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BS: God balances the books
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Subject: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM ...or maybe God is just paying more attention. You know how it goes when there is a terrible plane crash and one lone survivor staggers out, proclaiming "God was with me!"? Well, this time most everyone survived...which is good. "A Boeing 737 jetliner carrying 131 people crashed in a thunderstorm and broke apart as it slid onto the runway on a Caribbean island on Monday. The region's governor said it was a miracle that only one person died." "...Survival was "a miracle of God. Thanks to God we are alive," Ramirez said, though his wife suffered a dislocated shoulder." Draw your own conclusions about how much 'holy intervention' was involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: gnu Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM If He was paying attention, why did lightning hit the plane? Did he wanna bring that one passenger "home"? Awful incovenience to everyone else innit? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Arthur_itus Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM Quote Draw your own conclusions about how much 'holy intervention' was involved. Unquote None |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:05 PM Why do you keep beating this poor dead horse, Bill? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: gnu Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:16 PM LH... Bill has been beating horses? I don't remember seeing that. You should report him to the SPCH. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: 3refs Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM "one cannot believe a miracle occurred if one had already drawn a conclusion in one's mind that miracles are not possible" |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:28 PM I would report him, gnu, but I doubt it would do any good. ;-) "A miracle" is just an expression for an unusual occurence that astounds people because they really did not expect it to happen that way. It's useless arguing over stuff like that and trying to invalidate another person's way of expressing their shock, surprise or relief over some incident. You won't change anyone by doing it, and it won't prove you're smarter than they are either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:39 PM They do think that the passenger who died had a heart attack rather than dying from an injury. Perhaps this accident was put on in order to force that man to "come home"? :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:01 PM There's a cool theory. ;-) Where is "home" anyway? Does anyone know for sure? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:02 PM Another approach on miracles: In G.B. Shaw's "St. Joan", there's a bishop (who is one of the villains of the piece, if I remember correctly), who is speaking with some other cleric. He mentions that Joan has done a miracle. The other cleric is surprised to hear him say that, since neither of them believes that she's sent by God or angels or the Virgin. And the bishop says words pretty much like this: "A miracle is an event that creates faith." His point being that actual divine intervention is not necessary (if it ever happens); that an event that has the appearance of divine intervention in the public eye is the miracle, whatever its cause. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:07 PM That's really an interesting view of it, Dave. I've seen a couple of things in my life that certainly seemed miraculous, and did they creat faith (in something, but I won't say what)? Definitely. I've had faith ever since in the particular matters that were touched on in those specific incidents. Nothing convinces as solidly as direct experience does. Sure beats reading ancient holy books or taking the word of some religious authority or another... ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:11 PM I think G.B. Shaw had a lot of insight. and I won't bother to make a list of how many types of expired equines YOU beat, Little Hawk.. ;>) "one cannot believe a miracle occurred unless one had already drawn a conclusion in one's mind that miracles are |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Tangledwood Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:26 PM Why do aircraft designers spend so much on developing safety features if divine intervention is the only factor in accident survival? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM Why? I suspect many would answer, "God helps them who help themselves." Not a bad answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:30 PM There seems to always be quite a lot of time on these threads either trying to convince yourself or others in the non existence of God. Yet I see not one who believes in such, trying over and over to convince you that such things do exists ... exactly the thing that so many people hate is the fundamentalist trying to tell everyone they are going to hell. I submit equally as bad is the atheist who keep trying to tell the religious they are Not going to hell. Perhaps a better approach is to let people believe as they wish and stop trying to jam your views onto others as aggressively as the TV preachers try to do with their belief system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Smokey. Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:37 PM Any decent god would have intervened before the crash. I move for a vote of 'no confidence' and the election of a new God by democratic process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:40 PM I don't think it works that way Smokey ... However your no confidence vote is so noted LOL ... And can't pretend I understand the plan ... but it if worked that way ... then I would have to join you .. but I don't think it does .. that was a good one |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Beer Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:43 PM A member here years back stated the following on one of the "religious threads" "I don't let any human being dictate to me my spirit path". I thought this to be a great answer and have never forgot it. I wonder if God will balance the book on this priest. ad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S0sx1cmSck |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:51 PM Hey Beer I bet in an open ring ... she would KO him in the 2nd round ... he sucker punched but I bet she could take him in a straight up fight |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: jacqui.c Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:57 PM I'm with you Dan - I have my own belief system, which I will explain to those who are interested, but as far as I'm concerned. everyone is entitled to their own beliefs - so long as they don't expect me live accept or to live by them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: romanyman Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:16 PM i died tice, divine intervention ? nah a good medical team is all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Beer Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM I thought I would throw that clip in Dan to lighten up the subject a bit. For everyone knows it can become heavy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:20 PM I had a nun in grade school beer. I tell you even with several black belts and all the other hand to hand training I have even today ... she would be able to whoop my arse I am sure ... LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: maeve Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:37 PM I'm glad of that good medical team, romanyman. maeve |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Beer Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:08 PM That is amazing romanyman. Did you come back a different person? Just kidding of course. You had them to Dan!!. Yep!, A thread on that subject would be interesting but could also be/turn hurtful. Ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM "There seems to always be quite a lot of time on these threads either trying to convince yourself or others in the non existence of God...."etc You know, Dan...what I see, and what concerns me, ...and why I started the thread...is the extremely common view voiced by those commenting on this disaster...and on other disasters, that 'God' does involve himself directly and 'save' or 'not save' individuals in such situations. *IF* you believe a supreme being is controlling what happens in minute detail, this belief will inevitably affect what you believe about your own responsibility for your own life and the lives of others. We DO have fundamentalist preachers actually pounding on pulpits telling their flocks that "God wreaked vengeance on this person or that group.." for some fault or transgression. (Did anyone besides me read how New Orleans was blamed for its own flooding, due to its 'sins'?) This sort of thing happens almost daily about something, but it's only when some well-known preacher says it regarding some high-profile event that we go *tsk-tsk*. I noted this 'relatively' silly plane crash event because it represents a mind-set that can easily become a serious matter when some major event happens like 9/11...or huge tragedy like a tidal wave...or conflict like the current vindictiveness being shown to ALL Muslims over this Mosque in New York..(not really a Mosque). If one is already 'primed' to believe in divine intervention over a plane crash, they are also more likely to 'believe' when some dubious authority figure tells them that 'God' wants 'X' person or 'Y' group to be persecuted. It is not that I want to try to convince people to give up their religious beliefs.... I merely hope that people will stop and consider the REAL implication of certain attitudes and reasoning....that may even NOT be a part of their church's belief system! It does not require becoming an atheist to reflect on what what really is at work in plane crashes and simply be pleased in good fortune at surviving a tragedy. I do not wish to insult anyone's religion, even if I do not share it....but I DO wish that education and churches could work together to help people improve thinking about what their religion is really about and what it...and their God... can and cannot do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Beer Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:01 PM Bill D, I like what you said and now see a person of openness to reality. I like what you say about education and the churches but unfortunately it won't happen in my life span. Could say a lot more but better hold off. ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM No, I agree that it will take time...and more people trying to explain it like I tried to.....without 'demanding' anything. People (mostly) will continue in their religions....but they need to come to terms with reality about what it means... thanks for the vote... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:22 PM You point I understand Bill, the danger in religion is when people think they understand the plan of God .. Either blame God or credit him. I suspect it has nothing at all to do with either but that is just my belief. It is when religious beliefs start to step on the rights of others then sure people should cry foul. Likewise I see too many people without faith trying to blame all problems on religion .. when in fact that is not true either .. Good and Bad people from all walks of life .. and many are as bad as the TV preachers trying to convert others to their idea of what life is about. Miracles, sure do believe in them, I saw a stage 4 cancer disappear from prayer that the docs called Miracle .. but people with faith would say sure thing happens all the time, people without would say .. great med treatment .. no two will ever agree. But my belief says God doesn't create accidents nor does he intervene ... it is life and that is our burden, our test of faith ... Intervention comes from asking more on matters of the soul .. and sometimes prayer does fix health issues ... but that is my belief and I do not expect anyone but me to follow it .. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:41 PM We (you and I) wouldn't beat those dead horses if we didn't thoroughly enjoy doing so, eh, Bill? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:48 PM I have another hand to discuss. :) What people often call miracles, I have begun to understand differently. Over and over again - repeatedly - I have seen it happen that something comes about in evident response to something that is put out into the universe (I don't know how else to describe it). It is often called synchronicity but that by itself explains nothing. I have often experienced it myself- and I've got lots of stories about it - but other people have told me of similar things. I am sure there are many more instances than I have heard about but it seems to me that many people either don't recognize it or have not learned to rely upon its happening. For the record: Really, truly not wanting to walk across town to deliver something to someone - and having that person zoom up to me, in a neighborhood where I knew of no reason for her to be; missing a bus in early morning, and asking myself who I could call at that hour who wouldn't mind running me to my commitment - and having a friend swoop up in a pickup truck I'd never seen before and stop and ask, Where are you going?; thinking of a person and having that person call me within the hour - often; getting on a plane to see my sister who was in a nursing home because of bad knees - and having her die there less than 24 hours later... There are many other instances I could talk about. These to me are not God-related, except perhaps to the extent that the "system" may have been set up to run that way. I dunno. I only know that I can count on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:53 PM At least Pete Seeger isn't in this thread! Popular subject lately................... LOL.........oh well................ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:01 PM Yeah, I've seen that synchronicity thing many times too, Ebbie. It's fascinating. I've no idea what factors are involved in regards to making it happen, but I think it happens. A deity is not the first thing that comes to my mind when theorizing possible causes for synchronicity. I tend to think more that everything is innately connected to everything else in ways we don't yet understand. That does not necessarily require a deity. It just requires a system similar to a hologram, where every least part somehow contains the imprint of the entirety. In such a system nothing is isolated from the rest of the continuum, everything is connected. A certain type of event (physical, engergetic, mental or even emotional) moves through the whole system like a wave, and that wave is seen to break on many different reefs and beaches, so to speak. Every single apparently isolated event becomes as a stone cast onto a pond, and the ripples from it go out forever. None of this requires having belief in a deity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bobert Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM "Imagine no relgion"... I mean, hey, most of us are spiritual at some level... And many deeply spiritual who prescribe to religion... I mean, even athiests can be spiritual... Hey, I happen to be a follwer of Christ... Does that mean I belive everything in the Bible (especially the Old Testament)??? Hell no... (((Sorry, Lord)))... But I'm comfortable with with my faith... And I'm sure that most folks, at this stage in their lives (assuming that most of the folks here remember Richrad Nixon) are comfortable with their own carved out spiritual places... I mean, I guess I don't understand the discusssion??? What... Yer "God" better than my "God" or my "unGod"??? Some shit around her I think is over my head, 'er somethin'??? B |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:15 PM Well, Bobert, if you wanted to follow anyone, I think Jesus would be a good choice. He had a lot of excellent ideas (reputedly, anyway). I like his attitude to social responsibility, love, mercy, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, and all that sort of good stuff. He got tried and crucified by the religious authorities of his day. That tells me right away that the man was probably offering some very good and progressive ideas! ;-) Just the kind of person I'd like to have around, in fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:19 PM Jesus works for me also ... and Like Bobster, I ain't much in the old testament stuff at all .. I don't bother |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:03 AM (Poor Bill - hijacked again!) Today on Facebook (I still don't know my way around, so whatever pops up when I open it is what I read:) the Episcopal priest I used to work for mentioned that he was in the middle of a course in learning about the Qur'an with a group. One of his church members responded to the priest's message by saying that the "God of the Bible is not the god of the Qur'an". So I wrote: "Speaking as someone who does not have a dog in this hunt, I would say that the God of the Old Testament has more than a passing resemblance to the God of the Qur'an." I don't know if it will get a response or not. No worries. Little Hawk, I tend to think of synchronicity using the model of a strawberry patch: the blooms and the berries and the leaves are on top and visible but under the surface, all the plants are connected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Greg F. Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:43 AM Perhaps a better approach is to let people believe as they wish...I saw a stage 4 cancer disappear from prayer... Whoo, boy - see, this is where the difficulty comes in. You "know" that prayer was the causative agent how, exactly? Accepting any looney claim that comes along without proof is what got us into Iraq, why certain individuals still think "reaganomics" works & the like. "Letting people believe what they wish" is not necessarily a benign option. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:51 AM Yea it is Greg or else would you like a few people, government or religious to control people's thoughts ... As I said, I don't expect anyone to believe as I do .. and actually don't care if they do or don't .. It is what it is for me. Nor do I want you to try and explain to me your version of life .. I mean this as no criticism I just don't care. I respect your non belief, appreciate the same consideration back if that is possible. Nothing more or less |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:01 AM Here is my point then I will be done with it ... and I mean this as no disrespect to Bill, Greg or anyone else that I regard as friends. We can disagree on belief systems and that is fine to do so. What bothers me is people on the street corner with signs or door knockers trying to "save others from hell". Likewise there are atheists that constantly want to hold up their signs and save us from "religion" . Both cases are just as wrong .. Life is called free will. Each decides on their own |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM Not to be too much of a Day about it, the confirmation bias is always a risk when observing a correlation between something put out in the universe, and some event occurring which you attribute to that something. I am completely sure that generating impulses into the universe of thought makes a difference, but I have gradually learned to mistrust my filters which tend to find correlations by ignoring the uncorrelated data. When someone tells you why your personality is defined by the hour and place of your birth it is easy, if you are so inclined, to find all the correlations that demonstrate theproof. But you alsohave to ignore all the instances you've encountered where the correlation didn't hold true and the nominal Virgo acted like a Taurus. ALways good to double check assumptions. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:27 AM IF their intent was merely to save me from hell, I would be at least a little grateful. But they seem inclined to make life right here a bit more hellacious with their intercessions and their far-out data structures. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:29 AM And you are so right Amos. For me, when all possible reasons for the cure comes up short. When docs have no explanation, the only thing left is the impossible. And people of faith should question their faith, they should not accept anything their priest, minister etc says as the truth. I question mine all the time .. each time I come back to the same place ... and that is a healthy thing to do .. I submit those without should also do the same from time to time. Any event I am rambling on ... and no mean spirit intended from me my friends :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:45 AM "(Poor Bill - hijacked again!)" *grin*.... it's ok. I always assume folks will bounce off of ANY topic in ways that reflect their own orientation toward things. But it's like singing certain songs in styles I feel are closer to the original...or 'true' (not really a good word) spirit of the song. Maybe some folks will absorb, even if it is only subliminally, a little bit of another way to approach the song...whether they change their basic approach or not. Awareness that there ARE other ways to deal with it all can soften and ease possible conflicts...and that ain't a bad way to go. ----------------------------------------------------------- "....where the correlation didn't hold true and the nominal Virgo acted like a Taurus." I think I have mentioned before that a woman told me once, after looking me up...horoscopically speaking... that she understood that Taurans, and me in particular, would not put much stock in such things. I could only shrug.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM Yeah...I shrug too when astrology comes up. Not that I necessarily think it doesn't work...nor that I necessarily think it works either....I frankly don't know. I shrug because I just don't understand it and for some reason I am not interested enough in it to bother trying to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:03 PM I too put little faith in or spend much time in thinking about astrology. However, there is the occasional case where I wonder... Like when I met a colleague's husband. Not only did he look like my one brother, he walked like him (I have no reason to think they are related). Turned out their birthdays are one day apart. What? And two bandmates of mine. Both teachers, they became good friends after they met and it was almost a year before they discovered they had the same birthday. And later, after we were all in a contradance band, a little boy still in diapers joined us. He wanted so much to play that one of the bandmates brought him a piccolo banjo and the only time he would leave us the whole night that we played was when he would go over to his mother and get himself a cracker. Turned out his birthday is four days later than theirs. (He is now in high school and plays multiple instruments) One of the funny moments burnt into my mind: One time both bandmates showing him something on his instrument knelt down to the little guy's height. And he knelt down too.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: IanC Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:08 PM A little detail that often gets overlooked in the story of the feeding of the 5,000 is that, however he achieves the "miracle" (quite a few people say that perhaps the sharing was the miracle) Jesus needs the little boy with the five loaves and the two fish. It's not much use praying for something - God do this, make this happen, stop this happening - unless we're prepared to do something, however small, about it. To me the miraculous aspect is that when you do get round to doing your part, you find everybody else is doing theirs. Miracles, to me, are commonplace. Often very small. You just have to appreciate that they are miracles. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: GUEST,Silas Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM I wonder just what the poor fucker who snuffed it did to upset the almighty? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:57 PM The nature of miracle-ness (miraculousity?) is that it happens outside the bounds of normal belief. THis can just as easily be a problem in where those bounds are set, as the case of something "super-natural" occurring. If you believe that all thoughts come from the Mother Goddess Kominta Naouw, then the notion of a cellphone conversation may seem miraculous. I don't have to recite Clark again, do I? Similarly, if you are hide-bound and committed to a Newtonian worldview, the coupling of quantum bits seems a bit miraculous. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: IanC Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:02 PM I see miracles as being something that you can't personally explain. That puts mobile phones into most peoples' area of the miraculous. As I said, miracles are commonplace. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:13 PM Right on, Ian. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: GUEST,Songbob Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:33 PM The comment on the 'God of the Quran,' is right on. Allah = Jahweh, and Abraham was the patriarch of Judaism and Islam, through the sons of his wife (the Jews) and his slave (the Muslims). From Wikipedia: For Jews and Christians this is through his son Isaac, by his wife Sarah; for Muslims, he is a prophet of Islam and the ancestor of Muhammad through his other son Ishmael, born to him by Sarah's handmaiden, Hagar. So when some fundamentalist intones, "My God is greater than the God of the Muslims," he's being a fucking idiot. And, in conclusion, a definition: Prayer: A fervent request that God set aside the laws of his creation for the benefit of one self-abasedly 'unworthy.' Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:35 PM "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" Arthur C. Clarke Ebbie...you spoke of synchronicity..in 1975, the only time I was in Juneau, I was downtown in a drugstore..(is there more than one?) when someone behind me spoke my name. It was a guy I had met 4-5 years earlier in Iowa as part of an environmental project. We spoke for 2-3 minutes, and went our ways. Things happen. Years ago, I was visiting friends in Seattle and I was walking downtown, heading for a shop where woodwork was displayed....nothing happened until I got home...then a friend asked me, "Ummm...were you by any chance in Seattle last August?" Things happen.... *I* have picked up the phone and found it was someone I was just thinking about... things happen. It is a lot easier about birthdays....there are standard formulas for predicting odds of B-day sharing under different conditions (# of people present, etc.) Turns out we greatly underestimate what the real odds are. 'Comparison' of traits in people we know/meet is highly subjective, and often depends on what we are looking for...my brother still swears that he knew several guys who are SURE they saw me walking down the street after HS graduation, wearing red suspenders and smoking a cigar....*shrug*...I guess I have a double somewhere. Things happen.... Things happening make life 'interesting', but I never go beyond just enjoying it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:41 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:50 PM Oh, I see that clearly, Amos.. ;>) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Aug 10 - 02:36 PM At least we can understand his post Bill.......something special right there!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Aug 10 - 02:47 PM Finally Amos expresses himself in a clear, succinct, and simple fashion! |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 17 Aug 10 - 02:52 PM lol |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Aug 10 - 04:07 PM I guess if I survived a crash like that, I'd breathe a prayer of thanks for being saved, and of compassion for those who suffered. I wouldn't want to be called upon to defend my reasons for making that prayer. Somehow, I think religious belief goes the wrong direction when it becomes a matter to defend. I don't think divine intervention had anything to do with those many lives being spared and the one life being taken. I think it all happened by a combination of physical forces and timing. Now, if I blamed it on "luck" or "fate," most people wouldn't question me - but belief in luck or fate is surely as indefensible as belief in some sort of divine involvement. Whatever the case, in such a situation I would have the feeling of having been spared; and I would feel a need to express both gratitude for my own good fortune (which I call a "blessing"), and compassion for the misfortune of others who didn't fare so well. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that it's a good thing for people to cultivate attitudes of heartfelt gratitude and compassion, even if those attitudes are directed toward a questionably-extant divinity or if those attitudes do not have a completely rational basis. Maybe there's no obligation for gratitude or compassion, but I find both to be very helpful. And no, I don't believe in miracles. I do believe that I am being cared for by a force beyond myself, and for that I am grateful. I call that force God, others call it something else, and others don't experience it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:54 PM That's a nice, 'healthy' attitude, Joe... to express the 'sense' of gratitude for just being alive, without any direct claim as to how it all happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 10 - 06:03 PM Things happening make life 'interesting', but I never go beyond just enjoying it. Why, Bill Day!! A confession of intellectual laziness, at this hour? I am non-plussed, hornswoggled and mind-boggled, sir!! Also shocked, bemused, speechless and stunned! Oh, rue the day for The Day! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 06:08 PM Why, Amos...you KNOW my intellect gets lots of exercise just sorting out YOUR remarks and issuing warnings about slippery rhetoric! I just don't waste it on useless speculation on ambiguous metaphysical claims. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:17 PM Bill, if you're going to that much trouble, shouldn't the meta be *above* the physical? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:42 PM oh, heck! I left out the backslash! Metaphysical... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:45 PM Ah. I feel better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:45 PM I didn't know it would DO 2 levels like that. I wonder... metaphysical claims |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:48 PM amazing...like climbing into the rafters... and no doubt one could do 9 levels of Dante's hell too |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bob Hitchcock Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:05 PM Well I always thought that God was too busy determining the outcome of Super Bowls and other major sporting events to worry about plane crashes and common folk like us. Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:06 PM lol |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:15 PM ..or 'adjusting' the weather for Gen. George Patton after the prayer he had ordered for the Battle Of the Bulge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:39 PM Bill: Every doggerel has its Day, and it is clear you are mine. As long as you stay on the hamster wheel of physical proof for non-physical existence you will be safe, not to worry. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bob Hitchcock Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:00 PM Your right Bill, I always forget about the weather. Maybe God could determine that my ticket will win the lottery? If that's true I had better go and buy one. Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:01 PM I...uhhh.. have little to say to that one (you worked overtime for it, huh?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:11 PM Bob... no doubt God 'could', but the line is long praying for THAT one.... you need to, ummm... take a number. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Beer Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:53 PM Don't waste your money Bob. I just came home with the winning number. I just know it. ad |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:44 AM The idea that God would answer everyone's prayers (assuming there is such a God that answers prayers) is patently ridiculous, considering that a substantial number of people in every army pray for victory, and an enormous number of people pray for a million dollars or to win the latest lottery jackpot. ;-) If such a God were to answer all those prayers, well... 1. The answers would inevitably conflict with and contradict each other, therefore it can't work. 2. The whole world would go totally nuts, and society would probably collapse, causing world chaos. 3. That would immediately cause more desperate prayers which would conflict with each other in many ways, producing more chaos. 4. Things would get so completely fucked up that God would probably have a nervous breakdown at some point, and resign. (Some of this was touched on in a comedy movie where Jim Carrey got to be God for awhile and found out it wasn't as great as he had thought it would be...) No, what is far more likely in the hypothetical case that any prayers do get answered is this: You don't get what you ask for, you get what you need. ;-) I believe the Rolling Stones covered that concept in one of their songs. Some people may need things that they definitely wouldn't ask for! Then again, it's all just theoretical, right? I am only floating certain possibilities here, not certainties. Keep that in mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:55 AM Well that theory ain't shit Hawkster. I want 10 million bucks but I figure I need about $200,000 and I don't seem to be gettin' jack squat or jack shit either.................Tell ya', I been studying on being a great wizard with the greatest of all time and as soon as I get Da' Hat I ain't wasting no time, I'll be doing tricks right off! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:59 AM Somebody once said something like: Counting on winning the lottery is not a retirement plan. But there is hope for you, Spaw. Write. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Aug 10 - 02:01 AM No way, man. ;-) What you need is a good dose of relative poverty and privation so you don't end up as an arrogant, conceited, self-satisfied ass on a free ride like Cheech Wizard! Think of the big favour God is doing you by dealing you this difficult hand in life. Think of all the character you are building through this rigorous process... (grin) You are soooo lucky, man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Aug 10 - 02:11 AM Now if I could have what I wanted... Sheesh. I guess I'd start with being young again...say about 27...and in absolutely perfect health and really good shape...with the guitar playing skills of Mark Knopfler...20/20 vision...maybe half a million $ in the bank (that's plenty enough for me)...a record company willing to fund and record about 5 albums of my stuff...a really good backup band...just a tad more stretch to my singing range (which is pretty good as it is, but could still be better)...a nice house in some relatively warm climate where I could get away from things when I wanted to... And then there's the women....hmmm. Well, let's not get into that. My wants are relatively modest. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Greg F. Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:30 AM Sounds ta me like some a y'all might benefit from a read of Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Greg F. Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:37 AM Or Winwood Reade's Martyrdom of Man. Or Thomas Paine's Age of Readon Or ..... This "it must be god 'cause I can't think of another explanation" stuff is pretty paleolithic thinking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 18 Aug 10 - 10:55 AM Black Hole? Where did it come from? Big Bang? Where did it come from? God? Where did He/She come from? Spirit? Is inside each of us Faith? Is inside most of us Love? Is inside most of us....and it's Love that Heals. Is God..Love? Is Love..God? Does God live in The Black Hole? And then, of course....perhaps God IS one of us? I tell you what though...RELIGION is Man Made...and that's why it sucks, because it was invented to control, degrade, abuse and to create mind blowing fear...and that fear has survived for thousands of years, to this day. I hope that God IS one of us, but if he is, I bet his shoulders are low at the moment, and the wrinkles are deepset on his face, when he looks around and sees how his people have fucked up so badly.... But then again maybe it's God who caused the BP Oil Spill to happen, because that's woken up thousands of people to so many terrible things that are happening around the planet... And maybe..hey, maybe God is a Banker!! Yeah! And if he is, then I bet He is the one who organised the corruption of the banks to start imploding in their faces! Maybe, just maybe God is out here, among us, working hard to create the bad things, because He knows that only when faced with such mind numbing adversity, will his People finally come together as one to do what has to be done....at long, long last... And it'll be God's People, even those who aren't aware of who the heck he is, who'll save this planet from the brink of destruction... So maybe God is not just ONE of us...maybe God is ALL of us.... God...You, Me, They, We, US |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 18 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM oneness? See the Who will we blame thread... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 18 Aug 10 - 11:12 AM Joe Offer commented: Maybe there's no obligation for gratitude or compassion, but I find both to be very helpful. And no, I don't believe in miracles. I do believe that I am being cared for by a force beyond myself, and for that I am grateful. I think that gratitude and compassion are like forgiveness: The benefits from them are basically to the forgiver, or the gratituder or compassionater (if there are such words. I guess now there are). Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 18 Aug 10 - 11:29 AM The problem with all these variations on godhead, as Lizzie implies, is that they are representations of something that cannot be represented. It strikes me that to actually contact and perceive the nature of infinite Cause of Existence, one would have to be highly spiritually evolved as an individual, first. As long as one's sense of own Identity is layered over with pictures and alphabets and mental sediment of all kinds, the sort we use for normaloperation, I don't really see how impressions of godhead could be much more than a Sunday Comix version. That being the case, I am endlessly amazed by how seriously that version gets taken. Men and women still fight to the death over it. Which strikes me as comparable to slitting throats over whether Doonesbury is better than Dilbert. I do not mean here to be disrespectful to those who seek and find some insight into the Infinite. I treasure that effort. I am simply remarking that like any perception, this one is susceptible to endless degrees and gradients of degradation and alteration. But I don't think anyone really has a place in claiming which is which concerning another's travels in this highly volatile territory. Volatile, I mean, not because of its fundamental nature, as far as I understand it, but because of the shoddy nature of our own perceptual mechanisms when we are using anything but the purest of direct perception. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM Greg - It ("God") is only Paleolithic thinking if you think about it in a Paleolithic manner. Many people seem to do that, but that's no reflection on the general subject of God itself...it's a reflection on how those people think. You could do that about the moon too. You could think in a Paleolithic fashion about it (primitively and foolishly)...or you could think in a much more advanced way about it. Same goes for anything else. Anyway, Amos said it very well in the post that precedes this one. He's not thinking in a Paleolithic fashion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Greg F. Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:56 PM Or,LH, more to the point, its a reflection on how those people DON"T think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM As you please... ;-) Everybody thinks, but some people only do it at a "Dick and Jane" level. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Aug 10 - 02:09 PM "Control, degrade, abuse and to create mind blowing fear" are indeed experienced by some who involve themselves in religion - but not all, perhaps not even by most. Religion is indeed created by humans, humans who wish to come together to share a common belief system. Sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's bad - but it is not necessarily intended to "control, degrade, abuse and to create mind blowing fear." I suppose it depends on one's view of humanity, but I cannot find it within myself to believe that most humans are willing to submit themselves to those who seek to "control, degrade, abuse and to create mind blowing fear." For myself, I find the practice of religion be be enjoyable, mentally stimulating and challenging, and joyful. I acknowledge that others have had vastly different experiences with religion. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 18 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM ...and that's the Joe Offer I referred to in the other thread. *smile* |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 18 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM True, Joe...but Gawd, in the wrong hands, religion can be an absolute bastard of a thing, let's face it. The damage, hurt and pain that's been wrought on people throughout the centuries has been grim. But as you say, in the right hands, religion can be used for the utmost good. It's just that so much of it lies in the wrong hands these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Aug 10 - 07:53 PM You could say the same about political and financial power, couldn't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Aug 10 - 10:26 PM Divine intervention is unprovable. The books are cooked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:57 AM As to God answering prayers, I'm reminded of something I heard as an early teenager. My best friend for years was a PK (Preacher's Kid). His mother said to me once, "Yes, God answers every prayer. But remember, 'No' is just as valid an answer as 'Yes'." Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: GUEST,999 Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:19 PM God. Yeah, right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:41 PM You'd rather think about Angelina Jolie, right? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 12 Dec 10 - 12:06 PM More obvious and immediate benefits, I guess... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:37 PM ? One wonders how & why you ended at this thread again, Amos. Is it traced, or was it a link somewhere? It is often fun to re-read these and decide how much sense you made in earlier attempts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:37 PM Or... any excuse to get #100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: gnu Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:40 PM Hahahhaa... you have given Terry a new hobby, Bill! >;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:42 PM "God balances the books" Lesson to be learned here, leave the bookeeping to ghosts and bogeymen and you're bound to end up in a recession. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Stringsinger Date: 13 Dec 10 - 11:28 AM god is obviously Arthur Anderson. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 13 Dec 10 - 01:21 PM Ebbie asserted: Bill, if you're going to that much trouble, shouldn't the meta be *above* the physical? The word "metaphysics" comes from the title given to the original Greek writing, "ta meta ta physika", meaning "to be placed AFTER the physics" (Caps supplied by yours truly), referring to the position this paper or chapter was to occupy in the final assembled book. Not "above", but "after". Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 13 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM Someone told me that God wouldn't inflict troubles on me that he didn't know I could handle. I just wish God didn't have such a high opinion of me. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: frogprince Date: 13 Dec 10 - 01:38 PM Went to see a legendary southern gospel group a few years ago; to me, the group name meant an earlier generation of the family, and music I had grown up hearing on the radio. What we got was largely televangelist-type schlock, saying anything to sucker money from the vulnerable. Somewhere in the course of it, we "learned" that if there is one "true Christian" on an airplane, everyone aboard is safer, since God looks out for his own. Too bad I no longer consider myself a "true Christian" by that Dude's definition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 13 Dec 10 - 02:07 PM •Metaphysics (Greek: ôὰ ìåôὰ ôὰ öõóéêÜ) is one of the principal works of Aristotle and the first major work of the branch of philosophy with the same name. The principal subject is "being qua being", or being understood as being. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics_(Aristotle) However the Latin word "metaphysica" means "metaphysics" as a subject. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:18 AM Wow, this really is a debate to get your teeth into. Imagine how much more interesting it would be if there was such a thing as God? zzzzz |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 14 Dec 10 - 06:40 PM Getting on your knees and looking to the heavens may really bring comfort during tough times, new research finds. This will come as no surprise to many Americans, as 75 percent say they pray on a weekly basis in order to manage hard situations, including illness, and emotions such as sadness and anger, according to the study researcher citing Pew Research Center data. And most Americans also think God is involved in their everyday lives and concerned with their personal well-being. The new study aimed to find out how prayer leads to mental relief. Results suggested prayer can serve as a distraction and even as sort of a punching bag. Ads by Google Shop Sportsman's Guide Get Free Shipping OR $25 Gift Card + $5 Off Orders $99+! Code: SH106 SportsmansGuide.com Always available Lead researcher Shane Sharp, a graduate student studying sociology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, conducted in-depth interviews with 62 victims of violent relationships with intimate partners. Participants ranged in age from 19 to 72 (averaging 41) and represented a wide swath of the United States in geographic, educational and racial terms, with largely Christian backgrounds. Results showed that in general that God or another figure from religion acted as a support system for the participants. The figure had certain perceived characteristics, such as being loving, powerful and caring, that influenced why participants sought him or her out. But unlike a flesh-and-blood shoulder to cry on or an abusive partner to rail at, God was available whenever and wherever the participant reached out, Sharp said. "If they vented their anger to that abusive partner, the result was likely to be more violence," Sharp told LiveScience. "But they could be angry at God while praying, without fear of reprisal." For those who are not religious, Sharp said, the findings of the study may not apply unless they look to another "virtual" friend, such as a celebrity, in times of crises. [Thinking of God Calms Believers, Stresses Atheists] Victims' stories One participant, Monica, a white 25-year-old, said she used prayer to manage her anger over being abused by a loved one. It's "kinda like getting something off your chest, you know. I mean, youÕre kinda talking about it with somebody, you know. I mean, itÕs just a way to kinda voice your opinion, you know, about something, or, you know, let the Lord know, you know, how you would like something," she was quoted as saying. Sharp added that prayer seemed to help self-image. "During prayer, victims came to see themselves as they believed God saw them. Since these perceptions were mostly positive, it helped raise their senses of self-worth that counteracted their abusers' hurtful words," Sharp said. Marianne, a white Southern Baptist in her early 50s who had been married to an abusive man for nearly 20 years, sighed as she said: "I guess the number one thing for me would be the realization that thereÕs, there was, the God out there the whole time where I'm out thinking, well, 'This is my life so screwed up. I need to get drunk. No, I need to take drugs. No, I need to kill myself.' ... And just to, to be able to just sit down and think that God wanted to communicate with me and that I'm not a scumbag in front of his eyes no matter what. Wow, how cool is that?" Prayer also served as a handy distraction for some, Sharp found. Folding one's hands and focusing on this conversation provided a reprieve from the anxiety of an abusive relationship. Yet the consequences of prayer weren't always positive. "For some, through prayer they told me they learned to forgive their abusive partners, to let go of their anger and resentment," Sharp said. "But that's a double-edged sword. It's good for those who are out of that violent relationship to let go of it to a certain extent. But if they're still in their violent relationship, it may postpone their decision to leave, and that can be bad." Religion is complicated That double-edged sword highlights the complexity of religion and its effects. "Religion is often pointed to as a mostly positive or mostly negative thing. It's way more complicated than that," said Sharp, whose results are detailed in the current issue of the journal Social Psychology Quarterly. Other research out this month shows that religious people are happier because of the social networks they build by attending religious services. Past research has shown that teen birth rates are higher in highly religious states, and another study suggested kids with religious parents are better behaved than others. The findings have practical implications for mental health experts and researchers who study well-being. Sharp said future research should consider prayer as an interaction instead of a one-sided act. from LiveScience.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:32 PM I have no doubt that prayer actually DOES "...bring comfort during tough times..." for those who already believe. I would suggest that it is one form of mental exercise ...much like bio-feedback or hypnotism. When one is convinced that 'this exercise often works', it creates a feeling that 'I have done something positive'...etc. Because of the built-in disclaimers... ("God might say "No", and that is a valid answer")... prayer is a self-validating hypothesis. If prayers are answered positively, "God heard and helped", if not, "God's wisdom and decision cannot be questioned". In many ways, this is a pretty easy way to deal with the problems of life. Just saying "we can't fathom God's ways and His plans for us" relieves us of trying to cope with many of the bewildering complexities. As one who tries to balance 'what I would like to be true' with what 'I can't KNOW might be true', I will guarantee that I often envy those who find solace and comfort in belief & prayer....especially in the death of loved ones. When my father died after years of decline, the only thing I could say was "at least he doesn't hurt any more.." All this is why that, *IF* I had a button that would instantly stop 'religious belief' in all of mankind, I would NOT push it. I am resigned to the idea that 'death is the end', but most people are not, and I can barely imagine the chaos if their 'pie in the sky' was taken away. I do not, and cannot, believe in reincarnation, 'eternal life in a heaven', and/or "The Wheel of Samsara"... but I certainly will do no more than explain myself in threads like this. (I usually will not go into detail with folks I talk to casually unless pressed.) Perhaps many thousands of years..(*if the race survives conflict partially fueled BY religious differences*) will see more education and less reliance on 'easy answers', but I really doubt that 'belief' in supernatural answers will ever go away, as part OF being human is the ability to form "what if" questions, and invent the same answers over & over... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bobert Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM I'm prayin' fir ya', Bill... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:37 PM Now, Bill, it ain't true that you cannot believe in reincarnation; you just haven't observed the evidence thereof just yet. Never you mind, you will... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:47 PM ummmm... well... gee... (to both of ya') |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:53 PM Spinning yer wheels? Ran out of road? Hmmmmmm..... |
