BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:44 AM

McGrath and Bob-

"Measure for measure" about sums it up!

Another early musing on the question of less than scrupulous builders and architects is revealed here (quoting from my manuscript):

What new householder hasn't expressed sentiments similar to those of Annaeus Seneca (4 B.C. to 65 A.D.) bitterly lamenting the state of the art in the building industry:

Life is the gift of the immortal gods, living well is
the gift of philosophy. Was it philosophy that erected
all the towering tenements, so dangerous to the persons
who dwell in them? Believe me, that was a happy age,
before the days of architects, before the days of builders.

Warm regards,
Landlady's Daughter

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:29 PM

"two shekles of siver per 12 square feet ..."! Even by today's standards that's overpricing. Seems like little has changed. But ... I LOVE the part where the builder's child gets to die. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:57 PM

It appears that if it's his wife gets killed, not to worry...

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

Just to provide some perspective on the issue of shoddy builders:

Sometime between 1792 and 1750 B.C. one Hammurabi, the 6th and best known king of the first Amorite Dynasty, issued a model building code. Unlike more contemporary codes, representing some compromise between social priorities and technical requirements, the Hammurabi Code is clear and to the point. Especially so for those who transgressed it:

228          If a builder builds a house for a man and completes it,
                that man shall pay him two shekels of silver per sar
                (approximately 12 square feet) of house as his wage.

229        If a builder has built a house for a man and his work is
                not strong, and if the house he has built falls in and kills
                the householder, that builder shall be slain.

230        If the child of the householder be killed, the child of that
                builder shall be slain.

231        If the slave of the householder be killed, he shall give
                slave for slave to the householder.

232        If goods have been destroyed, he shall replace all that
                has been destroyed; and because the house that he built
                was not made strong, and it has fallen in, he shall
                restore the fallen house out of his own material.

233        If a builder has built a house for a man, and his work is
                not done properly and a wall shifts, then that builder
                shall make that wall good with his own silver.

The above is from my working draft of the HOUSING AND NEIGHBORHOOD ORGANIZING SONGBOOK.

Warm regards,
Landlady's Daughter

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:54 PM

When we had an extension built a few year back the building inspector was very helpful in making sure the builders didn't rip us off. (Not the builders themselves, their bosses.)

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 10:06 PM

Charley

we have had similar incidents here in Australia too...

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

Dickey,

I remember that incident real well tho it wasn't actaully in Fairfax County, was it??? I thought it was Arlington but real close to the line??? It was Bailey's Crossorads (Columbia Pike and Rt.7) and was a highrise being built where I first sucessfully landed a taildragger Piper Cub at the ol' airfield cross from the drive-in theater..

I was workin' two miles from that job an' had almost taken a job on that project that would have had me in the wrong place at the wrong time... Fortunately, I got a temp job with Dittmar Construction Co. doing maintanance between real jobs... Paid well...

Yeah, that was a terrible collapse an' it could have been prevented if the inspectors had forced the bulder to let the concrete set up before stackin' another floor on top...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:20 PM

BTW... let us not confuse building inspectors with "Home Inspectors".

AmeriSpec, Housemaster, Pillar To Post, etcetera.... watch your ass... I have seen these guys first hand as I was in the business. I got out of the business because I am an honest man and could not compete with these guys and their real estate agents. The horror stories I could relate to you... shameful! Their affiliation with ASHI and CAHI mean NOTHING! Read the fine print before you get screwed.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:09 PM

I agree with your post of 08 Mar 06:42 PM, Bob, sort of what we've found here too, after more than 35 years in the business. If you are consistantly having problems with building inspectors in all jurisdictions where you work, its time for a little adjustment of your attitude and a substantial improvement in your workmanship.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 03:15 PM

Here are the famous squirrel obstacle course videos.They REALLY want that free lunch!

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 03:03 PM

A few years ago there was an incident reported in the Portland newspapers in Maine which inspired this song:

By Charlie Ipcar © 1992
Tune: after theme song from Beverly Hillbillies'

Key: F (C/5)
Treehouse

C---------------G
Ben built a house, high up in a tree,
--------------------C
Ben built a house for everyone to see;
-----------------------F
It had cedar shingles and a plywood floor,
G------------------------G7---- C
Three small windows and a big front door.


Ben built a house for all his friends to share,
They'd play all day, high up in the air;
The birds and squirrels were very surprised to see
Three little kids hanging out in a tree.

But the next door neighbor shook his head and swore,
"The City's gonna hear about this big eyesore!"
Inspector Rowe came by, and a letter soon was sent;
You know, Ben hadn't filed for a building permit.

"You can't build a treehouse without central heat,
A bathroom, a kitchen, or a bedroom suite;
The codes are quite specific," said Inspector Rowe;
"A building is a building, and this one's got to go!"

Now Ben and his family don't know what to do,
Some friends urge compliance, some urge them to sue;
When you're only seven it's so hard to understand,
Why a treehouse in everyone's front yard isn't part of the City's master plan!

The case was amicably resolved between the treehouse builder and the Building Department but the next door neighbor was quite pissed. I'll have to see if the treehouse is still there the next time I'm in Portland.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:36 AM

My inspector was bought off more than a politician.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:14 AM

The reputed worst Aussie Inspectors are alleged to be The Main Roads Weights and Measures Inspectors - the Truckies call them 'Mermaids'... so I have heard....

Well, look, if you don't get it - I'll just give you a hint - it's got something to do with their having 'scales'....

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 05:18 PM

In the UK the building regs are merely 'approved documents'intended only as guidelines and in themselves have no legally-enforcable standing. As such they are supposed to be subject to interpretation (as in the case of listed buildings with PPG15).
But, most BCOs are inadequately-trained and have little experience of anything other than bog-standard building techniques, and thus will often refuse to negotation on interpretation.
Things became far worse last April with the new, post-Kyoto, approved docs, including Part L, which deals with insulation. Even the government now admits that the regs are now absurdly complex - and have commissioned a 'think tank' to come with with secondary documents and interpretation guides.
That is a long way off, however, and until then the building industry will remain subject the the caprice of the BCOs. Some of them are good, mut many of them are a***holes. After all, anyone with the nous chooses to become a surveyor or a structural engineer rather than work in an understaffed and overworked environment.
The US situation is different, and I mean no offences to US building inspectors.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: gnu
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 05:03 PM

I know that, Becca. Sorry if my post seemed to imply otherwise. I certainly didn't meant it that way.

Bob... most building authorites require the approval of a registered engineer or architect for buildings which are not "covered" in the code. Sounds like your buddy designed such a structure. Sounds like the county building department didn't have anyone on staff who would "sign off" on the building permit. Seems par for the course. As you may or may not know, they cannot stop anyone from building unless there is a code violation. Of course, if the building wasn't to code or not designed by a qualified professioanal, it didn't meet code in the first place.

Now, the fact that these guys decided that they know more than a structural engineer means to me that they were some lucky guys.

And, if that inspector had worked for me, he wouldn't.

Apparently, in your jurisdiction, you need some inspectors to inspect your inspectors.

I am going to leave this thread now because I like you and respect you, Bob, and I have said enough to make my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Bert
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 04:54 PM

...It is a WRITTEN LAW. If you can read, you can follow the code...

But BOCA code says that the inspector has complete freedom in interpreting the code.

And what's the use of a written code if the A-Hole won't give you a permit in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 04:20 PM

Some years ago, perhaps 20, good friends of mine designed and built one of the most magnificent buildings I've ever seen. This was in a very remote and mountanous region in Western Washington. He, of "Her and Him", is an artist, as in wood sculpter. When he applied for the required building permit, the county building department just shook their heads and said something like: "It can't be done."

My friends perservered, WITHOUT having to hire an expensive structural engineer. They did several things, one of which was to build a scale model of the building, and they ALSO got to know their local building inspector. (this scale model itself was a piece of art).

When push came to shove, they got the permit BECAUSE the local inspector not only vouched for the safety of the proposed project, but he himself signed on as one of the volunteers to help build it. True story!

For many years I dreamed about owning that building some day, but it never happened. As I said earlier, there are inspectors, and then there are inspectors. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Becca72
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 04:01 PM

Gnu, I in no way meant to imply that anyone had a right to be dishonest for any reason when it comes to things like building codes. My supervisor could be the biggest prick on the planet, but that doesn't give me an excuse to half-ass my job...Just meant that in my experience I've known more on-the-level (pun intended) inspectors than I have builders.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: gnu
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 03:51 PM

But, Becca, even if not, how can anyone say that dishonesty by building inspectors gives builders the right to be dishonest and or to violate law and place the public in danger by not adhering to the the MINIMUM standards of the building code?

Of course, such an attitude among builders does not surprise me. I have been at this racket for 32 years. And, I have seen many builders who were FORCED to cut corners in order to put food on the table for their families. When it's a "little" corner, you make them correct it and don't put them out of business. When they play games... well... as was said above, the inspectors have the power, and thank goodness they do.

By the way, I found it comical about purposefully leaving small items for the building inspector to pick up on... they are some stupid, eh? Imagine... you fuck up royally on minor stuff and that there inspector don't even think you might not know what you is doin', huh?... hyuk, hyuk. Brilliant startegy.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Becca72
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 03:09 PM

You tell 'em, Gnu.
In my work at a real estate law firm I ran into many more dishonest contractors and builders than I ever did building inspectors...

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:58 PM

I think we have two, then.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: gnu
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:57 PM

Yes, Susan, we do. Me. What a load of complete horseshit!

If you are worth two cents, you do your job properly. The code is meant as a minimum to ensure public safety. The only reason for not meeting MINIMUM codes is that you can't do your job as good as the next guy, so, you cut corners to try to compete.

The code is the code. How can an inspector be a prick or an idiot for enforcing the code? It is a WRITTEN LAW. If you can read, you can follow the code. If not, perhaps you should check out other employ.

I have well over $200M of construction design and inspection under my belt. And I have NEVER disregarded the code.

Oh, yeah, BTW, I have caught MANY contractors cutting corners and I cut them off at the knees. Safety is safety.

gnu, M.Sc.Eng., P.Eng.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 11:45 AM

Don't we have a Mudcatter that's a building inspector? I bet the thread title made their day, and their joy complete!

What about moving into an apartment where the local building inspectors had been bamboozled for years, into not knowing about the gallons of water that would pour in through the window casings with a good hard rainstorm? Nothing much wrong with the inspected window-- the mortar between the bricks was so far gone that the shell of the building was quite porous. A good building inspector was sent over by the town gummint agency I complained to, and I WON.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Bert
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 11:40 AM

The problem here lies in the first page or two of the BOCA code, which gives inspectors complete authority in how THEY interpret the code. It also protects them from being sued.

I want a job like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:57 PM

OR ... with appologies to Pete Seeger:

Who's going to inspect the inspection man who inspects the inspectors! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:05 PM

To the tune of "Weary Hobo":

I know inspectors give you trouble;
They give trouble everywhere;
But when you die and go to Heaven,
You'll find no inspectors there!

Warm regards,
Landlady's Daughter

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Bert
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 06:45 PM

...you don't have to bribe them, but...

If you refuse to hire their relative to do your electrical work then you won't get a permit.

Joe, I'm not biased, Just stating what happened to me.

Funnily enough, when I was in the Middle East, I never had any problems with inspectors.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:40 PM

Thanks everyone for there input to my thread. I have been in the building trade for 38 years. I do not abide by the"CODE" I abide by the Building Regulations of England but over the past few years I have had to deal with these"building inspectors" who it appears to me have never lifted a house brick. Most of them seem to have a jumped up oppinion of themselves. If you dont call them Mr you are straight on to thin ice. They will do anything in there power to obstruct any work you have done or are in the proccess of doing.
I always thought that Customs had alot of power but they are just beginners when compared to our ILLUSTRIOUS BUILDING INSPECTORS.

Got to go now I have a meeting with one of the above mentioned A--Holes in the morning. Got to practice my grovelling technique.
                      CHEERS MICK.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:14 PM

I gotta' tell you Joe, you sure know how to kill a thread! (BG)

Now then I once witnessed an inspection where was this beautiful blonde ... Oh, never mind! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:30 PM

Back in 1973 in Fairfax County Va, a high rise buiding that was under construction collapsed due to not letting the concrete cure long enough. 14 People died and it touched off a round of code tightning and anal oriented inspectors like you wouldn't believe. It even bled over into other departments like the health departmentand into DC and Maryland.

For years it seemed like they just did not want anything built. It slowly faded away and now things seem to be back to normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:05 PM

It's a thankless job. Who'd want to be a building inspector when people talk about you like the messages posted above? No wonder they can't get decent people in the job.

There are a number of factors involved. Planning departments are torn by an number of conflicting factors and political influences, and governments aren't always wise and fair and practical in the building ordinances they enact. There are incompetent and mediocre employees everywhere, and the world survives; but if you put authority in the hands of the mediocre and the incompetent, all hell can break loose.

That being said, I've had contact with a number of building inspectors who WERE competent and fair, who really believed in making sure a builder did a good job for the customer. Many had worked in construction for a career, until the physical strain got too much for their bodies.

Trouble is, nost of the good inspectors I met had gone on to FEMA to do disaster reconstruction inspection, where people didn't hate them so much.

-Joe Offer-

I have to say, I sure hate Mudcat when threads are chiefly rash, hateful, biased generalities. I didn't see a fair post in the lot, until Deckman posted his.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 07:40 PM

Exactly, Bob...

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:42 PM

I've been a builder most of my life. I live in a densly populated area just North of seattle. As a result, I have to work in probably 25 different jurisdictions, towns and counties. Each jurisdiction has it's own codes and quirks. There are SOME areas I simply will NOT build in.

Over the years I've had some seriously bad run-ins with bad inspectors. And occaionally the opposite has been true. For example, I was once on a roof of a building I was building, somewhat out of sight, when I witnessed a county building inspector receive a payoff of a case of whickey. I got him fired.

On the other hand, I witnessed a construction foreman reduce an
inspector to tears on the job. She was brand new and she was quite correct to deny approval for something he'd done. I stepped in and he backed off.

There are inspectors and then there are inspectors.

I really never thought that building inspections, per se, had much intrinsic value until I witnessed the devastation of the 1989 earthquake that hit Santa Cruz, California. I had friends there who were almost destroyed. I spent two weeks there afterwards helping to shore up several homes and buildings. I witnessed entire houses thrown off their foundations. I went to one funeral while I was there. It was horrible.

All this kinda reminds me of that wonderful song that Tom Paxton wrote:

"THIS WORLD GOES ROUND AND ROUND,
WHAT GOES UP MUST COME DOWN,
JUST LIKE A SPINNING WHEEL,
IT ALL COMES BACK TO YOU.

YOU FIND WHATEVER YOU FEEL,
YOU LOSE WHATEVER YOU STEAL,
JUST LIKE A SPINNING WHEEL,
IT ALL COMES BACK TO YOU!"

If you pick a fight with a building inspector, you're 'gonna have a fight. And you'll likely lose, because untimatly they've got the power. If you start off an inspection with coffee, a doughnut, the blueprints and the previous inspection reports, AND YOU DON'T HAVE A CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER, you'll probably get a fair inspection. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 05:35 PM

Well, one thing I have learned is that the most important person to suck up to is the building inspectors... And I have done some serious suckin' up...

I'm in the process of building a new house and rehabin' an old hotel and so I spend alot of time in the building inspectors office but...

...you don't have to bribe them, but...

...you have to always be nice to them, don't ever argue and be sure to ask them questions...

I've evn gone do far as to volunteer to take the same ICC course that they have taken on "Exhisting Buildings" and always have my ICC book with me when visiting with them in their office...

Knowledge is part of the deal... A large part...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 05:21 PM

Many years ago, a little coffee house I knew of was 'upsetting' the local authorities. When they couldn't find any 'public nuisance' ordinances to close it, they simple sent in the building inspectors to nibble it to death.

One of the inspectors was heard to assert (off the record) "We can close ANY place, if we want to."    The owner tried for two months to fix things, then quit when it became obvious they were going to keep finding things till he gave up.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:24 PM

Building inspectors have been on the take more times than you can shake a stick at. The last guy we had here in the Town Of Ramapo, Brian Brophy, was caught with $30,000 cash and some marijuana in his town owned vehicle after he was pulled over on the NY Thruway for DUI.
He had the nerve to tell the judge in court that he had no idea where the money came from even though he was the only one that had ever driven that car. Needless to say the judge did not buy it and he is no longer the town building inspector.

                                                   SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:04 PM

Then there's that. I know of a building that was inspected in a town I will not name. Some idiot had cut through a firewall. The bldg inspector seemed not to notice. A firefighetr picked up on it after part of the structure burned.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:00 PM

...Well, is everything you do to code?...

Strange how they expect everything on the site to conform to code and also expect a little something under the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 03:50 PM

I was amazed when we had a loft conversion that the builders doing the conversion suggested temporarily changing some doors downstairs before the building inspector came and then putting the originals back afterwards. I said "no". The original doors remained and the inspection went through without any problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: jeffp
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 03:44 PM

The rabbit garden approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 03:41 PM

Amen Mick.

we used to deal with inspectors by leaving bait. Unfinished things that could be fixed quickly and easily, usually while the inspection was underway.

They will aways find something to be fixed and the more perfect you try to make things, the more assinine the needed corrections will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 03:34 PM

Well, is everything you do to code? (No offense.)

Subject: BS: Building Inspectors, A--HOLES OR WHAT.
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 03:21 PM

HI EVERYONE, Just saw a programme on the box, OK it is a soap, where somebody got a problem with one of these obnoxious ARSEHOLES. Anyone had any experiences with one of these people. I use the term "people" reservedly. Being a builder I have dealt with these people lots of times in different areas of the country and have always found them to be the same.