Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 01 - 09:36 PM

Doug, my point was that if it's justified for soldiers to kill unarmed civilian prisoners in Vietnam to protect himself, it'd be justified for other soldiers to do the same in the town you live, if there was a war on. Agree to the one and you agree to the other, simple as that. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

As you say, bad things happen in war. But in principal at least it is recognised by most countries, including the United States, that there are certain actions which are outlawed, including killing unarmed civilian prisoners whatever the circumstances. In principal...

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 01 - 10:10 PM

McGrath, your point is well taken. And it is exactly on the mark. If one is going to buy into the principle that certain actions are justifiable in the prosecution of war, then one must understand that that applies in all circumstances. And while I don't seek to rationalize it........as you know what my views on war are..........I don't buy into the attacking of Kerry as some are wont to do. If there is any lesson to be learned from this, it is that we must never buy into the "my country right or wrong" line of bullshit again. Kerry did exactly what he was supposed to do in this circumstance. When one is operating in the home turf of a guerrilla force, every person is considered to be the enemy. The fact that they got into a firefight means the mission had gone wrong. These are horrible times, and many among us will live with it for the rest of our time.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:56 PM

The crappy part of this whole thing - it is being thrown at Veterans by journalists whose biggest trauma is dealing with messed up hair from rush hour. What I wish someone would do is to see Viet Nam Veterans for who we are - for the most part successful. The media dotes on the ones who got really messed up and the rest don't count. We went, we fought, we came home and tried to rebuild our lives as best we could. Sometimes against seemingly insurmountable odds. No different than my Dad did after flying 25 missions as a tail gunner in B-17s. He earned the Distinguished Flying Cross. He had nightmares right up to the time he died. Just like me - I was no hero but I still live with those dreams. And I have a good life, earn my own way, Love my beautiful wife very much, dote on my Grand children, and feel very lucky to have survived. If the Gentleman runs for office he certainly has my vote.

Semper Fidelis

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 May 01 - 02:04 AM

Some time or another, a person needs to talk about things, just to get them off his chest and maybe try to find some peace--As it stands right now, it isn't safe to do that, because there are way too many who are eager to point fingers and call names--

It is a great irony that a lot of our people have gone back to Vietnam and found enemy hands extended in friendship, when there are still so many at home who are unwilling to do the same--

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From:
Date: 02 May 01 - 02:44 AM

here is a song the angels gave to me for those who have been through such horrible times.

Woe Betide Us

Woe betide us woe betide us we the weary of the war Is there no one who can guide us who has gone this way before

Woe betide you woe betide you are you wind your upward way There is one who has walked beside you every hour of every day

Joy betide you joy betide you endless miles you bravely trod When you felt so dead inside you journeyed hand in hand with God

(who says..) When I called you then you answered All I asked to give you gave All that you could do you did so All that you could save you saved

There is rest and there is welcome At my table you will dine All your sorrows I will cherish All the work you did was mine..

---- Today, May 1, was lay down your burdens day. So please do even if belatedly. mg

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 02 May 01 - 12:17 PM

Mick, I'm sorry we even have disagreement, but I hope it's professional.

My problem has been the mission creep of many of the special unit operations. I was involved with the planning of the Grenada op and went nuts over the stupid use of the SEALs then, and later in the Panama stupidity of have two SEAL teams tied down trying to secure Noreiga's private jet.

Special units (whether Green Beanies, Super Squids, or Recon Marines) do not take and hold ground. They snoop, poop and vaporize. I did not believe in the Grab or Stab missions then (we were running them in the 'Z) and my long view only confirms it. We develop special ops capability that becomes so specialized, we can almost never use them in the real world. Then, because they start to get rusty due to no "action" to test their skills, we develop actions which are EASILY handed by less special units, commit them to actions which were never comptemplated during the unit-concept planning stages, and wonder why they screw the pooch.

I would ask you to take the time to research the use and history of SEALs in Viet Nam, Grenada, and "Just Cause" in a realistic and detached way, comparing losses and gains and the even more ethereal "perceived gains". Also read "Black Hawk Down" about the Rangers in Somalia. At the conclusion of these actions, I didn't write the medal citations, I wrote the AAR's (After Action Reports) and they were sickening.

Finally, I have to clear up two points from my earlier post. In addition to the carrier pilots, I should have included the Riverine forces, the Chaplains, and God love 'em, the Navy Corpsman which no Marine in his right mind would forget (don't go there... ).

Secondly, in reference to the Medal of Honor. I attempted to write up a young Marine who ended up with one leg off from an RPG, who held his position on a forward ridge LP, and after running out of ammo, ended up killing two armed NVA with ROCKS, yet his medal was down graded because the "Navy hadn't met it's quota, and we (Marines) have too many". I read Kerry's citation; there is no comparison...

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 02 May 01 - 02:17 PM

The retired army Major General who works with me, just showed me the latest issue of Time magazine, 5/7/01 and I quote from the feature article "Ghosts of Viet Nam" (www.time.com):

"During Kerrey's brief, lamentable run for the presidency in 1992, he confounded his handlers with his ambivalence about exploiting what should have been his strongest political asset: his war heroism. Everywhere he went, people thanked him for it. But always, there was an awkwardness in the way he addressed it. In the end, under pressure from his consultants, he mentioned it plenty, but he always seemed to talk around it. Kerrey never mentioned his Bronze Star for Thanh Phong, but he could not escape the glory of his other decoration. He was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, the nation's highest military prize, for his actions in another raid less than a month after Thanh Phong.

That one too went very wrong — information from defectors led Kerrey's squad into a trap. Chastened by the killings in Thanh Phong, Kerrey had decided to take these targets as prisoners. As a result, he told TIME last week, "I think I almost got some of my men killed that night." Instead, in a 90-sec. fire fight, seven V.C. were gunned down — but not before a grenade landed on Kerrey's foot, shattering his leg and wounding his groin, chest and face. Declining morphine for the pain, Kerrey refused to relinquish his command until he had got his men to safety.

The disastrous mission that one SEAL called a "bumbling overf___" was deemed a success by the brass. Ambrose put Kerrey in for a Silver Star, but as the request moved up, senior officers embellished the description and elevated the recommendation. The next year, Kerrey was awarded the Medal of Honor for conspicuous gallantry.

They all knew it was ridiculous, Ambrose told Karen Tumulty, then with the Los Angeles Times, in 1992. "Bob wanted to turn the medal down ... It was just another night out," he said. "We just got hit." Kerrey and the others believed the "honor" was politically motivated: Nixon's unpopular war needed a few more heroes. Kerrey's buddies told him to accept the medal for the sake of all those who had fought and lost more than he had. Kerrey's sister Jessie Rasmussen says he was still struggling with a decision as the family gathered in Washington for the ceremony. But on May 14, 1970, just 10 days after National Guardsmen shot and killed antiwar protesters at Kent State University, Kerrey allowed Nixon to pin the country's highest military honor on his chest. "

I'm sure the Navy brass were VERY good at "embellishing" and "elevating" the award. And the article merely confirms what my keyboard bumbling was trying to say about the misuse of special units.

I have friends whose view of the world is different from mine, and who believe that even if a fake hero was awarded the Medal of Honor, if that person speaks out for peace, then a greater good is achieved. It may be that the young Marine on Mutter's Ridge would never have been the spokesman that the graduate of the University of Nebraska turned out to be. Kerrey certainally won the hearts of the Peace-at-Any-Cost crowd.

But in quieter moments, I think that Marine should have at least had the chance to speak out, no matter how inarticulately, after really winning what Kerry stained. I am, even as a combat vet, in no position to judge Kerrey, but I hope the darkest hole in Hell goes to the hypocrites...

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: InOBU
Date: 02 May 01 - 03:24 PM

Hi Guys
I decided to stay out of this until I saw the 60 min. piece which presented Kerry's side as well as Klann's and the Vietnamese. It was a tragic story, which raises some old questions we who worked in the legal system have faced time and time again. I find I believe Klann, after seeing Kerry, and understand Kerry's reluctance to deal with this painful act of his youth.
The dilema is, how can we continue to bring Nazi criminals to justice, and seek justice against Serbian war criminals, if we do not deal with the possible criminal actions of our soldiers as well.
I would say that the testimony on the show raised enogh question to warrent a hearing. It was certainly what would be described as a prima facie case that an atrocity took place.
What do we say to William Callie, if we do not hold a hearing, - sorry Bill, you where the scape goat for all our sins, and if one waits long enough to be found out, he is exhonerated by time?
I don't know what the sentence should be, if in fact he lined up women and children and killed them. But, as my mother's people were also killed, by a war machine, bent on making targets of civilians, I would reluctantly say, that in order that as a nation, we do not make this part of the way we conduct our selves in war, if in fact he did do this, a price should be paid. Perhaps, if found guilty beyond a resonable doupt, in an enlightend future, he would be sentenced to aid in the removal of the landmines we left in Veit Nam, so that both communities could come together over this, rather than a trial be an open wound.
Finally Doug - many many protesters went to jail. Some of us did not go to Canada, but became - as I did combat photographers, to show our convictions were not born of fear - but rather, a desire not to be put in the possition Mr. Kerry was put in, by a country whoes government did not deserve trust. I would have to say I could only hope McNamara and Kissinger were co-defendants in any trial, but well, I'm an idealist.
Truely, the best to all,
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 May 01 - 09:24 AM

I only have a minute here, so this will be brief. Claymore, I accept your pedigree. Too fucking many people post in these types of threads with no frame of reference. You have made certain we all know that you are a warrior. But I am going to say one thing to you, Brother. HE LOST HIS FUCKING FOOT!! HE MAINTAINED COMMAND UNTIL HIS TEAM WAS SAFE!!! What I hear from you is that old Navy envy that I here out of SOME Marines all the time. We can debate all fucking day about this Navy/Marine bullshit. And I agree that politics get into the fray more often than not. And I really agree that that young Marine deserved a Medal of Honor. But get off that load of shite about Kerry. You, a combat vet, should know better than the rest of these self proclaimed sages, what went on there. You should know that most of us did things that, in the air of 30 years reflection, and in the absence of the terror of the times, don't look very good. Neither did No Gun Ri. And there are others in every single war.

On to your general comments. While I don't disagree with some of your assessment, It is my opinion that you ignore role that lousy intel, usually gathered by non-military sources, plays in those actions. The Grenada operation was a complete goatf**k, and an inappropriate use of the teams. And for what?

We do have an area of agreement. I don't believe the Special Ops groups of today are the same as they were 30 years ago. You captured exactly what the mission should be. Todays specwarriors are, indeed, trained for missions that they will likely never see.

And no, Clay, we don't have a big conflict going. I just believe you are wrong with regard to Bob Kerry. And I believe you are absolutely right about politics getting in the way of that young Marine getting his just recognition. Want to start a campaign to write this wrong? I will do whatever it takes to help you. I MUST get my oversized arse to work.

All the best,

Mick