Your answer "No it isn't" ... ok ... then what... ?



"that may piss you off no end because you had already decided you have every reason to believe that "anger addiction" is an actual medical diagnosis"

And another unfounded assertion ... can you leave off the unfounded assertions and tell me what you know? someone?

"they don't use anecdotal evidence to come to their conclusions."

Without anecdotal evidence there would be much less to investigate. Scientists do investigate anecdotal evidence and though it is statistically unreliable and limited in it's value that is not the same as saying that it has none.

Adrenaline is addictive, or so it has been observed and anger causes an increase in the production of it.

Perhaps indirectly Anger could be argued to be addictive on that basis to someone who doesn't have many other opportunities to stimulate its production.


There are safe ways of getting an adrenaline hit and dangerous ways. Rollercoasters and pub fights for example.

The excitement of a football match could be healthy for the player on the pitch, but unhealthy for the hooligan in the crowd.

Anecdotal evidence is useful in minimizing errors - for example in prescribing the correct drugs for patients where their condition is resistant to the effects of one but not another. This is why there is not a blanket prescription for all depression for example, but each patient requires a specific set menu of chemicals.

Likewise, different people need diferent stimuli to elicit an adrenaline rush.

Rollercoasters might not do it for you. You might need to get stuck in on the terraces against your rival firm of football fans.

In which case your behaviour could be said to be addictive.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 10:55 PM

Thanks LH for chopping it up into bite size pieces, digestable by ADD patients, small children and the ocassional Chimp or Bonobo. Easy Chongo, Jane wants to twist again like she did last summer.


I have to admit that GUEST really astounds me. It is either some kind of a joke he (gender is my guess, forgive me if I'm wrong) is perpetuating or he really doesn't understand even the most basic rudiments of logic.

To dismiss an argument because of form is like a 5 year old throwing a fit because things aren't going his way. No fact, no evidence no logical argument. Nothing. Just "Blah, Blah, Blah".   This tells me that GUEST is either dihonest or uneducated and certainly immature.

You blast Oprah and Dr. Phil and then you give credence to Bill Moyers. My own opinion of Moyers is that he is about on the same level as Phil Donahue and believe me, that is NOT a compliment. That, however is a tangent that I don't want to pursue on this thread so I say again, that just my opinion. You, however cite him as some kind of authority without giving his credentials. Bye the bye, I happen to agree with the diease model of addiction.

Here is an alert from the halls of academia: Yes, anger is percieved in the brain---Along with ANYTHING that is percieved. Perception is a function of the human brain (and some rather smart chimps' brains too!). So that is a tautology and hence a fallacy. Q.E.D.

You claim,"... the current scientific research on the brain and addiction doesn't support the contention of most people in this thread, that anger is perceived in the brain as an addictive stimulus, like it shows with cocaine, nicotine, etc" (sic) but you cite no source. How are we to know this is true? So far its just an assertion by you. And the grammar alone muddies the water and makes it difficult to understand what the point is that you are trying to make.

You leave me with many unanswered questions. I don't really have but a vague notion of what your profession is or what your educational back ground is. And, lest you fault me for the same, I might point out that it was you who alluded to yourself as some sort of appeal-to-authority to enhance your opinion.

I'm not saying that you don't have a logical basis for what you believe, its just that you haven't really shared it with us!

re "catharsis": cleansing one's soul and clearing the air can be a helpful thing for all concerned. The Apostle Paul said "Be angry, and sin not." Eph 4:26. Anger that does not stay focused on the point of provocation can be very destructive even though the one who rages may feel a chatartic release. The frequency with which anger is expressed, it's effect on those around it and how wide ranging it is are all clues to the true nature of the angry person. It could be an addiction. It could be a form of mental illness. It could be an indicaator of a pysiological problem and only a true professional can make that determination (such as the onset of Alzheimer's). This is a very good thread and there have been some really great observations made. It is a good discussion. Flippancy and "anger" per se should not be a part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:52 PM

lox, perhaps you don't know much about how medical researchers and scientists come to their conclusions. That's ok.

But so you know, they don't use anecdotal evidence to come to their conclusions.

As to your question "how would I explain...", the answer is, I'm not trying to explain that, you are.

Listen, anger is a symptom of some mental illness, but as far as I know, it is not an addiction to anyone except psychologists trying to peddle it as such in order to drum up more business.

I don't think much of the social sciences when it comes to this sort of thing, and since working for a group of neurosurgeons in a major university teaching hospital, I don't think too much of psychologists, either.

Now, that may piss you off no end because you had already decided you have every reason to believe that "anger addiction" is an actual medical diagnosis, but I'm here to tell you it is not. I've also never heard of an insurance company that pays for addiction treatment for anger, either.

The only "legitimate" treatment (if you could call it legitimate, I wouldn't) I've ever seen is behavior modification therapy which is widely reputed not to be very effective at "curing" the so-called anger addiction.

One example of that is what is known as the Duluth Model for treating men convicted of domestic abuse and assault.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:39 PM

To complete that point,

How would you explain an irrational and compulsive desire to create an artificial state of anger, so as - perhaps - to benefit from the 'positive' effects eg sense of catharsis, power, superiority, or ultimately (and being involved with kids you'll understand the pull of this last one) attention.

All this despite the knowledge (that experience brings) that ultimately all it does is give you a headache at best and get you into serious trouble at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:37 PM

"I'm rejecting it on the grounds that it is anecdotal evidence wrapped in personal and popular belief."

This is not grounds to make a judgement.

It is a judgement in itself.

Made on what grounds?

My original post was an idea that I had that I felt was worth floating to see what what kind of reaction it got from people.

No prior belief, either personal or influenced by popular culture was involved.

"Your anecdotes, and the anecdotes of the others here posting about people they know who are angry all the time, are not evidence of any condition, except a very human one: someone is isn't very happy with their life."

Let's say that some of the testimony here is reliable despite it's apparent anecdotal form.

How would you explain an irrational and compulsive desire to create an artificial state of anger, so as - perhaps - to benefit from the 'positive' effects eg sense of catharsis, power, superiority, or ultimately (and being involved with kids you'll understand the pull of this last one) attention.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM

I'm rejecting it on the grounds that it is anecdotal evidence wrapped in personal and popular belief.

Your anecdotes, and the anecdotes of the others here posting about people they know who are angry all the time, are not evidence of any condition, except a very human one: someone is isn't very happy with their life.

People who are angry all the time aren't addicts. They aren't in need of medical treatment the way addicts are, because emotions, even strong ones, don't cause chemical and cellular changes to the brain.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:08 PM

"Not really, no."

Well then you are rejecting not just my testimony, but that of a few others as false.

On what grounds?

"This seems to be a rhetorical question with no right answer"

It wasn't rhetorical, but I agree that the answer isn't simple.

"and has no bearing, to my way of thinking, to the original question posed here"

Go back and read my first post and look for a consistent theme that exists there and in my last post and you will have your answer.

"I'm pretty damn baffled at what your agenda was for starting this thread"

I refer you to the first post again - the agenda is pretty clearly spelled out.

"I don't think you and the others here with what looks an awful lot like pseudo-radical behaviorist tinged popular beliefs about anger, wanted to hear or likely even discuss the answer I gave."

How have you arrived at that conclusion?

"C'est la guerre." translates as "that's war for you" (literally "It is the war")

You've resigned yourself to the reality of what war exactly?



Look - I'm justifying myself as opposed to my point. I'm defending my integrity in the face of assumptions about my intentions.



So you're not actually an expert on addiction.

What do you actually know about me?


Why do you keep coming back to this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:50 PM

"Do you accept that there are people who deliberately stoke their own anger and feed it like some growling beast within themselves."

Not really, no.

"Why do people go looking for arguments, or in some cases violence (not boxers, but guys who go out to get drunk and get dangerous)"

This seems to be a rhetorical question with no right answer, and has no bearing, to my way of thinking, to the original question posed here, which was, as I read it, can angry behavior be defined as an addictive behavior.

My answer to that question, is no.

As to your last post, I'm pretty damn baffled at what your agenda was for starting this thread.

I took your initial question at face value. I don't think you and the others here with what looks an awful lot like pseudo-radical behaviorist tinged popular beliefs about anger, wanted to hear or likely even discuss the answer I gave.

C'est la guerre.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:40 PM

A cool response and a breath of fresh air into my crippled thread.

Do you accept that there are people who deliberately stoke their own anger and feed it like some growling beast within themselves.

Why do people go looking for arguments, or in some cases violence (not boxers, but guys who go out to get drunk and get dangerous)

What need compels people to post to threads like "closed threads and deleted posts", this one, the kramer one etc while calmer threads get overlooked.

I'm gonna walk around today with a goddam face like goddam thunder and people better get out of my way. I'm gonna think about all the goddam things that get up my nose and stew and seethe ... oops ... distraction ... now what was I angry about again ... aahhh yes ... I remember .. that no good Goddam sunnuvabitch ... growl growl ... etc etc etc."

or "I wonder if there's a good fight going on down the mudcat today?"

"DON'T TELL ME TO CALM DOWN - GET THEM KIDS OUTTA HERE - IF YOU TELL ME TO CALM DOWN AGAIN I'M GONNA HIT YOU SO HARD ... etc etc etc ..."


Physiological? What about temper tantrums as a way of dealing with stress - as opposed to the alexander technique, peppermint tea or a Marlboro?

This hasn't been the most coherent post, but it illustrates a consistent point.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:37 PM

I'm not an expert, but I have a professional interest in the brain and behavior, as I work with a lot of kids in special education.

I use stuff that is pretty clear, concise and comes from medical and scientific sources. I'm subscribed to Web MD, for instance, and use it probably more often than any other source when it comes to do some quick and preliminary research, and sometimes for more in depth reading about a particular study.

My interest isn't really in addiction at all, but kids and their learning disabilities, and what does and doesn't work in helping them. Because so many kids with learning disabilities had parents with substance addictions that wreaked havoc with their brain development in utero, you can't really get into the search for what will help them, until you know something about what has hurt them to begin with.

That said, someone I greatly admire and whose scholarship I respect is Bill Moyers. He did a very good program on addiction for PBS awhile back. There is still good information from it here.

I first became interested in all this when I was attending university in the 1990s, and worked for a neurosurgeon at the university's hospital.

So there you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:23 PM

Please show where I said anger was ALWAYS cathartic?

I said it was the best side-effect of anger. Just spewing is never productive.

Way back up in the thread, I challenged those of you who keep insisting that anger can become an addiction, to come up with some other observable manifestations of anger. No one responded with any. So I put a list out there. No one responded to that either.

That tells me the "anger = addiction" folks here aren't the least bit interested in learning anything. They are looking for people to agree with their beliefs about the emotion we call anger.

That ain't a search for the truth. That's swimming upstream in that river called denial.

This isn't a discussion about what is medically and scientifically known about addiction, substance or behavioral (for all you Pavlov and Skinner fans out there).

Of course, knowing how the political discussions go around here, it isn't in the least bit surprising to see what a Skinner slant folks here have to their radical behaviourist beliefs about anger.

I'm more of a physiological and philisophical bent, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:20 PM

GUEST

You haven't actually supplied us with any of the scientific information you claim to be in possession of.

All you have done is take an opposing stance to the "sweeping statement", as you describe it, that Anger is addictive.

Actually, the Title of this thread is a question not a statement -

"BS: anger - addictive?"

You have also not dealt with the questions that interested parties such as myself and Slag have posed, merely ignoring Slag on the one hand and demanding to see my credentials on the other.

What are your credentials and which website can I look up to make sure you're telling the truth (being a professional you will of course be attached to some kind of research facility or treatment centre?

Once you have established that perhaps you can explain the flaws in the posts here that express a view that is different to yours.

Being of open mind and keen to learn about this subject (the reason why I initiated this thread) I would of course be very grateful for the benefit of your expertise.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:08 PM

GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:45 PM

Sorry folks, the post I have just referred to specifically was from me, not the previous GUEST (Mr Angry there's no such thing as anger addiction and if you disagree I'll scream and scream etc )

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:00 PM

Blah, blah, blah Mick. I'm not listening, and you are preaching to your choir.

Now, if you have something actually on-topic to this thread to say that doesn't involve me...

No, I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:56 PM

Sez youse, eh 7:45? And your expert credentials are...?

I ain't buying.

Simply put, the current scientific research on the brain and addiction doesn't support the contention of most people in this thread, that anger is perceived in the brain as an addictive stimulus, like it shows with cocaine, nicotine, etc.

Even the so-called "gambling addiction" hypothese has been debunked.

So like I said, I consider the claim to be about as legitimate as any of the popular beliefs about these "psychology" claims out there.

Too much Oprah and Dr Phil.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:51 PM

You missed 100, Chongo. Guest beat you to it by a few seconds.

Boy, he's really ticked now. Chongo, I mean. Poor little guy is climbing the walls here... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:49 PM

I just can't stay away. GUEST keeps drawing me back with this amazing show of intellect. I have learned a couple of things.

-First, apparently I have superhuman powers. I only need speak, and all the rest of you will lose all semblance of rational thought and use of intellect. You will then wait as drones to do my bidding. It is wonderful to know that I have this power. If I had known you were all mindless a long time ago, I would be much further ahead in life. Stand by, drones, to do my bidding.

-Second, I now understand rage. I had always thought that these feelings I had were known as mild amusement. I now know that the feeling I get when I watch someone demonstrate what they truly are is known as rage. I must admit that I have had a lot of this feeling lately, as I watch folks take the piss on GUEST. Thanks for straightening me out on this. This rage thing is a delightful feeling (he says with tongue planted firmly in cheek)

You see, MN, that is your problem. You are so lost in your anger and real rage, toss in a huge amount arrogance as well, that you think everyone here is stupid and incapable of their own ability to discern fact from bullshit. You honestly believe that if they don't agree with you, then they must be dumbass, delusional fools. I don't. More than once they have brought me up short, and made me realize an error of my ways. Other times we have agreed. I respect folks opinions. You do only when they agree with you.

And that is why you are a poster child for the subject of this thread. And one with a long, traceable history.

OK, I really am out of here now.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:49 PM

100!!!!

You think you know about ANGER???? HAH!!! I'll show you anger, you stinkin', low-life, crab-infested human slime! One day the apes will take over and we'll put you all in CAGES! YEAH! See how you like it, hairless! You stink. Your society stinks. And we apes are gonna put you in your place!

Have a peanut, jerk-face!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:49 PM

100!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:45 PM

"I find it odd that not one person has mentioned the most wonderful side effect of anger: catharsis."

That's like saying - No one has mentioned that gambling is really exciting when you win.

Anger is not always cathartic. It often gets people into a bigger mess than they were in to start with, with greater pressures to deal with as a result.

So the "buzz" is catharsis.

A fairly compelling argument in support of the view that expresssing ones anger in order to enjoy catharsis may well be an addictive practice.

Addiction = "Habitual psychological and physiological dependence on a substance or PRACTICE beyond one's voluntary control."

Stress is a definite physiological concern. If you find yourself relying more and more on stoking up your anger so that you can get that all consuming and liberating catharsis as a way of dealing with stress then that would constitute an physiologically addictive practice.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:40 PM

Well, Slag, apparently our Guest couldn't read it. Too difficult without the breaks. Okay...here is is again with breaks put in, just for you, Guest! ;-)

I'll probably draw a lot of fire for this but...

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA and HA!!!

LOL and etc.

What a great debate for this thread. No personal attacks here. And Q.E.D. Addiction is a compulsion, a compulsory, often ritualistic behavior.

There are physical addictions as with nicotine or narcotics and there are psychological addictions of which anger may be one. There are also psychoneural conditions such as OCD that resemble addiction but are treatable with certain drugs and psychotherapy.

The hallmark of an addiction is the person's inability to alter or stop the behavior. Denial is often central to the continuation of the addiction. The sufferer sees himself and his behavior as "normal" and will marshall rationalizations and argument to support his view.

This also often incorporates a social support system that aids and abets the denial and smooths over any of the destructiveness the behavior may cause. It is the basis for the concept of dysfunction. Those who do not share in the dysfunction will instinctively or knowingly avoid the addict and his enablers which tends to isolate and intensifiy the problem.

In severe cases the addicted person drives off his support resources and "hits bottom". This is usually the make or break moment where the person must either confront the addictive behavior or be lost forever to it. If it is chemical dependence, said chemistries will destroy their physical life. If it is "rage," assualt and battery charges may be in the offing and the criminal justice system becomes the confronting "bottom' and if realization does not take place there are prisons for warehousing angry young (and old) men. That is , if someone doesn't shoot them in self defense first.

There are a lot of worthy tomes out there on this subject and its NOT pop-psychology. There is a lot of common sense and logic at work here and if YOU rale against the notion, you might ask yourself, what it is that you are trying to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:32 PM

Just for fun I reread my 3:51 post and as it is a summary of the nature of addiction, I don't believe a paragraph break is warranted! Any grammarians to the contrary?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:25 PM

Slag's post at 3:50, that is...

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:16 PM

Too bad you didn't read it. You missed the best post on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:15 PM

Gee, how did I miss THAT?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM

No pain. I just didn't read it. Don't care about poor grammar, typos, punctuation and that stuff. But the paragraph break is a no brainer.

But since y'all are just being assholes now, I'm not really reading what you are posting anyway. And you fellas might not have noticed it yet, but Mick's big footin' his way in here shut down the thread a long time ago anyway.

Then he says he is leaving.

Then he is back to congratulate the posters still around trying to slag me.

So you see, this thread has been all about Mick Lane all afternoon. This is what he does best. Ruin things for others with his rage. Which blinds him from realizing that he just shit on the thread and ruined it for everyone, just trying to "get me".

What a pathetic loser.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:57 PM

There's always the honorable way out, Slag. Ritual suicide. ;-)

I too have been deeply troubled by the lack of indentations on paragraphs, and that sort of thing. I feel your pain, brother! And I'm sure we both feel the pain of Guest, who had to wade through that whole lengthy post you made at 3:50 pm, without the relief of even ONE paragraph break. Dear me! S/he must be a very courageous soul to have done it and still had enough strength left to type a useful (?) comment about it afterward.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:52 PM

Great post! Well done, Slag.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:50 PM

I do make exceptions for others who post but do not observe proper grammar, spelling and form.*   I was under the impression that this was an informal forum where the participants thought on the fly and more or less followed a stream of consciousness and implyed humor here and there to keep the friendly nature of the thing alive.

    I see now that I was wrong. I must thank GUEST for pointing out to me the error of my ways. I shall henceforth endeavor to be as presise and correct in all aspects of the English language. I will also expect the same from every other person alike, both members and non-members. GUEST has demonstrated to me that form easily trumps factual statement, analysis and logic. I stand corrected.**


* The reader may have note the lack of the comma before the word "and" in this list and again in the penultimate sentence in the last paragraph. Grammarians differ of this usage. Some hold that each item in a list should be separated by a comma and others ( to which I subscribe) feel that the "and" takes the place of the comma. Perhaps this may be fodder for another thread but I sincerely hope that my usage here does not negate your thoughtful consideration of the foregoing. Copyrighted 2006

** I have just detected a problem with the website which now I feel may compromise all previous postings! The program will not let me indent for the initial paragraph! Oh! What will we do? What will we do?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 04:28 PM

Yes, well, some of us have a lower attention span than others, right?

But it's true, Slag, you might better have put in a couple of paragraph breaks. It would help.

Why watch soap operas when we've got Mudcat Cafe? ;-) Nasty, nasty, nasty! Tune in shortly for the next riveting episode.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 04:08 PM

Lousy post, slag!

I don't read posts where the writer can't be arsed to put in paragraph breaks!

so HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA back at ya!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

GREAT post, Slag! You are right on every point.

"The hallmark of an addiction is the person's inability to alter or stop the behavior."

Like in my case: Posting on Mudcat many times a day...specially on the political threads. Teribus has got it bad, too, maybe worse than me. Poor guy.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

I'll probably draw a lot of fire for this but...HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA and HA!!! LOL and etc. What a great debate for this thread. No personal attacks here. And Q.E.D. Addiction is a compulsion, a compulsory, often ritualistic behavior. There are physical addictions as with nicotine or narcotics and there are psychological addictions of which anger may be one. There are also psychoneural conditions such as OCD that resemble addiction but are treatable with certain drugs and psychotherapy. The hallmark of an addiction is the person's inability to alter or stop the behavior. Denial is often central to the continuation of the addiction. The sufferer sees himself and his behavior as "normal" and will marshall rationalizations and argument to support his view. This also often incorporates a social support system that aids and abets the denial and smooths over any of the destructiveness the behavior may cause. It is the basis for the concept of dysfunction. Those who do not share in the dysfunction will instinctively or knowingly avoid the addict and his enablers which tends to isolate and intensifiy the problem. In sever cases the addicted person drives off his support resources and "hits bottom". This is usually the make or break moment where the person must either confront the addictive behavior or be lost forever to it. If it is chemical dependence, said chemistries will destroy their physical life. If it is "rage," assualt and battery charges may be in the offing and the criminal justice system becomes the confronting "bottom' and if realization does not take place there are prisons for warehousing angry young (and old) men. That is , if someone doesn't shoot them in self defense first. There are a lot of worthy tomes out there on this subject and its NOT pop-psychology. There is a lot of common sense and logic at work here and if YOU rale against the notion, you might ask yourself, what it is that you are trying to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:37 PM

No doubt the pleasure of your company is worth $30 a ticket to someone.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:26 PM

What makes you think I'm not enjoying myself brucie? Last night I went out for a lovely dinner and fabulous night at the theatre seeing "The Miser" with one of my oldest and dearest friends.

Some of us actually have a life, friends, great family and better things to spend it all here at Mudcat.

Believe me, this place doesn't rank THAT highly in my life. Mudcat is a time waster for me, while I'm doing laundry and reading the online newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,meself (formerly known as memyself)
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:11 PM

I like "meself" - it's folksier and friendlier than "memyself", which sounds a little cold, and maybe even pompous. Think I'll start using it. Thanks, GUEST!

Just want to make that public so I don't get accused of creating (yet another!) identity. By the way, I'm a little miffed that my prose style is not so unique that it could be suggested that more than one person has composed my posts. Harumph!

Okay, now that I've seen what's actually going on, I'm going to be off on my way. Good luck, GUEST - why not take a walk, do some cooking, play some music, something to get your mind off all this?

Last one out, turn off the lights!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:08 PM

The thread was already wrecked.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 02:54 PM

Too late Mick, you already wrecked the thread. Just like you always do when you come rushing in to piss on my shoes.

That's what happens when your ego is much bigger than your heart.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 02:32 PM

Actually, sweetie pie, Rick was a close personal friend. He had done it once, and just wondered if I had.

That reference to apology is interesting coming from you. I believe that if you check, you will find any number of times that I have apolgized when I felt as though I should. I would bet you have yet to do the same.

OK, I have had enough fun for this thread. Please carry on without me.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM

In order to "reveal one's true colors" one first has to be trying to conceal them, no?

See here is the thing. The identity game is something you eejits give a shit about, not me.

It is obvious the label "guest, memyself" is being used by more than one person.

That is an MO of a few notorious Mudcat members, who routinely use several guest identities to attack people they dislike. This game has been going on since before even I arrived on the scene, and will continue even after "members only" posting is initiated (if it ever is).

There is also a reason why Mick Lane invokes the most beloved Mudcat member of all time, who is, conveniently for Mick in this case, unable to speak for himself.

Rick Fielding suspected Mick Lane of playing the much beloved Mudcat multiple personality game--for a very good reason.

And don't worry, most folks around here always feel like they have to apologize to Mick Lane. That is because he is the biggest bully on the block.

Carry on with your sucking up to yer own bad meself selves now, boys.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 02:07 PM

I feel I have to apologize to Big Mick for his somehow getting dragged into this foolishness, as my supposed alter-ego (or vice-versa - is he my supposed alter-ego?). I had no idea this annoying person has a history of lunacy on this forum or I never would have wasted my time on him/her. Sorry, Mick. Likewise, apologies to "you guest/brucie/peace", and even McGrath, who if I understood this annoying person correctly, was the first one on this thread to have the unenviable distinction - although it doesn't seem to be all that distinct anymore - of being identified as one and the same as (me)myself. (I've got the Holy Trinity beat all to hell - I'm five - no, six - in one!).

Also, apologies to the others on the thread for feeding this confabulation. I should know better at my age. Although I do have to admit, it is amusing to see this annoying person reveal his/her true colours. A little sad, though, when I think about it ...

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:39 PM

Sure boys, the two of you peas in a pod always win in your own minds.

Also in your own minds, you think the Mudcat world is on "your side". Some of us, however, do have the intelligence not to confuse popularity with "Truth".

And there is no doubt Mick Lane will beat me in the beauty contest here at Mudcat. There really are people here who truly admire your ability to bully, belittle, begrudge and show off your tremendous propensity to abuse the power given you by Mad Mudcat Max.

Because that is how small minds think. The Mudcat elite are shining examples of the sort of insecure, petty and vindictive men who have come to rule Max's Mudcat roost.

But not everyone here revels in the chance to suck up to and lick the boots of the bullies in power. More than a few folks have noted the disturbing similarity in behavior of the Mudcat bully elite and Republican neocon bullying.

Peas in a pod.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:33 PM

Poor sick little pup.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:26 PM

No 10:54 I look and leave angry.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:24 PM

Janet, that was a very nice try. Won't work.

First off, a few corrections. You didn't kick anyone's ass on the Memorial Day thread. You just showed yourself for the nasty person you are. You had very little support. And the funny thing about it was that many of your ideas and points had merit. But your nasty and self centered way just turned folks off. Over the years you have become known as a conspiracy nut who uses off the wall cites to make points that everyone can see as loony.

I don't care if you believe me as to the fact that I never post anonymously. I will leave that to the jury of my peers. Especially those that know me. I will let them decide for themselves as to my credibility when I tell you, and them, that I never post anonymously. Rick asked me years ago if I ever did that. I told him nope, and I still don't. I will acknowledge what I say. You should try it some time.

Actually, I agreed with Lepus when he said I needed to back off. I realized that he was right, in that I was pursuing your posts. You see, even though I consider many of his opinions incorrect, I have respect for Lepus. He is always out front, willing to take responsibility for what he says. And so when he said that, I did some examination and found merit in his words.

I don't pursue your posts these days. But I will hold you accountable for the positions you take when I see them. I don't mind telling you and everyone here, that I dislike what you stand for intensely. If I see something I will respond. But when I see someone like Don Firth whipping your butt so very nicely as he has lately, I just read, enjoy, and move on.

By the way, your attempts to use "hot button" issues to elicit anger didn't work. It just shows desperation.

I had no intention of getting in this thread, only spotted it while I was doing a daily "spam" scan. Spam is produced only by GUESTS, so I just scan all GUEST posts to find it. This problem will be solved by members only posting. That will end the problem, and will leave mod's to other more important duties.

So don't get all puffed up over yourself there, kid. I rarely look for your posts these days, and only respond when there is something I think needs responding to.

Have a nice day, sweetie.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:18 PM

And there isn't a bigger bullshitter in this forum than you guest/brucie/peace/memyself

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM

If bullshit were diamonds we'd all be rich.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Shaneo
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:11 PM

It would seem that a lot of visitors to this board have lots of anger.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:04 PM

And how can I tell? Your arrogance, your vindictiveness, and your thin skin when someone dares to challenge your opinions.

Your boorishness is legendary among some of us--and very obvious no matter how hard you deny posting as a guest and try to disguise your identity. Don't worry, I know this isn't a game to you. You are clearly to mentally unstable for this to be a game. Lepus Rex did nail it when he said years ago you have a real stalking problem with me.

You mentioning my posts in the Christmas BLAHs thread proves it once again.

Those of us who see through your phony bravado also know there isn't anyone here at Mudcat willing to prove what it is you are doing.

You are one scary, vindictive dude Mick. That Memorial Day thread where I kicked your ass was how many years ago now? 1999? 2000? Far too long to carry a grudge against someone you claim not to give a shit about, isn't it? A sane, stable person would have let it go years ago.

But not the machismo legend in his own mind, Mick Lane. The man with the disturbing warrior hero delusions--the great defender of the Mudcat membership realm. Master of the sad and pathetic Oirish American Bard persona.

You claim to be all about honor and integrity, but you ain't nothin' of the sort. You are a boorish braggart, with serious anger problems that have long since crossed over from grudge holding to internet stalker behavior.

You have all the power here, no doubt about it. But it doesn't change the fact that you are the one here with anger problems meMickmyself. Serious anger problems. Seek treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 12:50 PM

Sure, Mick. Sure. You aren't stalking me, even though you can name one of the only other threads I've posted to at the drop of a hat "scanning for spam".

Sure.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 12:45 PM

Nice fishing expedition. Actually, you just show your ignorance, arrogance, and paranoia. You are so sure that there is no correct opinion on any subject but yours that you can't accept that there are many here who see you for the loony, self centered, all mouth-no substance, person that you are.

Let's get one thing straight. I have never logged off and posted as a GUEST. I have posted occasionally as a GUEST when I wasn't at my own computer, but I always ID'ed myself. I have no need to hide my identity and I will always take the credit/blame for my posts. So I reiterate, I have never posted under anything other than my own identity.

So take your bullshit back to the opera, or on one of your trips to Puerto Vallarta. Sip a nice tequila drink and shower the unenlightened with your horseshit about what is wrong with the world. Who knows, they might make you the Sage of the world. In your mind you are there already, so it is but a short leap. Or better yet......crawl back under your rock. Just because you need to hide in multiple identities and act in dishonorable ways, just because you are a deluded, self agrandizing, conspiracy nut, does not mean that the rest of us are.

If you ever need to find me, just look for my name.

I found this post as I was scanning for spam posts, so I guess I will go and read the rest of the thread now. I am sure Ryan Matriot MN Monster will figure prominently in it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 11:44 AM

And Mick, you may have most of these people fooled, but meMickmyself ain't foolin' me.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 11:28 AM

My, my. Someone with some anger management issues is in need of a long winter's rest.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 11:11 AM

"One poster here has chosen to attack me personally for expressing that opinion."

I would have thought that someone with your self-declared intellectual powers would have understood what was going on better than that. You were "attacked personally" for coming into a thread in which a civil discussion was taking place and firstly pronoucing the topic and by implication everyone who was taking it seriously "stupid", then sneeringly dismissing all the discussion that had taken place to that point as the spouting of "dimestore pop psychology", then in the course of introducing another idea casting aspersions on the intellectual capabilities of the other posters. As for "that opinion", I have little interest in it one way or the other. You're welcome to it.

"easy to goad with a pointed stick": Now there's a skill worthy of such a mighty intellect. Why don't you try spitballs now? Those can be annoying, too.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,10:04 am
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 10:52 AM

Actually, 10:17 that just makes you a bully.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 10:17 AM

I don't think I'm addicted to anger but I seem to get addicted to doing certain things that I know can make me angry. Against my better judgement or resolve I keep coming back to certain threads or types of thread here for example.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 10:04 AM

Ivor, I noted what you had said the last time you posted to say "I didn't say that". Thank you for pointing out that there are two camps, one that says emotions are not addictive, one that says they are.

Seeing as I'm the only person posting to this thread that has made any attempt to discuss the scientific reasons for emotions not being addictive, doesn't mean I am reading incorrectly what has been written. I just haven't responded to your posts in particular, is all. But I will now. When you say emotions CAN be addictive, you are also saying they ARE addictive. Unless of course, you are claiming that emotions can be addictive but never are actually addictive in practice? No, I didn't think so.

As to the comment that I have "issues"--no, that isn't correct either. I have an opinion. It disagrees with the majority of posters to this thread. One poster here has chosen to attack me personally for expressing that opinion. I would add, that person is particularly gullible and easy to goad with a pointed stick.

I stand my ground, and say emotions and behaviors are not addictive, particular substances are. The belief among so many here that there is a provable causal link between emotions and addiction is just that, a popular belief with nothing to back it up.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM

meanwhile, back at the ranch..

in some relationships there can be a dominance game which pulls the partners in power games and emotional manipulation including anger, dominance and physical or emotional violence. These aspects of the relationship are often hidden, which only serves to heighten the control and intensity within the partnership.

In relationships like this anger can be addictive, as is forgiveness, as part of a cycle of experiencing emotional highs and intensity.

- i know a couple who are addicted to drama in their personal lives. they have been together and not together for over 30 years in a very volatile marriage, swinging between rage, grief, joy, delight, blah - they are consciously committed to expressing all emotions to the full, and all their personal relationships are acted out with Shakespearean flair.

They live out their own Bold and the Beautiful, without the facelifts. For them, their roller coaster of intensity can make other parts of life fade into dreary nothingness. Other people seem grey, suppressed, non-living.

When they moved out of their last house, all the neighbours in the street came out and cheered and clapped as the removing van rolled out the drive. They were amused, even proud of this!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:42 AM

GUEST belongs to the scientific group. There has been a
debate for decades between the scientific and other
paradigms. And the debate is difficult because the
different parties to the debate play by different rules and
think the other side's rules are flawed/wrong/even non-rules.

   One rule that ought to be followed by all is to read or
hear what your opponent has written/heard. In the 1920s,a
Cambridge professor of English,I.A.Richards,gave some of his undergrads. a selection of poems and asked for their criticisms
and responses. The authors of the poems were kept back from the students.

   Out of the responses, Richards identified some simple reading errors rgularly made. And don't forget, the readers were young students of English Lit. at one of the top universities in the world,so ostensibly among the best readers around, yet still
making basic reading errors.

   One of the errors was failing to read what wwas on the page.


   I've written that I've never said that any given emotion IS addictive. What I did write is the emotions CAN be addictive.
GUEST keeps reading
             'emotions can be addictive'

                     as

             'emotions are addictive'.


   I hope everyone can see that those two sentences do not mean
the same thing.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 03:37 AM

LH, sounds like passive-agressive payback to me. You might want to explore the possibilty of reconciliaton for your own future well-being. If nothing is there and nothing to be done for it, you will at least have a peace of mind that you rose above it and made an effort to resolve the differences. Or perhaps, and I hope its true, you've already taken that high road.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:52 PM

Yep, Elmer, that's it. I saw this in my Dad all the time. As soon as he figured he couldn't control something or someone (usually me) he'd go into a screaming rage. This was pretty frightening when I was a youngster, so he'd get the superficial control he was after, by terrorizing me....but he got it at a terrible price. Once I left home I basically didn't talk to him for years. He was a non-person to me. He'd used up his available credit and goodwill.

So, he got a brief sense of power and dominance and lost a son. Hell of a bad bargain, if you ask me.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:22 PM

Oh, my, GUEST, I am sorry. Imagine - what I took to be the braying of an ass was the sound of an intellectual giant expressing his opinions! Well, you just go ahead and express your great, big, giant opinions and I won't torment you anymore.

And if you ever should feel inspired to reveal the relationship between the Cathars and the term "catharsis", I will be all ears (whoops! sorry!). I mean, I will be very interested.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 06:57 PM

I think I grok your meaning, L.H. An adrenaline rush from the rage? Some illusion of power and control?

E.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 06:35 PM

Have not read the thread. No time this evening. Just tought I would stop by and and say, if it hasn't been said already,

Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhhhhh!!!! Yes, sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:53 PM

They get a sort of a charge out of it, Elmer, but their system pays a price for it. Anger is hard on the human system in the long run.

It's not the same kind of addiction as a substance-based addiction. But addiction is not confined only to substance-based habits, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 04:20 PM

"Habit" might be a better word for it. A behavior can become habitual: a knee-jerk reaction to emotional or environmental stimuli. I think that's different from an addiction, which is a disease with biochemical and perhaps genetic components. Someone might need to get angry to alleviate anxiety that's building up inside him or her, but it still strikes me as different from the person who needs a cigarette.

Does a person who constantly gets angry feel relief after blowing up? I doubt it. But you tell me.

Elmer

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,Drop in
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 04:05 PM

Guest has some issues. Humor him.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 03:48 PM

Your window? I don't think so. It's the web, dearie not your living room. If you are bothered by people expressing opinions on the web, you need a new hobby.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 03:20 PM

"You seem all hot and bothered in a very angry sort of way, meself."

Not angry, not hot, a little bothered, the way I would be by the braying of an ass at my window.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 02:34 PM

I've personally known a number of people who were addicted to anger. My father and my grandmother and my mother's friend Helen, for example. Some radio talk shows hosts, obviously. Some newspaper columnists. An addiction is simply an overuse of something which is normal if you don't overuse it. You know a person is addicted to anger when they get angry a lot more frequently than is normal or appropriate, and when that starts to make them ineffective at relating sensibly to other people.

Why do they do it? Because it makes them feel powerful, and it makes them feel righteous, and it makes them feel RIGHT. And that makes them feel "good" (although it makes everyone around them feel like shit...). They also do it because they are afraid that they might not be able to control the situation unless they use their anger to force the issue. They want control.

Addictions are an out-of-balance situation. People who get angry more often than they should and dump it on other people are out of control of themselves. Their efforts to secure control through anger are an instinctive response to their lack of it.

Yes, you can get addicted to many forms of emotional behaviour...and anger is just one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 02:09 PM

An intellect superior to the rest of you? All of you, no. Many of you, yes.

You seem all hot and bothered in a very angry sort of way, meself. Why not get back on topic to the thread?

An emotion like anger is very complex. And actually, meself's angry reaction to my posts should trigger another observable manifestation of the expression of anger for us all: derision.

Both mine and his. :)

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 01:37 PM

"There is nothing to fear but intellect, right?"

Are you trying to be funny or are you really so hilariously arrogant as to believe yourself in possession of an intellect markedly superior to that of any of the rest of us?

Well, come to think of it, perhaps you are - if so, please give us a demonstration; so far you've done a bang-up job of hiding it.

And please explain the references to Oprah, Psychology Today and Dr Phil - I'm afraid I'm lacking your familiarity with them. And while you're at it, perhaps you can give us the etymology of "catharsis".

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 12:30 PM

OK, here's a few ways of expressing observable anger off the top of me head:

sarcasm

defensive whining

condescension

belligerence

indignation

hostility

stubbornness or intransigence

sneering

Any of the above observable behaviors can be explained as observable manifestations of an angry person.

The study of personality, behavior, and especially of addiction, is nearly all hypothetical--with virtually NO theoretical base right not. Brain research is very much in it's infancy--scientists are still mapping the brain!

Now, it is quite fascinating that MRI has been used to further identify where in the brain things happen under a wide variety of circumstances, it is all still quite baffling and unknowable.

For instance, one part of the brain often associated with emotional expression is the amygdala. However, studies into emotional behaviors of that particular part of the brain are also contradictory, because emotional responses routinely show up also in the hippocampus, pallidum, and caudate nucleus regions of the brain.

While it may be fascinating that some studies done on bipolar disorder in children shows up in the amygdula (just as one example), that doesn't "prove" anything in a scientific sense. At least not yet. Why? Because the difference seems to be the in the stimuli used in the study, not in the anatomy of the brain itself.

So to make these sweeping statements like "anger is addictive" or "love is addictive" is akin to saying "rice pudding is addictive".

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 12:07 PM

Doing your usual bang up job of ignoring us anons, eh McGrath?

Think tone of voice, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM

How many different nameless GUESTS on this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM

I know MUDCAT is addictive!

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:26 AM

I'm curious as to how many observable manifestations of expression of anger people here can name?

And let's get the two most obvious, though least used manifestations of anger out of the way right off the bat: aggression and violence.

OK, other than using aggression and violence, how do human beings express and experience anger in observable ways?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:15 AM

Ah. Another Oprah fan, out of the closet.

There is nothing to fear but intellect, right?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:06 AM

"you do know the Cathars weren't Greek, right?"

Sorry, did I say "dimestore Greek"? I meant "dollarstore erudition".

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM

Please explain how an emotion is addictive?

Something that is scientifically based, please and not that you read about in Psychology Today or saw on Oprah or Dr Phil?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 10:12 AM

Just for the record,I,at least, merely said that anger is one thing among many that can become addictive.

   it is a far cry from that to saying that those things ARE addictions. I for one said no such thing.

   

   Any emotions can become addictions. None of them are addictions.


   Hope that's clearer.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:55 AM

and memyself, you do know the Cathars weren't Greek, right?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:37 AM

memyself, I'm hardly the only person posting to this thread to note that the "anger is addictive" crap lacks any substantive scientific evidence to back it up.

Like I said, anger is an emotion just like all the other emotions.

Is happiness addictive? Is frustration addictive?

This claim is pure pop psychology. People fear anger, which is what makes it such a powerful emotion. They often fear experiencing their own anger more than experiencing anger expressed by others.

Hence, people project all sorts of negative stuff on the expression of anger. If you do a poll, the vast majority of people would agree with the statement "it is always bad to express anger".

I consider anger a normal emotion, not abnormal. Every human being experiences it on a regular basis.

I'm much more fearful of passive aggressive manipulators who demonize and attempt to suppress peoples' normal and healthy expression of anger--pop psychologists all--than I am of somebody getting pissed off at the grocery store because the clerk is being an ass that day to everyone who asks for assistance, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:27 AM

That's not too complicated for someone who needs to spout dimestore Greek to justify his loutish behaviour, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 09:22 AM

"To say that emotions are addictive is pretty stupid."

And to say that emotions are NOT addictive is equally stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 08:56 AM

Anger is an emotion, just like all the others. To say that emotions are addictive is pretty stupid.

Anger is, in certain instances, the most appropriate emotion to experience. Just as sadness is, in certain instances, the most appropriate emotion to experience.

The fact that people have difficulty experiencing theirs and other people's emotions is what makes all of us human.

I find it odd that not one person has mentioned the most wonderful side effect of anger: catharsis.

But perhaps that's too complicated for people looking for dimestore pop psychology answers to justify their behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 10:10 PM

Anger is a great way of blowin' off steam. That's why I like it. But ya gotta keep yer head at the same time. Fer instance, I was just jokin' about givin' Al a burst from the tommygun or a hand grenade through the window. I ain't that stupid.

He don't worry me enough to have to resort to those kind of stern measures. Naw, he is just idle irritation from time to time. He's got enough bad luck already, just bein' Al...why should I make it worse for the poor sap? I save the tommygun for when people shoot at me first. Then the gloves are off, baby.

So. Anybody seen some tree-ripened mangos? The stuff in the stores here is pretty third rate.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: freda underhill
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 10:09 PM

I agree with Ivor - a good addiction is about a good distraction, and a temporary way of making a person feel better. Living in a fantasy world? more fun than the real one, sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 09:56 PM

I think Ivor has a point. Anger is a sort of easy, all-purpose emotion that can substitute for any number of more subtle or ambiguous feelings that are more difficult to cop to, or more painful to experience. It's a lot simpler and less heart-rending to get angry than to feel vulnerable, ashamed, defensive, isolated, dismissed, to grieve, or to try to sort out a confusing tangle of emotions that are gnawing at you.

Elmer

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 09:14 PM

Anger is ice for the toothache of shame.

Whatever distracts can console; whatever consoles can addict.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 06:53 PM

I think Chongo's story is about the funniest piece of prose I've read in a long time.

As Ronnie Drew said "you should never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

Come on - Even the Hunph was never quite that cool.

This is dick tracey, LA law and steven Segal all rolled into one.

Thank you for a true belly laugh monkey man ;'p

______________________________________________________


Seriously though, I understand addiction to be measured by what a person is prepared to sacrifice to satiate their desire.

Money?

Relationships?

Family?

Happiness?

The happiness of loved ones?

The lack of a bloody headache?   (!!!)

I suppose I should do the boring thing now and send you all here

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 06:01 PM

Little Hawk - no doubt you're right. It's just that what he said,from whatever point of view, is what most think, that the problem is THE OTHER.

Incidentally,how does one get to be a gumshoe? (Perhaps I should stick to therapist, but I did like Sherlock H. and some U.S. private eyes, so I wonder.






      Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 03:12 PM

I think Chongo just enjoys engaging in a little sarcasm, ivor. ;-) He has a rather dark sense of humour at times...it goes with being a gumshoe and living up to the classic image.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 02:47 PM

refresh






       ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 04:07 AM

Quite. Nor would I count breathing, drinking water or listening to music as addictions simply on the grounds that you couldn't imagine going without them. The reason? They are not harmful.

Addictions tend to have a harmful element, using the word harmful generously. And addictions have the function of enabling the addict to avoid; avoid facing something, experiencing something, knowing something. Quite often because what is being avoided is painful (or believed to be painful). Even avoiding living one's own life. (on the other hand, if I'm using music to avoid ..........)

Yes it is possible to be addicted to therapy/counselling insofar as, under the guise of doing one's therapeutic work, one is actually intent on doing no such thing.

There are many things one can be addicted to - money,sex, work,- and again, only if it is harming in some way. Of course, for the addict, there may well be no harm, hence the folk-memory line,"Can't you see this is ruining your .....?"."No."

Addiction to anger (as with other addictions), can be a tactic by which the person can be in the only situation they know where they are actually feeling something.

Chongo's story is telling when he asks THE OTHER about THE OTHER'S taking an anger management course,(while simultaneously knocking seven bells out of him!) Ah yes, it's always THE OTHER who has the problem,innit?






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 12:01 AM

You want my opinion? I think anger is addictive. But that ain't necessarily bad.

Example: My neighbour, Al, is an amateur auto mechanic. He thinks he can fix cars. Ha! He "fixes" 'em, all right. They don't never run right again when he's been under the hood. So anyways, Al tends to lose his temper when he's workin' on a car and he starts swearin' and yellin' a lot and bangin' things around. This was goin' on the other day in the alley below my office.

"Goddammit!" "You stubborn son of a b---" "Where the f--- did I put that goddamn f---ing wrench!" Bang! Crash! Bang! And so on, and so on, for about 3 hours. Al don't give up easy.

Well, I got sick of it. I was tryin' to get some work done and I couldn't concentrate. Here I am fightin' crime, crackin' tough cases, makin' society safer for decent people and apes, and I can't concentrate cos I have an idiot for a neighbour.

So I start yellin' out the window back at him, "HEY!!! Why don't you shut up? Give the car and us quiet people some mercy for a change and go rob some parkin' meters, you jerk!"

He pops out from under the car, all covered in grease, and starts hurlin' racial slurs at me, callin' me a "goddamn monkey"...

Well, I'm not gonna stand for that. He's got me mad now. "You want me to come down there?" I yell at him. "If that's what you want, just tell me, cos I will come down there, but one thing...make sure your will is up to date, Al. I wouldn't want yer wife and kids to get left out in the cold when the judge divvies up yer valuable collection of old Penthouse mags and the little plastic trophy you won for bein' number one jerk in yer graduatin' class back in '83."

I thought maybe that would shut him up, but it didn't. Nope. He got madder than ever. We both got mad. We yelled at each other for the next five minutes or so, until I got bored with it and shut the window on him. He was down on the ground floor, I'm on the third.

Well, I could soon hear him bangin' and cursin' away at the car again. I tried to ignore it, but I was goin into a slow burn.

Then I discovered that I was outta cigars. That means a trip to the smoke shop on the corner.

I went to the smoke shop and got some cigars. On my way back I figgered I'd take a peep in the alleyway and see how Al was doin'. He was still there all right, underneath the car, swearin' and sweatin' and crankin' away on some stuck bolt. I could see his big fat feet stickin' out. That gave me an idea.

I walked over and took a look at his ugly old work boots. The laces were hangin' loose. I bent down quietly and tied 'em together. So far so good. He didn't notice a thing.

Then I got in the car. He didn't notice that either. The key was on the seat. I put in in the ignition and turned it. The car coughed and stumbled to life, spluttering and smoking and making some grinding sounds.

"HEY!!!" yells Al. I hop outta the car and go take a seat on a bench over to one side and watch as Al tries to get out from under and see what's goin' on. Well, he had a struggle, cos of his boots bein' tied together, but he finally got out from under that car, stood up, tried to take a step and fell flat on his face. Har! Har! I really started laughin' then.

Man, I laughed and laughed. The dumb jerk had figured out by now that his boots were tied together and he tried to untie them, but he made a mess of that, so he finally whipped out a knife and cut the laces. Then he looks at me. I can see his temperature goin' up like a thermometer in the Sahara. He's gonna explode any second now.

"You got that car fixed yet, Al?" I says, lightin' up a stogie real casual.

"You're the one that's gonna get fixed, you stinkin' ape!" he roars, and he charges me, swingin' the knife.

I'm off the bench in a flash, and I get him in a wristlock and make him drop the knife, and I pick it up and pitch it at a telephone pole, where it sticks in about 20 feet up, quivering.

"You gotta control your temper, Al," I say, as I pitch him gently headfirst into the brick wall of my building. "If you was to get mad, you might hurt somebody, and I wouldn't want you to feel guilty later and have bad dreams about it."

He bounces off that wall like a big sack of potatoes, and comes at me swingin' like a crazy man.

"See?" I say, as I wrap my big long chimp arms around him, and slap a headlock on the silly bastard. "You're losin' your temper right now. What will the neighbours think? What will yer priest think?"

We go rollin' all over the place in the alleyway, kickin', bitin', gougin', and I'm thinkin' "this is a man who definitely does not know how to control his temper...it's sad." I have to say this guy fights dirty. It's a damn good thing he ain't as strong as a gorilla, that's all.

"Have you ever thought of takin' an anger management course?" I ask him politely as I throttle him with one hand and bust him in the chops with the other.

About the time he gets hold of a monkey wrench and brains me with it I realize he probably has not.

Well neither have I. It's the sad truth. I took that monkey wrench and I readjusted his nose with it. Al's nose has always kinda had a leftward tilt, but now it tilts to the right instead, courtesy of yours truly. A free nose job. No one can say I ain't generous.

He somehow gets hold of a 2 x 4 and we proceed to beat hell out of each other for the next few minutes, him with the 2 x 4, and me with the monkey wrench. "If I didn't know better," I says, "I would think you don't like me." (WHACK!) "And I am even beginnin' to think you don't respect me..." (BLAP!) "...but that's just not possible..." (CRUNCH!) The stuff he said back ain't worth repeatin'. Trust me.

Well, the upshot of it all was, someone finally called the cops and they broke it up. A good thing, cos I might've eventually got really angry and hurt Al. We wouldn't want that, would we? No, we wouldn't want that.

I am tryin' to think of a nice gesture I could make now. Extend an olive branch. Neighbours should always try to get along, shouldn't they?

Should I pitch a hand grenade in his window or just do a quick pass with the tommy gun some time as I'm drivin' by? Decisions, decisions.

Do I think anger is addictive? Yeah, I think you can make a good argument that it is.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:37 PM

The same with print. Reading the labels on bottles of sauce or the instructions on the bottles and tubes in the loo, if there's nothing else to read.

But it doesn't count as addiction unless it does you harm, or someone has decided that it does you harm.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:32 PM

Ah, but there are--many--people who have no problem going hours, days even, without music. Of course anybody who sings never has to do that. But there may be such a thing as addiction to music--and I may well be such an addict. I don't even like parties if there is no musical element--preferably music made by the participants. And music parties are the only ones I go to--except family gatherings--which thereby suffer by comparison--unless there's a lot of humor--and there is in fact often music at those too.

2 days ago I went to the retirement community where my mother has moved herself and her husband-- strongly against my advice and wishes---so much for all the heartrending stories of how older people are wrenched out of their homes, pulled out of their environment, against their will.   Anyway I wound up playing the piano there and singing with some of the residents. So that visit was far better than I had imagined.

Virtually anything goes better with music.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:00 PM

Some people seem to get addicted to therapy.

The term addiction implies that what you are addicted to is not good for you. I couldn't go more than a minute or so without breathing, or a few hours without water, but I wouldn't call that an addiction. Same kind of thing goes for music.

Of course you can have too much of a good thing. Hyperventilation, even water intoxication. But that's a different thing from addiction.

"A little of what you fancy does you good". Even anger.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:10 AM

"not to experience something they regard as difficult". I would disagree. If there is such a thing as addiction to music, it eases difficult situations, but you still realize you have to have the difficult experience. Of course you may say addiction would be the wrong term with reference to music.

But I would say a lot of the symptoms of addiction are there. Can you imagine a day without it? Do you seek out others who do it? Do you put off other things in order to do it? Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:10 AM

A function of any addiction is to enable the person not to have to experience something they regard as difficult.

   A way forward can be to go to a therapist. In my branch of psychotherapy, Gestalt, a point is to develop awareness - most people function without.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 09:08 AM

I would second Liz' suggestion of the Mozart Requiem to defuse anger. In fact any singing seems to do it--especially aggressive singing---as in virtually all Sacred Harp. The words in Sacred Harp also sometimes help--"On slippery rocks I see them stand while fiery billows roll below". Then there are also lots of "it's your fault (not mine)" songs to sing--lots of blues and country and some rock--as in "You're No Good" or "Won't Get Fooled Again".

And lots of instrumental classical music which is incredibly therapeutic. I was just writing a posting to try (again) to straighten out Teribus-- and the Bruch Scottish Fantasy came on the internet radio station I was listening to. No way you can not be uplifted by that one. Teribus fades into insignificance.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:25 PM

I always feel uncomfortable with the term "addictive personality". I have a feeling that all of us are quite capable of becoming addicted to something. Some of us have been lucky never to come up against that something in circumstances where it takes over.

Obviously anger can be pleasurable, or at least analogous-to-pleasurable. (It can be painful too, but that's just the other side to it, like drink giving you a hangover.)

But I'd distinguish between being cross and being angry. I'm not at all sure that being cross is ever pleasurable, unless it's allowed to boil over into anger.
.........................
There was an old belief once that lions had a claw at the end of their tail. When faced with a difficult situation they were thought to start off mild enough, and then lash themselves into a fury by waving their tale and scourging themselves with the claw until they were enraged. That's not actually true of lions - but a lot of people are like that.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:25 PM

I work with someone who gets angry at the drop of a hat.I am not able to say whether he is addicted to anger, but it does happen with frightening regularity. Needless to say I am looking for another job.

As to my own anger, I used to get road rage - never got out of the car and did violence, just swore alot. I didn't enjoy it - infact it made me feel very bad.(never swore until I learned to drive!)
I was then diagnosed with high blood pressure and the road rage disappeared when I was put on medication for it(high blood pressure not the road rage).

I have to deal with the odd angry customer in my work. Its always the same ones - its seems they only have one mode of dealing with their problems - its someone elses fault and shouting and rudeness will get it sorted.

Just before I post this I've just noticed two adverts at the bottom of this page, ones for hypertension medicine and the other is for difficult people at work! spooky.......

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:31 PM

I think a tendancy to allow oneself to become angry at the drop of a hat is a sign of laziness too.

I don't have the time or the inclination to solve this problem properly, so I'm going to rant and rave about it instead till I beat it.

I know people like that.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Slag
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:26 AM

I hate anger and hatred makes me angry. Seriously though there is anger and then a feeling you might call "righteous indignation". In my youth I'd get angry in a heartbeat but it was never really productive and always lead to bad feelings all around. I learned anger so I deterimined myself to learn better ways of dealing with anger. With God's help I learned tolerance and patience, empathy, understanding, the numbers 1 to 10 and beyond. The Bible teaches to avoid the angry man and that's good advice. Also "...a soft answer turneth away wrath." I don't know what kind of preachers JohnInKansas has been listening to but please don't be prejuidiced against all preachers for the short-comings of a few. The Apostle Paul said, "Be angry and sin not." Jesus said "The wrath of Man worketh NOT the righteousness of God" . Again Paul said to "...live peacably with all men, as much as lieth within you." Martin Luther King tried to embrace these Biblical priciples and look what he achieved.

The writer of Ecclesiastes says that there is a time and a season to every purpose and anger against injustice and evil is understandable and even to be commended but what we do with that anger should be done in the light of reason and tempered by love and forgiveness and mercy.

Is anger addictive? To some, yes. You could say that they have an addictive personality. The habitually angry have no real control over their own lives. They are manipulated by others and sometimes wind up being controlled be society to protect society. Control from within is a good thing (self-discipline). Control from without is for children, those with arrested development and ultimately criminals.

The next time you feel a rage coming on, stop and think. Think of a better way of dealing with the situation. Walk away, ask yourself if it is so important that you want to lose your composure. Do you want others to think of you as a hothead? Try seeing it from their point of view. What example are you setting for your children? Be angry and sin not.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:21 AM

Yes.

Fortunately, as others have pointed out, so is music.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Alice
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:13 AM

Sense of humor seems to be a way some people defuse anger. My co-workers and I tell each other about our experiences with angry customers, like the one I described in Wyoming, and then we laugh about their 2 year old tantrums or nutty behavior. Being able to laugh with someone else who is walking in your shoes is a great release. Changing the point of view to something humorous, looking at the irony in the situation, etc., is the way we keep on going in a positive way. A person who reacts with anger would not last in this kind of job very long. You have to have a sense of humor about the difficulties and the difficult people to stay positive and keep going.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Alice
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:02 AM

I've never been a screamer. I only get angry about big things, like child abuse, war and genocide, and I it motivates me to do something constructive. Other stuff, like people who are annoying or rude or mean, cause me to react by avoiding them and maintaining my own peace of mind.

Here's an example. I work in advertising sales, where I have to walk in to businesses every work day and meet people who are a complete unknown in how they will react. It takes courage to do this, and the ability to let other people's mood not affect me too much. Some people I meet have ads in our yellow pages and some people are new prospects for advertising. You never know if the person will be considerate and can say yes or no politely, or if they are mean, rude and irrational.

Last week I met one of the most angry, rude and down right mean customers I've had to deal with. She is a Realtor in Wyoming (I don't know why the most rude people I've had to work with are in Cody and Powell) and most of her customers are finding her number in her yellow pages ad. I had been given her account to take care of among hundreds of others in Wyoming, so I had not met her before. As a professional graphic artist, I often re-design ads so they will be more effective and find ways people can save on the rate and increase their Return On Investment. I made a more attractive ad for less money than she would have to pay to renew the previous ad, and made an appointment to meet with her. When I arrived at her office, she began screaming at me from the first moment. She threw phone books at me across her desk, threw paperwork at me, yelled at her secretary, screamed at me, then finally renewed the ad, gave me a check and said, "that looks a lot better than what I had before".   I remained calm and reasonable throughout the whole meeting and wished her good luck in her sales when I left. I hope I never see that woman again. I plan to give all the Wyoming accounts back to the manager next year for someone else to call on. People who take their anger out on others are on my 'avoid' list.   

I had a couple of near death experiences when I was younger, and that may be why I "don't sweat the small stuff".   I've had several people ask me why they never see me get angry. I think they mean they've never seen me yell or throw things or something like that. That behavior is counterproductive, so I don't do it.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 09:49 AM

A number of changes (chemical) have been documented by various researchers, and "emotional addiction" phenomena have been studied by quite a few.

The "fight or flight" reactions seem particularly strong. Most of these probably produce elevations in adrenaline, but there are a number of other hormones and vaguely known "juices" that can participate.

The well-known "brain barrier" generally prevents most of the strange chemicals that slosh around in our bodies from getting to the brain, so that it lives in a fairly "clean" world all its own. One function that has been postulated for adrenaline and associated hormones is that they act as a "transport" mechanism to pass "more" through the brain barrier, much like insulin is the transport link that lets sugars pass from the circulatory system into individual cells and controls how much gets through, but doesn't itself participate much in the metabolism of the cell.

Exactly what "more" gets transported is, so far as I've heard, not really too well known. Several decades ago it was suggested that adrenaline might act as a "super insulin" to raise sugar levels in the brain so that one might react more alertly. I don't know whether that function is supported as a principal function by later work, but even if so it apparently is only one part of what goes on.

One report I recall seeing, from the University of Israel shortly after one or the other of the larger conflicts in the region, claimed to have shown that high "adrenaline" levels (high stress levels) could lead to transport into the brain of chemicals that shouldn't be there and that ordinarily would be excluded by the barrier.

The obvious extrapolation from this is that one reason that US researchers had difficulty accepting the so-called "Gulf War Syndrome" is that when they tested "normal" people (laboratory volunteers) no chemicals got through, while the Israeli researchers suggested that under stress the same chemicals likely would get through to the brain.

Another researcher suggested that this might explain the occurence for a number of drugs of "side effects," largely psychotic, in older patients that don't often occur in younger ones - the old folks, often in care/hospice facilities or controlled by their offspring often are subject to quite a lot of tension, due to having little or no control over their own lives and often being given little information by those caring for them, and this tension may(?) elevate adrenaline or a like compound that promotes transport of some of these drugs into their brains, where the same drugs just don't get there in unstressed subjects. (There are a number of commonly used drugs that dismiss adverse side effects as occuring "only in the aged/senile and feeble minded.")

A friend who has worked for many years with returned veterans has asserted that at least some of them "miss the high" of the fear they felt in the combat zone.

Under threat, when you have a job to do, you have some control over the situation. You can make your preparations to react to the threat, which at least gives the appearance of having some control. Some vets referred to the inability to lose the fear, but now had no way of "facing it," so that they now had the fear but not the high from "doing something" about it via the "get-ready" (response) activities.

The "high" apparently depends quite strongly on being able to react to the situation, so in a more normal environment it's possible that it's the "lashing out response" - or the preparation to do so, or thinking about how you could do so - that is more addictive that just the fear alone.

Anyone who doesn't believe that hate is addictive need only visit one of the "fundy" churches in my area. The entire congregation becomes radiant with joy at the introduction of each new hate object. I've seen it, and it's frightening - even if it's not you they intend to hate next. (They are not the only place where it can be seen, just a very consistent place.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 09:29 AM

Well I don't know about any research behind that article, and his conclusions may be true but these sentences....
"Those of us who rage a lot have more health problems than people who practice containing their anger. The popular psychological theories that suggested a need to express anger for mental and physical health reasons have been proven false when put under the microscope of scientific research. The more we scream and yell, the worse our health gets, the more prone we are to heart attacks and the worse our rage problem becomes.".....
look like the usual confusion between cause and effect. If it is true that angry people have more health problems is this because expressing anger damages health or because health problems affect mood?

The way the popular press reports science makes me...maybe not angry, but certainly amazed, irritated, exasperated.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:41 AM

Well I never ...

Looks like there are chemical changes.

blicky

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:29 AM

Nice one folks,

I was looking for honesty.

That's what I'm getting.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:37 AM

Why would anger trigger any dolphins? They're peaceful, fish-loving creatures who want nothing better than to show us the error of our wasteful ways....












Seriously - I can see where you're coming from. I've sometimes had weeks where I've deliberately made myself angry just so I can explode and tell the person who has caused the angry feelings just what is wrong - because apparently, that's the only way to get through to them. Being calm and rational just gets you walked over. Trouble is, I like the feeling of power it gives me, particularly when I am right, and that's the thing that is the scariest. A good rant every now and then makes you feel better, but doesn't make the problem go away. The occasional scream and verbal outburst will often make others stop and think about what they are doing. It's when the occasional scream becomes weekly or daily that you need to stop and get control. Are you getting like this because there is a problem that isn't being addressed or are you doing it because you like the rush and power it gives you? If you are deliberately looking for that anger rush, then you are in trouble and need to take a step back. If it's because there's still a problem, then you need to take it to your manager, your Union or the source of the problem and talk it out with a view to resolution.

As a person who has bouts of depression, I can see a close link between the two - a bout of 'down' will often come close on the heels of a screaming match - it's the great swing in brain dolphins from full to empty. Add PMT and it can be one hell of a roller coaster ride. It's not the mad, hyperactive rush of the manic depressive, but a slow burn to the explosion which will then be followed by a couple of weeks where all of life is just shit.

Sometimes the slow burn can be more destructive than the quick blast. I'm a slow burner now, but I used to be the opposite. I would explode and then subside just as quickly. Now, I can take a few days to wind up to it, but the explosion can be just as dramatic. Then I'll sit and quiver for an hour or so... then I'll go hide somewhere and not want to talk to anyone for a week.

If you find your winding yourself up to be angry because you like the rush, the power surge and the "excuse" to lose control, perhaps you should try primal scream therapy - I use choral singing as my therapy - something about hitting those top notes with volume and venom... I would recommend Mozart's Requiem, particularly the 'Dies Irae', which is the closest anyone has ever come to orchestral stinging or aural slapping.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:02 AM

does anger trigger endorphins? If it does, it's certainly addictive

nick

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:43 AM

I really don't believe that anger and hate are addictive.....the strong feelings that we get toward other people...the gutteral feelings, seem to come to us all but we all handle those feelings in our own way. We do have a choice on how we handle ourselves and our feelings and we can all concsiously choose not to do things. It may be easier to 'let go' but self discipline or anger and hate management can work if we can't control the 'habit' ourselves. Yes I prefer to see it as habitual rather than addictive. Anger and hate are bad habits..get yourself over them.
There is nothing wrong with 'feeling' anger it's how you use it and that be the same for all the feelings we experience.

Subject: RE: BS: anger - addictive?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:40 PM

Anger most certainly is addictive, and so is hate. That's why both are used so much (and so effectively) by politicians and preachers.

Because it works.

... ... Sometimes even on those of us who recognize and try to avoid it.

"Simple (-minded) lies" are another effective tool, but require (sometimes) a bit more subtlety.

John

Subject: BS: anger - addictive?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:28 PM

Whaddayathink?

I've lived most of my life free of it thankfully, but then I went through a terible time and discovered what it really is. I found through honest self observation that I was beginning to embrace it when it arose, and I could even find myself trying to remember, inmy day to day dealings, what it was that I was angry about so that I could have a bloody good stew and think of all the angry things I might say in some argument .

My situation has improved again, and my anger is subsiding and I don't rise to things anymore, seeing that all it does is make me tired in the long run and the juice it gives just isn't worth the very real headache and stress that it causes.

Sometimes it tempts me though, and I have to choose to abstain through force of will.

Perhaps there is a chemical produced in the brain that is addictive, endorphines for example (which make exercise addictive), or the natural pain killer we produce in our mouths when we eat chilli.

Any ideas?