BS: A nation founded on injustice?

Subject: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 02:37 PM

It occurs to me to mention (in the context of the injustice of the US health market) that the US constitution appears to have survived only as a result of an injustice and the use of the US army against its own citizens. I speak, of course, of "the Whiskey rebellion", (sort of 1792-ish) in which the US army was used to enforce an unjust tax (one that cost small producers twice as much per barrel as large ones) against its own citizens.

Without that revenue, the adoption by the US of the debts of the renegade states arising from the civil war would have been unfunded and the Union would probably have foundered.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 02:59 PM

How original. And you did it without referring to the 3/5 rule or using the word 'irony'!

Robo: who still respects the Magna Carta even though it kicked the Jews 'off the island'

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 03:11 PM

Hey, RB, I know that historical fiction is not your thing, heaven forfend, but if you change your mind try Davd Liss' "The Whiskey Rebels" about that era.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 03:14 PM

Yes, the 3/5 rule was an injustice too. Your point?

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 03:38 PM

So was the Magna Carta. Your Point?

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 04:11 PM

Well we all know how just the Saxons and the Angles were when they invaded.....and how wonderfully wholesome the monarchs of England have been through the centuries.....

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 04:14 PM

Maybe it's as well that nobody treats the Barons of 1215 as "founding fathers" whose opinions about how things ought to be done, and how the country ought to be run needs to be treated with reverence in current disputes, as a guide to how to act today.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 04:22 PM

History is as history does. We be here now, in spite o' what went doown. Study it, make songs from it, pro or con---whatever.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 04:53 PM

What really pisses me OFF is that chimps don't have the vote yet. THAT's injustice!

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 05:02 PM

there's already too many people what's allowed to vote.
We need to strike quite a few of 'em off the roles. Unfortunately too many of them are already in Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 05:54 PM

"the adoption by the US of the debts of the renegade states arising from the civil war "?? Well, we in the US rarely think of the Revolutionary War as a civil war, but I suppose that a Brit would do so. The US Army was not involved, by the way - the troops that suppressed the Whiskey Rebellion, which was pretty much limited to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and the immediately surrounding area, were all militia. The army itself had a total of about 1,000 men at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 06:17 PM

The American Revolution was in fact a civil war. The population was fairly evenly divided into those who supported the revolt and those who favoured the crown, and vicious reprisals were taken on civilians on both sides of that divide by both sides.

It was also a revolution against the crown.

It was both of those things.

The revolution succeeded. Although the British won the majority of pitched battles in that war, they lost a couple of really decisive ones (Saratoga and Yorktown) and that, along with some very effective help from the French Navy at the time of the Battle of Yorktown lost them the war.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 06:55 PM

Actually, the Whiskey Rebellion was in 1792 and the tax collection was unenforceable -- as the Pennsylvanians knew -- because the roads were damned near non-existent. It was also a tax on the transportation of grain to market (25 bushels of corn are much harder to transport by horse than a couple small barrels of 180 proof whiskey, which would be cut to about 90 proof after sale. A gallon of "raw" whiskey sold, in 1810, for about 25 cents in Newport, Kentucky.) And there was no way to tell the difference between taxable and tax-paid whiskey.

At the end of the US Civil War a tax was again imposed upon whiskey, but then the transportation system was far, far better AND distillers were required to age the stuff in charred barrels -- making "red" whiskey and indicating that the tax had been paid.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 06:57 PM

"What really pisses me OFF is that chimps don't have the vote yet. THAT's injustice!"

The problem is, chimps DO have the vote. They became chimps when they believed promises from either the Republicans OR the Democrats. imo

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:04 PM

errrr... chumps?

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:09 PM

The "American Revolution" is more properly understood as:

The War For Independence. The colonial population was not really divided in half. A rough guestimate it was in thirds: One for Independence, One for the Crown, One didn't really care.

A great many of the Loyalists (to the Crown) wound up losing their property and going to Canada. Canada had at the time a French population and an English administration. Sorting out the new English speaking population among the older French speaking populace had major ramifications which remain with us.

In the above respects there are some parallels with the division of Palestine into Israel, Jordan, and the territories.

There was an American Revolution. It is called The Constitution. In creating a strong civilian executive, three part division of powers, bicameral legislature, incorporating this with a written document with broad rights guaranteed to the people, a true revolutionary format of government was laid down. There was no guarantee that it would survive, and it was a near thing in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:13 PM

Correct - the revolution, not the civil war.

Otherwise, see here: -

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:14 PM

Oops, here http://www.ttb.gov/public_info/whisky_rebellion.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:14 PM

Ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:21 PM

Can't see where the parallel with Israel comes in in relation to the dispute between the colonists in America.

Where there is some parallel is in the fate of the people who had been living there before the colonists turned up and took over.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:31 PM

The Whiskey Rebellion was a reaction, using violent means, against an unjust method of taxation invented by Alexander Hamilton, which unfairly penalized farmers who chose to transport their grain in liquid form to get it to market. But suppressing the use of violent protest was probably a necessary birthing pang. The third President, Jefferson, recogniZing the injustice inherent in the whiskey tax, not only canceled Hamilton's revenue schemes, he canceled ALL internal federal taxes, limiting the national revenue to tariffs on imports and luxuriies. Would his vision had survived!! But he also provided its undoing by hugely multiplying the size of the nation--at three cents an acre, how could he refuse?--even though he knew it would strain the mettle of the Republic for it to grow so large.

It (the Whiskey Rebellion) did not really have any direct connection with the Constitution, I don't believe.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 08:02 PM

"The Whiskey Rebellion
George Washington's Proclamation calling Out The Militia To Occupy the Western Counties of Pennsylvania
As It Appears In the August 11, 1794 issue of Claypoole's Daily Advertiser

Angered by an excise tax imposed on whiskey in 1791 by the federal government, farmers in the western counties of Pennsylvania engaged in a series of attacks on excise agents. The tariff effectively eliminated any profit by the farmers from the sale or barter of an important cash crop, and became the lightning rod for a wide variety of grievances by the settlers of the region against the federal government.

While citizens in the east did not find it difficult to abide by the concept that individual states were "subservient to the country," people west of the mountains were less accepting of decisions made by the central government.

The rebel farmers continued their attacks, rioting in river towns and roughing up tax collectors until the so-called "insurrection" flared into the open in July of 1794 when a federal marshal was attacked in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. Almost at the same time several hundred men attacked the residence of the regional inspector, burning his home, barn and several outbuildings. Pittsburgh was another scene of disorder by enraged mobs.

On August 7, 1794, President Washington issued a proclamation, calling out the militia and ordering the disaffected westerners to return to their homes. Washington's order mobilized an army of approximately 13,000 — as large as the one that had defeated the British — under the command of General Harry Lee, the then-Governor of Virginia and father of Robert E. Lee. Washington himself, in a show of presidential authority, set out at the head of the troops to suppress the uprising.

This was the first use of the Militia Law of 1792 setting a precedent for the use of the militia to "execute the laws of the union, (and) suppress insurrections," asserting the right of the national government to enforce order in one state with troops raised in other states. Even more importantly, it was the first test of power of the new federal government, establishing its primacy in disputes with individual states. In the end, a dozen or so men were arrested, sent to Philadelphia to trial and released after pardons by Washington."


from a google of

whiskey rebellion

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 08:05 PM

McGrath:

The parallel is that Palestinians who were willing to accept living in Israel stayed and live in Israel. They can integrate in Israel in so much as Colonists were willing to integrate into the nascent United States.

The Palestinians who were not are not. Since they are displaced they should stay that way and live in a place like Jordan, which is a valid Palestinian spillway, much as Canada proved to be for Loyalists.

And just as there are Palestinians who want to have a non-Israel in the land that 'was' Palestine, there are issues about non-English speaking Canadians who want to break apart Canada and have their own nation their own way.

These things happen with pretty much any new nation. and the issues can make or break the new nation.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 08:13 PM

Living on the far side of the Alleghenies made it really hard to move any cash crop to market in an age when a muddy trail was the only path. Making grain into whiskey first made transport much easier and less bulky. The injustice was that taxing whiskey only burdened some farmers and not others, hence the riot.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 08:43 PM

Yeah, that's what I said.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 09:16 PM

"One for Independence, One for the Crown, One didn't really care." "In creating a strong civilian executive, three part division of powers..."

Are you trying to correlate something, robo? :)

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 09:35 PM

Robomatic, I believe your 3 way division among the colonials ("One for Independence, One for the Crown, One didn't really care") is quite correct. Good correction on your part.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 10:36 PM

Same thing John Adams said, back a ways.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 11:33 PM

My old daddy made whiskey,
My granddaddy did too,
We ain't paid no whisky tax
Since 1792.

We just lay there by the juniper,
While the moon shines bright,
And watch those jugs a-fillin'
In the pale moonlight.

(from song: "Copper Kettle")

Now this is a music thread!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 11:39 PM

So it is, good Rapaire--my apologies for not reading more closely.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 12:55 AM

The grain farmers in the Allegheny region shipped their wheat down the river on flatboats, Amos--what they couldn't sell, they turned into whiskey.

Incidentally, this event is generally only briefly described in in histories(like most events), and then skewed for the purposes of another overarching point (much in the way our much beloved Mr. Bridge has done here)--for those who are entertained by history, here is an account of The Whiskey Insurrection which rich in detail and local color, and which takes what, at first seems
a ridiculous episode, and illuminates it in a way that both edifies and delights--

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 03:54 AM

The only references to Jews in Magna Carta concerned debts due to them:

10. If one who has borrowed from the Jews any sum, great or small, die before that loan be repaid, the debt shall not bear interest while the heir is under age, of whomsoever he may hold; and if the debt fall into our hands, we will not take anything except the principal sum contained in the bond.

11. And if anyone die indebted to the Jews, his wife shall have her dower and pay nothing of that debt; and if any children of the deceased are left under age, necessaries shall be provided for them in keeping with the holding of the deceased; and out of the residue the debt shall be paid, reserving, however, service due to feudal lords; in like manner let it be done touching debts due to others than Jews.



The Jews were expelled by King Edward I in 1290.

There are no references to whiskey in Magna Carta.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:53 AM

The comparison between the colonists who left the US for Canada and Palestinians who left their homes in what is now Israel would be a little bit more correct if the settlers who left the US did so because they were fleeing for their lives. Is that why they left to go to Canada? The other problem is that the colonists who left for Canada really are more appropriately compared to Israelis of European origin than Palestinians, since both groups are/were interlopers on indigenous peoples' land.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 05:15 AM

However, as hinted at above, Jefferson would not have been president but for the 3/5 rule.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:24 AM

All the American colonists, regardless of their atitude toward British rule, were "interlopers on indigenous peoples' land".

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: kendall
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 07:07 AM

When a country is in debt, as this one was after the revolution, the only way to pay it off is taxes.

Does anyone see a difference between "Tax and spend" Democrats and "Borrow and spend" Republicans? Doug? BB?

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 08:56 AM

Art said it best, also some things are learned from history, some are repeated. No country anywhere on earth is without both dark and light in their past. But that was then this is now.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 12:25 PM

A danger arises when some aspects of and some individuals from some previous period start to be treated as having some exaggerated mythological status. America's "founding fathers" were every bit as liable to get things wrong as their successors.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 02:33 PM

As with all nations that is a true statement. No one is perfect, light and dark in all people. Even founding fathers of any country, mine included.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 02:52 PM

Yes, and all other nations are founded upon justice. England, in particular, was founded upon a bedrock of justice and equality.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 02:57 PM

Can England really be said to have been "founded"? If so, when did that happen?

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 03:51 PM

"England, in particular, was founded upon a bedrock of justice and equality." I don't think too many English people would think that claiming it was was an essential part of their patriotism. That isn't really part of the national myth. If it was even the slightest knowledge of history would undermine it.

That seems to be different from the way that comes across about how many Americans see their history.

I think it's very adroit and encouraging the way Obma has hammered away with that historic phrase about creating "a more perfect union", and used it to try to make Americans see that recognising the injustice of the past, and rejoicing in changes that have removed some of them, can be a foundation of a more mature type of patriotism.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:02 PM

All nations of people attempt to set up a system they regard as "just" and proper. There's nothing unusual about that. They enshrine their ideas about what is just and proper in their laws and their official documents.

When it comes to putting those ideas into practice, however, a number of things can go wrong and often do.

Furthermore, those ideas may make sense to one group of people, but not to another. The laws of a country usually turn out in practice to be more beneficial to the rich and powerful than they are to the poor and powerless.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:05 PM

". . . chimps don't have the vote yet."

What!?? I thought that's what accounted for the Bush administration!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:06 PM

Is there any country in the world not founded on injustice? (Bloodshed is always injustice)

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:12 PM

Stringsinger, human societies are founded on both justice AND injustice. There are continual efforts and sincere intentions happening in both directions, just as there are in the breasts of all living humans. It is the struggle between the two, the struggle between light and darkness, that provides most of the drama and challenge in our lives.

If you can see only one of them occurring in a nation, though, you're missing half the picture.

I agree that bloodshed perpetrated by and on behalf of governments always arises out of (or as a reaction to) some form of injustice.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:16 PM

How many countries in the world have actually been "founded"? Some countries certainly were, like the US, but haven't a lot of countries just sort of emerged over the years? Italy, for instance - was that founded or is it the result of a lengthy process of evolution? Same with England. Was it founded, or did it emerge over time to become the nation that it now is?

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:19 PM

Kendall, They are really the same thing in the end. Presumedly the Republicans will pay interest on their loans and there by make a profit for the lender. The Democrat simply takes a little away from those who have a little. A little adding to a little becomes alot thereby making the Democrat a Republican.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:22 PM

""The War For Independence. The colonial population was not really divided in half. A rough guestimate it was in thirds: One for Independence, One for the Crown, One didn't really care.""


So for all practical purposes, of those who did register a preference, half were for the crown, half for independence.

Can't quite see the difference between that and a 50/50 spread.

Perhaps if you squint a bit, half close your eyes, and look at it from the left............two thirds were not anti crown, and two thirds were not anti independence.......which means,...er...let's see,.....50/50 give or take a zero or two.

It seems to work out about six of one, and half a dozen of the other.

Of course the wimmin didn't get a say.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: A nation founded on injustice?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 04:27 PM

Except for those wimmin who managed to influence their husbands to one extent or another...and I bet there were a fair number of those.