DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments

Subject: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM

Any fledgling folk performer watching young Dylan's early attempts at stagecraft must have been heartened by some of the footage shown on BBC 4 last night. Struggling with tuning and capoing his guitar, followed by strangled harmonies with Joan Baez, shows how easy it is to look (and sound) rank amateur at times.

The message going out to all those performers who feel inadequate and embarrassed in front of their audience - stick with it - Bob did.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:05 AM

Agreed, but didn't you feel that something must have happened in his creative soul to start singing and performing as he did when he had written the post-folk masterpieces as exemplified by "Love minus zero' etc ? Even his demeanour changed in the film.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:33 AM

What happened to his creative soul is maybe what happens when you increase your exposure and therefore experience - with it comes confidence and expression. That's why it irks me to read of folks not giving support and encouragement to others; the subject of other threads here on mudcat.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:44 AM

I am guessing that the BBC showed the new film from Murray Lerner that consists of footage from the Newport Folk Festivals?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:54 AM

I couldn't get over how young he looked at his first Newport. Loved the all-too-brief clips of Fred McDowell & Muddy Waters in the first film. I'm not a great Bob follower but I've always enjoyed his early work. The early Newport casualness- everyone on stage waiting their turn- was refreshing, too. The last show with audience baying for more,and more encores showed the pressure popular performers are always under.

RtS
(In my case, after one number audience (?) bay for less.)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:58 AM

He is a performer who will do one of two things--because there is no middle ground: He will be fantastic and give a brilliant performance or he will bomb. Dylan has the status of being the single most prolific and greatest of songwriters, and IMO the rest of us will have to keep hoping we write as well even if not as frequently.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:09 AM

For a good description of the fun and games at Newport 1965, see Joe Boyd's excellent book "White Bicycles". He does lay some hoary old chestnuts to rest, such as the one about Pete Seeger supposedly taking an axe to the PA cables.

I think I spotted Joe in the Murray Lerner film last night (at the Dylan/Butterfield soundcheck), but maybe it's somebody else in the same hat.

I thought the best bit of the film was the MC (Peter Yarrow?) in fear of his life from the baying punters after Dylan's electric set.

Looking forward to the Scorsese DVD, there's some telling edits in it!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Rog Peek
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM

I completely forgot it was on. Are they repeating?
Rog

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,edthefolkie
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 12:08 PM

Well it was on BBC4 and they repeat EVERYTHING on that channel ad nauseam so I imagine another opportunity will come along soon.

Actually there were 4 programmes.

(1)A new BBC documentary with mind boggling items such as "The Blues and Soul Train" perpetrated by Granada TV in 1963. They (unsuccessfully) attempted to make a BR steam loco look like "The General". Muddy Waters, Sister Rosetta Tharpe etc. were then induced to perform on Chorlton station platform in the rain. Sister Rosetta arrived in a pony and trap and whipped out a Gibson SG. Indescribable.

(2) At least some of the new Scorsese film spliced together from the Murray Lerner one and others.

(3)The documentary about the lost BBC TV play featuring Dylan (A Madhouse on Castle Street).

(4) The Murray Lerner Newport film.

First time I've sat in front of the telly for 3 hrs for I don't know how long! Gave up at midnight and recorded the rest.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 03:04 PM

finished at 1.45 - not sure if I'll watch it again.

the puzzling thing is that that first album of Dylan's that was supposed to have been made in two shakes of lamb's tail. the guitar playing was supposed to be about two years earlier but it sounds a damn sight sight better that he did last night.

I don't suppose we'll ever get to the bottom of it.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 04:56 PM

Wow, you people are fussy! Complaining about guitarplaying on a 45 year old live performance!!!!   Jeesh!!!

In all seriousness, be sure to check out the Murray Lerner film "Festival" which was recorded at Newport over the course of several years. It also ends with the electric performance. You can see the director of Woodstock probably learned a few tricks from Murray before they created their opus.

"Festival" captures some magnificent as well as some very dated performances.   The comments from the audience are especially interesting.   Lerner is sitting on an archive of film and audio performances from Newport. They used some of the footage for the "No Direction Home" documentary and Lerner just released this new film.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:03 PM

I enjoyed the 1963 Newport stuff. Dylan was nice and relaxed, and sang well. Didn't like Joan Baez' harmony lines.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:07 PM

No matter how quickly that first eponymous album may have been recorded, it was made under ideal, quiet studio conditions, with the added luxury of recording multiple "takes."

It shouldn't be too surprising that the instrumental playing captured in the grooves would be superior to ("cleaner" than) whatever might be captured from a live performance at a large outdoor venue, especially when the performance in question was controversial and therefore probably nervousness-inducing!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 05:20 PM

Let us draw a merciful veil over Queen Joanie's unfortunate habit of howling along to Prince Bobby. We can all be a bit silly when we're young.
Fascinating films...especially interesting to watch the development of the Dylan persona over the successive years at Newport.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,The Pragmatist
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 07:29 PM

Ah, yes; yet again, the once anointed King and Queen of folk song resurface. I love some of Dylan's lyrics, though I never wholly liked his enigmatic persona and rather nasal delivery. Moreover, while he was, primarily, a creator of songs, Baez was seen as THE interpreter of traditional ballads. Some would (and still do) argue that he was never truly a "folk singer." Mind, this is from my first memory of them, circa 1961 or '62. What has transpired in the years since convinces me that he was a seminal musical force(if an acquired
taste). She, on the other hand, seems to be lost somewhere between folk, commercial and political personas, depending upon the time and place. In the long term, I fear her impact will be forgotten long before his.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 08:08 PM

Hey, I think that Bob Dylan desereve being graded on a "curve"... I mean, for gosh sakes, it was like '63 or so... Tell me who it was who was out there trying to bring a new sound to folks music???

The Weavers??? LOL...

The Kingston Trio??? LOL...

The Pozo Seco Singers??? LOL...

No, it was Bob Dylan who had done his homework, studied all forms of folk music and had figured out that if he could bring a mix of norhtern stiffy folk and southern blues to the table that he would indeed have brought folk further down the road...

Tell me again who else was making the effort...

Bobert (die-hard Dylan defender)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:01 PM

Those who knew Dylan and Baez well will never forget them.

As for Joan's role in life, she always said that she was basically by instinct some sort of politician for certain causes that moved her...one who just happened to get her message across mainly by singing. And she made no apologies for so being. She was not confused about her role. Other people were confused about it, because they had their expectations (based on something she'd down before), and they bloody well wanted them fulfilled! I can well recall being quite frustrated when she released some almost exclusively political stuff in the late 60's, early 70's, because I wanted to hear her do more modern ballads like she was doing in '65 (when she recorded some great Dylan tunes). Well, I had my expectations! ;-)

People were confused about Bob all the time for much the same reason. They had their expectations (based on something he'd done before), and their expectations weren't being met! Boo hoo!

A fan whose expectations have been frustrated by an artist's change in direction is a lot like a jilted lover...but in this case it's a jilted lover who never actually knew the beloved. It's a one-way obsession. Jilted lovers can be real pests. In rare cases they can even be quite dangerous.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:22 AM

Greg, because I'm a polite person I try to make allowances for Queen Joan Approximately's insistence on "enhancing" Bob's performances. After all one used to get similar, er, "harmonies" in English folk clubs. And I liked Joan singing Plaisir D'Amour, but then I was 17 or something.   

But I've got to say both my daughter and I have now both been caught yelling "SHADDAP JOAN!!!" at the TV. And my son's reaction on walking in from the pub just as she was howling along was....unprintable. He is a Motley Crue fan though so what does he know?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:49 AM

Well, I've always been a severe Dylan sceptic (made worse by his usurping of Nic Jones' Canadee-i-o that time!) but I sat though that Newport set tranfixed, thinking "Well, he wasn't half bad actually..." I recorded the other stuff and will definitely watch it all. Just don't get me started on his harmonica playing though. I'll never yield on that.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:04 AM

I like some things Dylan has done but I think he has been simply a unique songwriter who has written some of the most profound lyrics in song and so it doesn't matter what I like.

I found the scenes at the railway station with Muddy Waters and Sister Rosseta Tharp earth shattering. We were all in tears . We live not 200 yards from what was Chorlton Station where I believe the film was shot. In one scene Chorlton appears on a railway sign. She stands their in an enoumous coat looking like Auntie Thingy and plays the guitar like well like Sister Rosseta Tharp!

Before we start the campaigne to get a Blue Plaque put up on the remaining railway bridge can anybody confirm where the film was made?

Cheers

Les, obviously, in Chorlton

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:11 AM

Les: like you, we sat enraptured at home watching Sister Rosetta hoicking out that guitar and blasting off. Certainly a blue plaque job, preferably a vido screen on some nearby wall permanently playing that clip?
Pity Sister R T wasn't more widely publicised in those days. Alas, most English girls followed the Baez route for how to be a folksingers. A few more Tharpes and a few less warblers would have improved the 60's scene no end.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:13 AM

'" I recorded the other stuff and will definitely watch it all. Just don't get me started on his harmonica playing though. I'll never yield on that.'

Good for you, Steve. Great, inn't it?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:15 AM

Les, it was Chorlton cum Hardy! But the Beeb got it wrong - it was 1964.

See link

http://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/archive/showartefact.php?aid=2965&uid=4

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:16 AM

Sorry Les, that was me...trying to work and post at the same time.

Here's the link again

http://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/archive/showartefact.php?aid=2965&uid=4

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:23 AM

Interesting that the only people to surface with recordings of Madhouse in Castle Street had only turned the reel-to-reel on for the Dylan songs. Nobody was wasting precious tape on David Warner and co!

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:33 AM

Thanks Ed,

The details on the poster or flyer describe "Wilbraham Road Station" which would have been the next stop after Chorlton (-cum-Hardy). The line was disused alla Beeching.

Chorlton Station is now Morrisons super market and Wilbraham Road Station is lost underneath modern houses I think, still the railway bridge associated with Wilbraham Road Station still exists. The line has been turned into the Fallowfield Loop cycle way. Still a place for a plaque though.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:37 AM

Sorry,
dodgy information. Wilbraham Road Station was after the junction of Alexandar Park Road Wilbraham Road. I'll go and get me bike out and have a look and see what's left of the Station.

Cheers

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 10:24 AM

"the puzzling thing is that that first album of Dylan's that was supposed to have been made in two shakes of lamb's tail. the guitar playing was supposed to be about two years earlier but it sounds a damn sight sight better that he did last night"

I'm with the wee drummer on this one - I first heard Dylan's album in our school music room in 1962 - the response as I recall being "what the **** is this!!" - I can remember being appalled at the harmonica playing (I'd been playing harmonica for a couple of years at that time). The guitar playing on the album was vastly superior to that demonstrated at the festival, and it does raise a question.

Also interesting to note that Donovan's guitar picking was superior at that time!! I've always had my doubts about whether or not Dylan played guitar on "Don't Think Twice" too.

Don't get the wrong idea here - I am a big Bob Dylan fan and cover many of his songs. Not that big a fan though that I would spend good money to witness his "going through the motions" live gigs however.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: john f weldon
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:37 AM

I saw Dylan fingerpick Don't Think Twice on TV shortly after the album came out. He also played and sang well on other songs. He had good days and bad. (Still does.)
Also, in those bygone days, fumbling around on stage was part of the persona of many folkies; they were being "authentic".

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:52 AM

Less of the "were" john

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:53 AM

Yeah. Someone has to show the world how to fumble.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:09 PM

I actually find Bob Dylan painful to listen to, but I've been thoroughly enjoying the radio show. The one on Saturday evening on Radio Two (eyes) was a corker; he comes over like Zappa's 'Central Scrutiniser' meets Vic Reeves' Inspector Fowler - and he played some top tunes to boot.

As a result I watched the BBC4 footage with an open heart; a fascinating document, if only for how willing the folk-left were to subscribe to such celebrity cults no matter how ill-founded.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:10 PM

Indeed. ;-) Fumbling around onstage with capo, struggling with tuning, adjusting harmonica holder, etc...are all old and beloved folk devices which greatly assist the performer in entertaining the audience between numbers and adding a bit of the "common touch". Most people only object to it when Bob Dylan does it. ;-) Why? Because they resent his extraordinary degree of success and the fact that he became a legend in his own time. That's my theory.

They would object to it if Joan Baez did it too, but her performances are generally so meticulously well done in every respect that they must find something else to object to instead!

As for harmonica playing, most people set about to slavishly replicate a specific set of well known blues riffs, which they they repeat ad nauseum forever and ever, having arrived at what they would term harmonica virtuosity. Bob, on the other hand, tended to do melody and harmony lines a lot as well as trills and percussive punctuation, and he also did the blues riffs on blues numbers. In other words, he played a lot more "straight harp" than "cross harp". I also play a lot more straight harp than cross harp. I prefer straight harp, and am not too good at cross harp. Bob sometimes played the harmonica very well, sometimes not so well at all, depended on the occasion. When he played it well, he was fecking awesome!

In other words...piss off, you bloody, nitpicking sods. ;-)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:36 PM

While Dylan does not have a great, or even a good, voice, no-one sings Dylan quite like Dylan - although don't ask me to explain. As for his harmonica playing, it fits the songs perfectly. A very rough sound, admittedly; but then I am an old punk, so.....

As for Joan Baez adding harmony, I liked it. It did enhance Dylan's performances. I would rather hear her sing that Peggy Seeger, who has ruined more recordings than even the Jorainairs. Now that is screaching. She then compounds the sin by playing banjo. What did McCall see in her?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:38 PM

That should have been:

I would rather hear her sing THAN Peggy Seeger, who has ruined more recordings than even the JORDANAIRS.

Sorry. Fingers are faster than the brain.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 12:41 PM

"a fascinating document, if only for how willing the folk-left were to subscribe to such celebrity cults no matter how ill-founded."

The folk-left supported people like Dylan and Baez because they were original, good, a bit lefty and their was no folk-right much.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 02:49 PM

Wednesday night/Thursday morning - half past midnight till nearly 3 a.m. - for repeats of the Arena programmes.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:24 PM

Dylan is a great singer. He is moderately ok as a vocalist. IMO.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Trevorr
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:23 PM

anyone know who was singing the Cuckoo on the Sunday night program with the banjo in background???? Many thanks!! (p.s. was it the Cuckoo song?)

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Trevorr
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:29 PM

Re my last message: that was in the 9pm Program: Dylan's Folk: The Pure, The Bad and the holy. Was after the name of the oldish guy who was singing with his mate on the banjo...i'm sure it was the cuckoo song?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Declan
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 07:40 PM

Trevorr,

That was Doc Watson and it was the cuckoo song.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:18 AM

I've always taken it as read that much of the guitar work on Freewheelin' was by session men - Bruce Langhorne on Corrinna is the only one that's fessed up to on the album sleeve, but that rolling harmojcally adventurous stuff on Girl of the North Country - screams 'clever session man' at most people who have played guitar longer than five minutes.

I've never resented this - and I will always be a lifelong devotee of Dylan - guitar, harmonica, songwriter. I don't require him to do all his guitar playing, answer his own phone, make his own breakfast, design his own record sleeve, etc.

All I would say is this. Put the first album on your record player. Close your eyes. Imagine Bob is standing there in the corner, a twenty year old man, and I think you will conclude you are in the presence of genius.

That guy on the early footage of Newport was just bashing his guitar in a very monotous way. Three years later by Aother Side of Bob Dylan there are exquisite little slides in the playing of All I Really Want to Do- he has upped his game. Well done, there was no compulsion to do this as he was an ace songwriter - Kristoferson never bothered to.

So who did all that clever stuff on 1st album, Freight Train Blues, Baby Let Me Follow You Down, In my Time of Dyin'.

To suggest that someone would be able to do all that stuff, and just reined himself is daft. Musicians are too vain for that. If they can play a riff, they tend to let you hear it. Trust me on this one. I've known a lot of musicians.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: GUEST,Scorpio
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 05:10 AM

Dylan learned from those he met - Dave Van Ronk played better guitar than Bob, but Mr. Z was a quick learner. With a basic knowledge of tunings and country blues licks, he could sound good enough to make an individual accompaniment sound impressive. As for the fingerpicking on Girl From The North Country, do you really need a clever session man to repeat a basic fingerpicking pattern in GCD?

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:30 AM

don't sound that basic to me.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:42 AM

Well, Mr Rick Fielding said to me on a number of occasions that Bob Dylan was one hell of a good guitar player, and Rick Fielding was one of the best guitar players I've ever known. Seems to me that Dylan's performances vary a lot from one time to another...hell, I know they do. I've seen him live many a time. It seems to have something to do with what mood he's in...or maybe he's channeling the Spirit of God or something on certain occasions. I don't know. All I know is, sometimes he plays very well, sometimes he plays primitively.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:46 AM

weelittledrummer: I have never followed the ins and outs of Dylan history, I am just a fan basicallly. But this theory that the guitar-playing on the first album wasn't him: now, surely it would have been fairly widely known if that was the case,and why would this information have been suppressed? And by who?I seem to remember reading a couple of books and numerous articles about the talented boy, and I woulkd have thought this infomation would be well-aired publicly by now, if it existed. Can you clarify? I am very intrigued to know who did play this music, if you are right.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:59 AM

I haven't a bleeding clue. However that guy who was playing on the footage of Newport didn't have the Burl Ives Dum-ching together - it was just dum! dum! dum! - only not that regular.

The legend is that the first album recording was so throwaway that he borrowed the top off Suzie Rotollo's lipstick to play the slide parts - not having bothered to bring a slide to the session, or forgot it or something.

okay so he regressed occasionally - he went into the magic doughnut on One Step beyond. If that gives you pleasure - think of it that way. Makes bugger all sense to me though.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Effsee
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 12:07 PM

If you feel like being embarrassed all over again, they are repeating two of the progs tonight on BBC4 - half past midnight!Dylan at the Newport FF followed by Dylan in the Madhouse at 01:50.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 05:10 PM

as far as I am concerned,Dylans best songs are,Blowing in the wind,MrTambourine man,Times are a Changing,Masters of War,Boots of Spanish Leather,some of his other songs are very deriviative if not plagiaristic,Bob Dylans Dream,DontThinkTwice[PaulClayton].
I wouldnt bother to cross the road to see him,I give him 7.

Subject: RE: DYLAN NIGHT - Embarassing Moments
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:34 PM

Dunno, Cap'n. Like A Rolling Stone ain't half bad either...