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BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti
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Subject: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Johnny in OKC Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:23 PM As anarchy decends on Port-au-Prince, what has been done to restore the democratically elected government of Haiti? Certainly it isn't the best in the world, but the Aristide government was voted for by the Haitian people, as verified by Jimmy Carter. Later, a simple show of force by the U.S. Navy was enough to quell an incipient revolt by the Haitian Army. Couldn't we be doing something? Are we in favor of democracy, or not? Should we be surprised at a Cuban invasion of Haiti? What of the Dominican Republic, which occupies the eastern half of the island of Hispaniola? Love, Johnny |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Don Firth Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:58 PM Geopolitically, the administration probably considers it negligible. They may be wrong about that. Who knows what may happen in the Caribbean sometime in the near future? But then, there's no oil in Haiti. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Strick Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:52 PM The US has sent Marines to Haiti so often since 1891 I imagine the they have preprinted orders for invading it. We occupied the country from, what, 1915 to 1934? Do you really think our presence will make a difference this time when it never has in the past? Just the other day I saw a post on another forum that assumed our sending 50 Marines to Haiti meant we were preparing to invade the country. He was outraged Bush would invade another defenseless country. Another poster pointed out how Bush lied; here he was embarking on a nation building exercise of his own after all the things he's said against the practice. Neither poster knew that Marines defend every US embassy and that it was perfectly normal to send in reinforcement in this situtaion. First we're reckless and now we're not doing enough. Seems a little like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Walking Eagle Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:36 PM Bush can't seem to figure out what to do when someone else steals his thunder (Aristede). Now the world is focused on some other hot spot. He didn't pre-emptively strike, so the whole matter is right off his radar screen. Hasn't got a clue! Go ahead and flame me! Be the first one to get your jollies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Strick Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:13 PM "Bush can't seem to figure out what to do when someone else steals his thunder (Aristede(sp))." Why flame when when the facts are sufficient? Aristide's forces are being beaten by the rebels and he isn't in position to steal anyone thunder. With the rebels on the outskirts of Port-au-Prince about the only thing you could hope for is a negotiated settlement if you want to avoid a lot of bloodshed. Can you honestly tell me any other leader in the civilized world would be doing anything different? According to the AP: "The international community - led by the United States, France and Canada - has insisted that Haiti's government and opposition reach a political settlement before foreign forces intervene." Are complaining that we haven't abandoning our allies and the international community and just gone to do what we please this time? In the mean time AP reports the US has 2,200 Marines standing by in case they're needed to protect some 20,000 US citizens in the country. That's not inaction, that patience and restraint. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 28 Feb 04 - 05:45 PM Steppin' into this one would be kinda like gettin' involved in a shootout between a couple of rumrunning gangs in Prohibition. Nasty and probably without any possibility of a useful result. Haiti is one big ugly miserable can of worms and it don't sit on a whole heap of oil, does it? And like Walking Eagle said, this one wasn't Bush's idea in the first place. So why would he go there? To defend democracy? Oh, ha! ha! ha! Oook! Oook! (Gasp!) Oh yeaahhhh! Since when has that been the real reason behind any military actions by the USA or any other major or minor power in this world? Military actions, baby, are taken when the one takin' it has something material or political to gain from takin' it...or at least thinks he does. Just like Al Capone and Bugsy Siegel. Same old story. These guys in high places don't get out their hired guns in order to be nice guys...but they do give out a few free turkeys at Christmas and just before election time. Count on it. Chongo |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Johnny in OKC Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:42 PM " about the only thing you could hope for is a negotiated settlement if you want to avoid a lot of bloodshed. " What's wrong with that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Peace Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:48 PM Mogadishu ring any bells here? When the objective is ill-defined, men and women get killed. I do not subscribe to the notion that soldiers/marines are expendable items simply because they entered the armed forces. And sending troops in to establish 'peace' is utter crap. Soldiers are trained to kill and make peace that way. And since when are the Americans the cops of the world? No, think it through first. Then act. Protecting one's citizens and embassies is good. Establishing democracies for others?--I ain't so sure about that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: dianavan Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:26 AM Democracies cannot flourish when literacy rates are low. Can they? Impose democracy? I think not. Protect embassies, yes. Enlist the help of the U.N.? Maybe. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Bobert Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:32 AM Well, as per usual, the Bush foriegn policy is driven by, ahhhh, *whats-left-to-steal-there*... Heck, Bush despises democracy as an annoying little exercise... He's even said, hlaf jokingly, that being a dictator would be a lot easier. Well, in a country with so little in the way of resources and rampant poverty, it's no wonder that Aristide is "outta here". Sure, folks can point out specfics about him but bottom line, without sufficient support from the international community, his administartion was doomed, as will be the next one and the one after that. But Bush has so bungled the US's relationships with the international community that, with so many hot spots in the world these days, the US has tied its own hands behind its back. If for no other reason than this, it is imparative that a new asministartion come yto power in the US becasue the currewnt one is incapable of cleaning up after itself. "A problem cannot be solved with the same consciencness that created it." (Einstien)..... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:04 PM Jean-Bertrand Aristide has resigned and fled the country. Sounds like the place is pretty chaotic right now. Duh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: dianavan Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:29 PM Canadians are being evacuated. The Haitian people are being terrorized. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Tweed Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM Where iz Little Harq? I kin ony hope he got out in time. An' why are Haitian people running Canadians out obv Canada? Iz it on account obv thar huge reservs ob charcoal? I habv probly missed a point somewhar. It is too far fetched even for the BS section. Tweed |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Feb 04 - 03:01 PM I'm in Orillia, as usual. It's our reserves of maple syrup that are the key factor. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Peace Date: 29 Feb 04 - 03:29 PM Ah, man, I haven't had maple syrup in so long . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Greg F. Date: 29 Feb 04 - 06:13 PM And since when are the Americans the cops of the world? Since about 1909, I think, Bruce, with the first of many U.S. Ivasions of Nicaragua. Unless you want to count the earlier 70,000 U.S. troops to the Phillipines 1898-1902. Or the forcible annexation of Hawaii in 1898. Or- well, you get the idea. Phil Ochs had a song as I recall ..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Peace Date: 29 Feb 04 - 06:47 PM I hear you, Greg. I truly wish the UN would form an international 'strike' unit, one that belongs to no country. Citizen of the World type thing. Give it the clout and power to enforce the rules--and that's that. But then , I dream lots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Strick Date: 29 Feb 04 - 06:50 PM "But Bush has so bungled the US's relationships with the international community that, with so many hot spots in the world these days, the US has tied its own hands behind its back." Really? And what gives you the impression that the US policy would be any different under any other administration? Or that the 800 (count 'em, 800) rebels in question are that big an issue when we have 2,200 Marines standing by? How exactly are our hands tied? Perhaps you have a better idea of what to do besides coordinating our efforts with France (who's problem Haiti is under the normal rule that a colonial power is responsible for the problems of it's former colonies -- the US in Liberia, remember?) and Canada? "Since about 1909, I think, Bruce, with the first of many U.S. Ivasions of Nicaragua." So we were stupid once, do we have to stay that way? Remember the "Good Neighbor" Policy started under Hoover and continued under FDR? Is that such a bad idea? Haiti's not a threat to us, our only interest is humanitarian. Why not seek a diplomatic solution? |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Peace Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:43 PM A Partial List http://petra-k.greens.org/s-r/27/27-01a.html http://petra-k.greens.org/s-r/27/27-01a.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Bobert Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:03 PM Yeah, Strick, I do.... If we're gonna preach the virtues of democracy then we're gonna have to be suportive in countries where we have intervened to form such experiements. This ain't *all* about Bush but *lots* about Bush 'cause the Haiti experiement has been unraveling at a furious pace over the last year and the Bush administration has done vitually nothing to support democracy there... How he's gonna go in there and try to reteach "Democracy 101" on the heels of standing by and letting it fail. Well, good luck... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Rapparee Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:11 PM Nope, he didn't. There are several hundred Marines in No. Carolina ready to go. Bush hopes to get UN approval and help. This according to the Associated Press. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Peace Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:22 PM If he's intending to send troops, then I pray 1) that they are given a mission they can accomplish, 2) that the mission parameters are firmly laid out, 3) that they do NOT get caught up in ROE crap. UN stuff led to many messy situations for Canadian 'peacekeepers' under the UN flag in five of the current twelve efforts with which Canadians are presently involved. Sometimes, the UN can't find its own rear end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Peace Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:24 PM PS Welcome back, Rap. Hope the trip was a winner. Bruce M. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Strick Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:24 PM If what you say is so, why did Clinton wait 3 years to restore Aristide the first time? Are my figures right? He was ousted in a coup in 1991 and reinstated by Clinton with the help of 20,000 US Marines, right? Besides, has that first lesson in democracy from the US (or rather, given our history with Haiti, more like the 7th) already failed? The results of legislative elections in 2000 were deemed fraudulent by international monitors and the opposition expected Aristide to steal the next one to stay in power. Exactly what part of a real democracy do you expect to salvage? If this were our first attempt at bringing democracy to Haiti or if Aristide hadn't already discredited the last attempt, I might agree with you. Given what's transpired it sounds like working with the international community to reach a more permanent solution is worth a try. Interesting list, brucie, even if it leaves out a lot of older agressions. So you agree that this "premptive war" thing is hardly new US policy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Peace Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:29 PM Oh, heck, I'm a history buff. My 'cops of the world' statement was rhetorical. However, the US is not alone in the pre-emptive policy stuff. They just have the hammer now. In the past it's been lots of others. That is a way-long list. Haiti has had such a mess for so many years, it seems they get puppets in and out like no tomorrow. As you pointed out above. I hear you. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 01 Mar 04 - 02:04 AM Just heard on the news that the Marines are being sent to Haiti. Does that mean a new thread, 'He sent our boys to Haiti'. Maybe they can do some good, but I would hate to see a repeat of Mogadishu. This time it is with UN approval. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Hrothgar Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:44 AM Is there oil in Haiti? |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:51 AM Heard that theres lots of 'palm' oil used there to get things done (past and present). But I guess that won't be any use to the guys on the ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Greg F. Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:20 AM That's palm GREASE- different compound & works wonders in D.C., too |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:26 AM LOL! |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Bobert Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:28 PM Oh, geeze o' pete! There are reports coming in that Aristide didn't exactly resign and leave on his own accord... There is some evidence that he was kidnapped by the US military and flown to Africa at gun point... Now, I'll let the story unfold as it will over this afternoon and into the future but if this is true then the Bush asministartion is going to have to spend a lot of my tax dollars spinning this one so that Joe 12 Pack will buy it... And, in case I haven't said it lately. I'm getting real tired of hearing the Bush administartion talk about the virtues of democracy. They all could use a refresher course on the subject... Bobert p.s. And prepare yourselves for another round of "Yeah, but______________ (insert boogie man de' joir)was a bad man!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: GUEST Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:41 PM Bobert: you're a riot. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Strick Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:43 PM Bobert's right as usual. Here's an article from Time doing just that. Wait, something's fishy here. The article was published two weeks ago and it seems it's the international community that's calling Aristide a crook. Stolen election, skimming international aid, interesting stuff. Says the international community cut off international aid after the 2000 election. Wow, that Bush is good. Getting them to declare Aristide a bad guy so he doesn't have to and then arranging it so it happens before he gets in office. Amazing. Haity: Should the US go in? |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Don Firth Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:57 PM Doug, it's not Bobert that's the riot (although he can be a pretty funny guy when he wants to), it seems to be Haiti in general. Bobert just posted what's coming across on the news right now. Aristide himself says he was kidnapped by a squad of U. S. Marines, duck-walked to a plane at gun-point, and flown to Africa. People both inside and outside the Bush administration are making accusations right and left, and issuing denials without knowing what they're being accused of. Lotsa heat, no light. At this point, nobody seems to know what's actually going on. You might listen to the news yourself and hold the snide comments until you know something about what's going on. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Strick Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:15 PM Here's the only new report quite like what you say, Don. Aristide Tells U.S. Contacts He Was Abducted The AP and other reports I can find are much more circumspect. "Ken Robinson, CNN national security analyst, said the claims are dubious. 'When he (Aristide) landed in the Central African Republic, he addressed the nation on radio and he made no mention of this,' Robinson said. 'And now all of a sudden he's making late calls in this regard. I think it's pretty specious.'" If anything, the Administration's pretty consistent in denying anything kidnapping. Aristide had asked to go to the US and maybe a bit upset at finding himself in the Central African Republic instead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Bobert Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:42 PM Doug, Na,na,na,na,na.nah...... Awww, jus' funnin' wid ya... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Greg F. Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:51 PM Doug... You might listen to the news yourself and hold the snide comments until you know something about what's going on. Now expecting THAT to happen really IS a riot! |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Deckman Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:10 PM To: "Greg F", you are right, Phil DID write a song. I suspect you are thinking of the song "Power and Glory?" And to Bobert ... I think you have it excatly right. Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Greg F. Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:27 PM Actually,Bob, it was Cops Of The World |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Walking Eagle Date: 02 Mar 04 - 02:28 AM I see Karl Rove's dirty,sticky fingerprints all over on this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Strick Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:45 AM I give up. Why bother with Haiti? They're poor, they're black, they speak French. Why does Karl Rove care? Someone here recently denied thinking Karl Rove was an evil genius, but to be responsible for everything he's been accused of he'd have to be Professor Moriarity's smarter brother. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Bobert Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:49 AM Hmmmmm, Walking Eagle, I was thinking Donnie Runsfeld myself but, hey, yeah, I'm sure Rovie has had his hands in it... I mean like Rovie and the PR team have decided that the only way to stay in power is to keep their "War Preisdent" boy front and center. With Afganistan and Iraq botched and North Korea having a nuclear weapon that could take out 10,000 US service folks in South Korea, Karl looked around for some lesser foes for his boy to play war with and look what he's found! And chances are there won't be as many body bags to keep out of sight and, compared to Iraq, it's cheaper than a bargain basement sales special... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Walking Eagle Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:20 AM Hey you know I'm such a cynic that I can see this little scene right now; Two men meet in a dark little beer joint just outside DC. They sit in a dark corner at an even darker table. Getting the picture? The CIA man passes off a shit load of big bucks to his Al Quaeda contact and says 'You know what this is for.' Then they both slink back into the slimes they crawled out of. Three days later and two weeks before the elections, a huge plane takes out the Golden Gate Bridge, a smaller plane takes out the St. Louis Arch, and a whole series of briefcase bombs levels Constitution Hall. You can pick your own National Monuments, but can't you just see it? The Fourth of July and Memorial Day are the two big National Patriotic Holidays before this years elections. Better duck and cover, boys and girls of the atomic fright days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:22 AM Here is a list of books that detail (among other things) the dirty tricks that Rove et al have been up to over the years of the Bush Dynasty. (Amazon says this list has been read only 52 times--it needs to be read a few million times to be effective!) You have to take Aristide with a big grain of salt--despite his "election," the guy was a dictator enriching himself and his friends at the expense of his nation. . . hmmm. I see a trend here. Takes one to know one? SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Strick Date: 02 Mar 04 - 11:39 AM I'm underwhelmed, Stilly River Sage, conspiracy theories aren't by style. Shall I share a list of books that "prove" FDR facilitated the attack on Pearl Harbor? |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Metchosin Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:11 PM Might as well have a number of perspectives The Republican War on Haiti |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Mar 04 - 01:08 PM Strick, My guess is that it would be a much shorter list, though I have no doubt it exists. I have some fascinating information that allows one to draw a credible conclusion that the U.S. was experimenting on human subjects when they dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki--it's an extremely short list but one I fear is accurate. Some of these lists follow authors down rat holes that end nowhere, others lead to evidence concealed for years. And with the amount that is out there now about Bush and Rove, sometimes it spotlights the writing that is already on that wall. It's up to the reader to decide which. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Don Firth Date: 02 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM Not exactly a conspiracy theory, Strick. One book that doesn't appear on that list, quite probably because it deals with a related but somewhat broader political trend, puts the whole thing into historical perspective: Reaganism and the Death of Representative Democracy by Walter Williams (here). Walter Williams, not to be confused with conservative columnist Walter E. Williams, is professor emeritus at the Daniel J. Evans School of Public Affairs, University of Washington. Good credentials all the way. Williams is no light-weight. Excerpt from a review of Williams' book:Ever since FDR managed to dig the country out of the Depression (and thereby preempted a possible Bolshevik-style revolution in America—we were closer than many people think) by instituting the "alphabet soup" of New Deal programs that put the 25% unemployed back to work (WPA, CCC), clamped regulations on growing monopolies, instituted oversight of the stock market (SEC) to avert crashes like the one in 1929, and started Social Security, a motley collection of reactionaries have been chafing to get these laws, and some of the social programs that still exist, repealed. This was not a conspiracy as such, it was just a lot of teeth-gnashing on the part of a bunch of would-be robber barons and their political puppets who felt that their right to exploit everything and everybody in sight was being abridged. Within recent decades they have managed to get their act together (they're called "neo-conservatives") and their first really big victory was in getting Ronald Reagan elected. Reagan began systematically dismantling a lot of the long-standing innovations that FDR instituted. George Herbert Walker Bush was a disappointment—he wouldn't always do what he was told. Clinton was a disaster, but not totally. And George W. Bush is the Golden Boy. The goal is to establish and expand America's position as the world's only superpower, and to eliminate all social programs and safeguards, thereby allowing the completely free and unfettered practice of Consumer Capitalism in the world (read "unbridled greed"). Conspiracy? No. More like a political movement. No "theory" about it. It's bloody real. If you look beyond the bumper-stickers, T-shirt messages, and 30 second sound bites, it's right out there in the open, where anybody who cares to look can see it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Strick Date: 02 Mar 04 - 02:29 PM "Ever since FDR managed to dig the country out of the Depression" Sorry, WWII brought the US out of the Depression, not FDR. While the nation recovered slightly on a couple of occassions, each time it did another recession came along and wiped out much of the progress. At the beginning of WWII US unemployment was still 16%. The New Deal treated some of the symptoms, but otherwise it was an abject failure. There have been some significant changes in the welfare state and the decline in domestic socialism over the years, but that was a logical correction to problems in the system that were perfectly obvious beyond the bumper-stickers, T-shirt messages, and 30 second sound bites, too. Mostly I see that both sides of the isle cater are the same. They cater to different special interest groups to be sure (well, unless there're contributions to accept), but special interests all the same. All you're describing is a one sided view that ignores the contribution that the other side has made willingly and whole heartedly to where we are today. It's called politics as usual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: He kept Our Boys out of Haiti From: Don Firth Date: 02 Mar 04 - 05:13 PM I don't know where you get your history, Strick, but the Depression was pretty much over by 1937 or 38. I was just a kid, but I was there at the time, and I remember my father's work history and that of our family friends. And since I lived during that era, I've read up on it quite a bit, and related what I read to what I actually remember. To say that FDR got us out of the Depression by getting us into World War II is a canard, and the kind of revisionist history that a lot of right-wingers would like you to believe. The New Deal, part of which was aimed at putting people to work directly rather than waiting for tax cuts to the rich to "trickle down" actually did work. And it would work again, if tried. Part of the purpose of the recent huge tax cuts for the rich was to precipitate the record deficit we now have, allowing the Bush administration to claim that they have to cut all the old "entitlement" social programs, including Social Security (which is not an entitlement program--we paid taxes for it), because the nation can no longer afford them. And just whose fault might that be? Don Firth |
