BS: Obama in Wilmington

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 07:47 PM

I am trying to grasp why any of this matters to anyone... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:58 PM

me, too, LH... Lotta anti-Obama spinsters out there tryin' to make chicken salad outta chicken sh*t...

Like the Clintons, for two... They lost this nomination and now they are so pissed off that they are willing to roll the entire Democratic party under the bus to show the entire friggibn; universe just how entitled they were to another 8 years in the White House???

Fact is stranger than fiction...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:16 PM

How many times does she have to be proved wrong before we all decide her opinions are not worth the pixels they are written on?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:17 PM

It's easy for McCain now. All he has to do to win the election is remember two words: Jeremiah Wright.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:24 PM

I don't mind being predictable, as long as I am being straight with people. You think unpredictability is a virtue? I think that's a really stupid idea.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:44 PM

It's obvious "Jeremiah Wright" is all you'll ever remember, Rig.

But don't bother to give us a song and dance about how that's why you're against Obama. You were against him long before you ever heard of Wright--just trying to find a reason to camouflage your real reason for opposing him.

You're rather transparent, to say the least.

And it's still interesting that your worst foes seem to all be brown- or black-skinned.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:38 PM

If you wonder why a thread gets closed, take a look at it for personal attacks. Politics has never been censored here, just personal attacks. And, those are not caught often enough, imo. It also doesn't help that you all continue to feed the trolls...they get off on it. Starve them out!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

I am neither 'anti-Obama' or a spinster.

As an 'outsider' I would just like to see the most electable candidate win the nomination and put an end to the Bush regime that has so deteriously influenced events in this country too.

It was my personal view that this candidate was Hillary Clinton; that has nothing to do with 'feminism' or the colour of anyone's skin.

The leval of negative campaigning on BOTH sides has been very off-putting looking from this side of the Atlantic.

The open venom expressed in many of the posts here has also been unsettling; the repetitive, continual, almost messianic fervour is only matched by prefacing or substituting support for Obama with blatent attacks or snide comments (like the one that opened this thread and caused me to comment) against Clinton.

As someone who has actively campaigned against racism all my adult life I find some of the responses equally unacceptable.

Today I read an article in The Washington Post which seemed to sum up many of the frustrations I feel.

'The longer the race goes on, however, the more bitter it becomes. Increasing numbers of your supporters say they will never support your competitor. And growing numbers of Democrats, once excited at the prospect of two extraordinary candidates, are turned off by all the negativity. What should you do? Pulling out of the race means giving up your dream -- when you think you are the better choice. Staying in risks collective disaster.

The fault line in this dilemma -- the interests of a candidate pitted against the collective interest of his or her party -- shows up in many economic and political domains and is sometimes called the "tragedy of the commons." Individuals embroiled in similar dilemmas find them impossible to solve on their own, because they are confronted by a Hobson's Choice: Act selfishly and cause collective disaster, or act altruistically and aid someone else who is acting selfishly. Either way, selfishness wins.'

Clinton, Obama and the Narcissist's Tale
by Shankar Vedantam

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM

Ahhhhhh yes... The sky is falling and, BTW, Obama isn't electable...

So why has he recieved more votes is sanctioned primaries than wither McCain or McClinton???

Hmmmmmm??? Me thinks there is some tag-team mischief going one here with 3M (McCian, McClinton, McMedia)....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:23 AM

I read that WP article yesterday, and it struck a chord with me, too.

One thing the article doesn't mention though, are the two surrogate narcissists in this campaign season: Bill Clinton and Jeremiah Wright.

After "sleeping on it" re: the Rev Wright yesterday, the bottom line for me because "what the hell kind of pastor does this to one of their parishioners?"

This campaign just keeps getting more and more distressing.

More and more alarming.

On the Democratic side, we have the Clinton dynasty, and on the other we have the poor judgment of a candidate who decided to play identity politics with the hardcore US identity politics masters, in order to seek and attain his political ambitions. That decision to play identity politics with the south side guys over a decade ago is, sadly, now what is truly "coming home to roost".

Being a veteran of Chicago politics too, I guess all I can say--wearily--is I guess we should have expected as much.

Now southern Dems in tough re-election races are beginning to distance themselves from Obama. Once that starts to happen, the bleeding becomes nearly impossible to stop.

This whole sorry, sordid, narcissist mess will pull the Democratic ticket down in the fall--maybe not in the presidential race, but it sure as hell will have an effect on the balance between the parties in Congress.

But nobody cares. It's all about the presidential horse race.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM

Sorry, above line should have read: "...the bottom line for me became..."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:47 AM

It juts ight be the other way around, Fantz... One thing that has occured over the last few years is that the the Dems have reorganized from the "bottom-up" and have won local races where they didn't use to even run people... The are especially strong in suburban areas that were once Repub strongholds... There are a lot of issues, especially around developement" that has created this situation...

One of the reasons that Virgina, a traditionally red state, has become increasingly blue, is that suburbanites from Chesepeake to Northern Virgina have seen what happens when land use is "de-regulated"... And Virginia isn't alone...

So what we have now is a situation where federally elected folks are getting a boost from local issues...

Howard Dean gets alot of credit as well for spreading DNC $$$ around to more local precincts to re-organize...

But I agree that Obama is dealing with a number of external distarctions but I'd rather see him have to fight them now than later.. This is like the middle rounds of a 15 round title fight and it's a good opportunity for him to learn just how tough things can be... He needs these middle rounds and if they don't kill him he will come out of them tougher than he thought he could ever be... If ghe doesn't survive the McCain/McClinton/McMedia mugging then he will be in much better shape for the '12 campaign...

I really don't care thatr much if McCain wins... No matter what the Dems say about McCain being another 4 more years of Bush it won't be tghat at all... The economy can't withstand 4 more years and McCain ain't stupid... Yes, his trillion dollar tax cuts sound stupid but whomever in sworn in January 20, 2009 is going to have to do some major cleaning up of 8 years of "spend and borrow"... NO way out of it... If Donald D. Duck is elected he's gonna have to make the same hard choices...

This is reality...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM

Funny, I thought this trip was about our experience with Obama.

Emma B. I use the word "Snuck" To describe a trip into town with little advance warning, 18 hours before Obama's announced trip, and I get dumped on for being both racist against Obama and sexist against Hillary? Thanks a lot.

Here is some news for you sanctimonious Hillary clone. THIS IS NOT THE ELECTION this is the Internet. You are not going to turn one vote either way here and you are not going to change the attitudes of the American electorate by pissing on people posting here. Here is some more news. If I say that Hillary "snuck" then I say it because I honestly believe that she snuck. I am sure that she had what she thought were good reasons, not the least of which would be that she didn't want her little outdoor rally filled up with "curiosity seekers" who would not cheer her. But she snuck. Was that "snide" of me to say so? Bugger off, grow up!

You think that Hillary is the best choice? I know that you are wrong. On the one hand, she is running on her experience in the White House, on the other hand when her "experience" is politically inexpedient, she tells us now that all along she disagreed. We have found out that all of her "foreign policy experience" is negated by her lack of security clearance. Without her and her husband having committed treason she could not have known things that wouldn't have been in the papers. Breakfast conversations don't give you experience.

Hillary is risking the election and the destruction of her party for a very low probability of victory in the nomination. After February fifth the Oddsmakers were giving her a 15% chance, now it is up to 22%. In my opinion that is the same type of attitude and behavior that got us into Iraq. I don't want it getting us into Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:50 PM

Moving right along, with regard to Senator Barack Obama's rally in Wilmington, here's a link to a great YouTube clip of that rally:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeBpPjIlaEw
Obama to 82 year old, "Will you be my running mate?"

"Don't hit on Hillary, bring us all back, let her do that stuff. Leave her alone, you don't need to do that, you are higher than that. Bring us up higher than that," Weiss said with 82 years of experience.
Wilmington , NC. April 28, 2008

**

Here's a link to a dailykos diary that provides more information about this exchange that occurred during the Q&A portion of that rally.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/29/12241/0475/54/505397

**

JTS & CarolC, it's great that you both were at that event! Thanks for starting this thread, JTS, and thanks for all the work you two have done and are doing in your area!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:11 PM

From the link provided by Azizi....

'During the question and answer session, an 82-year-old woman encouraged Obama not to attack his opponents'

Perhaps Jack could be encouraged to do the same in these threads.

Well you see Jack it's my 'view' that your choice of 'snuck' was exactly the same insiduous snide putdown as your description of 'her little outdoor rally'

Unlike yourself who 'knows' I am wrong, I don't claim to have absolute truths I merely express my opinions and would welcome adult rational debate rather than being called names and exhorted to 'bugger off' and 'grow up' because I have the temerity to simply disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:55 PM

Ms. Weiss spent several minutes speachifying before asking her question. I couldn't hear what she was saying very well because there was an echo on the mics that were being used for questioners, but from what I could hear, I think she had a lot on the ball.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:08 PM

Emma B, your posts look to me as much like attacks as what you are accusing JtS of doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:14 PM

Carol you are welcome to your 'beliefs' - please permit me to have mine too without name calling and other playground bully comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM

Please show me where I have called you any names, or engaged in any "playground bully comments" against you, Emma B. Or are you now engaging in making personal attacks against me?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:18 PM

As I said way back there...everyone attacks. That's the nature of politics, unfortunately. Some attack a bit more politely than others. The one thing we all have in common is that we don't like being attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM

Well politeness costs nothing and keeps the tone a little more 'civilized' :)

You are correct LH - no one likes being attacked personally for simply stating a preference which just happens to be contrary to someone who has had some kind of 'revelation'

I don't think I said that 'you' had used the bully boy language of the playground Carol but, as you yourself brought JtS into the equation .....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM

I should mention that the reason many Obama supporters want him to not engage in attacks on anyone, including Hillary, is that this is what they have come to expect from him based on prior experience. They expect him to take the higher road and focus on issues instead. That is certainly the case for me. I was very uncomfortable when he was taking little shots at Hillary, saying she looked like she was in her element when she was taking shots at him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM

Emma B, I honestly stated my opinion that your posts in this thread look as much like personal attacks as what you are accusing JtS of doing. You seem to think I am not entitled to an opinion on this matter. Another thing you are accusing others of doing.

You many not be using the same kind of tactic, but attacks come in many forms. Calling him a sexist because of his use of a term he borrowed from Hillary's supporters looks as much like a personal attack as anything he's said to you in response. And it looks to me like you started the personal attacks in this thread. He was talking about Hillary. You were talking about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:55 PM

LOL oh dear - do you use the same prompt cards too?

Carol, read my lips......
I don't like the negative campaigning that has been going on from EITHER side (please don't pretend this is all one sided) and I can recognize snide comments and selective use of language when I read them.

Now I'm not a 'Hillary clone' (although I realize that is a rather nasty insult in some people's lexicon) neither am I an uncritical defender of Obama but, like many people on this side of the Atlantic, I find the sorry spectacle of two Democratic candidates tearing each other apart an extremely unedifying exhibition.

I reserve the right to express a purely personal opinion that I considered Hillary Clinton to be the 'most electable' candidate (please note - NOWHERE did I suggest that Barack Obama was 'unelectable' or make Chicken Little noises!)

Now I understand that that appears to cause some people problems but - live with it eh?
'THIS IS NOT THE ELECTION this is the Internet'

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:08 PM

Yer right, LH... All do attack at some level even in defense...

As for Obama right now??? He is alone in the ring with McCain, McClinton and McMedia so he's a purdy buzy guy right now... I reckon he knows what Custer might have felt...

I think he will survive the onslaught myself but who knows... McMedia is real tricky...

Yo, CarolC,
Keep us informed on his comings and goings in NC... BTW, the P-Vine will be in NC thru next Tuesday for a national azalea convention and visiting the grand-youngins...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: gnu
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

Custer? His marching song was Garryowen. Now it's a music thread, despite the awful screeching of shovels in hard ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:28 PM

Emma, I am not saying that your support for Hillary is a personal attack, or even the fact that you don't like the negative campaigning is a personal attack. I don't like negative campaigning either. I am saying that your comments about JtS look as much like personal attacks to me as anything he has said to you. That is my opinion, and I stand by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: gnu
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:36 PM

Don't stand so close to me. Sting's. Music thread again.

Sorry if my comments are trite. But, I try.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:38 PM

Because you are his wife, of course.

Which also answers the prompt cards question, I believe.

Birds of a feather, as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:41 PM

"Hey, Mr. Custer
I don't wanta go..."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:43 PM

Emma B.

Honesty costs nothing and it is a lot more constructive than pretend politeness and hypocrisy. If you didn't want a fight the first thing you ever said to me wouldn't be calling me snide. You have been a self righteous hypocrite in this thread. You have attacked first. In fact you have acted just like your hero Hillary. That's why I called you a Hillary clone. Her tactics are not working except when Obama responds. Your tactics are irrelevant because the Mudcat is not a political campaign. I'm telling you to bugger off, because there are better topics of conversation than how horrible I am. You obviously do not agree. But I am done with that conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:46 PM

Looks like the personal attacks are coming in swarms now. I'd like to keep the personal attacks out of this thread, myself. But Emma started them, and I think she has the ability to at least stop making them herself. The reason I would like this thread to be free of personal attacks is because both JtS and I wanted this thread to be about the positive experience we had at the Obama rally. It's obviously too late for that, but perhaps if Emma would take responsibility for her own behavior, there would be less negativity on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:48 PM

My last post was in response to someone other than JtS.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:51 PM

Emma B's link

Not a little out door rally.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:57 PM

Carol I have said that you are entitled to what you choose to 'believe' as am I - I have never claimed to 'know' what, or who, is 'wrong'

I also 'believe' I have the right to hold the 'opinion' that many of the repetitive plethora of threads, purporting to support Barack Obama, are actually very thinly disguised attacks on Hillary Clinton and there is more than a little element of 'sexism' present in some of the language used to put down any dissenters to this apparently uncritical adulation.

Note - I did not attribute this to any one individual but you are also entitled to read into my remarks anything you choose.

In addition, please note I have never told anyone to 'bugger off' or 'grow up' however great the temptation on occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:59 PM

No Emma, your chosen method of attack is insidious, malignant, fake politeness and manufactured indignation. Mine is directness and honesty. Now bugger off!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:04 PM

Well, Emma, as a gesture of your good will, perhaps you would like to take that discussion to another thread, maybe one that is about the thing you are complaining about, and leave this thread for the people who want talk in positive terms about the subject of this thread, which is the positive experience JtS and I had at the Obama rally yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:10 PM

'Hillary snuck in to town today (Sunday), according to some of her local blogging supporters, she was trying to steal the thunder from Obama's visit tomorrow. We shall see.'

If this is your idea of 'positive' I will be more than pleased to.

Maybe the content will more accurately reflect the thread title in future?

and btw - my 'indignation' is in no way 'manufactured'

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:50 PM

Actually, other than this thread all the recent threads that have been started have been started by one particular Obama basher...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:48 PM

As he said, he was using that word after he saw Hillary supporters using it in reference to her visit to this town. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this shows me that what you are interested in has nothing whatever to do with positive discourse. Now perhaps you will consider exiting the thread and allowing those of us who really are interested in positive discourse to continue the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

whatever Carol

feel free to enjoy your 'positivity'

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:55 PM

Like I said...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:52 PM

I imagine the "thread closed" sign will go up soon enough. Wouldn't it be better to carry on these personal squabbles in separate threads rather than derail any kind of discussion that might be developing?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM

If we could just keep preachers out of politics, none of this would be happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:56 PM

I agree with you to some extent, Riginslinger. For instance, when pastors publicly endorse candidates, like the ones who have endorsed McCain, for instance, how are their churches able to maintain their tax exempt status?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:32 PM

Oh my, Carol and Jack are at it again. If you can't say something intelligent, say something anyway.

Sorry, Carol, but that is the way it appears to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:24 AM

"If you can't say something intelligent, say something anyway."

Ahem! Okay then, how about this...

If we could just keep penguins out of convents and seminaries, none of this would be happening!

(to paraphrase Riginslinger)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:43 AM

You're entitled to your opinions, Sorcha. I would only point out that it appears to me that you are doing yourself exactly what you are accusing others of doing. Which is something I've come to expect from you over the years.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 12:57 AM

I also find it interesting that people think there is something wrong with JtS and I agreeing with each other from time to time. (People don't seem to notice that we frequently don't agree with each other as well.) But for some reason, agreeing with JtS is considered inappropriate, for no reason other than because he is my husband. I find that to be a profoundly bizarre and perverse kind of attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama in Wilmington
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

Carol, you are right. We shouldn't project onto the two of you that way. In my experience, you are both your own people, and yes, I have seen you hold differing opinions. Mine was a cheap shot in that regard and I apologize. Sorcha's was a cheap shot as well, but you are right, it is what people expect of her. EmmaB, OTOH, is really dead on.

That said, JtS has been so belligerent, unbalanced, and unfair in his defenses of Obama, what on earth did you expect in this thread?

For weeks he and a handful of others have been railing against Clinton in the most unfair and often misogynist of ways, so of course his threads are going to draw fire.

Rant mode off.

Have a nice day.