Women's HearMe?

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:28 AM

Well, I hope you're all happy.

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: BK
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:59 AM

Putting on my professional hat for a moment, this has been an unpleasant little trip into psychopathology. If this thread were a human patient, a discrete discussion w/my psyche consultant would ensue, then possibly a formal psyche consult for the patient to get some help.

BK, who gets a bit worried abt the tone & emotional content of some of these responses. 'n just when I wanted to find out how to get in on what appears to be cyber jam-sessions... This is sad.

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: alison
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 01:08 AM

that would explain why I couldn't get in...

sorry you feel that way Jon.... hearme has been a great way of meeting and hearing people.. it is a shame that you are giving it up......

I don't think there was anything wrong with Harpy's initial suggestion- for a girl's song circle.. any more than there is for a "shanty night", "cowboy songs" etc

I did think the one person concerts ones were a bit weird.. sort of didn't know whether you were welcome to make comments or not......

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:21 AM

Well, good old Jon gave in to our cajoling, and he'll continue to host HearMe for us. Please remember that Jon hosts it at his own Web site, which means that he's got a right to do what he wants to maintain order and fairness. Sometimes, that means he makes decisions others may disagree with, but I know he bends over backwards to be fair. He's been a wonderful host, from both a technical and personal standpoint. Thanks, Jon.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 03:00 AM

Good glad to hear it. Thanks, Jon. I'll try to make it more often and hopefully not get kicked out.

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 08:23 AM

Just to make clarify what I said up there, because I sounded like I was stomping on the floor and thumping tables: I don't have any hard and fast "rules" for myself regarding private sings, and I'm not about to get all snooty about other people enjoying them. My decision to take part depends on whether I feel (based on facts, other peoples comments, and a whole load of personal interpretation) some people are going to feel left out. The decision to go or not to go is based solely on what my own concience tells me.

Jon, your suggestion about the private room was quite reasonable, and I don't see why it was such a big deal. I'm glad you kept your page up - the HearMe sings are something that I and lots of others enjoy a great deal. I appreciate the work you've done. (Brothers and sisters, do I ever - I've improved my singing tremendously because of all I've done in HearMe, and I'm still amazed at being able to listen to songs/tunes from people from all over the globe!) Don't let the grumpies getcha!

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:00 AM

When I have taken part in HearMe there has been nothing but a friendly, supportive welcome from the other participants, regardless of gender. If anyone wants to set up a separate room as well as the song circle room, fine, but I'm happy with the mixed session!
I find it very sad that Jon, and others, have been upset by comments made in this thread, when all that Jon's been trying to do is to help us to share some music together.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:03 AM

I must be losing my eyesight in my dotage, but, I saw nothing wrong with Harpgirls suggestion. I dont feel threatened..should I?

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:22 AM

I don't think there's anything wrong with the suggestion either, but there seems to be a lot of 'baggage' accompanying the reasons behind it, which have caused the problem.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: SDShad
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:33 AM

I agree entirely, Kendall. I think it's a grand idea. I know from experience that most of the real-world song circles or jam sessions I've happened upon have been participated in by far more men than women, often all men. If anything, the HearMe sessions are much more balanced than what I've seen in 3DWorld.

So, I do see as completely valid the impulse to establish a women's song circle, either in meatspace or cyberspace, since so many song circles seem to be men's song circles by default. And as much as I enjoyed joining in singing on HearMe the one time I've had the chance to so far, I also relish the idea of popping in for a HearMe session full of women's voices.

Marvelous idea, harpgirl. I disagree with the way you reacted to Jon, but I'm behind you 100% so far as the basic idea goes. A "well, that feels a little ghettoizing, can we talk about alternate solutions" sort of reaction would have been much more productive than accusing Jon of acting as an agent of the patriarchy. As Joe quite rightly points out, it's Jon's own web page that's setting up all the pointers into HearMe space, so he has some say in how it's put to use. And it kinda seems no-win: if Jon's main HearMe room is scheduled for special, semi-exclusive groups of any kind, some people are going to feel excluded; and if the women's song circle idea is shunted off to a separate room, I can also see why those who want to participate might also feel excluded and ghettoized.

The solution's gotta lie somewhere inbetween. I, being a bear of very small brain, don't have that solution, but I'm thinkin'. I lean towards your approach, harpgirl, keep everything as up front and open as you can, but I can't just ignore Jon's concerns either, and after all, HearMe isn't Jon's, but the website is, and that deserves a little respect. So let's try to work together to make this thing fly rather than getting angry at each other.

HearMe space is free and unexcluding, and actually has nothing to do with Jon, us, our circles, save for his pointers into it. We need those pointers, though, because they are easy to follow for those of us who aren't chat hounds and net geeks and used to this sort of thing all the time. Jon provides such a springboard out of his own generosity and enlightened self-interested, and that needs to be commended.

But I very much hope that you don't let the unhappy tone of some of this thread discourage you from pursuing the idea, because I'm one Y-chromosome type whose ears would be positively tickled by the result. There are several women hereabouts, including you, harpgirl, whom it hasn't yet been my privilege to hear play and/or sing. I can't think of a cooler way to hear 'em than your idea.

Chris

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: SDShad
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:36 AM

Oh, and since I meant to say this in that post but didn't find my way back to it:

Thanks, Jon, for creating and maintaining the HearMe page for us all to use, and for putting up with the hassles that inevitably arise around any public resource; it's one of the shining jewels in the Mudcat crown, and an immeasurable boon to us all. I'm glad you've decided to keep it going.

Chris

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: bbelle
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:14 AM

There y'll go again, assuming something of which you have no idea. You assume that harpgirl has "baggage" issues and that's the reason she wants to have a women's hearme, instead of assuming her intention was simply to get a group of like-minded women together to exchange ideas. Gosh, from reading the above, I could assume that it is Amerigin and Shambles who are toting around baggage. But it wouldn't be right for me to say that because I don't know them at all and my statement would be pure assumption ... moonchild

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:09 AM

We all have baggage, MC. It pushes our buttons and makes our knees jerk. It makes us who we are and can contol us unless we decide to not let it. Sometimes it makes us write pompous philosophical statements, and... oops.

I'm ignoring any further arguments about who is the biggest weenie. Someone may really be enjoying this silliness, or have an interest in continuing it, but it ain't me. At least not unless there's any really good swearing in it, or creative name-calling. Silly's one thing, really silly is something completely different.

(No, after an initial baggage-related reaction, I am not taking this seriously.)

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:20 AM

All getting a bit heavy here. How about we have a mime HearMe?

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:40 AM

Thanks for kind comments and I'm sorry I lost my temper. This whole business runs far deeper fo me than this thread and it goes back to trying to help organise and indeed found folk clubs and sessions in my area. Evenually after nearly 20 years, I got so fed up with the rows and the politics that I gave up and swore that I would never get involved on that sort of thing before.

One thing I must clarify there in view of Joe Offers comments is that in this instance (apart from my action in temper) at no point did I make any descision as to where this ladies event should take place. I merey tried to suggest that a different location is more appropriate for ANY event that excludes certain people to avoid any possible dissruption to the "normal open heame".

As I have stated before, as far as possible, I do not set rules for the usage of my page (the only exceptions would be cases of severe abuse) and it is basicily up to Mudcatters to work out how to get the best of it if they wish to.

I would however like to make this request:

That the main room is kept available at all times as an open venue for everybody to be able to paticipate in at any time.

If anybody wishes to use my page to host an event that has participation rules that exclude certain people (this could even include a banjo players only session/ workshop..) That a private room is created for the purpose. In this case, it is entirely up to the organiser of the event to publish the location in whatever way they wish (by email or as a thread in hearme) and has full control over that room.

This is in no way pushing anything underground as the organiser can make eveybody here aware of what is going on if they wish to. It merely keeps the main room available and open to all at any time which was the original intention, while allowing other events to be hosted.

I'm sorry if this does seem unreasonable to some but I remain convinced that this is the fairest solution for all.

Finally, as I have offered before, I am willing to add extra special purpose rooms on my site if anybody requires. Also, if anybody requires, I am quite willing to help anybody set up there own site and if it of any use to anybody, feel free to copy my HTML source.

Jon

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:53 PM

So where does one find the infor necessary to set up a HEARME of thier website?

I'd love to host one with all kinds of theme nights and such... different music styles ect ect...

I can't believe this great suggestion lead to THIS thread...

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 01:11 PM

Clinton, I am suggesting that the two events can run side by side not knocking the suggestion which I in fact think is a good idea. If you wish to play host for this or any other Hearme event, go to http://www.hearme.com/products/voicecreator/. I know you are competent with html so you should find it easy to set up.

Jon

(still mystified as to why suggesing a means where 2 or more events can run happily side by side is viewed as sexist ,etc).

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:07 PM

thanks Jon, fer the url!

{~`

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:09 PM

I've started working on a HearMe site on my webpage for the "Ladies Night Out" session. So now everyone can pick on ME and leave Jon out of the fight.

I just want to add my thanks here to Jon for all the great evenings that I've had on HearMe. I hope you'll consider your hands washed of this problem now, Jon.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:27 PM

Thanks Aine, I do. The only thing I will say is that the only problem I had with the event was that it was slightly more exclusive i.e. rules who can sing and who can't, and that I felt it would be better located elsewhere and suggested a means of allowing this to happen while keeping the other room free for all.

Your actions and perhaps Clinton's have in fact done exactly what I proposed, ie offered a perhaps more suitable location for a specific type of event. I just hope that you don't get accused of being sexist or wanting control for adopting what was to me a very sensible approach.

Jon

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: KT
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:30 PM

I've been a silent observer in this thread up 'til now. So far, I've been unable to participate in the HEARME sessions since I am a Mac user, but have followed with interest, the responses of others to their participation in it. Seems to me to be a great thing and I do look forward to the day it becomes available in MAC format. Having no history with it, and from an observer's point of view, it seems that the original suggestion to have a women's session was a good one, with no ill intent toward exclusivity, and eagerly received by many. I also think that Jon's suggestions were well intended, well stated, and exhibited a sense of fairness and vision, anticipating future as well as current needs for private and open sessions. I think Jon has been gracious and generous in his willingness to try to assist everyone. It's nice to witness gracious and generous spirits at the MUDCAT. Isn't that what brought us all here in the first place?

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 05:34 PM

Lemme clear up.. I just wanna add Hearme to my site to use as I care to... it really has nothing to do with the above thread....

But I'd be willing to host such theme nights once I get it set up if folks want... But I'm not really planning on moderating them....

Play nice, and stay cool folks!

{~`

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Terry K
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 05:49 PM

I think harpgirl perhaps did not understand how the Song Circle room works, i.e. that Jon has provided it through his selfless interest in promoting Mudcat things in general.

She certainly sems not to have understood the extremely sensible and extremely polite suggestion that it could be held in another room, generated directly from Jon's facility.

Misunderstandings are OK - we all commit them all the time - but the way harpgirl threw her toys out of the pram was uncalled for and Jon's kneejerk was a lot more controlled than mine would have been!

Incidentally, anyone seen harpgirl since 09.38 yesterday?

Terry

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:03 PM

Still, I really would like to hear a women's HearMe - so I could just sit back and listen, for a change. For a while last night, Alison and I were the only ones with microphones, so it turned into a Joe-and-Alison concert. I'm sure there are lots of singers in the early hours, but I can't get myself motivated to join HearMe when the sun is still shining here in California.
And I really wish somebody would make a field trip and install a microphone on Night Owl's computer. Night Owl types notes to try to get me to laugh while I'm singing, and I think it's high time for me to get my revenge...(chuckle)
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:04 PM

You know, I have been around here a long time and I have seen some crazy shite, but this takes the cake. How the hell do two otherwise reasonable people get off on such crazy tracks. Talk about hooking familiar feelings..........LIGHTEN UP. Harpgirl came up with a very good idea. Super. I think that is marvelous. I am completely agreeable to following the rules she lays out, not that she needs that from me. Jon stated a reasonable way to do it ON HIS PAGE THAT HE MAINTAINS FOR US. He wasn't trying to control shit, just expressing that a separate room be set up under whatever guidelines Harpgirl wants. He simply was stating that IN HIS ROOM, he would prefer no exclusion, but had no objections to others setting up rooms. Harpgirl, if that is not acceptable, set up a page of your own and assume the pain in the arse of maintaining it. But, Jon never attempted once to assert control.

To those of you who attacked Harpgirl on the merits of her idea, I would suggest you have issues that you need to deal with. If you were to go and read the thread in the manner of a disinterested observer, you would see an awful lot of agendizing and stretching going on. Cut it out. It isn't the way of our town.

Go for it Harpy.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:25 PM

Big Mick, if that last bit was aimed at me, I did not attack her on the merits of her idea. My first comment was a joke. So was my second comment. Then I read some of her attacks at Jon and started posting my spiel. Personally, I liked the idea and would like to go toone just to listen (if by chance I could make it without being disconnected). I just didn't much care for the reasoning behind it.

Amergin

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:27 PM

It is an issue of principle not one of gender.

One of the main attractions of The Mudcat is that it NOT exclusive. The first and especially the third posts to this thread make it quite clear what was being suggested. It was to EXCLUDE some people from participation. Whether there is any ""ill will" about such a suggestion seems to depend on if your sympathies lie with those being excluded or those being included.?

I would have felt just as strongly about the suggestion to exclude females from a session. But I suspect my voice would have be lost in the multitude of objections and accusations?

Surely it does not hurt to provoke further thinking on ideas that appear on the surface to be 'obvious solutions'? Once you start precedents it can be hard to deal with future suggestions. If you accept the suggestion to exclude men from a session, how could you then justify an objection to a call for a session that excluded certain racial groupings?

Is it not better just to accept the general principle of being inclusive and live with the downside of that?

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:30 PM

Amergin, it wasn't aimed at you specifically. There is plenty of blame to go around. I just read through the thread and saw so much horsepucky and personal crap that I felt compelled to say so. I reiterate. (1) It is a great idea and has much merit. I can't wait to sit and listen to the talented women of this forum do their thing. (2) Jon deserves an apology. He did nothing wrong and was quite reasonable. (3) What I saw in this thread is not the way of the Mudcat.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: harpgirl
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:38 PM

...Jon, get me a drink! I'll have vinegar and water!!!

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 07:03 PM

Harpgirl, I a have no idea what "I'll have vinegar and water means" but I'd rather buy you a pint of Guiness (or whatever you may drink) and be friends than have you drink that if you are willing.

Jon

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: harpgirl
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM

sorry Jon...the women may get this joke! But I'll take the Guiness!

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:19 PM

Hurrah!

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:36 PM

Well, I gotta' say this is some amazin' shit here.............

Glad I missed this one.......When you sit and read it from a "distance" as I've just done, you realize how 'community-like' this damn place really is. We can all describe similar 3-D events that went the same way and eventually worked out. You can't tell exactly where the first explosion occured, but something went boom somewhere, but it seems to be working out in the end (let's not make that too literal).

Gawd, I love this place and its been a long 10 days..............(yeah, I know...not long enough for some of you)

Spaw

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:02 PM

To paraphrase dear Ebbie -- Huzzah! Glad to see you 'Catters "burying the bones", as it were.

I'd just like to tell you all about how this whole brouhaha has turned into something very positive. I've just arrived home from a meeting of my local Conradh na Gaeilge (Gaelic League), and I told them about the HearMe software and how it was being used by us Mudcatters.

I placed a suggestion before the membership that the Conradh could use HearMe for Irish language lessons, private officer meetings, and general Irish language or cultural get-togethers for our organization.

Well, I have to tell you that this idea just catapulted off into the stratosphere! We now have plans on the table to connect Irish language teaching organizations from Dallas, Austin, and Houston here in Texas, New York City, Chicago, and Minnesota in the U.S. and Counties Limerick, Cork, and Donegal in Ireland in world-wide Irish lessons on HearMe!

Some of you may realize how wonderful this is, and for others let me just tell you this could be a substantial development in the spreading of the Irish language. And the apple never would have fallen on my head if it hadn't been for this thread.

Thank you so much, Jon and harpgirl, for stirring whatever wee "grey cells" I have in my brain. Even though much of this thread was acrimonious, I see now how much of a "family" we really are. And also, how one pebble tossed into the pond can create uncountable ripples.

I don't know how things will work for the Conradh and our HearMe lessons; but, I do know that the ball started rolling here on the Mudcat, whether it was with a whimper or a bang, and I cannot thank you all enough for that.

I think I have to go have a good cry now. Here's a virtual toast with my virtual Guinness to all of you, especially Jon and harpgirl. Long may the Mudcat live and inspire others to go forth and CREATE!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: SDShad
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM

harpgirl, that's disgusting! :-) I'll definitely buy you a Guinness should we meet!

Shad

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:08 AM

Vinegar, even watered down will spoil the lovely taste of that Guiness.

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Spider Tom
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:07 AM

What a lively thread this is as it weaves a tangled web.
I listen well to whoever wants to sing and will gladly hold my tongue if anyone feels they need the time or space
I am a little pushy I know.
I have written songs with women in.
Should they be included or excluded, am I invadeing some territory that I am forbidden from?
I try to touch the female side of my brain at times and have likewise slaped my own face for doing so.
How easy a little suggestion will get out of hand.
We had a autoharp hearme, and guess what?
I SNUCK ON!
I am sure that such a friendly bunch as you all are would allow the same if a poor desperate fellow felt the need to dive in amongst the ladys, Indeed I would and might have trouble keeping my tongue still, but then dosen't art imitate life?
Love you all, stop slapping each other and sing.
I love this hearme thing.
Spider Sally

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:10 AM

Dive in any time, my dearest Spider Tom!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 03:07 AM

Vinegar and water!

TOO FUNNY!

And then what? Ride horseback?? Play tennis?? Swim?? Leap over garden fences in your best white pants?

Ya slay me, harpgirl!

LOL!!!

{~`

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:42 AM

HearMes for separate languages? Now that's a great idea. Seriously, since otherwise someone's going to think I'm being sarcastic, and there's been too much misunderstanding and bottle-throwing around on this thread...

But, for example, I'm thinking of a small refugee family living in a town where virtually no-one can speak their language. (And in the turmoil of the modern world, situations like that are not that uncommon.) So, as the technology gets more developed and more accessible and easier to use, things like language HearMe's could really change the world for people like this.

(I read somewhere that in some cultures there are different languages for men and women. Probably not a good idea... Though there are times when we seem to hover perilously on the edge of it...)

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:04 AM

Only if you drink it Jed

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:23 AM

McGrath, This site seems to offer channels for a number of different languages but I have no idea what they are like although, the odds are that being internet wide rooms, they will suffer from abusive users.

BTW, any internet wide room can be accessed from my page using the make a room option as any room name preceded by # has this scope. As an example, creating a room called #Adults will get you to the same room as entering the predefinded Adults option on my page.

Jon

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:33 AM

Shambles, hiya, long time no type!!

I really, truly appreciate your concern for keeping things politically correct, because that's what Mudcat is about: trying not to step on people's toes - any people, all kinds of people.

But, the way I see it is that:

1) women often don't participate as much as men in sessions - it's harder for me, I know, to break into sessions when I see other people who appear to be much more confident and comfortable with themselves and their capabilities than I am - musically speaking. Women's sessions seem easier to participate in - to me.

2) we all of us do have different ways of looking at the world based on who we are and it's very nice, very easy on the mind, the heart and the soul to express ourselves to other like minded souls without feeling the need to *explain*. It's like laughing at the same jokes without having to deconstruct the punchline for someone else just so they will get the joke. (I have to admit - I haven't got the "vinegar & water" reference yet, harpgirl. Do I really want to?? BG).

I have always said to my hubby that he should have blokes nights - cards, drinking, talking, the usual stuff - and I make sure that I don't butt in on them at all. He needs his space, he needs to be able to just be himself, and one of the ways that blokes "be" themselves is to be with other blokes. He also has social *connections* (times when he connects without having to explain himself, i.e. be *conscious* of himself) when he is with other computer technician people. They talk about amps, volts, chips, cards, motherboards, circuits, what-all, for hours and they don't have to stop and explain it, they just *are*.

That's what I liked about Shula's Women's Song Circle. It didn't exclude men, because there were men all around us, but it allowed us to contribute, share, just "be" - without having to be conscious of ourselves, without having to explain ourselves, without having to feel different. We just "were" for the time of that wonderful, long, on-going session.

Luv-ya Helen

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: SDShad
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:16 AM

Helen--

Visualize the vinegar and water in a clear plastic bulb of some sort, with a pointed appendage through which the solution can be expressed. Probably would be handy for drinking fluids on the space shuttle, but....

Married, so I know of such things,

Shad

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 11:23 AM

Damn, I must get a mic for my computer, so I can join some of you for a sing song sometime!!

And try to be about when someone else wants to sing...

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:10 PM

Helen thank you for taking the trouble to address some of the points made. Being looked upon as a both a guardian of political correctness and being accused of being sexist must say something about the strange nature of this thread?

1. My wife's view is the same as yours but I think the perception of other people being more confident, in sessions and in life, is a myth, whatever their sex. You would probably see me and think that I was confident but you would be very wrong. Sessions are a minefield for everyone. I do see men in sessions being more considerate to women musicians they would to other men. I would be surprised if that was not the case on HearMe but maybe the fact that you can only see a name and hear a voice makes this more difficult?…………There are many problems in sessions. These 'cybersessions' are a new thing so there are bound to be initial problems. Maybe a thread to discuss some solutions to the problems would be a good idea and maybe better than starting a bad precedent?

2 I do see the need. It is not however the same for all of us. Single sex groupings are a 'horror' for some. What you are describing is an indulgence, like eating a fresh cream cake or ice cream. This kind of self-indulgence does little harm to anyone but yourself.

If your indulgence is to be surrounded by only the people you want, then invite those people. Who would you hurt? You would not place a public notice in the local paper so that everyone else would know that they were not required. You would not use the same venue where you were used to having open sessions and have to explain to those turning up expecting to play, that they could not.

The Mudcat has been through some storms since the 'Song Circle Thread'. It may explain the different reception to this suggestion and maybe there were other reasons too?

If my indulgence were to surround myself with racists and have a thread devoted to these people, exclude everyone else from posting and wanted to have an HearMe session to sing inflammatory songs and excluded anyone else from participating. How could you voice an objection to this, if these exclusive female only threads and sessions were generally accepted?

I know I am exaggerating and playing 'devil's advocate. All I ask is to think it through.

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 02:01 PM

Can't say I see the analogy as being that pertinent, Shambles.

(And to be pedantic, that's not what Devil's Advocate really means. The role of the person colloquially referred as a Devcil's Advocate is as part of the canonisation process in the Catholic church - the role being to search out any flaws and faults in the character or life of the person in question, and make sure these aren't hidden or ignored.)

As I see, if a set of people are collectively weak, they have every right to get together separately if it helps them to get stronger. If a set of people are collectively strong, getting together to preserve or increase their strengthis in no way equivalent.

Of course, strength and weakness of this sort are not fixed in stone, and they aren't homogenous throughot Society. And there are lots of reasons for people getting together which have no direct link with that issues of power.

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: BlueJay
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 02:11 PM

I've been lurking, as I've only been to one HearMe. I'm either always working or sleeping at the time. The one Hear me I listened to, with technical problems, was the "Autoharp" HearMe awhile back.
That's exclusionary, to me. Funny, I didn't hear any howls of protest, like "why are mandolinoleums excluded"? Or "what about us banjumanjis"? The feeling I got was that anyone was welcome. Had a mandolin player had a different take on a song,I'm sure that would have been most welcome.
The Mudcat Cafe by definition is exclusionary. Nothing wrong with that. Rocket scientists aren't going to find much here, unless they also like traditional music.

My take is this: Ladies, have the HearMe. I'll be listening, if possible. In fact I'm looking forward to it.

Jon Freeman- I nominate you for Secretary of Patience in the new Mudcat Party, in honor of your diplomacy throughout this thread. And your perseverance in getting your message to us. I agree- most topical HearMe's should be on a side page. But I think the Women's HearMe deserves an exception to policy. I think it's now grown to the point that it deserves the entire site for a night.
Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 02:30 PM

BlueJay, at the time of the autoharp session, I only had one room and it way a matter of that idea getting the vote. I changed my page to allow other rooms as a result of a thread in which Harpgirl suggested that Mbo had been hogging the mike and the discussion that followed. The main reason for the change was to make sure that people had somewhere else to go if they were not happy with the main room at any time.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have made a request regarding the usage of my page but ultimately it is majority rule not my rule. If the majority feels that the women's Hearme should take place in the main room on my page, although my vote goes the other way, so be it.

As regards whether women get less of a chance than the men during the regular Hearme session. I have not observed any difference and it seems to be a personality thing rather than a sex thing. Oddly enough when the session needs a little pushing to get things moving, 2 out the 3 most likely to "crack the whip" are female (Alison and kat).

Oh and Blue Jay, I'm not sure about the patience award. I have a foul and short temper which although I normally manage to keep under control, lost completely in this thread.

Jon

Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: BK
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM

Ya did great, Jon - & yer still doin' great!!

Cheers, BK