blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:24 PM

A small example of corporate welfare:
http://www.progress.org/corpw30.htm

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:42 PM

Now that the politicians have purchased, with our tax money, an entire huge insurance mega-company, I, as an owner of that ought to be able to purchase health insurance. No company out there will sell me any of that because of all of our pre-existing medical conditions.

I have Medicare, but Carol, because she has never been ABLE to work enough, cannot get Social Security Disability or ever be on Medicare. As a result, after spending everything on medical bills, I finally became poor enough to secure Illinois Public Aid. In order for Carol to get needed treatments, we MUST remain in poverty to keep on getting a Medicaid card each month.

Medicaid, every month, gives us what they call a SPEND DOWN AMOUNT of several hundreds of dollars---that is money we MUST SPEND in order to, once again, every month, be poor enough to get that card.   If I earn or secure more cash, the spend-down goes up by that amount. That's only fair, correct?!

In reality, if it means Carol is covered, I am glad to do it; it's like paying a big monthly insurance premium. Our life now is much as it has been during the years before I lost the ability to make my music. It was never about the money. It was, and is, about our folk music! I have always venerated Jack Kerouac and Woody and learned from them that beatniks were always glad to fill the cheapest, highest, seats at the concerts. Other than the thin air up there, and a bunch of nosebleeds, living with this broken down safety net, full as it is with gaping holes to fall through is something we are rather accustomed to. Like living gig to gig. ;-)

This was, up to 3 days ago, the richest country on earth---fully capable of providing health care. But, as John Reed, said, "It only took ten days to shake the world."

It seems our powerful ones in the USA have managed to do it in record time! --- Actually I would prefer to shake the world as E. Hemingway would have us do that.

May you live in interesting times -- and finagle a way to live through them!!!

Art

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM

Ahhhh, not to over simplifty but it isn't as much the economic system but the extent to which it is "fair"... Both capitalism and socialism can work if they are fair...

Fair requires two things: 1. Real democracy and 2. Intellegent people participating in that democracy...

The US has neither...

It's democracy is a sham... You have states with virtually no population with 2 senators verses states like California which has 78 times as many people as Utah and it has only 2 Senators... This is a formula for disaster...

Intellegent people are also in short supply... Too many people are so poorly educated that they will vote the for a candidate who their buddy says is the right choice... Tom Jefferson would be sick to know that so many ignorant people vote... This is the main problem with our survivability...

If you fix these two problems than the corruption that makes US fail will disappear... St6upid candidates won't get elected... People will empowered... Things will work correctly...

Face it, we don't have a capitalist system... We have a very corrupted system and that is why it doesn't work...

And for the record, the so-called capitalists, which they aren't, are out to tell every one who will listen that they, the upper 5% of wage earners pay 60% of the taxes... Well, that sounds fine until you see that these same 5% control 80% of the wealth... That means that the bottom 95% are carrying an unfair share of the tax burden but that is the way it is in a corrupt socialistic or capitalistist system...

B~

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:07 PM

i think there is confusion of the classic marxist understanding of socialism - and what
a more recent or western understanding of socialism -

ie.the Marxist definition was - transitional to communism- once a true communist society is achieved there will be a withering away of the state etc..

most people really dont use the term in that sense anymore- they use it in the sense of a mixed economy where the state provides various social services such as medical, employment insurance etc..

as I said before the US has plenty of examples where the state is involved in providing services...

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:13 PM

"Teribus plainly believes that he can survive and prosper because he has the biggest gun." - Richard Bridge

Basis for that rather idiotic statement please Richard Bridge, or did you just feel the need to hear your gums flapping??

The "socialists" on this thread appear to object and complain bitterly with regard to Government intervention to stave off a crisis, which appears to have been precipitated by lie and rumour. I find that rather difficult to understand as in any political system that subscribes to a "capitalist" economy such interventions by Government are extremely rare, whereas in their "ideal" socialist politico-economic system such intervention would by necessity be a permanent feature.

Sandy Mc Lean states that he has always been confused by a simplified equation in the USA:
         
Capitalism = Democracy
Socialism = Dictatorship

Maybe that is because people in general mistakenly think on "capitalism" as a political system - it isn't, it is purely a system of economics. I disagree with Big Mick, "Socialism" is both a political ideology and an economic doctrine.

Now let's see:

Capitalism - relies on free-enterprise, competition and reward - efficiency and market driven - that flourishes best in free-thinking societies - for those to be truly free-thinking societies certain freedom's must exist - innovation must be encouraged which requires constant challenging of the status quo - that requires tolerance, pragmatism and flexibility - lack of central control and guidance rather than regulation - All of which has the ability to exist under a democratic form of government, the social conscience of the society being set as agreed by the people who make up that society.

Socialism - social conscience of the society set by government - means to support the social programmes required have to be imposed by government - means of production in public ownership - innovation discouraged as it challenges the status quo and imposes unnecessary costs - competition is non-existent as it is not rewarded - requires strict central control of all aspects of production ruled by regulation - lacks flexibility and is thus unable to repond rapidly to change - The political system required can easily be corrupted into totalitarian dictatorship.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:39 PM

The problem as I see it, T, as that as long a there are people who think they are above the law then capitalism = corruption...

That's where democracy should step in and keep capitalism pure and fair... In that case, all should be fine...

But when you don't have an informed electorate and you don't have a truely democratic system then capitalism tends to get way off course, as in the case of the US today...

This wouldn't have happened if we had democracy, which we don't, and if we had an informed electorate, which we don't...

Capitalism or socialism cannot thrive under such a misorgainized system...

B~

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:35 AM

I put this on another thread (Crash of U.S. Economy):

http://www.greeneconomics.org.uk/

We should give this a try (everything else seems to have failed us)!

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:13 AM

Bobert.."Both capitalism and socialism can work if they are fair..."

Capitalism can never be "fair"
Capitalism involves selling your life and the lives of your children for the means to exist week to week.

It also involves feeding a taxation system, which is used by the Capitalists as a tool to keep the system running, not to safeguard the welfare of taxpayers.

This is patently obvious in America, where the Capitalist governments of both parties refuse to supply a "fair" National Health Ststem, while being quite prepared to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into the US financial system in an attempt to save it from itself....Ake

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:12 AM

Guest Jim Martin - Absolutely at £79 per "Conference" the organisers must be doing quite well, but then of course all the faithful have to haul their butts to Oxford to attend these bashes and get the word - hardly all that "green" in the final analysis.

Bobert - 19 Sep 08 - 08:39 PM - Is classically protraying Capitalism as a political ideology - IT IS NOT, nor has it ever been so, it is an economic ideology that can quite successfully co-exist with whatever political system choses to adopt it. The ills of which you speak would not disappear with "capitalism" they are a matter of law which is governed by the political system and it's judicial arm, which everybody gets the opportunity to vote on - True? As to a well informed electorate, tell us all Bobert, supposedly as one of those who makes up the electorate of the United States of America
whose responsibility is it to see that you are well informed?? I think you will find Bobert that that particular responsibility is yours and yours alone.

akenaton - 20 Sep 08 - 03:13 AM

"Bobert.."Both capitalism and socialism can work if they are fair..."

Capitalism can never be "fair"
Capitalism involves selling your life and the lives of your children for the means to exist week to week.

It also involves feeding a taxation system, which is used by the Capitalists as a tool to keep the system running, not to safeguard the welfare of taxpayers."

Well sorry Akenaton, but I would state with a certain degree of qualification that what Bobert has said there is perfectly true. I would also say that what CarolC has said previously regarding there having to be a mix, some sort of compromise to produce the optimum achievable result is also true. Nearest actual examples that I can think of off hand are Finland; Sweden; Denmark; Norway; Iceland . note all "small" countries in terms of populations; all "northern" countries with a historical tradition whereby their citizens due to climate and conditions had to work together so that all could survive; all follow "capitalist" economies; they maintain a democratic system which incorporates proportional representation which successfully curbs the excesses of left or right; all are fiscally responsible.

Your claim, tenet, bleat, call it what you will that:

Capitalism can never be "fair"

Really?? So it's rather like life then is it?? Because Akenaton, and I hate to disillusion you at your time of life but "life" is not, nor will it ever be "fair".

"Capitalism involves selling your life and the lives of your children for the means to exist week to week." - Akenaton

Arrant nonsense. Now were that indeed the case Akenaton, tell us all how long "capitalism" has been the driving economic ideology of the USA and of the British Isles? Having answered that question in your own mind go back to the 1820's when what is known as "modern" photography began with the first permanent photographs. Can you explain to us Akenaton how a system which you says demands the enslavement of the working class and their children in a downward spiral of poverty and deprivation has produced such improvements in life expectancy; general health; education; employment opportunity as can be witnessed by looking at any representative photograph from the 1820's and comparing it to one taken today?? In the 1820's was Longleat open to the public? Oh yes, social conscience, trade unions and Labour Governments played their part on the political side of things, but it was the economics of "capitalism" that provide the wealth and funding for it. All systems with a "socialist" agenda that have rejected "capitalism" and opted for state dictat and control have stagnated and failed - Fact.

Taxation systems you vote for Akenaton - this you will discover if your dearly held hope of Scottish Independence ever comes to anything, only then it will be your "socialist-until-failed" SNP Government that will be taxing you, it will not be "capitalism" taxing you. It is the government for which you vote that decides how and on what the tax revenues of the country are spent, not "capitalists".

Your example of Government not safeguarding the welfare of taxpayers:

".....America, where the Capitalist governments of both parties refuse to supply a "fair" National Health System"

Ever since America became independent Akenaton, any political party or any politician in America, at any level of politics in the land, could have stood on the "Hustings" and proposed what you describe as a "fair" National Health System" to his electorate. They would all go wild with joy, until he then tells them exactly how much it will cost to set up and how much it will cost to run, and then tells them that they will have to pay for this through taxation year in year out - That is the point at which that particular candidate becomes unelectable. The USA does not have a "fair" National Health System because the American people in general are not prepared to pay for it, pure and simple, it's got nothing to do with the economic system in place that generates income.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:16 AM

The old saw:

Capitalism is the exploitation of people by people. Communism is the other way around..

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:41 AM

I think we need to go back and redefine "capitalism" in terms of reality and not ideology or mythology... The reality is that, yes, capitalism is an economic system that only works when properly governed...

Reaganites lost sight of that and removed the governing aspect with the misconcepyion that the markets would police themselves... That has shown to be a flawed way for capitalism to work for the betterment of the population...

Yeah, I guess as a purely academic exercise one can try to seperate capitalism from governemtn but that won't solve any of the apparent problems that capitalism faces... Free markets sound all peachy but they really have never actually existed... Free-er markets, perhaps a better way of looking at the situation but free??? Nah... There will always be someone using governemnt to create an unfair advantage...

BTW, I consider myself to be a capitalist in some ways and a socialist in others and I don't see capitalism as evil... Corruption is evil and poorly governed capitalism is evil...

B~

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:53 AM

'Terribus' - at least somebody is trying to offer an alternative to the present corrupt world!

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:22 AM

"The reality is that, yes, capitalism is an economic system that only works when properly governed..." - Bobert

That is it in a nutshell and the definition of the proper governance is that regulation is flexible enough to appreciate what steps have to be taken when and where required.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

100,000 jobs have been lost this week by people who believed in their wall street job as fervently as people who believe in Jesus.

Half of them will find some sort of job an average of 7 months from now. They will carry with them a vengence that they will not show the outside world but will burn inside them like boiling betrayal.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM

Please see GLOBAL REGULATIONISM - down on "The Weekly Walkabout" BS thread.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

Regulation should not be flexible enough to permit corporate cronyism and union busting.

Regulation worked under FDR.

Evidence: Are you better off today than you were say ten or twenty years ago?

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM

I submit it is the primary role of government to protect the interests of the people.

Unfortunately, there is a misguided belief (by some), that in a capatilist system business will take care of the interests of the people first, not the interests of the company. Taken further (by some) government has no role in ensuring that business operates in a manner that protects the public interest.

There is also a belief that business will take care of the financial interests of the people of the nation in which they operate (i.e. trickle down economics). However, Globalization and associated tax structures has changed how companies operate and minimized national loyalities and benefits.

IMO, there are definately areas where business should operate with as little government control as possible. However, there is a clear role for government. there are also cases where government intervention is required where the public interest is not being served. In some more extreme cases, (ie government sponsored health care in some nations), I suspect it would be called socialism.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

That Green Economics Institute is a great idea. The fee for the workshops is extremely reasonable and they hold events in a lot of different places. By itself it won't change the world, but along side of all of the other organizations and schools that are doing similar things, it will make a huge difference.

My son has decided to go to graduate school to get an MBA with a focus on sustainable economics (some schools do actually offer this program). It costs money, like all other graduate school programs, but it definitely serves a very good purpose and is sorely needed in the world today.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

I've been listening to quite a bit of news on the radio (various stations) within the past week, interviews with different figures in politics and economics, mostly economists, and I don't know how many times I've heard the majority of them voice the same opinion:   the only way the country is going to get out of this mess, and stay out, is to reinstate the controls that FDR established in the New Deal—and keep them in place. The current crisis started when Reagan began dismantling these controls.

It's very popular to demonize Roosevelt these days, particularly by conservatives and those who don't know much about the history of the "Great Depression," what led up to it, and how it was dealt with, but he knew what he was doing. Capitalism without the kind of controls that the New Deal instituted is like a traffic intersection with no lane lines, no traffic lights or signs, and four blind corners.

A difference between the Great Depression and now:   in the GP, CEOs of companies their mismanagement ruined committed suicide by jumping out of their office windows. Now, they're given $150 million dollar bonus by way of severance pay.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM

I have it on very good authority that earlier this week before the new infusion of billions and billions we were very close to a complete lock-down of the world's economic systems.

I have no way to understand all of this input, even from people whose opinions I respect, except to say that he verified that there is nothing backing up the money being allocated but the wet ink we are printing it out with. How the hell can brilliant people be espousing this alchemy? This does seem, once again, like wishful thinking to me!! I can't believe in it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:57 PM

The idea is that it's "trust" in our economy that is backing our currency. Which is why our economy had to be shored up in order to continue to keep itself going in the global sense. It's quite a racket, in my opinion. But the world is run by organized crime, so it's hardly suprising, I supposed.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:26 PM

Well yes let's just blame CAPITALISm & jettison it all and ignore completely that it was that system that got us to where we are. Having jettisoned it please tell me what replaces it?? Come on you who are so strident in insisting that it be done away with you must have some sort of alternative to replace it - Or haven't you thought that through yet??

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:27 PM

THEY ARE COMING TO DUMP ON YOU

cartoon the trillion dollar truck

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:04 AM

I think there's going to be something new that replaces capitalism, myself. I think it's going to be an outgrowth of both capitalism and socialism, and it's going to have as its central set of considerations, integrity, sustainability, and social justice. I don't know how long it's going to take for this to evolve out of what we have now, but I can see the beginnings of it emerging already.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: DougR
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:08 AM

Art: If socialism is so great, why has it eventually failed wherever it has been tried? Why do so many people from socialistic based countries try so hard to get into the U.S.? Capitalism is not dead, it has just been used by many unscrupulous corporate and government leaders who have abused the system.

DougR

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:46 AM

Because the form of government masquerading under the name of socialism is a totalitarian one, usually based around a worship of the leader. Socialism has been used in various Scandinavian coutnries, as well as Israel, with success.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 06:19 AM

"Socilaism has been used in various Scandinavian countries, as well as Israel, with success." - Volgadon

And the economic ideology that generates the wealth to pay for it is?

I know you don't like anwering my questions Volgadon so I'll provide the answer myself - Capitalist.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 06:47 AM

I never said I was against capitalism, I'm against a capitalistic society, by which I mean one where that ideology dominates.
As I've seen the shift in Israel from socialism to a more capitalistic society, I've also seen people become colder and less caring.
My ideal, support those who need support, and place things like culture, recreation, education and health within people's reach.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Stu
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:18 AM

"Capitalism is not dead, it has just been used by many unscrupulous corporate and government leaders who have abused the system. "

There's been no abuse, only the capitalist system working as it should. Short sellers and hedge fund operators are simply doing what capitalists do, and if you're for unregulated capitalism then this is it working perfectly; it encourages greed and short-termism and always has done.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:57 AM

Lao Tsu:

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Socialism

Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Capitalism

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:52 AM

Ah, but socialism teaches you to share with those who either can't fish, or had a lousy haul that day.....

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 10:31 AM

"Socialism always fails and disappears" Geezuuus Doug,

Did France and England disappear?

I better google Earth right now.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: olddude
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

Did France and England disappear?

          yes they did disappear

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

"Capitalism - relies on free-enterprise, competition and reward - efficiency and market driven - that flourishes best in free-thinking societies - for those to be truly free-thinking societies certain freedom's must exist - innovation must be encouraged which requires constant challenging of the status quo - that requires tolerance, pragmatism and flexibility - lack of central control and guidance rather than regulation - All of which has the ability to exist under a democratic form of government, the social conscience of the society being set as agreed by the people who make up that society."

Teribus

Perhaps, Mr T, if that's your take on Capitalism, then real Capitalism hasn't been tried ...

The system that we've got in the US/UK may depend on 'free-enterprise' and competition - but only the 'fat cats' seem to get the rewards. And it's not very efficient to allow the banking system to wreak such havoc that the whole f***king system collapses, is it?

In the capitalist enterprise that I worked in, until recently, innovation was certainly 'encouraged' (I think that senior management believed that they could have innovation by 'fiat'!) - just as long as it DIDN'T challenge the status quo. The whole 'enterprise' was run by the Marketing Dept. - who were among some of the most contemptible people I've ever met - shallow, vain, stupid,ignorant and insanely competitive and ambitious, yet, when it came to the crunch, terrified of risk. They wouldn't have recognised an innovative product if it had bitten them on the arse! All they really wanted to do was to slavishly copy the competition.

And when did you last challenge the status quo, Teribus? I thought that your whole aim in life was to defend it!

Recent events suggest that your darling 'free market' Capitalism is just as much of a shaky theoretical concept as Socialism. Still, look on the bright side, if we're patient, and wait for just a little longer, some of that wealth just might 'trickle down' - just like Thatcher said it would ... just a little longer ...

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

Socialism and Capitalism were not concepts during the time of Lao Tsu. So trying to attribute that meaning to his words is dishonest.

Capitalism turns everyone into consumers (we have to buy buy buy!!! to keep the market growing because you can't keep capitalist systems going without growth), and when we become consumers, we don't do anything for ourselves, and we either forget how or we never bother to learn.

Socialism, on the other hand, is completely neutral in its effect on whether or not people will learn to do for themselves.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

Lao Tsu:

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Socialism

Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Capitalism

Give a corporation access to TNT and they blow up the lake, making a short term killing, after which nobody gets any fish. Unregulated Capitalism.

Sawzaw's economic religion, like Bush's seems to ignore the most powerful force in economic behavior, enlightened self interest. Where the individual's (or corporation's) interest conflicts with society's, we need regulation. If the current crisis hasn't told you this then you have slept through it.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM

Excuse me please, I meant to say, rational self interest, not enlightened. Thanks to the lovely wife for pointing out my error.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:31 PM

Regardless of political theories, it's clearly the responsibility of a government to make sure that any venture cannot become so large that its failure would jeapordize that government.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:21 PM

American Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when the cow drops dead.
http://www.funny.co.uk/stuff/art_71-2341-Capitalism-with-Cows-Part-2.html

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:34 PM

There you go again.

I remember your support of rampant militarism on other threads.

I see your belief that you can profit and others starve on this one.



From each according to their means. To each according to their needs.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 10:16 PM

American capitalism...

You have two cows. You genetically engineer them to produce five times the amount of milk as the other cows, and then make thousands of clones of them. You then genetically engineer some of the clones to be bulls, and release them in the pastures of all of the other dairy farmers in the area. After they mate with the other farmers' cows, you then sue the other farmers for stealing intellectual property.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:22 AM

'Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime' - but we're killing all the fish, so, this takes us back to sustainable living! Can anyone come up with anything better than the green economics concept? - I don't think so!

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:13 AM

Well, I agree with Carol in her opinion that what we are going to end up with is a "hybrid" mix of regulated capitalism, much like we had before Reagan, and socialism... There are sectors of the economy that lenbd themselves to one or the other or a mix of the two...

But let's face it... With this bailout socialism has certainly stepped in where capitalism has failed...

Actually, as I have proposed, I would love to see the federal governemnt take over the entire mortgage industry (rather than just the bad loans), make safe loans and then apply the interets from them toward shoring up Social Security... This is doable...

B~

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM

Debt has been socialized while profit has been privatized.

In short: Corporations profit from the bailout.
The public gets screwed.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:42 PM

sorry - I couldnt get the link to work..
Gwynne Dyer: Comrade George W. Bush and the banks
By Gwynne Dyer
After Comrade George W. Bush nationalized the two giants of the US mortgage market, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, earlier this month, Anatole Kaletsky wrote in The Times of London that "the most capitalist administration ever, in the world's most capitalist country, had decided to wipe out the private owners of its biggest and most important financial companies and replace them with state-appointed bureaucrat".

Wikipedia defines "nationalization" as "the act of taking an industry or assets into the public ownership of a national government. It is a central theme of certain brands of 'state socialist' policy that the means of production, distribution and exchange, should be owned by the state....Nationalization may occur with or without compensation to the former owners. If it takes place without compensation it is a case of expropriation."

Well, this was expropriation. When the U.S. investment bank Bear Stearns went belly-up in March, the shareholders used their political influence to get the price of the buyout raised from the originally agreed $2 per share to $10 per share. By April, however, it was known that the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank was talking to the Scandinavian authorities, who had survived a rather similar crisis in 1991-93 by nationalizing their banks without compensation for shareholders.

And that is essentially what happened with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, whose combined liabilities of $5.5 trillion were equivalent to about two-thirds of the existing U.S. national debt. Those liabilities of those two institutions, which hold around half of all US mortgages, have now been added to the federal government's debt, bringing it to about $14.8 trillion––approximately three times what it was when Comrade Bush first took office. But the shareholders got nothing.

In its desperate attempt to keep Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae afloat over the previous six months, the U.S. Treasury had encouraged investors to pump an extra $20 billion into them. As the situation worsened and the likelihood of a federal nationalization without compensation loomed, Yu Yongding, former advisor to China's central bank, warned: "If the U.S. government allows Fannie and Freddie to fail and international investors are not compensated adequately...it is the end of the current international financial system."

That is what actually came to pass this month, although the consequences will take years to play out fully. Then came last week's effective nationalization of American International Group (AIG), which made the U.S. government the world's largest insurance company.

"The move represents the largest lurch toward socialism that this country has ever seen, and signals the end of the vibrancy of America's once vaunted free market economy," said Peter Schiff, president of Euro Pacific Capital.

The current proposal by the U.S. Treasury to spend $600 billion of taxpayers' money buying up the worst of the subprime mortgages only emphasises how far we have travelled from the triumphalism of the free-marketeers in just a few months. Just as China has developed a "socialist economy with Chinese characteristics," so the U.S. is getting a socialist economy with American characteristics. (Indeed, the two countries even share some of the same characteristics, like the lack of a comprehensive national health service.)

The most extraordinary part of this upheaval is that there has been virtually no public outcry in the United States itself, the bastion of free-market capitalism, about these nationalizations. The word "nationalization" is never used, and the irony of such a socialist measure being implemented by this most doctrinaire of Republican administrations is scarcely commented on.

Republican presidential candidate John McCain let a bit of the old free-market ideology show through when he told reporters that "the Federal Reserve should get back to its core business of responsibly managing our money supply and inflation", but he is not really fighting nationalizations and government subsidies. Indeed, he agrees with Democratic candidate Barack Obama that the subsidised loans to General Motors and Ford now pending approval in the U.S. Congress should be raised from the proposed $25 billion to $50 billion.

The panicky flight from free-market orthodoxy in the United States is bound to fuel a revival of government intervention and welfare-state policies in the rest of the world. In the United States itself, however, they are likely to hang the wrong culprit in the end.

It was the ideologically driven deregulation of banks and markets by the Bush administration, encouraging wild speculation and the proliferation of murky financial instruments, that made this crisis possible. When one set of Bush-appointed regulators brought garden shears to a press conference to show their dedication to cutting the "red tape" that allegedly kept banks from realising the full potential of unregulated financial markets, a rival Bush appointee, James Gilleran, head of the Office of Thrift Supervision, brought a chainsaw to his photo-op.

So will the Republicans be punished for their willful fiscal irresponsibility? Not if Barack Obama wins the presidency, which seems the likely outcome of the November election. American voters won't remember who actually caused the financial crisis that impoverished them. They will end up blaming the party in power, the one that actually has to try to lessen the misery and clear up the mess. The Democrats, in other words.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 08:44 PM

Capitalism is bad for humanity?? Sorry, I can't buy that argument. Unless, of course, you think there's a significant chance of it increasing in value over the next few days so that I can sell it high.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:13 PM

Definition of "fascism": A political system that glorifies the nation, minimizes individual rights, and operates through an autocratic central government that tightly controls all economics, political, and social behavior. ...
www.chuckallan.com/fccj/amh2020/Vocabulary.html


Definition of "capitalism":

Capitalism is an economic theory which stresses that control of the means of producing economic goods in a society should reside in the hands of those who invest the capital for production. It is a system based on the production of goods and services for exchange rather than use. ...
www2.truman.edu/~marc/resources/terms.html


I don't think we are suffering from capitalism.



A

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:23 AM

Right Amos!!!(even a broken clock is right, twice a day)..
We can blame ourselves for tolerating and rewarding corruption....and by being corrupt, ourselves... by ignorance(the act of ignoring), thereby, being stupid....and letting our minds being 'entertained' by distractions, from what really matters. Yes, the chickens have come home to roost...and we're acting 'all so indignant'. tsk tsk!

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 01:40 AM

Stringsinger, your post of 22 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM is a gross misrepresentation, particularly where it involves insurance companies and mortgage lenders. You state that:

"Debt has been socialized while profit has been privatized.

In short: Corporations profit from the bailout.
The public gets screwed."

So your solution would be to let them go to the wall is it? Tell us what would happen then Frank? After all the debt does not go away.

For all those people paying insurance premiums, or relying on insurance pay outs, they would then have to find another insurance company and pay what outstanding claims they have against their existing policies.

With the mortgage lenders going under, all debts would be called in, thereby throwing the vast majority of their customers out of their homes.

The knock-on effects of the route you would appear to advocate would be catastrophic for a great many people Frank, but then as always that's the "socialists" way of looking at things, make sure the ideology is right and never ever look further than your nose.

Oh and by the bye Frank the money given by Government is a loan it does have to be paid back, I dare say all that Supposedly "privatised" profit will be used for that.

Subject: RE: blame CAPITALISM & jetison it!!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 11:12 AM

My turn...100!