'Chords Request' curiosity question

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:59 AM

Lonesome - but surely the moment the flute player and the fiddler change into a different sequence, you hear it and realise what they've done/are doing. So you join them........

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Johnmc
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:56 AM

I have experienced exactly the same thing with blues songs.
Another head-scratcher is when the fiddlers etc go into a tune in a minor key; I have seen perfectly good players stop playing.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:51 PM

The problem with songs that have "obvious" chords, say a three-chord blues in A like Rock Me Baby, may not be that the chords aren't clear (using the I-IV-V guideline, we may know that the other chords are D and E), it may be that the progression is in doubt. The only real difference in playing Rock Me and Key to the Highway in A is the sequence...A-D-E for Rock Me, A-E-D for Key. Sounds like simple stuff, but I have seen good guitarists fall on their face when presented with the simple instruction "this is a blues in A". That's why I like to write it down, anyway. And it stinks when you play Key to the Highway and the flute player and fiddler at the jam go into their solo breaks with A-D-E assumed and change the song entirely.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:05 PM

Practising doesn't just mean doing exercises in preparation for doing it for real.

It can also mean doing it for real, and learning in the process. As in beuing a practising physician, or practising a religion. I think for most people involved with folk music that's the main way we practice.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:34 PM

"folks who have that play-alone preference, and the trouble they have when they start wanting to play with others and all their practice experience has been solitary, sometimes with overly-detailed playing and sometimes with various poor habits deeply ingrained."

"A person who learns and plays alone is at a serious disadvantage (even if only briefly) when it comes to playing with others. If nothing else, one tends to develop bad habits; it is easy to be too forgiving of oneself."

I have previously mentioned here the very sad tale of the keen solitary (classically trained) violinist, who may dad claimed was the only violinist he had ever come across who could slide a note played on an open string.... :-)


"I don't understand why at one time I could not hear chords, and I can't understand why I can do it now."

Training of the mind thru 'practice'.


"She started coming to practices"

Ah - that word again...

Did you realise that the most important parts of the body to train during 'practice' is the listening and analysis part of the brain<>?

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:12 PM

When I asked the question in the original posting, I now realise it was because I had a particular introduction to music (in the 'active participation' sense); I sang, tried and failed to play various instruments until I found one that let me (Anglo) and then used its pattern to become familiar with others using similar patterns, like harmonica and melodeon. Although I sang solo, communally and later in a formal group it was melody that got me started and harmonies that I developed into. Like others on the thread, I don't read (but will probably learn now that my daughters are so proficient) and couldn't name a chord to save my life.

But I have learned to recognise enough about them to try being helpful when a tune I'm playing changes key at some point that has an accompanying guitarist puzzled. I'm limited, in that I'll give them what I think is the root note and only occasionally guess at what version of minor chord it might be, but that seems satisfactory. Guitarists' ability to learn chords merely by watching has always intrigued me, but that's probably because of my 'melodic' introduction to learning. The responses to this thread have opened my eyes to other entry points.

Now that I've moved away from the bright lights the most frequent session I get to are at the major festivals and, because of my dance band background, many of the sessions are on dance tunes (non Australian influences are Irish, Scots, English & American mostly, with some Swedish, German, French & others sprinkled in). Age has wearied the memory cells so that I'll recognise the name but forget how it starts, until the first notes; then it and all the subsequent tunes in the whole bracket are coming out of the fingers. Or I'll be rattling away on tunes and someone will ask the name(s) and I become embarrassed because I can't remember. It's some consolation that others have the same experiences.

Which brings me to Guest Terry's comment. "I have no musical training at all, but (usually) find it easy to play the chords to folk tunes/songs that I've never heard before, particulary when I'm part of a band."

Terry, I reckon the experience you described is an excellent training. It might not be complete (as mine hasn't been) and it might not be formal (as mine wasn't, like many others around Mudcat) but. like mine, yours seems to have worked. It mightn't have worked as well for someone else but, them's the breaks. I use your comment because it gave me the easiest entry to address notions I've picked up, in several postings, about practice.

While agree with whoever it was who indicated that continuous repetition of errors (something like that) shouldn't be regarded as successful "Practice", it seems to me that every time you session with someone or even just noodle by yourself through something that intrigues you, that's Practice. And probably very effective.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 12:33 PM

A person who learns and plays alone is at a serious disadvantage (even if only briefly) when it comes to playing with others. If nothing else, one tends to develop bad habits; it is easy to be too forgiving of oneself.

I remember some years ago listening to a technically very good fiddler on stage at a folk festival. She was being backed by a guitar player who had to jump time over and over again to follow her. It was painful to hear.

Our band leader/fiddler also heard her and promptly invited her to join us in playing for dances. She started coming to practices and given her inherent ability quickly became very good.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:56 AM

Bee, I sure didn't mean to cast aspersions on anyone, and I understand what you are saying. (It's a bit isolated where we are too.)

IMO, ANY playing of instruments is a GOOD thing, and I wasn't making fun of anyone. I see it as a progression people instinctively go through in the way that works for them, and my main point was that the chord requests come from folks when needing to ask is the stage they're in, for whatever perfectly-sensible reason.

But what I was referring to that "got" you is common to a lot of new players, especially young ones, and what I was picturing when I wrote it was my stepson. He could sit happily for hours noodling on his electric, in his room, and only seldom wanted to play with anyone else-- and some folks do get stuck in that spot (happily or not). I've seen lots of folks who have that play-alone preference, and the trouble they have when they start wanting to play with others and all their practice experience has been solitary, sometimes with overly-detailed playing and sometimes with various poor habits deeply ingrained.

Also in mind were players who make sure to drop in at the local music store early enough in the day to spend quite a bit of time trying out (playing!!!) various guitars.... at our nearest one there is a regular group of folks who cannot afford their own guitar but come in at predictable times to hang out and play the used stock on hand. (The store even set up space for them to do it!)

Again, no aspersions. I homeschooled my son-- I support self-directed learning. Thanks for the chance to clear THAT up!

~Susan

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:48 AM

Oh, I didn't make it up "just like that". I am much more limited than that.

I knew I wanted a falling ralentando at the end of the song, and I knew the chord I had before, and I knew the one that was likely to come after so I tried every chord I knew in between and none were what my ears were telling me I wanted, so then I tried finding a single note for that gap, and when I had that I tried for another note at the same time, and when I had that, I tried to find finger positions so I could play them both at once, and so on until I had all 6 strings. It took me most of a day. I still can't always remember it and I frequently miss it. It's like an Aminor shape at the third fret (so C minor) EXCEPT that you flatten the C in the middle of the neck (ie the same note as is on the B string at the first fret, but in this chord the C would be on the 5th fret on the G string so the B is on the fourth. You need to change the fingers round a bit to get it.

The resulting sequence is Em (ie Am barred at the 7th), Am (at the fifth, the chord with no name, B7 (ie A7 barred at the second, the A played on the G string and the top E at F# not at A) then Em in root position.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Black Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:41 AM

Sorry SCRUMP
Wasn't particularly getting at you as you have written lots that make sense.
Was just trying to get the thread back to the original which seems to me (altho I may be wrong) that the question was about the ability of guitarists to pick up chords by ear!

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: vectis
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:20 AM

I ahve a friend who is a brilliant piano player but just doesn't 'get' how a guitarist etc can just 'busk along' in a session and work out chords as they go along. Yet she, given the dots, can work out chord sequences lightning fast, for a keyboard and thusly any chord playing instrument. I suppose it's what you're used to.
I had to have the chords written down when I started playing guitar but eventually my ear got trained enough for me to be able to work out sequences nearly every time. There are times though...
And I can't do what Richard B does and make a chord up just like that.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:58 AM

Scrump - - you wrote 'Beginners also usually don't know that many chords, so an Am7 or D9 or the like is a complete mystery.
If you see a chord like that, that you don't know, try substituting the 'plain' chord instead, e.g. Am instead of Am7, just for the purpose of learning the song. It won't sound exactly the same, but it will usually do to get you started.'

The original question was about being asked for the chords. If the beginner / novice / expert had the chords in front of them they wouldn't be asking for them – would they?

It was Bee who said the first part "Beginners... mystery". I was just giving some advice on that point, and trying to explain that if someone saw chords in a book or was given them by a Mudcatter in response to a request, they could try that approach I suggested. I went on to say:

Then if you want to you can look up the chords you don't know, and work those in as well. It's a good way to expand your chord 'repertoire' - and some of these chords are easy to play anyway.

If I'm asked to supply chords for a song, I try to keep it simple, on the basis that the person asking for them is probably a beginner or not very experienced. So I'll try to provide chords that give the bare bones of the accompaniment, rather than every nuance that you might hear by a good player. That will come with experience, and you can work up to that.

What I was trying to say, was that if I give someone chords to a song at their request, I will try to just provide basic chords that fit the song (as others have said, there is usually more than one set of chords that will 'fit') - which may not be exactly how I or anyone else might play it, but allows the person to have a passable stab at accompanying the song. It's up mto them if they want to add to it and embellish it with passing chords, etc. In general I can't know their ability and have to guess from the way they request it. I would normally assume the requester is a beginner or not very advanced player, or they wouldn't ask (but maybe that assumption is wrong!)

I realise that some requests are much more advanced, and I wouldn't presume to answer them, but leave it to an expert, e.g. if someone requested the tuning/chords to Canadee-i-o by Nic Jones - I wouldn't be able to do that as I can't play in that tuning (whatever it is).

I'm not sure if that addresses your point above, or not! I wasn't quite clear wht you were getting at?

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Darowyn
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:38 AM

I don't understand why at one time I could not hear chords, and I can't understand why I can do it now.
One odd thing though, any song which I have learned to play without music in front of me, I can remember decades later, words, chords, tune, even inflections and fills.
Tunes which I have played from music, perhaps a hundred times, are gone as soon as the book closes. I could not tell you the key or the first chord ten minutes later.
Incidentally, I always take my song book to a gig. If I know it's there, I don't forget the words. I don't need to look at it. I don't even need to open it. It works, because in my mind, it's a failsafe plan B, so I have nothing to worry about.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:42 AM

Last guest was me from work - sorry forgot to give name

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:41 AM

Scrump - - you wrote 'Beginners also usually don't know that many chords, so an Am7 or D9 or the like is a complete mystery.
If you see a chord like that, that you don't know, try substituting the 'plain' chord instead, e.g. Am instead of Am7, just for the purpose of learning the song. It won't sound exactly the same, but it will usually do to get you started.'


The original question was about being asked for the chords. If the beginner / novice / expert had the chords in front of them they wouldn't be asking for them – would they?

I cannot (mostly) busk on the fly but given time can usually work out something that works. My father (who died at 94yrs) was still playing until his death and could pick up any (I mean ANY) instrument and knock out a tune, Scotland the Brave, Grandfathers Clock etc. BUT, he could not tell me what chords to play, he just didn't understand the concept of chords. He just 'felt' the instrument. (This was wind, stringed, piano, accordion, concertina, harmonica etc). One of my brothers has the same ability, one cannot carry a tune in a bucket.
Point is, all of us enjoyed family singarounds.

If someone needs help – give it. I thought music was about pleasure and you do not have to be a maestro to enjoy it.

I recently had a mental block and could not fathom simple chords for a Bogle song. PEACE provided a start and when I spoke to Eric Bogle via email he himself admitted he couldn't remember the chords and had failed to work them out immediately. And as he said – he WROTE it.
I believe, as you stated, it is an inherent ability more pronounced in some than others. Be grateful, but don't knock those less fortunate! (Last sentence not aimed at SCRUMP)

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:37 AM

Chording a guitar is a very physical way to get a melodic result (if you can tune the guitar). Unlike many instruments, with chorded instruments, one can learn a physical way to produce music without knowing any music theory or having any particular "ear" for music.

I was blessed with a love of music, but a poor ear for it. (In third grade I was assigned the drums as I couldn't repeat a tune on other instruments). I started on guitar primarily because you don't have to read musci to learn to accompany a song.

I'm sixty years old now and a reasonably good guitarist who still does not sight read music. My talent comes more from experience (and love of music) than natural ability. I am one of the people who over the years has put in requests for chords. I can hear melodies fairly well, but I don't hear harmonies easily.


I think it is easy to learn to chord with a song without having much musical skill and I suspect that is why some guitar players picked up the instrument. I can convert melodies to chords fairly easily now, but sometimes I hear a chord in a song that I cannot reproduce. Those are the times I make chord requests.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:26 AM

re knowing the names of tunes - no, I usually don't because the lead musician (Richard) in the folk band I was in until 2005 never thought it necessary to tell the rest of us! All we ever needed to know was the key or keys that the piece or set was/were in. The moment he'd start, it was instant recognition. Because I'd been in another band in the late 19770s, where the leader did name the tunes, I would sometimes ask Richard if we ever played (say) The Full Rigged Ship and he'd tell me we'd already played it that evening.

With songs it's totally different - I can instantly remember the tune and the words if someone requests a particular song. The chords just fall into place.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Bee
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:51 AM

WYSIWYG said: "Sometimes the request also has to do with people who play hour after hour at home alone-- you know the syndrome-- locked away in their bedroom and afraid to let anyone hear them or just absorbed in the rich sound and feel of the wood. A lot of beginning guitar players seem to get lost there-- more guitarists than other instruments' players I mean-- and these folks honestly may not have any experience playing with other folks and swapping approaches "on the fly."

Some of us live in such isolated places that playing with other musicians is a rare and delightful experience, especially in winter! I've been learning for almost a year now, and have had exactly four opportunities to learn directly from another musician, other than asking them questions on the phone, which obviously ain't the same. I'm a touch un-nerved by WYSIWYG's vision, because it IS me, sort of, but isn't by any means a choice.

I'm rather proud of how much I've learned on my own. I can play and sing about fifty songs, about twenty chords (and can learn new ones as soon as I know what they are), have learned to add a basic bass line, have become more creative with my strumming. I'm managing to figure out chords for very simple tunes.

But I still need help with chords and I'm grateful for it when it's offered.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:24 AM

I never have any trouble with key changes in "session" situations-I somehow seem to know instinctively what key the others are shifting to---don"t ask me how !! Of course, I DO get caught out sometimes--everyone does ! But then I just stop playing until I hear a natural point at which to join back in again. This is actually very effective if several of you do it,especially in an Irish session !! So even if you"ve made a mistake,you learn to make it look as if you did it deliberately !! So if you can get into the habit of "holding back" after a key change sometimes, you"ll see what I mean !!

Yes, I know exactly what you mean, bubblyrat. If the tune isn't familiar to me, I sometimes play what I sometimes call 'non-committal' chords (probably modal chords, with drones or similar), which seem to sound more or less OK with what's being played. Then after the first time through the tune, I can usually play along properly, having got the tune in my head and knowing which chords to use.

I have never had any difficulty in learning almost any tune( it gets stuck in my head for days on end,night & day,until I can either accompany it,or play it,or both, and then it goes away !! Then it"s filed away !) but my BIG problem is remembering how a tune goes by the title !! People say " Do you know Thingybob?" ,& I say,"Yes,but I can"t remember how it goes/starts !".Then someone else starts it off,and it INSTANTLY floods back into the brainbox !! Does anyone else have that problem?? Scrump?? Terry ??

Yes, I have that problem all the time, not just with tunes but with songs. I may 'know' a song (perhaps I've got a record of it at home) but I'm not familiar enough with it to sing it myself, and can't remember the tune off the top of my head. I just ask the person to play or sing or hum a bit of it, and when I recognise it I'm away. As long as it's something I've heard before, there's no problem. I find names of tunes are more difficult to remember than tunes themselves, for some reason. Possibly because the names don't always have an obvious relation to the tune (there are some tunes that seem to reflect the names, but most don't IMO).

As I said earlier, I often find tunes easier to remember than words for some reason! I may be able to remember the tune of a song I haven't sung for a long time, without remembering many of the words. This seems to be a cause of surprise to some people, who seem to think words should be easier to remember than tunes.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:12 AM

Oh, you mean the other Terry

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:59 AM

I can identify very strongly with both Scrump and Terry. I have never been able to read,or even understand the terminology of, music, but I can hear a tune just once, and then make a decent go of accompanying it on guitar, and then eventually playing the tune itself. Also, I never have any trouble with key changes in "session" situations-I somehow seem to know instinctively what key the others are shifting to---don"t ask me how !! Of course, I DO get caught out sometimes--everyone does ! But then I just stop playing until I hear a natural point at which to join back in again. This is actually very effective if several of you do it,especially in an Irish session !! So even if you"ve made a mistake,you learn to make it look as if you did it deliberately !! So if you can get into the habit of "holding back" after a key change sometimes, you"ll see what I mean !! I have never had any difficulty in learning almost any tune( it gets stuck in my head for days on end,night & day,until I can either accompany it,or play it,or both, and then it goes away !! Then it"s filed away !) but my BIG problem is remembering how a tune goes by the title !! People say " Do you know Thingybob?" ,& I say,"Yes,but I can"t remember how it goes/starts !".Then someone else starts it off,and it INSTANTLY floods back into the brainbox !! Does anyone else have that problem?? Scrump?? Terry ??

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:27 AM

Music literacy (numeracy?) is just a skill. If you have it you are not automatically a 'better' musician. But it helps you become one. And it enables anyone trying to advise you to do so in more precise terms.

I agree countess - I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought I was a 'better' musician for seemingly having an ability that not everyone has. I know several better musicians than me, who seem to struggle if they don't have the music in front of them. But as musicians, they're better players than me. I couldn't do what they do any more than they could do what I do.

If you play in an orchestra, the ability to play without the music, or to follow a tune and accompany it, doesn't matter because this ability isn't required. It's more important to be able to play your instrument well, and play it as written (OK, that's an over-simplification, I know there's more to it than that!)

But for someone like me, playing in folk clubs or folk bands, the skill is very useful, and I would certainly find it more difficult without it.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:52 AM

"You know all the words
And you sung all the notes
But you never quite learned the song . . . " (Incredible String Band)

To understand how music 'works', it makes the task very much easier if you can follow and use the simple language in which it is expressed. This is not hard. Not to do so is a bit like saying that you want to act in dramas but don't want to go to the bother of learning to read first. Or be a mathematician solving the problems of the universe but think it beneath you to learn how to do long division first. Music literacy (numeracy?) is just a skill. If you have it you are not automatically a 'better' musician. But it helps you become one. And it enables anyone trying to advise you to do so in more precise terms.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:51 AM

Once again, I seem to be in exactly the same position as Scrump - I have no musical training at all, but (usually) find it easy to play the chords to folk tunes/songs that I've never heard before, particulary when I'm part of a band. Yet I have a friend who has played first baritone horn in a brass band since she was about 15. To this day, she cannot play a scale unless it is written down. I find that incomprensible.

To go back to a point I made earlier, surely you don't need to be 'musically gifted' to start playing a song in the key you've chosen and realise somewhere in the first line, it's time to change chord because the original one isn't 'fitting' anymore. When that point comes, the choice is limited - it's almost certainly going to be one of two chords (or perhaps three.)Isn't it?

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:20 AM

I still wonder whether there are two factors involved here: experience (from practice); and some sort of innate ability to be able to 'visualise' sounds and 'translate' them into a tune or chords.

It seems that some people are excellent musicians, but they are unable to play by ear (i.e. without having learnt from the printed music); or unable to listen to a piece of music and instinctively know how to play the appropriate chords; or whatever. I know a few like this myself.

I've been surprised a few times in the past when other musicians have seemed amazed (or at least fascinated) by the fact that people like me can (usually, there are exceptions!) pick up a tune and play along with it, or accompany a song or tune we've never played before.

I suppose I take this for granted, and it may be that I've got better at it with experience, but now I think about it, I think I've always been able to do this to some extent. I had piano lessons for a while as a kid, but before that I was able to play tunes and even simple chords on it without any musical training or knowledge. To me, being able to work out chords to a song or tune is no big deal - but I'm talking here about fairly simple music. (Ask me exactly how Nic Jones plays Canadee-i-o and I wouldn't be able to tell you. But give me enough time - lock me in a room with a guitar, the CD, a CD player, and no distractions - and I could probably work it out though.)

Maybe some people just lack this ability (to instinctively 'understand' how music 'works', perhaps?), and no amount of practice will make it happen for them? Some of the responses so far seem to me to indicate that might be the case. Does anyone else think this too, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:37 AM

Does it really matter why a person asks for help, surely if we need help, we need help, right?

I'm a classic example of someone who can't work out chords. I can work out melodies without the dots but chords are a complete mystery, so I need a lead sheet. It's not laziness either, I read music (in fact I won't attempt to play anything on piano without the music in front of me) and can spot harmonies, but to convert those harmonies into chords simply doesn't register. By the same token guitar chords written as dots are a waste of time, the chord symbols are so much easier.

The other thing is that often in this type of thread there seems to be a feeling that we must all devote the whole of our lives to practice, practice, practice, in order to get to be as good as we can. But for some of us, this amount of dedication is not worth the candle. I know my limitations and know I'll never amount to anything close to a proper musician but that doesn't stop me from wanting to try to play, nor does it prevent me getting a huge amount of pleasure from my attempts. But I do have lots of other interests too.

I don't think I've ever put in a request for chords in the past, but the attitude of some of the more accomplished people in this thread would certainly put me off asking for such help in the future.

Terry

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:29 PM

Thank you Tootler

Wanted to say something similar, but was tired last night.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:08 PM

There is nearly always more than one solution ... the sort of situation engineers and scientists hate but artists love.

<rant>
This is the kind of ignorant claptrap I have encountered all too often during my professional career, usually from people who have little idea what is involved in Science or Engineering.

Good engineering design involves identifying a range of solutions to a problem, then homing in on the most appropriate solution for the particular circumstance. For that reason, contrary to your belief, engineers are not uncomfortable with multiple solutions.

Sorry about the thread drift, but comments like the one above have always annoyed me.
</rant>

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:06 PM

I play guitar, almost always, in an open tuning and finger style, I have no 'sense' of chord sounds but for most song accompaniment I have no problem playing something (melody and bass line) that works. I also play english concertina. Therein lies my current problem-I still have no chord 'sense' but neither can I remember a damn tune. I can play fine from the dots but not from memory. I find this incredibly frustrating and what is even more frustrating is that doing what everyone says that you need to do to solve the problem is to PRACTICE- doesn't work. it's not as if I make the same mistakes in a tune, each time, they are different mistakes! Not with guitar, mandolin,flute those I can remember. Any suggestions would be welcome however the one that goes-practice hasn't worked so far
chris

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:45 PM

Well, we do see these requests here on a regular basis, but not usually from the same people over and over again. I think it's a stage in one's developing musicianship many of us go through.... from the answers that are given one usually gets not a cookie-cutter, definitive answer but a series of them, and that amounts to a wide range of different things to try.... you learn a lot by trying them, as well as learning how other, more experienced folks talk about it-- the language they use, the thought process.... makes it easier, I bet, to ask people in person.

Sometimes the request also has to do with people who play hour after hour at home alone-- you know the syndrome-- locked away in their bedroom and afraid to let anyone hear them or just absorbed in the rich sound and feel of the wood. A lot of beginning guitar players seem to get lost there-- more guitarists than other instruments' players I mean-- and these folks honestly may not have any experience playing with other folks and swapping approaches "on the fly."

Others lack transposing skills and are actually looking for that kind of help. They may hear a song in one key and get chords to it in another key, and not have the ear to realize there are two keys there-- that the chords they have will actually work if they just sing it in a different key from the one stuck in their heads off a recording.

~Susan

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:39 PM

I'm afraid some of us are illiterate when it comes to written music, countess. It's a shame and all that, but it's a fact.

The other side of that is there are people who can sight read, and can play excellently, but they freeze rigid at the very thought of playing without a score in front of them. You often get that with young people who don't yet appreciate what they can actually do if they jump in the deep end.

It happens with print as well, with people who don't trust themselves to sing without the words in front of them. Though that's more with older people who don't trust the old memory.
.........................
For most people the chords request for simple tunes is just a stage in building confidence. When it's a question of trying to find the chords played by a particular performer, or in a particular arrangement, it's a different matter - as Simon G for one pointed out, there are lots of different chords you could play for any note, let alone in the course of a tune. It's not hard getting chords that would fit generally - but finding the ones used in a particular setting is not that easy.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:02 PM

You're a wonderfully gifted lot. A while ago I found, elsewhere on the Forum, comments indicating the effect of experience (called "practice" when done formally) in different contexts on how one learns. Many of the postngs here have again reinforced this theme, although it hadn't penetrated my thinking on this,

For reasons I've mentioned elsewhere, I avoided learning to read music but singing and playing with many experienced people over the years has taught me a swag of theory and you've pointed out the various other entry points people use.

The recent comments about Cat, Dog Etc remind me of an occasion Mike Jackson (harmonicas) Tony Suttor (button accordion) and I (Anglo) were playing; Hyde Park during the Festival of Sydney. We'd started on of our band brackets (three 32 bar 'polkas', each played twice through) and, by the end of the first time through the third tune, Tony and I could see that Mike had a full head of steam up and would probably not be able to stop; the pace was pretty brisk. At the beginning of the last 8-bar phrase Mike yelled out "D!" By some miracle we all, in unison, went into "Soldiers' Joy."

More germane to the thread, when I was learning to play the Anglo I had only a 20 button Lachenal in C & G, when lots of tunes in sessions were in almost anything but C. My ear was OK picking up melody well enough but I couldn't discern. by ear, which key the tune was in. I relied on Tony's playing of his ADG accordion; if his fingers were on the inside row (G), I could reasonably attempt it on my G row. At one session I had to lean past a very good fiddler to see Tony's fingers; they were on the inside row.

"Ah, G" I muttered. "A minor" she corrected me.
At that time I knew just enough theory to be dangerous and knew that Imogen Holst's book had described minor scales as requiring more notes than you could get on a single row melodeon (which could play many minor scale tunes well enough) or even a 20 button Anglo. This confused me until I met a fiddler/violinist with seriously classical training but folk tendencies who explained the relationships between modes, scales and keys.

There are others on this thread who've posted very learnedly about this elsewhere and I have no wish to divert from the topic but the postings above have reminded me of the different gaps we have, the various ways people learn and the breadth of skills on offer.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:25 AM

Again, I agree with Scrump's last message,

Ta!

but I wish that B, C, D, E and G didn't sound the same when called out by a fiddler or accordianist when they're about to change key! I once tried to instigate a system whereby the lead player called out something like 'Cat' for C, and 'Dog' for D. It didn't work.

When leading, one of our accordion players just tends to let out a sort of 'whoop!' when it's time to change tune, so if you don't already know what key the next tune's in, you're b*gg*red - that's why I like to know the keys in advance :-)

Another reason I like to know all the keys in advance is that I sometimes use a capo for certain tunes, as I can do different things to make it more interesting. But of course I don't do this for sets of more than one tune, if it would mean having to remove the capo in the middle of the set. We do play some pairs of tunes where I prefer to use the capo, as I find I can do more interesting things, e.g. I sometimes capo on 2nd fret and play G and D instead of A and E. Sometimes I might play the accompaniment with the capo, sometimes without, to make things more interesting for me, if no-one else.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:14 AM

"Beginners also usually don't know that many chords, so an Am7 or D9 or the like is a complete mystery.

If you see a chord like that, that you don't know, try substituting the 'plain' chord instead, e.g. Am instead of Am7, just for the purpose of learning the song. It won't sound exactly the same, but it will usually do to get you started."


Well, Piano Accordions don't have buttons for all those advanced chords guitarists love.... some of them CAN be fudged with combinations of multiple chord buttons, but that takes ages of training and memory.... so we often fake the thing by using the basic Major or Minor chord.

You have no choice to do other than that with a 'small box' that doesn't have all the normal (6) rows anyway! And the secret to that trick is that those 'special' notes that give the 'feel' of those non-basic chords are usually being played on the keyboard anyway... oh, and the 'chord buttons' come with ONLY ONE FIXED 'inversion position' ...





~~~~~~~~~~~
"Foolstroupe - thanks, but honestly, it was practice, practice, practice. "

Well, that's how all of us 'classically trained musos' learnt it - so does that mean the others, just don't practice enough?



;~)

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Bee
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:56 AM

Try 'Echidna' - nowhere near as intimidating.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:49 AM

Yup - elephant was my choice for 'E'. I think you've just explained why it didn't work.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:42 AM

I once tried to instigate a system whereby the lead player called out something like 'Cat' for C, and 'Dog' for D. It didn't work.

LOL! I can imagine the leader shouting "Elephant!" and the musicians stopping and looking around anxiously and saying "Where?!"

:D

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:40 AM

"...just sit there like dumplings with
no idea what to do. Am I supposed to come with a chord chart written out in felt marker
and hold it up?"

Well, if you want accompaniment, you'll have to provide whatever the other player(s) might need. An ensemble can only play to the level of its least skilled. But you may not want accompaniment. If you want to be the "star", and to hell with the rest of the group who are merely basking in your glow, well then, let 'em all figure it out for themselves. Playing in a session, playing with an ensemble is, after all, all about you (the fiddler). :^)

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:37 AM

Again, I agree with Scrump's last message, but I wish that B, C, D, E and G didn't sound the same when called out by a fiddler or accordianist when they're about to change key! I once tried to instigate a system whereby the lead player called out something like 'Cat' for C, and 'Dog' for D. It didn't work.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Simon G
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:35 AM

I don't think anyone answered Rowan's question, so lets have a go.

Melodies are easy, one note follows another in a fairly predictable way and most of us can sing along to a melody quickly -- millions do this in church or at a football ground every weekend.

Guitars and the like are providing the harmonies that give the song body. Suddenly there is more than one choice at every note in the melody, in fact there are often lots of choices at a note and each chord will give the song a different feel, jazzy, soulful, traditional, etc It is a lot more difficult to spot the chord (several notes) that gives the feel you want. Trouble is if you want say a traditional feel to a whole song your going to have to get the right chord at every change or the feel will break down.

There is nearly always more than one solution (set of chords), the sort of situation engineers and scientists hate but artists love. There is a song two of us sing at our folk club using completely different chords. We are both right the chords used fit the way we individually sing the song. The important thing is never to take the chords provided as the whole truth and nothing but the truth; you might need to vary them to fit your singing or the other guys singing fi you are accompanying.

Finger picking makes it even more complicated because often the choice of strings picked makes a basic chord into another, the songbook will list the basic chord but you know you can hear something different.

It does amaze me how some people can play the right chord first time, or get close first time and get the right one on the second verse. It does boil down to practice, practice, practice generating new pathways in your brain which collect the last few notes of the melody, the last chord played and the next note (or even a prediction of the next note) and workout a chord for you. I can't do it, but I don't practice enough.

Most embarrasingly I was trying to work out the chords for a song recently and ended up with a really complicated set which almost but didn't quite work out. My wife Sandra played along to the CD and went straight into D A G all the way through; did I feel dumb or what, I had assumed the song was in a different key and not bothered to check the melody. Maybe with another 50 years practice I'll be more musical by the time I'm 98.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:33 AM

Taking the words with you? Never! Not allowed in my day, and I was horrified to find (when I began my 'comeback') that a majority of people at the folk club that I go to every Thursday have their 'songbook' with them and turn to the appropriate page before singing. When did they change the law to allow this?

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I don't have the words there in a folk club. I was talking about a band gig (barn dance or private event) where we usually have music with us. Because I have the music stand there, I may 'cheat' by having the words of a song I don't do very often - as I said, it may be a special request for a song we don't normally do. I can get away with this because of the setting - it's not like a folk club environment.

Beginners also usually don't know that many chords, so an Am7 or D9 or the like is a complete mystery.

If you see a chord like that, that you don't know, try substituting the 'plain' chord instead, e.g. Am instead of Am7, just for the purpose of learning the song. It won't sound exactly the same, but it will usually do to get you started.

Then if you want to you can look up the chords you don't know, and work those in as well. It's a good way to expand your chord 'repertoire' - and some of these chords are easy to play anyway.

If I'm asked to supply chords for a song, I try to keep it simple, on the basis that the person asking for them is probably a beginner or not very experienced. So I'll try to provide chords that give the bare bones of the accompaniment, rather than every nuance that you might hear by a good player. That will come with experience, and you can work up to that.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Johnmc
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:28 AM

Scrump has summed it up well, but I accept that some guitarists won't respond. Then again, it only needs one.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:28 AM

After many years of ineptitude, I can usually work out a usable set of chords, but it's a real pleasure when someone far more capable than me points me in the direction of something more obscure than I would have found for mysef. To take a couple of examples from someone not usually considered a complex musician, 'Boots of Spanish Leather' in G is transformed by an Em9, and 'When the Deal Goes Down' in C has a nice-sounding G11 (all subject to the vagaries of my memory) - I can't imagine how long it would have taken me to find those. Actually, I probably wouldn't even have bothered as both songs can be done using straightforward chords, but they lose a lot.

So thanks to everyone who responds to a request for chords, from those of us who can't.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:22 AM

"A great frustration is when someone, usually a fiddler, starts up a set of tunes and by just imparting a little info could have guitarists providing at least a basic accompaniment."

What information would you want imparted? I've tried saying "this is a set of reels in D" and watched (mostly pop and country trained) guitarists just sit there like dumplings with no idea what to do. Am I supposed to come with a chord chart written out in felt marker
and hold it up? Something short of that must work, surely?

All I want to know is what key it's in, and whether it's a jig, reel, hornpipe, slip jig, slow air, or whatever, and I can usually accompany it (it would have to be something pretty weird for me not to be able to). If it's more than one tune played as a set, I'd like to know in advance which key each tune is in, and how many times through, or ideally get a nod or shout from the leader just before the change, and again before the end. Doesn't always happen that way, but I can usually cope!

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:22 AM

What information would you want imparted? I've tried saying "this is a set of reels in D"

This is precisely what I meant when I said Given a key, the basic chords are bleedin' obvious (aren't they?).

What more does a bunch of guitarists need? Yet, speaking as a fiddler, I've sometimes asked what key they're playing in (it being just a little unclear from the shapes I'm looking at) and they don't know. Or else starting up a tune at a session (that doesn't happen very often!) to be told: That's not in D (or whatever) and that's what we're playing in today.

What was I saying about playing by numbers?

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Bee
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:18 AM

Speaking as a relative beginner (been teaching myself guitar for a year), I've just begun to be able to 'hear' a few chords from listening to a CD of the tune. But much of the time I'm trying to learn songs which I can sing, because I've known the melody for years, but I have no recording of the song. Or I've heard the song often enough that with the chords, I'll be able to sing it. For me, it is ear training, I think, and I expect to get better at it, but in the meantime, I usually have to ask for help with the chords.

Often I find the recorded tune has ornamentation, other instruments, etc., which make it harder for me to identify what exactly is going on in the tune behind the singer's voice. Or the tune has been altered by the performer as suited them, but conflicts with how I may have learned the tune (singing) from another performer

Beginners also usually don't know that many chords, so an Am7 or D9 or the like is a complete mystery.

Without chord help from Mudcatters, I'd be playing far fewer tunes than I am, and as an older learner, learning more tunes is my main goal. The more skills I learn as I go along, the happier I'll be, but in the meantime, I want to work with what I have.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:14 AM

Taking the words with you? Never! Not allowed in my day, and I was horrified to find (when I began my 'comeback') that a majority of people at the folk club that I go to every Thursday have their 'songbook' with them and turn to the appropriate page before singing. When did they change the law to allow this?

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:06 AM

"A great frustration is when someone, usually a fiddler, starts up a set of tunes and by
just imparting a little info could have guitarists providing at least a basic accompaniment."

What information would you want imparted? I've tried saying "this is a set of reels in D"
and watched (mostly pop and country trained) guitarists just sit there like dumplings with
no idea what to do. Am I supposed to come with a chord chart written out in felt marker
and hold it up? Something short of that must work, surely?

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:03 AM

"musci" - I meant "music"

That's what notes do on the way to my fingers if I haven't written them down. Thanks Scrump. Next question: Why can't I reproduce exactly what I hear and see in my head (because I see the notes floating in front of me and hear inwardly a perfect rendition)? OK, I know. Practice and more practice.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:03 AM

I usually assume that a chord request is either for:

... a suitable accompaniment, but for a song that's not easily figured out by ear. To my old-timey/bluegrass ear, I still have trouble coming up with suitable accompaniment for Celtic fiddle tunes.

... a "signature" chord or two. Sometimes a song is brought to mind by, not just a chord, but a particular way to play a chord -- maybe a simple inversion of the chord. For instance, try to play a Travis song with only the first position E chord. You could sing along, but it'd never sound "right".

... some chord progressions regularly confuse beginning to intermediate players. For instance, one of the most often confusing (to the beginner) progressions is the major to minor that, rather than going to the relative minor (like G to Em), is actually going to the minor of the chord (G to Gm). For some reason, though the beginner can hear the change to minor, they can't seem to find which minor.

When a chord progression is confusing, one can either go through all the chords in their chord book, or they can post here. We'll happily answer. It beats all hell out of yet another political arguement.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:53 AM

Dagnabit "musci" - I meant "music"

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:46 AM

Playing by ear: Ha! Well, actually I can (sometimes) but only to myself. I never risk it among others, for fear of getting it wrong and making an arse of myself. Why, since I've always sung by ear from being a child in the choir before having any formal music lessons? Why do I always have to write down a part to play on an instrument but not necessarily to sing it? I have a theory that there is a difference between the transference of a note from ear to vocal chords and the process of transferring that same note from ear to fingers. Does anyone else have this impediment or am I just terminally lacking in confidence?

It sounds as if it might be a confidence issue, countess - but I hope it's not terminal!

It's not quite the same thing, but my bugbear is forgetting the words of songs, rather than tunes. The other day, a fellow band member asked if I could play a particular song. I immediately started to play it on guitar, but said I'd need to re-learn the words, as I hadn't sung it for years (ooerr, probably about 30 years now I come to think about it!). She seemed surprised that I could remember tunes but not words. I in turn was surprised at her being surprised!

In folk clubs I normally sing the words from memory, like most other people, but occasionally at band gigs I have the words handy on a music stand, especially for songs we are asked to do as a one-off (perhaps for a special occasion). I sometimes think I'd be better off without the words there, because I find myself looking at them when I probably don't need to. I think this is a confidence thing - because the words are there in front of me, I seem to doubt my memory and want to check.

That aside brings me back to the questions posed by the countess. Maybe if you tried to play without the music, it would help you build confidence in your ability to do it. Perhaps you think you need the musci there, when you don't really?

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Johnmc
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:24 AM

I have sometimes been surprised to find that the chords I worked out for a particular recording (as opposed to my own arrangement), and which I was quite satisfied with, omitted a subtle one.
For example, I played Norwegian Wood for years without a minor seventh chord untiol, on listening to the track more closely for a performance, I noticed it coming in there. I find it more pleasing to play now.
A more refined area is wanting the basic chords so that you can transfer the song
to open tuning; sometimes this is not as helpful as one hopes.
A great frustration is when someone, usually a fiddler, starts up a set of tunes
and by just imparting a little info could have guitarists providing at least a basic accompaniment. I can say with some conviction that this would be beneficial because I've all but given up playing jigs and reels on the banjo because people haven't joined in and I feel on one's own it is pretty dull for the listener. I have tried telling folk the basic chords in advance too!

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Grab
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:20 AM

Sometimes the melody genuinely isn't clear for chords. For example, "Ten penny bit" can be accompanied with Am and G throughout, but Am, G and D fits it better, and changing some G chords to Em makes for a more interesting backing.

Or the tune might be modal, in which case different chords might apply. It might not be obvious whether it's modal or not, in which case you can choose which way to go - "Ten penny bit" again can be done with A (major) instead of Am, and you've got yourself a completely different feel to the tune.

And if you're trying to reproduce what someone's doing off a recording then it might be hard to pick up exactly what they're doing, especially if they're using hammerons, chords outside your basic triad (eg. sus2, sus4, m7), altered tunings, etc. Your typical beginner won't be able to figure out most of this, and some of it might be out of reach of your intermediate player too.

Sure, your experienced player will be able to work it out. But your experienced fiddle/box player won't need the dots - they'll be able to pick up tunes by ear from a recording or playing along in a session. So should we wonder about "tune req" posts, or the existence of sheet music for fiddle tunes...? ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:16 AM

Playing by ear: Ha! Well, actually I can (sometimes) but only to myself. I never risk it among others, for fear of getting it wrong and making an arse of myself. Why, since I've always sung by ear from being a child in the choir before having any formal music lessons? Why do I always have to write down a part to play on an instrument but not necessarily to sing it? I have a theory that there is a difference between the transference of a note from ear to vocal chords and the process of transferring that same note from ear to fingers. Does anyone else have this impediment or am I just terminally lacking in confidence?

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:10 AM

Foolstroupe - thanks, but honestly, it was practice, practice, practice.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:04 AM

I use one "chord" in St James Infirmary that is not in any book I have ever seen but it had the notes I wanted!

That's fine as far as I'm concerned! When I want to sing a song I haven't done before, I'll work out an arrangement that suits me. I won't necessarily use the same chords as the person I'm copying it from. I might transpose it into a different key, possibly for the reason I find it easier to get the effect I want in that key; or maybe simply because it's easier to sing and/or play in that key. I'll just use the original performance or recording as a guide to the chord structure of the song. I wouldn't want to slavishly copy the original anyway, and prefer to apply my own ideas to the song.

Given a key, the basic chords are bleedin' obvious (aren't they?), though of course it does help to first work out what tuning the performer you are trying to copy is in. And then just experiment.

Yes, often the basic chords are obvious to you and me and others, countess, but I think the point of this thread is that they're not at all obvious to some people, which is why we're discussing it.

As for the tuning, I don't play much in tunings other than standard; so often, if the original artist uses a non-standard one, I'll use the nearest standard tuning equivalent (possibly transposed as above).

From the responses so far, it seems there may be an element of experience coming into it, but it could be partly due to a natural ability. It may be the same reason why some people can play by ear and some don't seem to be able to.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:58 AM

"I'm certainly not a 'natural' musician but over the years I've developed the ability to instinctively work out the chord sequence (or the chords that fit)for any song I want to sing."

Oh, but you are, you just don't want to admit it...

"Presumably it was a mark of 'f*lk credibility' to be unable to read off the melody from the notation given but I really do think this is just so much pretentious nonsense. Sight reading and basic harmony are just skills that make musical communication and learning simpler. ... SNIP ... part of the problem is the fixation held by some that any formal musical knowledge is just not f*lk. "

I agree. The more experienced a muso, the more they know, even if they just pick it up as they go along.

The pretentious ignoramuses are just mentally f**ked up...

:~)

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:41 AM

I have sometimes replied to such a request with the tune notation and been told this is 'meaningless' and what the original poster wanted was the chords or the tablature. This always strikes me as 'playing by numbers'. Given a key, the basic chords are bleedin' obvious (aren't they?), though of course it does help to first work out what tuning the performer you are trying to copy is in. And then just experiment.

As Scrump says, it's just a skill that you might get quicker at (so I'm told and one day I might do it faster if I didn't feel compelled to write everything out before playing). On the other hand, part of the problem is the fixation held by some that any formal musical knowledge is just not f*lk.

In a thread about Willie o' Winsbury, someone complained that the chords given 'don't seem to work'. Problem was that s/he was using one of the alternate tunes, so of course they didn't. Presumably it was a mark of 'f*lk credibility' to be unable to read off the melody from the notation given but I really do think this is just so much pretentious nonsense. Sight reading and basic harmony are just skills that make musical communication and learning simpler.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:38 AM

A lot of folk drops to the relative major at some point and if you are thinking "3 chord trick" it won't work.

Likewise there are some (they usually seem to be in D for some reason) that have BOTH a Bm and a Bmaj in.

The nearly chromatic run down in the middle of Henry Martin is not an easy find, and I use one "chord" in St James Infirmary that is not in any book I have ever seen but it had the notes I wanted!

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:33 AM

As with the accompanied or unaccompanied thread, I find myself in complete agreement with Scrump. (You can always tell an intelligent and well informed person - they have the same views as yourself.)

Surely the trick is to start singing the song to yourself in the chosen key, playing the basic chord (e.g. D) at the same time. Quite quickl it will be obvious that a change of chord is needed and it will (almost) always be (in D) G, A (or A7) or Bm that fits. It's trial and error - and that might include 'training' one's ear - but it will eventually work out. I certainly found it difficult when I was a young skiffler! Now it's easy(ish)

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:16 AM

Interesting questions raised here. It has been discussed in other threads but I haven't seen a thread just dealing with the subject.

As a guitarist myself, I'm sometimes surprised by requests for the chords to very simple 3-chord tunes and the like, and I just assume the person making the request is perhaps a beginner.

But maybe that's not the case, and some people genuinely can't work out chords from themselves?

I generally seem to be able to work out chords to a song or tune, even if I've never heard it before, and can often do it on the fly (I've even been forced to do this on the odd occasion when playing in a band gig, where because of some oversight or other cockup the leader played a tune we hadn't rehearsed, and I had to make up the chords as I went along. I always seem to get away with it, but I wouldn't recommend it as a rule!)

There are exceptions, though. Sometimes a song accompaniment uses 'unusual' chords or chord sequences that are more difficult to work out if you haven't played anything similar, or maybe they are played in a different tuning. Some of the requests you see on Mudcat are for things of this type (e.g. there was one recently for a Nick Jones song played in a non-standard tuning).

But assuming a song isn't too unusual in structure, I can usually work out how to play it fairly quickly. Maybe it's some kind of skill I have that not all musicians do; or maybe it just comes with experience?

I do know some musicians who are good at what they do, but don't seem to be able to pick up a new tune or song very easily, so I can't help wondering whether the ability to work out chords is a skill you are born with, or something you acquire by experience.

I tend to watch other guitarists if I'm interested in learning how they do things (it may have been I who made the remark about watching their fingering). I've picked up a few useful 'tips' that way that I've been able to use to advantage. Although I've been playing guitar for more years than I care to remember, I realise I will never learn everything there is to know, which keeps the interest alive for me.

I would think chord requests aren't exclusive to guitar players though - apart from other stringed instruments (bouzoukis, mandolas etc.) I would have thought accordionists would need to know as well, and any other instruments capable of playing chords.

Hopefully we will get some more feedback from other musicians.

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:48 AM

Interesting question. I'm certainly not a 'natural' musician but over the years I've developed the ability to instinctively work out the chord sequence (or the chords that fit)for any song I want to sing. Once I've found a suitable key, it usually just falls into place, not least because there are only a few that will fit, so it's a matter of elimination. (I'm not talking jazz here with its seemingly unlimited 9ths, 13ths, diminisheds etc) It's very rare for there to be a traditonal or traditional-type song that has a 'weird' chord slotted in. If I have do have a problem, I'm lucky in that I can simply ask my middle son, who has perfect pitch, what he's hearing that I'm not.

But I would stress that it's years of practice and experience. I suppose playing in a folk-band, i.e. for dance, has helped - when the accordian player suddenly went into a tune I've never heard before, I would go into automatic pilot and follow the basic melody using just the three or four chords that the key calls for. In fact, it was rare to be told the name of the tunes we'd be about to play - it was usally 'DGAM'(keys of D, G,then into Am)or 'G all the way.'

Subject: RE: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 02:45 AM

Hi, Rowan - I'm a singer, but I've fooled around with guitars for years and never gotten anywhere. To play a song, I have to have the chords written out. I can learn to sing a song "by ear," but guitar chords don't make that much sense to me. It seems like there should be a sense to it, but I haven't found it.

I have two sons who are wonderful guitarists, but I'm resigned to the fact that I'll never play well enough to want anybody to listen to me.
-Joe-

Subject: 'Chords Request' curiosity question
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 02:10 AM

Over my time with Mudcat's Forum I've seen the "Chords Request" prefix countless times and it made me wonder. As a singer and a player of tunes on a concertina I can understand requests for melody info but I wonder if it's mostly guitar players who ask for chords. If so, is the melody insufficient for them to "get" the tune? Another thread currently dealing with singing has a posting about guitarists watching other guitarists's fingering as an aid to accompaniment when learning a tune (I've also seen them picking up 'new' chord patterns) but players of other instruments don't seem to need such observations and just go for the melody. Not being a guitarist I thought I'd ask. It may have been thoroughly discussed elsewhere but I've not yet found it, if it has.

Cheers, Rowan