BS: Are we becoming too politically correct

Subject: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 08:33 AM

I never had any particular hang up with any religion or culture either worldwide or even living next door to me.

It seems we as a nation (United Kingdom) are now living in a politicly correct society and you can't voice an opinion without being called a racist.

Our National Health Service came under fire recently for not understanding the needs of some cultures. Our police service took some flack the other week from the Black Police Officers Association. And any political party that mentions placing limits on emigration is called racist.

If a minister of the church refuses to conduct a marriage service for lesbians or homosexuals, sections within our society are calling for this head to be placed on the chopping block.

Is it all getting out of hand or am I just becoming an old fart ?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:27 AM

I've never heard anyone proposing limitations to emigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:32 AM

Sorry McGrath, that fuck was was all mine, enjoy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:41 AM

Probably. But it is, in my opinion, a direct result of years of insensitivity to people of different races, colours and creeds that has caused the backlash. I find it better to err on the side of caution that revert to the days where it was acceptable to use offensive terms.

It will eventualy find the happy medium that we desire. Just give it time.

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:54 AM

I don't know that services that are doing their best should 'come under fire', but if no-one comments when things are not right they will not improve.
I used to run a small village playgroup and I used to think that 'equal opportunities' didn't apply to me because -
a. we didn't have any ethnic minorities
b. I treated everyone the same.
Then the boy who I hadn't realised was Jewish was kept at home the week before Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:59 AM

So, Victor from Mapperton, here we are in a folk music site. Do you have any views on music at all? I don't seem to recall you contribute much to folk music discussions. Are you perhaps just here to stir up something?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:03 AM

"It seems we as a nation (United Kingdom) are now living in a politicly correct society and you can't voice an opinion without being called a racist."

            It's been that way in the US for a long time. You can't even take a stand against illegal immigration here, for the purposes of saving the environment, without being calles a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:08 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Peace
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:12 AM

We (name the country) are raising nations of sissies.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:24 AM

And providing lots of business for crooked lawyers and grasping politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:27 AM

It seems that any organisation such as "Black Police Officers Association" or similar is inherently racist by definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Peace
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:30 AM

They would never have formed the association had there been no need. And if the concerns of minorities are not being addressed by the larger association, there will of course be splinter groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:43 AM

Immigration has been a reality of a life in the so-called British Isles since the ice-age, enriching the ever changing cultural landscapes as history takes its course. Thus will ethnic tensions rise & fall accordingly, resulting in whatever riots & civil wars & random stabbings that are sensationalised by newspapers & history books alike. However, for the most (and better) part people get on with it in good grace, as they've always done, without the prescriptive & patronising PC dogmas descending from on high telling them what to think & how the react according to whatever holy rule book might be fashionable at the time.

We are human beings - this is what we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 11:49 AM

Gosh, LH, when will it make me rich?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:20 PM

Good answer Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Peace
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:51 PM

"Are we becoming too politically correct"

I don't think I am, but possibly . . . .

I tend to like, dislike or ignore people based on the way they are. I don't really care about their religion, colour, beliefs, politics, etc. When people make a point of telling me about their beliefs I will listen. When they tell me about my beliefs I will tell them to get lost--or something a bit more straight forward.

Some accommodations the general society makes on behalf of others I agree with. A good person will be so regardless of other 'things' about him or her.

Some folks many years back thought it was 'too PC' to have wheelchair access to public buildings, etc. I thought it was about time.

My remark about 'raising a nation of sissies' is more a reference to the mollycoddling society does for everyone who's got a complaint about damned near everything.

Years ago one of my kids came home from school. She'd been being pushed (bullied) by two other students. Phoned the teacher, principal and nothing changed. Phoned the parents and was told, "Kids will be kids." Then I toook my child (six or seven at the time) to three years of Wing Chun. Taught her to do round kicks, rapid punches to the body and use of her elbows in close contact fighting. She did a controlled demonstration for the two kids who were doing the bullying. They left her alone after that.

Truthfully, sometimes you just have to deal with it yourself. I have ceased to believe in a 'fair' or 'just' society. So it's fundamental with me. Don't fu#k with me and I won't fu#k with you. Start with me and it won't be over until I say so. I don't believe in that 'cry uncle' shit.

Try the 'right' way first. If that doesn't work, take care of it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 01:13 PM

I've never heard anyone proposing limitations to emigration.

The late, unlamented, German Democratic Republic.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 01:26 PM

When will it make you rich, Richard? ;-) Well, I don't know. Which category are you placing yourself in, crooked lawyer or grasping politician? How much effort have you expended on the matter thus far? It usually requires establishing good contacts, knowing the right people, and having absolutely no scruples. Since I'm not aware if you have all those particular ducks lined up, shall we say, and whether or not you possess the necessary lack of scruples combined with the appropiate killer instincts, I really don't know what to predict in your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 01:59 PM

There may well have been incomers to Britain,over the centuries,who have entered the gene-pool, and contributed to our cultural and ethnic diversity, but NEVER in such enormous un-checked and un-regulated numbers.What is happening now is APPALLING !!---At least, we were allowed to FIGHT the Germans ( and the other invaders) in the past, but now our own government is throwing wide our doors and abandoning our frontiers to every drug-dealer,murderer,gun-runner,money -launderer,people-trafficker and racketeer from every country on Earth, and then giving them OUR tax-payers' money ; houses;cars;welfare;free medical treatment ----you name it ! Just in the name of political correctness and (spare me ! ) " Human Rights ".
And what of OUR "Human Rights " , you ask ?? Do you know, I do believe that we don"t, in the eyes of the British Labour Party, actually have any !!!!! And you wonder why so many of us are racists !!! God help us .

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: gnu
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 02:13 PM

I was gonna try to make a joke, but.... it just don't seem funny no more.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 02:20 PM

I think that last post might suggest that the answer is "No"...

But I don't trust the term "politically correct". Most of times I've actually hear it used has been from people who seem to think that acting and talking in a way that insults other people because they differ in some way from ourselves doesn't matter.

I prefer to talk about good manners and courtesy and being sensitive to others.

Here's a song I wrote about it, and posted on the Mudcat back in 2000:

Poison in Jest

Now there's a funny way of talking called "Politically Correct" -
Silly fools who think that words have some kind of effect.
Now that's surely not a notion that's entitled to respect -
So I'd like to poke a little fun at this strange dialect.
For when I meet some oddity I like to speak direct.
No, I never mess around with being "Politically Correct".
So I speak to them direct, that's what they must expect -
No I never mess around with being "Politically Correct."

So I say "Good Morning, Mr Nigger!",
or "How goes it, you old Yid?"
The answers that I get, I find surprising.
And I like seeing tins marked "Cripples",
or "For Little Spastic Kids" - I think euphemisims are so patronising!
So I speak to them direct, that's what they must expect
No I never mess around with being "Politically Correct."

So, perhaps you are a Poofter, or a Gippo with a van,
or perhaps you are a Mongol or a Moron -
or perhaps you come from Essex, Essex Girl or Essex Man,
and perhaps your name is Tracy, Wayne or Sharon
Well, I'll speak to you direct, that's what you must expect -
No I never mess around with being "Politically Correct."

If I'll call you what I choose, what's that got to do with you?
It's not my problem if the words appall you.
It's how I always speak when I'm talking to a freak,
and it doesn't really matter what I call you.
Yes, I'll speak to you direct, that's what you must expect -
No I never mess around with being "Politically Correct."

And if anybody says that I offends,
why then I just assume an
injured look - my poor little friends,
you must have lost your sense of humour.
And a sense of fun, when all is done,
it never should desert you.
And sticks and stones can break your bones -
but words can really hurt you.

So, I'll speak to you direct, that's what you must expect -
For I never mess around with being "Politically Correct."

Now some might call it courtesy,
or politeness or respect -
But I prefer to call it "being Politically Correct".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 02:21 PM

that last post referred to the one before last.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 02:25 PM

Just don't get Chongo started on this, okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 03:35 PM

The preferred term, coined by the late, much lamented Rick Fielding, is ethically conscious which comes down to common courtesy and manners.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 03:40 PM

What really gets my goat (and you don't want to get a Greek's goat, he gets lonely) is that all this IMHO is driven not by any consideration towards other races or religions or rights of minorities of any sort, but rather by risk aversion (whether to avoid litigation or losing votes etc). In this, Peace is 100% right, I believe; we (insert nation) are raising a bunch of risk averse ninnies. And what is worse, I feel PC rules miss the point.

Because you cannot legislate for feelings, for respect or consideration towards others, only for behaviours. Even if you manage to turn good behaviours into habits through long enforcement, you are not likely to change the underlying thoughts, and are perhaps even risking a backlash.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 03:42 PM

Forgive me Bubblyrat, but how do you distinguish every "drug-dealer, murderer, gun-runner, money-launderer, people-trafficker and racketeer" from other foreigners, or indeed the home-grown undesirables?

Immigration control we need, probably, but we need a rational policy.

I'm inclined however to think that those here without an absolute right of residence might merit deportation after serious offences, and the apparently wealthy without visible means of support might deserve a bit of investigation....

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 03:56 PM

Perhaps I ought to give a further explanation, lest my previous post be misunderstood as being in support of racism and all other -isms:

I see it as no different from how we teach our children to be. Say, not to steal. Now, we could say "don't steal, because if you get caught you will be punished". This is the politically correct way, in my view, based on legislation of behaviours.

But I preferred to teach by saying "don't steal, because it is not right; not fair on others; and not fair on yourself either, to know that you have benefitted from harming someone else".

Raise the ethical standards of a society, and the right behaviours will follow. Change the behaviours alone withoput paying attention to the feelings behind them and all you are doing is creating a powderkeg.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 04:17 PM

"Change the behaviours alone withoput paying attention to the feelings behind them and all you are doing is creating a powderkeg."

Correct. You do not create brotherhood by intimidating and threatening people. You do not create brotherhood by establishing a climate of fear and accusation. You create brotherhood by engendering mutual love and respect in people, and uniting them in common (and positive) purposes.

The theme of "race" is constantly being used nowadays to intimidate and divide people...to make some feel like martyrs or victims and to make others (who have often done nothing wrong themselves) feel unearned guilt on account of past history which they were not the perpetrators of.

That's inappropriate. There's only one race of homo sapiens. It's called the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 06:39 PM

Changing the language and changing the attitudes have to go hand in hand. If the attitude is one of contempt or hate than that will colour whatever term used.

But as a mark of a change in attitudes a change in language is often helpful. It has been important for the label "Mongol" to been replaced in common and professional use by "Downs", and this has in practice been accompanied by a positive change in the way people behave towards people with that label.

In the same way it is important that the word "Nigger" has been driven out of common use. It doesn't mean that racism has been destroyed, but it one of the things that has helped to dethrone it.

I agree with George in feeling scornful towards the damage limitation merchants. But then anyone whose primary reason for changing offensive language etc is to avoid lawsuits is, I suspect, a covert racist, disablist or whatever. In fact I tend to suspect that applies to anyone who feels comfortable using the expression "politically correct" - whether they are attacking it or defending it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 08:42 PM

From one of my email signature files;
"'Political Correctness' is invoked as a term of abuse for those who have sought to bring marginalised people into the framework of a unified nation. I am happy to be seen as politically correct if that means being sensitive to the problems of the disadvantaged and working to overcome them." The late Sir Ronald Wilson (former High Court judge and President of the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission) quoted in Sydney Morning Herald 2 August 1997.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:10 PM

Subject: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Victor in Mapperton - PM
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 08:33 AM

I never had any particular hang up with any religion or culture either worldwide or even living next door to me.

It seems we as a nation (United Kingdom) are now living in a politicly correct society and you can't voice an opinion without being called a racist.

Our National Health Service came under fire recently for not understanding the needs of some cultures. Our police service took some flack the other week from the Black Police Officers Association. And any political party that mentions placing limits on emigration is called racist.

If a minister of the church refuses to conduct a marriage service for lesbians or homosexuals, sections within our society are calling for this head to be placed on the chopping block.

Is it all getting out of hand or am I just becoming an old fart ?

*********************************************************************


No, you fuckin' Limey pissant, you're dead nuts on and "dead nuts" are something you jerkwad, honkyass, Brits ought to know something about besides bland food and warm beer. You jackleg Tea-Bags ought to be shot on sight. If it wasn't for us your pale white asses would be nothin' but kraut eaters with funny accents.


There ya' go......Do you feel better? Hope so! No thanks needed!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:38 PM

Rowan, you might like to read some of this old thread. I like the quote you posted. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: number 6
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:52 PM

""ethically correct" .... good one from Rick.

Thanks for posting that Kat, and thanks for that old thread link ... there were some good posts in it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:00 PM

The two most Mis Used labels in UK today are 'Politically Correct' and 'Health and Safety' !

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 10:32 PM

A good link, Kat. Coincidentally, the post it took me to was followed by one from "PeterT", who (like me is a Mac user and thus a twitcher whenever the term 'Personal Computer' is used in a noninclusive way) posted on the experience of the Ontario Museum. In Oz, we had a not-dissimilar expereince when the National Museum (the one in Canberra) was opened with a fair amount of material about Aboriginal history. Our Prime Minister (for whom the only acceptable history is a "narrative" and who has described anything other than anglocentric history as "the black armband view of history") railed against the Museum so vehemently that the Director lost her job.

One of the most vehement deniers of the notion that Aborigines in Oz were massacred is Keith Windshuttle and he got stuck into the Museum display too; the Prime Minister is so taken with his views that he appointed Windshuttle to the Board of the ABC, our national broadcaster.

But we keep plugging on; election is in three weeks.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Slag
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 11:57 PM

Well, I'd love to give my opinion on this but I don't want to invest the time just to have the PC powers that be on this site delete my work because they don't agree. It's happened to me more than once, I assure you. THAT'S Political Correctness.

I will just say that when the tail begins to wag the dog we all tend to becomes "tails" or we don't get to wag. Soon there is no dog: just tails. Consider this a Cautionary Tail.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 12:59 AM

A bogus tail, if I may say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: PMB
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 04:36 AM

I notice that our Victor hasn't been back. It's a standard tactic of the BNP and other racist groups to pose as "ordinary members of the public" when posting, to suggest a climate in which their views are not seen as the filth they are. A sort of soft entry, to pull in people with real (justified or not) concerns, and sugggest that they are more acceptable than they are.

So if we are ditching political correctness, let's do it properly. Intern and shoot all members of racist groups and their hangers-on without trial, before they do to Britain what Serbian (and other) nationalists did to Yugoslavia.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: skipy
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:09 AM

Civil war is coming!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:15 AM

I concur with the previous post about "our Victor". I am tempted to quote here from a PM I received from said Victor, bilious racist obscenity-laden capital-lettered filth.But I won't bother. Please, don't take his quite reasonable sounding trolling seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:16 AM

I wasn't on yesterday after I started this thread as I was visiting family. Do I ask your permission in future PMB ?

I am neither a racist or a supporter of those crackpots in the BNP, so wind your neck in PMB.

I brought a simple question to the forum and thankfully there have been many logical answers to my question.

I have many great friends who belong to "ethic minorities" and I fully respect their faith and traditions.

The question I asked was a simple one.

PMB, your an arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:20 AM

Skipy, don't for a moment think it could not happen here. PMB is right to point to what happen in Yugoslavia, I witnessed it from a lot closer and he is right. And the biggest lesson we could all learn from what happened there is that the animal in all of us is just below the skin. The same - and worse - could happen here if BNP have their way and rabid nationalism is allowed to grow. One minute you're talking separate Assemblies, the next X wants to control the North Sea revenue, and the mob is waiting just around the corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:24 AM

Victor, you're not helping your cause, whatever it is, with that reaction. A simple refutation would have sufficed. I am happy to take you at face value for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:34 AM

George, I simply started this thread after reading yesterdays papers and having listened to several stories on the radio and television news in the past week.

Several members answered my question with a civilised response.

The like of "greg stephens" weighted in with questions which required a private response (which I stand over greg) and it was without "bilious racist" remarks might I add.

This morning "PMB" accused me of being a member of the BNP.

So what should I do here, allow these clowns to make allegations against me ?

I repeat, I would not give the racist BNP the time of day. I despise racism, and I if appear inquisitive as to other peoples views on a subject I will ask. I will not be accepting insults from anyone be it it private or public.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:37 AM

"But we keep plugging on; election is in three weeks."


                  How do you think Pauline Hanson will do?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:54 AM

And what of OUR "Human Rights "

Exactly - I sometimes feel as though I don't have any!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politicallPery correct
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 10:38 AM

"Perhaps I ought to give a further explanation, lest my previous post be misunderstood as being in support of racism and all other -isms:"

No one would think that of you, George.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 10:40 AM

Except Chongo.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM

Perhaps "arsehole" is better applied to those who want to spread hatred between people. And perhaps Victor is just thinking lazily, but his rantlet did appear on the day a Tory candidate resigned after he brought up the old stale "Gawd bless Enoch" slogan. I can't see how allowing the churches to pick on gays helps his peace of mind, unless he enjoys the thought of discrimination against them. But racism and nationalistic appeals to the fears of uninformed people are risking destroying not just the "immigrant" communities, but the whole fabric of our society. Please don't play silly games out of ignorance; and if it's not ignorance, it's malice aforethought.

And I didn't accuse Victor of being a BNP member, but I did point out that this soft entryism is a regular tactic of theirs, and that the casual reader should be suspicious of the credentials of Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells (or Langley Mill for that matter).

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 11:17 AM

The first thread in which the expression ethically conscious was used

It was coined by the person who in this thread has ascribed it wrongly to Rick Fielding, namely by Katlaughing.

Rick Fielding has only applauded the use of "ethically correct" by Jon W. who was the first here to use this expression.

Of course, once or twice it has been rendered here as ethnically correct (conscious).

So (to come back to the opening post) if someone opposes the emigration of black people from Africa she is only ethnically conscious of where the best place for this ethnicity is (or should we say, in the context of Africa, ethnivillage?

Wolfgang (not serious in the last paragraph)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 11:22 AM

"It's a standard tactic of the BNP and other racist groups to pose as "ordinary members of the public" when posting, to suggest a climate in which their views are not seen as the filth they are."

About two years back I got into it with the BNP and some people who were posting on Mudcat (who also posted to Stormfront). Lost some friends here because of it (tough shit) and learned that not too many folks are willing to put their names where their 'social' mouths are; that is, they wanna talk the talk but not walk the walk. That said, Victor ain't one of 'em (BNP type), IMO, so maybe everyone ought to cool down just a bit, no offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: skipy
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 11:37 AM

"Skipy, don't for a moment think it could not happen here"
Hi GP, I expect it to happen here!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 02:11 PM

Wolfgang, I had already posted a link to that thread. I realise I mis-stated Rick as the originator of "ethically conscious." I don't think it's worth splitting hairs over; he said "correct" as did Jon W.,and I took it to "conscious."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 02:11 PM

Thread drift, but...

"One minute you're talking separate Assemblies, the next X wants to control the North Sea revenue," If that's a dig at the Scottish National Party it's not really too fair, George.

The SNP have always been pretty open about wishing complete independence for Scotland, and also pretty vocal about the fact that most "British" oil comes from what would be Scottish national waters if they were independent.

I don't think the disaster of the way Yugoslavia broke up should be grounds for getting too worried about what would happen Scotland achieves independence. The example of how the Czechs and the Slovaks managed to part amicably enough, and the Norwegians and Swedes and the Danes and Icelanders also showed how these things can be handled without too much upset.

And though the initials of the SNP and the BNP may sounds similar, they are poles apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 04:18 PM

At one time the SNP were known as "Tartan Tories" and were very right wing.

Thankfully, as McGrath says times have changed. The modern SNP are quite a bit to the left of Labour....not that that's saying much!!

Of course we're too PC...Try to hold an objective discussion about homosexuality, multiculturalism or immigration on this forum and just watch the heads poke out from under the stones.   They have all the newest words designed to sabotage the discussion and the hatred is palpable.

In one memorable thread ,I was accused of being "the type who probably abuses my own children"....simply for giving my views on a controversial subject.

There is a lot of venom sloshing about the slimier corners of this forum........Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 04:19 PM

Ah, Riginslinger has reminded us of the past.

Pauline Hanson (who, when accused of xenophobia, questioned the interviewer with "Please explain!?" leading to a few songs lampooning her) is not standing for her old House of Reps seat (Blair) based around Ipswich in Queensland. But I gather she is standing for the Senate.

The battle between the major parties for government will be won in the House of Reps but the balance of power in terms of 'what can be done with/about legislation' will be determined in the Senate. That battle is now so intense that I suspect parties like the Greens might have more traction than the remnants of Pauline Hanson's One Notion. But I haven't caught up with last Saturday's registration of Preference flows.

Although it can be rather crowded, we live in Hope!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:20 PM

Well, Ake, there are genuine disagreements around - but I don't think that a bullshit label like "politically correct" helps, whether that's being presented as a good thing or a bad thing.

And I can hardly rememeber any occasions where anyone has actually useed that label except as something to attack. Leaving aside people whose concerns are just about lawsuits and legal issues, and I do leave such people aside.

But courtesy and consideration for other people who often get treated without either of those thinsg does matter a great deal, and I don't actually think there are many people who would disagree with that as a ruling principle, though we might disagree over details about what that should imply in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:22 PM

It sounds like the Australian Senate is quite different than the American Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM

And the Canadian Senate. In the words of Mark Twain, "A benevolent old asylum for the helpless."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Bainbo
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 06:16 PM

Apparently you're not even allowed to refer to psychiatric hospitals as "asylums" any more.












It's madness gone politically correct.

(Copyright Armando Ianucci)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 06:43 PM

"Asylum" is an example of what was a positive label, adopted for that reason, which has lost that quality largely because the places themselves didn't live up to that positive intent. That has often happened.

But in any case the large places which were charmingly referred to as "Lunatic Asylums" have ceased to be the way people with mental illnesses are treated, and carrying over the term "asylum" to use for the small units where people with mental illnesses are treated would be misleading.

Changing names and using positive language by itself doesn't make any real difference, and it can camouflage horrors at times. (For example "Arbeit macht Frei" on the gates into Nazi death camps). But changing names as part of a change in the way people regard other people is something that can help.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:08 PM

'"Lunatic Asylums" have ceased to be the way people with mental illnesses are treated,'

            Now we elect them president and send them to the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:13 AM

Kevin, I was not referring to the SNP or indeed Plaid Cumry or any other specific party, neither did I want to implicate them indirectly. I just wanted to make the point that one could be complacent, thinking the worst atrocities couldn't happen in the UK in the name of petty nationalism. The Yugoslavs too thought they were living in a civilised country, after all.

If such a thing ever transpires for the UK - and I fervently hope it will not - it will be despite the advice of such parties, not at their instigation (with BNP the sole possible exception in this). Incipient xenophobia, racism and other such traits can simply coagulate around whatever handy organisations exist at the time (in Byzantium, the Iconoclasts and their opponents formed around two competing sports teams to wreak their havoc, for chrissake!).

Last weekend my daughter was visiting an old schoolmate studying in Bangor. She heard amazing stories of persistent unprovoked violence by local youths against students and outsiders generally. Sure, some of it is the old "town v gown" syndrome; but much of it goes well beyond. How hard would it be to marshal such feelings into something really ugly? Not very, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:41 AM

George....You confuse ethgnic/religious differences with political/ economic domination.

The Scots like the Irish, might be prepared to die for political freedom.......But I don't think so...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: PMB
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:24 AM

I agree, George. The forces unleashed by racism, homophobia and so on go far beyond the immediate perceived problem. It seems to start with the deep inner conviction that "something" is badly wrong, progresses to finding a scapegoat, then legitimnises violence against that scapegoat. After this point, the violence sustains itself quite simply because it can, that the primitive and childish instinct to lash out to alleviate feelings has been held in and is now released. That what was behaving badly is now defending your community. So perfectly respectable career soldiers like Ratko Mladic were transformed into inhuman war criminals.

We might seem to have have got a long way from a Daily Mirror grumble about PC, but you've only to be in a pub full of (white) football supporters to see how easy our society could fall into such a trap. the Italians appear to have done so this week, trumpeting their outrage against crimes by foreigners, while remaining silent about crimes committed by Italian "vigilantes" on (probably innocent) EC migrant workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:23 AM

Ake, the point is that these things are confused in many people's minds; especially after a few bevies. And of course, they can be also abused for cross purposes (those of religious interests pointing out at the economic "injustices" and vice versa). Why, just see how the biblethumpers are using, and are used by, the economic and other interest groups in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:37 AM

"Why, just see how the biblethumpers are using, and are used by, the economic and other interest groups in the US."



                   Of course, in this case we are talking about people without minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:42 AM

To the extent that political correctness has taken away our ability and willingness to laugh at ourselves and our human frailties, I think it has damaged us immeasurably. The road to hell is supposedly paved with good intentions - PC, in excess, may be among them. It disturbs me to see so many people afraid to express themselves for fear of chastisement. At times, especially at institutions of higher learning and in the mass media, it becomes an outright abridgement of the right of free expression. The old "Sticks and stones" admonition of our parents' generation seems to have disappeared in yet another misguided pursuit of utopia. Is book burning next?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Amos
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:56 AM

IT also strikes me as perverse and strange that in an age where someone who is old has to be called chronologically gifted so as not to smack of ageism, someone like the harridan of the right, Ann Coulter, can slander and slam her little black heart out in mass media without being shut down, and the great liberal tradition of our best hopes can be somehow mislabeled with hateful names by folks who make good money doing so in print or on the air... I believe that political correctness is a bad idea, and that individual manners is a preferable alternative. When self-defined, voluntary codes of right action become mandated as group totems and shibboleths, they lose all their meaning.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 12:32 PM

As a pensioner who already knows he is a bit of a dinosaur, believe me I wish to Christ I had never started this thread. I have received messages calling me a "troll" a member or supporter of the "British Nationalist Party" a "racist" and "homophobic".

I wish to say I am none of the above, what I am is an old fool who started a thread here after reading last Sundays newspapers and thought it would make an interesting thread.

What it has shown me is some members of mudcat cafe sit at their keypads on a battle footing awaiting a green light.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 12:55 PM

That should read "signal to proceed" - "Green light" is no longer to be used in case it confuses or offends the colour vision impaired.

Like TJ, I bemoan the disappearance of some humour. The best jewish jokes used to be made by people of that very faith; the best Irish jokes by Irish folk. They used to be good-natured (not the working men's clubs kind of humour). Groucho Marks would have been out of a job today.

And talking about the great Groucho, I heard a side-splitter last week on the radio, as part of the commemoration of 75 years since he hit the scene: While hosting a quiz show on Armed Forces Radio at the start of his career, he asked a contestant "tell us something about yourself". The discussion continued as follows:

"Well, I have a wife and thirteen children"
"THIRTEEN children? Why so many?"
"Because I love my wife".
"I love my cigar too, but I take it out now and then".

Aahhh, those were the days...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

Incorrect halloween costumes are now likely to get you fired or reprimanded at a company party.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 02:25 PM

ufos are still politically incorrect.

Back in 1951 the subject had much more respect. http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/plan-9-from-outer-space/2007/11/02/1193619145400.html?page=3

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 02:31 PM

eanjay, I have sent the cartoon in your link to a number of friends.
It hits the nail, but the blog with it has a lot of nonsense (imo).

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 02:33 PM

Q, thanks for that.

I've had the link deleted because I was concerned that it might offend someone.

You have made me feel better though.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 03:48 PM

Basically it's a load of bollocks, idiots getting offended on behalf of others! If I wish to refer to someone as a working class oik or a raghead I will.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Peace
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:36 PM

I agree with the fuckhead who just posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:36 PM

"Politically incorrect" should mean accidentally voting for a candidate from the wrong party.

It should be retired as a way of talking about making sure to avoid insulting other people by using labels they are understood to find offensive. That is better referred to as "common courtesy".

And in fact that has to a considerable extent happened. My imperession is that by now it is mostly used as a put down - "political correctness gone mad" and so forth.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 07:24 PM

Plan 9 was not made until 1954.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Peace
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 07:41 PM

Great flick, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:54 PM

"Incorrect halloween costumes are now likely to get you fired or reprimanded at a company party."


                   Yeah, I couldn't believe that one either.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 08:22 AM

Hasn't it always been the case that costumes at a company oparty are liable to get people into trouble if they get up the nost of the management?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: goatfell
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 10:35 AM

YES WE ARE HERE IN BRITIAN AND AUSTRALIA WHERE THEY HAVE EVEN politically corrected a jellyfish in case it gets offended I mean a bloody Jelly fish for God sake. that's how bad it is

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: GUEST,Director RSPCJF
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 10:51 AM

Hey, jelly fish have rights too you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Peace
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM

True. They go well on toast with peanut butter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 11:49 AM

This thread seems like deja vu.

There was one almost identical in July called 'BS: Has anyone noticed....UK' here:BS: Has anyone noticed....UK

Possibly the same originator under a different name?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 12:19 PM

One point to keep in mind is that quite a lot of the shock horror examples turn out to be complete fabrications or distortions.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 01:04 PM

As the thread winds down, we get to the real truth, which is that "Political Correctness" is really self-defense--in both the UK and the US--there are a lot of people, some of them very well organized, who will use any opportunity, down to a slip of the tongue, or a bad word choice, to publicize their grievances, both real and imagined.

And I would apolgize for my spelling--I believe that self-defence" is a valid and acceptable spelling, and furthermore, I've been under a doctor's care, and taking medication. And that should have been apologise....

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 02:46 PM

I have clarified to Mr. Happy above through pm that I never started any other thread here under a different name.

"This thread seems like deja vu.

There was one almost identical in July called 'BS: Has anyone noticed....UK' here:BS: Has anyone noticed....UK

Possibly the same originator under a different name?"

He has accepted it wasn't me.

Anybody else wishing to put the boot in please do so by pm.

Thank you

Victor

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: DougR
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 03:14 PM

What Little Hawk said in his first post on this thread. Yes.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM

I hope political incorrectness continues unabated. As a cartoonist the practice is essential to keep my work edgy.


The halloween costume that caused the person to be reprimanded was wearing dreadloocks and black face while sporting Jamaican clothes.
She was a white woman.
And thats a no no now.

An update to my prediction 13 weeks ago of a Bush tragedy, although some would argue that he is constantly tragic, is coming up this month. We shall see what we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 04:15 AM

Now this isn't directed at Victor- I know now that he isn't BNP or even anything worse than what he said himself, becoming an old fart, like many of us. But this story reminds me of many car journeys out to work on site in the company of other, normally perfectly respectable, engineers. If anyone crossed the road in front of the car, someone would count the "points" for running them down; 1 point for a little kid, 5 points for a woman, 10 pints for an OAP... and 100 points for a "Paki". Harmless non-PC fun? Or an indicator of hidden rage? Or somewhere inbetween.

As I've said elsewhere before, when PC is used to defend the vulnerable, it's just plain common sense. When it's used as a method of attack, playing the game that nothing you say can be right, it's just another part of the fight to dominate, and is a form of bullying. But when the Daily Mail attacks the use of "melanin enhanced" or "differently able", you can bet that what that vile rag really wants is to be able to print "wogs out" and "xxx is queer".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 06:18 AM

PMB, you missed out the pregnant woman :)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 06:39 AM

PMB, on a serious note I agree with what you have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 06:51 AM

"One point to keep in mind is that quite a lot of the shock horror examples turn out to be complete fabrications or distortions."
..07 Nov 07 - 12:19 PM

spot on Kevin!

for example the so-called 'downgrading' of Christmas published in the Daily Mail - where else?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Trevor
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:07 AM

"And what of OUR "Human Rights " ,"

Erm, who is the 'us' being referred to here?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:18 AM

It's important to get a happy medium and unfortunately we do not always achieve that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: Trevor
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:27 AM

If kids in the playground use 'spacker' as an insult then I hope you don't mind if my mate asks you to use another term to describe his cerebral palsy

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: GUEST,Ban political Correctiness
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:40 AM

I just hate Political Correctness because the people that use it don't just don't think how stupid it sounds, I mean that's their problem not mine, mind you there are certain words or phrases that are used now whichc even which offend me words like Scotch while talking about someone from Scotland, we are Scots

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:08 AM

Well Ban, objecting to being called "Scotch" is Political Correctness Gone Mad! I'd call them Unfortunately Located Persons.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 09:23 AM

PC was introduced in order to compensate for the fact that so many people today have absolutely no manners, and totally lack consideration for others,. This is mainly because they are so busy shouting ME ME ME all the time. That along with the fact that they seem not to have learned manners in the home. The words please and thank you have now become rarer then hen's teeth [Note for Spaw, not whale shit!], along with giving up one's seat to the elderly the infirm, or a pregnant woman.
So in order to compensate for this lack of good upbringing, along with the inability to think for themselves, today's generation have to be told what to say and what not to say, and because they think through their wallets, financial penalties have been attached.
Gosh, next thing you know they'll be keeping kids at school till they are 18, in order to make the youth unemployment figures look better.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Are we becoming too politically correct
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:23 AM

No, Giok, surely not. They wouldn't raise the school-leaving age to 18 now, would they?