BS: Fuel crisis

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:36 AM

I did say I was being paranoid, Jon. (My excuse is that I was, unknowingly, sickening for a bug. I should have recognised the symptom) But someone in the press pointed out how we had gone for the refineries in Kosovo to paralyse the country, and we've now seen how easy it is to do it without bombs, relying on the self-centredness of the population. We have also seen how easy it is to whip up violence and witch-hunt behaviour. This does have me uneasy, jarring the image I have had of the place where I live. I believe Tony Blair is wrong to say that demonstration and protest is not part of British political behaviour, but I have been as guilty of blindness in forgetting the Gordon riots.

I am puzzled by the references to mobile phones as the medium for this. In Portsmouth, there was a contained community where people knew each other. This is more difficult to see applying across the country. You have to know people's numbers, and that they agree with you for this to work. I've been involved in an organised phone tree, and it isn't easy to imagine a spontaneous version.

I don't think that these things were, themselves, a conspiracy beyond their immediate purposes. But they have shown that we are vulnerable to influences which can whip up extreme reactions. And there are people who might like to have that knowledge. Whether they are people with access to the means is another matter.

Since my intemperate, not entirely serious post, a number of other things have made me less than happy. The govt. web site of lists of garages, which someone was able to titivate each day, changing the format from Excel to Acrobat to CSV, never added the list of occupations entitled to buy fuel, which I only found on teletext. Both of these means are not universally available, anyway, which enhanced the word of mouth spreading of inadequate information which led to pointless queueing. The selected garages were not necessarily in places where queues could easily be accommodated. The nearest one to me had a motorway sliproad and a roundabout so that three streams were waiting. I think, from the rate of movement, that the sliproad was given priority. If these were the plans they had for the gulf war, they weren't very good.

There was no limit on the amount of fuel bought. In the circumstances, I feel that there should have been, from as early in the business as possible. I remember rationing. It worked. It should have been part of the current plans. Organising parties in breweries and ways out of paper bags come to mind. Probably the inability of a government (whatever colour) to organise better is most worrying.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

Oh I am sure that we should be worrying about this government. They lie and decieve, they twist and turn, they manipulate,they are controllers, not makers of freedom, they do precious little to make things better for the common man (like others before them-but not all) but in opposition they declared that they should be whiter than white and better than ever and that they would represent the WHOLE country. To many of us who hoped for a brighter future (at least in part for our children)they have been a Bitter disappointment.I don't want the Tories back, but I believe they have shot themselves in the foot over this and now many are baying for their blood, especially the media who are now listing all the faults that have occurred since they took office. Cheers. Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 02:44 PM

Please Eric lad, could you break up the text a bit? It makes my eyes water trying to read great lumps of print on the screen! (You probably know how already, but if you don't, you just put {P} at the end of every paragraph - except that instead of { and } you put < and > )

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 04:46 PM

And don't that as a criticism Eric, because it all seemed to make good sense to me.

But JamesJim's "80% tax on anything is absolutely ridiculous!!!! " doesn't. Not as a general proposition, because it's too easy to think of examples where that might be a perfectly reasonable level of tax.

For example, if I use something that causes a lot of pollution, why shouldn't I have to pay for the cost of cleaning it up, and making good the damage? That is part of the real cost of the stuff, and just because it costs less than that to make it is no reason for loadsinmg the cost on to other people.

What the right cost for petrol should be, and who should decide it, and how we can find ways to spread the cost of keeping this planet habitable, in a way that is fair, those are other questions, and I'd never say that the British Government or any other government have got it right, or even look like getting it right.

But the principle that all of us should be responsible for the cost of clearing up the mess we make - that seems pretty basic to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: JamesJim
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:40 PM

McGrath, lad, as far as I'm concerned, you could never think of enough good reasons to tax anything at 80% (at least for me). I would bet that you would be very lonely, if we were all in one big room and an announcer said, "all who believe that an 80% tax on anything is a good idea, please move to the left of the room - all who believe that such tax could never be justified, move to the right of the room. The building would tilt right and you'd end up on our side.

However, I indeed do believe in Government oversight, which through the making of law can actually impose a tax, but in a different, less objectional form. For example, our government (US) already oversees air purity, by requiring manufacturers of the automobile and other vehicles, to provide engines that reduce pollution. Most local States/Cities test vehicles once per year to see that they are complying. This is certainly a tax to which I do not object. The reason is simple. It places the product produced in the free market - a competitive environment. Government never invented anything, but it's for sure that if you have two or more manufacturers competing for consumer dollars, they'll find ways to deliver economically.

As to oil spills (as an example), government should force offenders to clean up spills, etc. It's difficult for the offender to pass such costs on, simply because of competition (this may not be a good choice as an example, because we are probably dealing with an ologopoly in the oil industry and not true competition).

My point is very simple. Don't let government take your money and promise you they will be efficient with it! Ain't gonna happen!!!!

Cheers to you my friend and fellow Mudcatter! These words are written in good humour and good cheer. We are all in this world together and I know we both want to make the best of it.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 03:01 PM

Hi McGrarth-wondered how clever people did that is this working

This should work if I read what you say right. Cheers. Eric