BS: Fuel crisis

Subject: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:47 PM

I might not be able to get to the Jug on Wednesday because I may have run out of petrol by then. But I fully support the call for lower taxes on fuel. It's a lot cheaper everywhere else you go, so why should we have to pay so much more? Why do politicians always say "If we cut the tax on fuel it will mean less money for hospitals and schools" ? This is public blackmail. They could stop giving money to the "Dome", they could save more money by cutting down on the enormous binges, expense accounts and free travel that they get,they could save money by taking a pay cut like most of us have had to do in the last years (Tory as well), they could save money in many other ways and tax the "fat cats" at a higher level, but they continue with this blackmail. You might ask what has this to do with folk music? Well, there have been many united public outcries at injustice which have been used as a base for popular, then folk music. The miners strike, the poll tax demo's, anti vietnam demo's, Tolpuddle Martyrs, Cornish revolt, Peasants revolt to name justa few. Will we see truckers and others immortilised in song?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:51 PM

Only very rude ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt cookieless again
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:07 PM

Sorry to disagree with you eric, but I do believe that the level of taxation should be decided thru the budget and not because interested parties put pressure on governments through protest. Surely thats as much public blackmail. I do not deny them their right to protest although it would probably have had more effect nearer budget time. taxation is all a question of balance -fuel may be cheaper in France where personal taxation is a lot higher. If we put up personal taxation everyone, including pensioners who may not drive will suffer. I go to work on a bus because we refuse to be a 2 car family and it takes me nearly 1 hour to get to work and 2 buses. despite the crisis mothers were still ferrying there kids quarter of a mile to school and cars were still making journeys with one occupant. In the same news bulletin the enviroment agency was waring about future flooding in Yorks - environmental changes caused in part by our love affair with the car -we need to change not strike because prices are rising!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: LR Mole
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:15 PM

Goodnight, Octane." "A Fuel Such as I" "Pop goes the Diesel"

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:54 PM

Whatever the rights and wrongs of our reliance on fossil fuels, it has to be recognised that many of our essential services are now based on it. The speed with which these measures have taken effect on these services has highlighted how fragile this balance is, in the face of such an organised campaign. Hopefully a lesson will be learnt from this action.

There are many vulnerable people reliant on these essential services being delivered to their homes, who are being caused great distress by these actions. I would like to think that the people involved in and those who are supporting this action, will spare some thought for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Llanfair
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:58 PM

There appears to be very little fuel available here in Mid-Wales, and it seems that people from the west midlands have been coming here over the weekend to fill up their cars.
Great.
They go back to the cities and drive to work and take the children to school, then complain when they have to take public transport.
We have no public transport. The nearest supermarket is 10 miles away, as is the railway station.
I know that it is my choice to live here, and when the fuel runs out we will manage fine, but where do the city dwellers get the idea that they can exploit us and help themselves to our resources for their convenience.
Bron on her soapbox.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Mbo
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:25 PM

Fuel Crisis = Gas Panic!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:48 PM

Oh, but I agree with most things written here. The emergancy services and assistance like home care for the elderly, infirm and disabled should be paramount, Our love affair with the car has got to stop somewhere. But Taxing it out of the hands of the less well off, like the old and infirm and those earning only a pittance while others run about in their gas guzzling 2.5L and bigger engines (I only have a 1.4-more than big enough,I think 1.2L is big enough for a family car)is not going to be the answer, nor is it a move towards a more equal society. We have more people on the breadline in this country than ever before. I've lived in a rural community where there was a bus each way a day if you were lucky, how can people manage there without a vehicle? My kids walk the mile to school come rain,snow or shine. We refuse to let them travel by car and it's quite true that there are countless pointless journies of a few hundred yards all polluting the atmosphere. We go by cycle whenever we can, so are not so dependant on the car. But Icckle Dorritt-you and I have agreed many times, Government in this country is elected by the people to carry out their work in the best interests of the people and high taxation of fuel is obviously not the best interest. It puts up the price of every item we buy, unless it is very locally produced. Far better to invest in a rail infra-structure, send most things by rail to local depots and then use clean burning or electric energy to deliver, as well as building a really safe cycle network as they have in Holland, where more journies are made by cycle than car.And also, though personal taxation may be higher the retail prices of many items in many countries is much lower than ours. They have immense public support and the government should start governing for the people and not for it's and it's "old school tie/ruling classes cronies. Vive La revolution. Cheers. Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Diva
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:57 PM

Our nearest railway station is 50 miles. Bet Prescott's got enough fuel in both Jags.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:00 PM

gas guzzling 2.5 engine? hell, my lawn mower engine is bigger than that!! Sorry to be so glib, but, the point is, Everything is relative...to a germ. good health is a type of disease. We bitch like hell at $1.50 gas, but, when I was in Scotland 10 years ago, it was the equivelent of $2.50 per gal. We have had a free ride all these years..now, its time to pay the piper. By the way, I just sold my Motor home, the one with the 454 cubic inch engine. Is that around 8 litres?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:48 PM

Damn I knew I shoulda bought a sailboat...

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: paddymac
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:09 PM

All governments will find a tax of some form to get whatever amount of funds they think they need. The only real variable from one country to the next is how that burden is distributed. The only effective way to reduce the bite is to rationally reduce government spending. There are usually many seeming "frivolities" such as noted above, and while it is fair to decry such abuses, they generally are only a drop in the bucket. And then there's always the problem of one person's "excess" being the next person's "essential". Ain't democracy, in all its varied forms, grand?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:15 PM

Eric, i don't disagree with aything you say, we need to invest in a transport infrastructure expand the railways open up the canals build more pipelines but mainly discourage people away from the car Certainly those in rural communities have a right to expect affordable petrol, but there are people in my street who would not contemplate walking half a mile to the newsagents .Buses today have passed empty and yet queues of cars have been forming outside of garages. We have to educate people into choosing alternative methods of transport -sharing journeys expanding bus routes. But how do you stop them using the car - well frankly by either increasing road tax or putting up petrol prices I don't think there is any other way.Give VAT concessions to small businesses and farmers if you wish, but in the time honoured method of no gain without pain -keep tax on fuel and leave the car at home. (Businesses are not slow to spot a market -I do think that if the market for public transport increases then we will see better transport in rural and urban communities very quickly - I sight the reported increase in passenger train use since privatisation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:48 AM

In the time honoured fashion, hikes in fuel costs are just passed down to the general public anyway. The people involved in organising this action know this too. The whole point of this action is political.

These hard-up folk seem to have plenty of time to spare, to hang around fuel depots. Instead of trying to earn their living. They also seem to be able to afford and obtain the fuel to waste, aimlessly driving around our major roads.

I think possibly they are going to be the first victims of their own efectiveness and be stranded without fuel themselves, far from home.

I can feel a song coming on.........

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 02:53 AM

Fuel crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Auxiris
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 03:59 AM

I wasn't really planning on adding anything to this discussion, as those of us who live year round in this holiday paradise known as France now have this year's fuel crisis behind us. However, I'd like to make a few comments after all. First off, I don't know what gives anyone the idea that fuel is cheaper over here as some types of petol are fast approaching the 8 French francs a litre mark and the price of domestic fuel for heating has tripled over the last few months. Now, this strike business. . . it's not something that only happens once in a blue moon. Of course I agree that people need to be able to strike for better wages, working conditions and so on. . . . but all the time?? If it's not the truck drivers and all their "road professional" chums (such as taxi, ambulance and tour bus drivers, etc., etc.) blocking fuel depots and refineries, it's the train drivers on strike and if you depend on the trains to go to work, for example, you can't go and tough if it costs you your job. If it's not the train drivers, then it's the postal workers and too bad if you don't get your tax declaration sent in on time, you end up paying 10% more as a late penalty. If it's not the postal workers, it's the trash collectors and so what if it ends up all over the streets, it stinks and there are rats everywhere? If it's not the trash collectors, then it's the hospital personnel and God help you if you happen to be in hospital right then with something serious. If it's not the hospital personnel, well then maybe it's the school teachers and the children who ought to be in class loose a couple of weeks to a month and fall way behind in their studies and have to make up time at the end of the school year. And if it's not any of the above, it's the air controllers and/or the airport personnel and everyone's grounded. . . I'm sure you get the picture This strike-at-the-drop-of-a-hat stuff and the fact that it makes hostages out of lots of people who have absolutely nothing to do with this or that social conflict (that's what they like to call it) is one of the most difficult things---after the language, of course---to deal with over here. And it isn't just once in a while, it's ALL THE TIME. There was another big fuel shortage two years ago when the truck drivers had not only blocked both fuel depots but stranded a lot of truckers from other countries in France. Remember all that? and now that they've found out how effective it is, it certainly won't be the last. On the other side of the coin, I must admit that strikers certainly aren't entirely wrong, given that the people supposedly running this country let things degenerate to the point where the folks out there trying to scratch a living in France where one's income is taxed to the tune of about 45-50% feel that the only thing left to do is put on a strike in order to be heard.

Aux

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:30 AM

Today,if I had to come by bus I would have to leave the house at about 6.30am catch 2 buses (that run to a peculiar timetable - you know the sort - no buses for ages then three at once)I'd still have a lengthy walk after that and I cannot be sure that I would arrive on time. It would cost me three times as much in bus fares than it would at the current rate of petrol, and it would take 4 hours a day extra travelling time (thats 20 hours a week - nearly a whole day wasted).I want to see petrol come down in price, but if public transport worked I'd use that. I have only been driving for three years(the only one in the family that drives), before that we walked or bussed everywhere, and I can tell you from grim experience that I have probably spent more time waiting for buses than actually travelling on them. When I passed my test it was like a gift of freedom.
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Astorkhan
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:45 AM

Well, being a french resident as well, i must say that this country has lots to learn about preventing rather than curing a conflict. It often ends up making the symptoms disappar, but the illness is still lurking...What is most objectionable is this hijacking of one of the most important feature of our societies: mobility. Being an environmentalist by trade, the environmental crisis is not due to mobility. it is due to the way it is glorified and thought as a necessity. Power games strongly depend on this. The trucker strikes in Europe are indeed a power game. Unions should think twice when they show this aspect of their action. They should remember that they are a negoviation intance, not a political party...

In the US of A, I seem to remember that trucker unions (and others) are at the origin of the train decline. But this might be a historical mistake and i am sure that the car making lobby and the gas companies are not totally innocent in that decline.

Anyway, one question: is there somewhere in the mudcat universe, somebody who knows (about) a folk song that refers to the truckers and their "good roadly manners"? I heard (about) trains, horse carts of many kinds, long walks (how do you call pilgrimage?) in francophone, anglophone and hispanophone traditions, but truckers seem to be limited to "country" music...

Sorry about the few barbarisms included in this message...

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:55 AM

"It's clean clear to flag town, good buddy, looks like we've got us a Convoy!!!"

Anybody else think Kris Kristofferson fell between two stools?

Skipjack

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 07:40 AM

In the "good ol' USA, trucks didn't have squat to do with the decline of rail and in fact at one point, many railroads were profiting from increased truck transport. Rail decline had far more to do with bad management and government subsidies.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:09 AM

I can't cite sources for these opinions, but my understanding about the decline of rail in the US has always been that there were three root causes.

Trucks had an advantage over rail because, first, the rail unions were powerful enough to get high pay and lots of benefits, but since most long-haul truckers are independant owner-operators, and could charge whatever the market would bear, they had lower costs than the railroads. Added to this, railroads had to pay the costs for constructing and maintaining their track themselves, while the highways were built and maintained by government, with the cost spread over the whole population. That also gave the trucks a price advantage. Thirdly, the US is big enough that it can take two or three days to get from one place to another, within the country, by rail, so people turned to air travel for longer trips in-country that they would previously have done by rail, even as they turned to private automobiles for shorter trips. The railroads lost most of their passenger business.

Now, of course, commuters are taking two hours for what should be a half-hour trip on an uncrowded highway, because of congestion, and the airlines have turned into flying concentration camps whose departures and arrivals can't be relyed on. We need the railroads badly, but they're mostly gone.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:09 AM

Utah Phillips tells a story about an aged hobo who couldnt climb into a box car anymore, so, he commited suicide. He laid down on an Amtrak rail and starved to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:13 AM

Today the streets of Edinburgh were clammed up by farmers and hauliers. So I took the train. It took me 30 minutes longer to get to my gig than I would have by car in normal times, and cost me £13+ rather than £4. Can I check I've got this straight? At a time when farmers need every daylight hour, and every drop of diesel they can find, a group of farmers have shut off the supply of diesel to themselves. Also involved are a group of hauliers, whose cutthroat pricing and mutual undercutting has shaved their profit margins to the bone, so they need every load they can carry. In search of a higher profit margin, the two groups have decided to cause me and millions of others massive discomfort, loss of income and and time, general aggravation and worry, and added various levels of increased risk. The farmers and hauliers expect me to be annoyed not with them, but with the Goverment. I am already annoyed with the Government, over various matters. Now I'm annoyed with the farmers and hauliers too. In what way am I being benefited by all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Auxiris
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:31 AM

Hello, Ewan. . . I can certainly appreciate what you say since the first edition of our storyteller festival was destroyed by fuel blockades last week in France. The blockades went up the night (Monday) before the festival began and by Wednesday there wasn't a drop of petrol to be had, at least not for anyone not driving a "priority" vehicle, as any petrol stations that had any fuel left had by then been requisitioned. Our non-profit organisation had hoped for enough income from festival attendance to start paying a part-time (perhaps eventually even full-time) employee. We don't yet know if this will now be possible so the blockades have probably cost one more job. . .

Aux

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:36 AM

Could you believe this??!!

Just when theres not a drop of petrol in Leeds, we manage to get a split in our fuel tank, and all our petrol is on the road!!

If the government wants to end this quickly, it should agree to some sort of tax rebate for people who have to use a large amount of fuel in earning a living.

KT

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GMT
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:25 AM

That's really tough Bagpuss.

On Monday I'm 'supposed' to be taking my beloved away to Betsw-Y-Coed for four nights for her fortieth birthday.

Some hopes, and it's already paid for.

I suppose while the suns still shining they'll be happy to sit and ruin everyone elses day.

Ewan is right the whole thing is a bit counter intuitive.

Gary

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GMT
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:26 AM

That's really tough Bagpuss.

On Monday I'm 'supposed' to be taking my beloved away to Betsw-Y-Coed for four nights for her fortieth birthday. We live in Bedford.

Some hopes, and it's already paid for.

I suppose while the suns still shining they'll be happy to sit and ruin everyone elses day.

Ewan is right the whole thing is a bit counter intuitive.

Gary

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GMT
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:27 AM

Oops. Sorry

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:59 AM

My Dear misinformed friend Midchuck, Trains quit being profitble almost as soon as they were invented,In FACT,if it were not for trucks,they would all of ended up in the scrap heap years ago. By this I mean if it were not for government subsidies,they would have gone out of buisness. Where did these Govt. subsudies come from? Highway use tax.Paid by whom?? Truckers.So the money we were paying to supposedly maitain our highways, were instead going to the railroads to keep them afloat, so that they could provide some sort of compitition for the trucking industry.Haul the same freight cheaper,so in essence,we were paying our competitions wages so they could steal our money.DUH!!As far as lowering fuel prices, Or giving us a tax break,Well,in the past year fuel has risen by 38%to 45%. Because fuel is our major expense second only to tires, that computes into taking away 28% of my net profit.Would you be able to survive if your boss decided to pay you 28% less???We(the independent Truckers/ small buisness owners),are trying to have legislation passed that will place a mandatory fuel surcharge on all shipped items to defray some of these incured costs util such time that the transportation costs(freight rates)increase accordingly so that we can again see profit in our interprise.Folks I've been in the Trucking buisness all of my life,I've seen good times and bad, but I've never seen it worse than it is now.The used truck market is flooded with all the Owner/Operators,and small trucking companies going out of buisness,it won't be long until the only people hauling freight are the major trucking companies.There are only three major trucking companies.If they have control over all the freight moved then they can set their own prices,and the price will be paid!and that will be passed on directly to the consumers This isn't going to be a gradual thing folks. If trucking loses the free interprise systems that have been able to keep the prices down all these years. We'll all pay a dear price.Good Gawd! I was only browsing, I hadn't meant to add anything today,but once you get me goin' well.... Anyway I've gotta be in L.A. in the morning with my load so once again I'll kiss the wife and my boys and off I'll go.Thanks again Catters for lettin' me go off like this but hopefully someone will have gotten some insight from the message I've tried to relay.Lotsa Love, -Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,-Biskit-
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:01 PM

Hey! who took my cookie???!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Grab
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:05 PM

In Cambridge, damn near everywhere seems to have stopped selling petrol. A friend at work went looking for half an hour or so, and couldn't find a single petrol station selling unleaded. Apparently a few are still selling super-unleaded, and more are still selling diesel, but there's very little standard unleaded left. She said that at one garage, the owner advised her to use normal 4-star instead, but not wanting a £600 bill for a new catalyst, she declined!

Eric, there's a bit of misunderstanding here. The government is no longer funding the Dome - this comes out of the lottery funds (although granted it was government money that got it built in the first place). When the lottery was first set up, the government decided (quite rightly, IMO) that hospitals, schools and other "core" areas shouldn't be funded out of lottery money, cos the moral grounds for this are rather dubious - "bet more to get better healthcare" doesn't sound like a good policy to me, and it wouldn't have helped their popularity any.

Why should you have freely-available cheap petrol anyway? I love those folks you see driving around in big 2-litre cars on their own, or in smokey VW vans, with Greenpeace stickers on the back! Apparently conservation and environmentalism is something that only happens in Brazil...

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Biskit
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:12 PM

Whew! got my cookie back. Oh well gotta go.-Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:13 PM

Bagpuss, I'm a common criminal. I'm in Leeds, and I've got two gallons of unleaded in cans, which you can have gratis, when you've cured your leak (Use Leakfix, by Plastic Padding, it's reet good), just because you're a Mudcatter, and I like you!

Skipjack

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt-given up with the cookie
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

I like to think there is a positive side to everything and yes, low and behold the local Shell garage which has no fuel left is flogging off its Cornettos for 25p each!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

I'm with Eric on this one. There comes a time when you just have to say ebough is enough and for the small haulage companies (often one man businesses ) and farmers,particularly livestock farmers the current rate of tax on fuel is putting them straight into the bankruptcy courts. If they are using their small ammount of remaining fuel to protest it's because they need to reduce the price in order to survive. Personally I would find the 13 mile journey to my work extremely difficult by public transport and will be very inconvenienced by this crisis but I still stand in support of the protesters and am horrified bythe Thatcherist statements issuing from a so called labour government about not being bullied by illegal blockades and pickets. Shades of the miner's strike here! Firstly many of the blockades are not illegal and the police have said they are powerless to do anything. Secondly since it has been widely reported that supplies destined for the emergency services and sanitation plants have been allowed through then the protesters are not putting lives at risk. I also think I would prefer to have this happen now rather than wait for the budget which takes place at a much colder time and let's face it budgets are prepared months in advance so maybe now is just the right time. The people I am most angry with in this are those who are blatently profiteering by putting their petrol prices up to £2/litre. Such action in wartime would have had them shot but that may be a bit drastic!!! And yes I AM cross that I won't be able to come to the session at the Jug!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 02:27 PM

I was suprised at the effectiveness of this action, at first. It has become clear however that the protesters are not responsible for this.

There is little or no threat to the tanker drivers and the union involved is instructing it's members to work normally

It is a very strange dispute indeed when a commercial company do not have the will to deliver their product????????

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 03:01 PM

Oh jolly!! Not to make light of this serious subject but. I am aware that we fund the "Dome" and many other initiatives and smaller charities from our gambling, habitual, hope it will be me this week, lottery money. But We are not asked how it should be spent. Here and where I used to live are a playgroups, they can't get lottery money! They only just manage to exist and they are needed badly. They (Government) can throw millions of "our" money to the "Dome", The national Opera house (£46.000.000) and yet only a pittance to the smaller "good" causes.!! Lottery money has and is going into school as NoFTI (new opportunities funding training initiative) for Computer training,and helped to set up the national grid for learning. I am not saying that what is happening is the best thing going, but how else do the people make the government listen to the wishes of the people?-(Do you want the poll tax back?) I know that there is diversity of feeling on this as there is on many things, but be honest-If the tax on petrol went down (not to be replaced with another form of tax) How many people would send the extra revenue to the gevernment because they didn't support the action? It like the trade unions who (though I don't always agree with how things have happened) strike for a pay rise and every employee gets the rise-nobody says "I didn't strike, don't give it to me". I would use public transport more myself if it was affordable, but it isn't and I have waited for non existant buses and been in places where there isn't a bus today the next one is Thursday. What ever happens, things will get interesting. Cheers (only a little petrol but a bicycle) Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:44 PM

600 pounds for a catalytic converter? Man, do you folks over there get shafted! Thats about 6 times as much as you would pay here.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:18 PM

Introduce some kind of device in cars like a taxi-meter, so that as you go along you get a visual indication of how much it is costing you (that'd slow the drivers down as well, and save a few lives).

Bring down the price of public transport so that it's cheaper to use it than to use a car. Use taxes on petrol and road charges to pay for this.

Isn't it interesting to see how the people in the British media and political establishment who normally deplore any kind of industrial action are falling over themselves to back the lorry drivers? I'm reminded of the same kind of lorry owners strike that happened in Chile in the run up to the CIA organised putsch by Pinochet.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Lox
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:47 PM

It just goes to show how dependant we are on oil!

What are we going to do to prepare for when it runs out? (in fifty years or thereabouts)

I think that this has been an oportunity to take a look at our comfy cosy "secure" lifestyles, and to realize that it could all come tumbling down around our ears in a moment.

This is a lesson in alternative ways of approaching the way we live our lives from a real and tangible perspective.

I don't have a car, and my bike is doing fine. The problem for me is what happens to our food supply when something like this happens again on a more longlived scale.

All it takes is a couple of well positioned semtex devices .......

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:33 AM

There are so many dichotomies in this "crisis".

A radio poll claimed that 89% of the people being inconvenienced support those who are inconveniencing them.

It costs me £50.00 to fill my tank in UK, £30.00 in France, Germany, Austria and Italy (recent trip to Lake Garda), yet the amount of traffic on our roads is causing serious damage to our quality of life.

I agree with everyone who wants to take the initiative to improve public transport through taxes on fuel, but politicians don't seem to have the balls to grasp the problem (does anyone seriously believe that the Prescott twat could do anything about anything, let alone something difficult).

I would happily pay double the tax on fuel to achieve better public transport and persuade cars off the road.

The government always defaults to the moral blackmail that the National Health Service and education will suffer. The reason for this is that the "free" health service and "free" education are outmoded concepts. Both are monumentally inefficient in usage of money and need to be changed. In times of wartime austerity these two socialist ideals (small "s" as they have been supported by all parties) were the means whereby health and education achieved a step upgrade. Great, but we're not in that situation any more. The private sector can and must be integrated and work in tandem with the public sector if we are to gain a step increase in efficiency appropriate to where we are nowadays, yet successive bodies of politicians resist this - all on idealogical grounds. We'll get nowhere unless someone is prepared to act energetically. Now, who was the last politician to do that?

Cheers, Terry (in "ranting" mode instead of the more normal "reflective")

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: sledge
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:44 AM

Lox, the Oil will run out but in a lot more than 50 years, more is found each day, new techniques for extraction are allways being developed. The most recent figure I've heard is closer to two hundred years so the love of cars will have a lot longer to go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 03:40 AM

I think a lot of people are missing an important point here: the government will take the money from somewhere else if they don't get it from the duty on fuel. You guys on the other side of the Pond - how much sales tax do you pay? In the UK we pay 17.5% - that's
seventeen-point-five percent!! - in VAT already; we don't pay it on food or one or two other essentials - yet. Maybe we should raise income tax instead? At least everyone pays according to their means.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 03:48 AM

So that's all right. Meanwhile the ozone hole gets bigger and the planet is shot to hell.

"Free" education and "free" health service has never been free in the sense it doesn't cost money. But if there's something that everyone needs, why have a system where you get privileged access to it just because you've got more money? How come the more we have the less willing we are to pay for the things we need in common?

These still are "times of austerity" in reality - it's just that we've found ways of putting the burden on the poor of the world and on our children and our children's children, who are going to get by in a devastated planet, thanks to our selfishness.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:08 AM

As long as man is ruled by the allmighty dollar, you will see no change, and we will continue the slide down the slippery slope. An alcoholic is only interested in his next drink. A company is only interested in its bottom line. In a word..GREED.CORPORATE GREED. wITNESS THIS TIRE THING, THEY DONT CARE WHO GETS KILLED, THEY CARE THAT THEY GOT CAUGHT. And, Doug, if the "actor" and his administration hadn't gutted the NHTSB and took away its authority, this would have come to light much sooner. However, this was one of the ways that he "Got government off our backs" Lets them have free rein to do business. Whats a few deaths if we have prosperity?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:10 PM

Steve, put very succinctly-however if you recall from the last election Labour was voted in on a mandate of lower personal taxation- democratically I recall. The fact that the electorate supports an action because they envisage the government will cave and fuel prices will lessen says a lot about society today.i.e I want it all I want it now and if I can get away with not paying for it all the better . Anyway, I am one of the minority who would be happy to see higher N.I. and tax for proper provision in the health service and education and I would insist of compulsory savings toward pension provision. I am afraid when 1 in 4 of working people in this country do not have any kind of non state pension provision then I think it says something about the state of affairs. However, I should think any political party expounding the same would likely lose its deposit (Who are the lib dems anyway)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:21 PM

So we switch to natural gas and put a meter on Cletus. Sorry - I couldn't help myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:50 PM

McGrath, it's just the opposite! Those who have the means to pay for the health and education of their choice are being coerced to remain in the State system, hence absorbing resources that could better be shared among those who can't afford to pay. It makes absolute sense that if you persuade people out of a funded system, there will be more left for those that stay in. The political ideology that refuses to accept that State provision is in any way less than the best, is exactly what is preventing the State provision from achieving its purpose.

And I can't think of many things where you don't get a better crack of the whip if you have more money - isn't that where people get their incentives from?

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:57 PM

Gee whiz, Kendall, I didn't do it! The "Actor" did! I just voted for the "Actor."

I have read every line of every posting on this thread, and I vow never again to complain about the cost of fuel in the U. S. In my memory, we have only had one major fuel crisis in this country. People had to line up at service (petrol)stations to buy gasoline. Everybody went nuts! We were paralyzed!

After reading the postings of those who live in France, Great Britain, and other countries in the world, I recognize just how lucky we are here in the US of A.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: oggie
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:32 PM

Ickle Dorritt,

Unfortunately personal taxation is going UP under Labour not down - it's just being collected differently so it does not appear on a Pay Slip as Income Tax. For example a change in the way pension funds are taxed raises billions of pounds for the Government which means that in order to get the pension I hope for I have to put more in (I am self-employed) but it will hit everyone eventually as Pension Fund revenues are hit. We will all pay but you won't notice it on your pay slip. Another example - try persuading the Revenue you are self-employed as, for example, a musician or actor. The logic is that when you perform you work for someone and therefore you are an employee and should be subject to PAYE. The catch is that as an employee your petrol, car, instruments, costs of auditions are NOT tax allowable, you pay then out of your net income!

It's a culmination of things like this that cause long term resentment and I think the petrol issue is just the final, visable straw.

All the best

Steve