Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh

Subject: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: Haruo
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 03:58 AM

Two quite distinct-looking Welsh texts (both attributed to William Williams) are given in different sources as the Welsh original of the hymn "Guide me, O thou great Jehovah" (English by Peter Williams). One starts with the stanza

Arglwydd, arwain trwy'r anialwch,
Fi bererin gwael ei wedd,
Nad oes ynof nerth na bywyd
Fel yn gorwedd yn y bedd:
Hollalluog, Hollalluog
|: Ydyw'r Un a'm cwyd i'r lan. :|

while the other is

Wele'n sefyll rhwng y myrtwydd
Wrthddrych teilwng o fy mryd;
Er o'r braidd 'rwy'n Ei adnabod
Ef uwchlaw gwrthrychau'r byd:
Henffych fore!
Caf ei weled fel y mae.

Can any Mudcatters help me figure out what really is the text underlying the English hymn text, and what if anything is the English for the other?

Liland
who suddenly wishes he knew more Welsh

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:46 AM

"Arglwydd, arwain" is the basis of Guide me.

IM sure (and others in the office agree) that it isn't a William Williams Pantycelyn hymn but one by Ann Griffiths (early 19th C.) Beautiful words. And an exceptional story behind their creator. She was considered one of the great mystic poets of Wales and wrote very little down. Much of what we have today was remembered by her maid. I really hate translating (I never get it exactly right!) Who said that poetry is what gets lost in translation? Anyway, a rough attempt

Behold, standing amidst the myrtles
The worthy object of my existence
Although I know scarcely know Him
He transcends all else in this world
Hail the morning
When I shall see Him as He truly is.

... which is a travesty compared to the original. Still, you get a sense of how the words run.

Sian

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: Grab
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 09:22 AM

Of course, you can sing Clementine to the tune as well... :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:39 PM

OK - I'm tryin' ... but I can't make the words fit! I shall open a bottle of wine and see if that helps.

And, Liland, I have a hymn book in front of me now, and Wele'n sefyll was written by Ann Griffiths (1776-1805). You've got a few words wrong...

Wele'n sefyll rhwng y myrtwydd
wrthrych teilwng o'm holl fryd
er mai o ran yr wy'n adnabod
ei fod uwchlaw gwrthrychau'r byd:
Henffych fore
Y caf ei weled fel y mae.

There are another two verses as well. PM me if you'd like.

Sian

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:32 PM

Try this clicky For the William Williams version - including the 2 extra verses

Gareth

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: Haruo
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:50 PM

Well, thank you all three! 'Twarn't I misspelt the Welsh! (My Welsh is limited pretty much to distinguishing Cymru from Cymro from Cymraeg; and recognising "Gwasg Prifysgol Cymru", for that matter, now that I think about it.) The misspelt Welsh was copied directly, electronically from this page (which is part of the same site Graham sends me to for the other text). If there are misspellings perhaps someone who knows what they're talking about ought to notify that site's folk.

My house mouse died last night, which may delay my further response, but I did want to thank you. Even Grab; I agree with sian that Clementine's a bit of a stretch. (Though it's easier to imagine than, say, singing Clementine to the Internationale...)

Liland

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: Burke
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:05 PM

Fits if you repeat "Oh my Darlin'" 3 times as usual. I can think of other 8,7's I'd rather use on the word changes.

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM

Don't forget - there are two dialects of Welsh - the North Wales/S4c/BBC dialect- as spoken North of Brecon and West of Camarthen, and Soputh Welsh. Different spellings, difernt pronouciations.

That is why the South Welsh and the North Walians need Enlish as a common tounge to communicate in.

Secondly - These differences spread over in to religion. If a Welshman was marooned on a desert Island he/she would build two chappels. One is the Chappel he/she goes to, and the other is the Chappel he/she does not go to.

Garydd.

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:59 PM

Oh my Darling
Oh my Darling
Oh my Darling Clementine (Clementine)
Oh my Darling Clementine

Our Morris side sings it like this - I can't convince them that "Deutschland Über Alles" (Austria by Haydn) is a much better fit.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:47 AM

Oh, Gareth, C'mon mun! That old North - South stuff again??? OK - some words, but hardly enough to create some mega-rift! I speak 'West' (more or less) and have no problems with my north-Welsh family, at least language-wise. Communication is a WHOLE other kettle of fish!

But I agree about the Chapels!

In the same vein, apparently Cwm Rhondda (the tune I think we're discussing) was almost left out of the Atodiad (Supplement) to the Methodist hymn book because the 'Committee' thought it had been devalued by too much singing at rugby games! It actually IS in the book because one of the Committee, who was in charge of delivering the copy to the printers, disagreed and put it in at the last minute.

And thanks, Snuffy - I get it now. Once I sorted the Chorus, I realized that I CAN fit the rest! Apologies, Grab! Not, perhaps, one of life's major achievements but still ...

sian

Subject: RE: Help: Guide me, O thou great Jehovah Welsh
From: Trevor
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 06:03 AM

I once did this approach to 'Clementine' at a gig. The audience really got into it, I tutored them in the dynamics(!) and they thoroughly enjoyed giving it loads.

I was followed on stage by a male voice choir, and guess what they sang.....

There was much giggling in the audience - I managed to throw the choir off by Hereford!