BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:19 AM

Yes Amos Clean burning of wood still means combining carbon and oxygen into CO2.

"if you ad one and don't take none away the total gets bigger"

That is why cutting down the rain forest adds to the CO2 levels in the atmosphere.

Cutting down a tree that is converting CO2 adds CO2 and burning the tree or alcohol made from it produces more CO2. 1 + 1 = 2

How's cornohol boondoggle coming along? How much energy does it take to make a gallon of ethanol?

Ah Don't see no hans in tha air.

ENERGY INPUT........131,000 BTUs
Energy in Ethanol....77,000 BTUs

Obama voted for the ethanol mandate. "As a senator from a corn-growing state, Obama will have no problem on the ethanol issue and can tout his credentials on this score with a clear conscience," said Peverill Squire, who teaches politics at the University of Iowa.

July 5, 2005
Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel from corn and other crops is not worth the energy
By Susan S. Lang

Chris Hallman/University Photography
Ecologist David Pimentel, shown here pumping gas, says that his analysis shows that producing ethanol uses more energy than the resulting fuel generates. Copyright © Cornell University

ITHACA, N.Y. -- Turning plants such as corn, soybeans and sunflowers into fuel uses much more energy than the resulting ethanol or biodiesel generates, according to a new Cornell University and University of California-Berkeley study.

"There is just no energy benefit to using plant biomass for liquid fuel," says David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at Cornell. "These strategies are not sustainable."

Pimentel and Tad W. Patzek, professor of civil and environmental engineering at Berkeley, conducted a detailed analysis of the energy input-yield ratios of producing ethanol from corn, switch grass and wood biomass as well as for producing biodiesel from soybean and sunflower plants. Their report is published in Natural Resources Research (Vol. 14:1, 65-76).

In terms of energy output compared with energy input for ethanol production, the study found that:

    * corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
    * switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and
    * wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that:

    * soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and
    * sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In assessing inputs, the researchers considered such factors as the energy used in producing the crop (including production of pesticides and fertilizer, running farm machinery and irrigating, grinding and transporting the crop) and in fermenting/distilling the ethanol from the water mix. Although additional costs are incurred, such as federal and state subsidies that are passed on to consumers and the costs associated with environmental pollution or degradation, these figures were not included in the analysis.

"The United State desperately needs a liquid fuel replacement for oil in the near future," says Pimentel, "but producing ethanol or biodiesel from plant biomass is going down the wrong road, because you use more energy to produce these fuels than you get out from the combustion of these products."

Although Pimentel advocates the use of burning biomass to produce thermal energy (to heat homes, for example), he deplores the use of biomass for liquid fuel. "The government spends more than $3 billion a year to subsidize ethanol production when it does not provide a net energy balance or gain, is not a renewable energy source or an economical fuel. Further, its production and use contribute to air, water and soil pollution and global warming," Pimentel says. He points out that the vast majority of the subsidies do not go to farmers but to large ethanol-producing corporations.

"Ethanol production in the United States does not benefit the nation's energy security, its agriculture, economy or the environment," says Pimentel. "Ethanol production requires large fossil energy input, and therefore, it is contributing to oil and natural gas imports and U.S. deficits." He says the country should instead focus its efforts on producing electrical energy from photovoltaic cells, wind power and burning biomass and producing fuel from hydrogen conversion.

    * An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels .

    * The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps are needed to separate the 8 percent ethanol from the 92 percent water. Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline.
    * Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. "Put another way", Pimentel says, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU".

    * Fossil fuels-not ethanol-are used to produce ethanol", Pimentel says. "The growers and processors can't afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn't afford it, either, if it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price".

    * Most economic analyses of corn-to-ethanol production overlook the costs of environmental damages, which Pimentel says should add another 23 cents per gallon. "Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded. Corn should not be considered a renewable resource for ethanol energy production, especially when human food is being converted into ethanol".

    * The approximately $3 billion a year in current federal and state subsidies (mainly to large corporations) for ethanol production are not the only costs to consumers, the Cornell scientist observes. Subsidized corn results in higher prices for meat, milk and eggs because about 70 percent of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the United States. Increasing ethanol production would further inflate corn prices, Pimentel says, noting: "In addition to paying tax dollars for ethanol subsidies, consumers would be paying significantly higher food prices in the marketplace".

    * Nickels and dimes aside, some drivers still would rather see their cars fueled by farms in the Midwest than by oil wells in the Middle East, Pimentel acknowledges, so he calculated the amount of corn needed to power an automobile:

    * The average U.S. automobile, traveling 10,000 miles a year on pure ethanol (not a gasoline-ethanol mix) would need about 852 gallons of the corn-based fuel. This would take 11 acres to grow, based on net ethanol production. This is the same amount of cropland required to feed seven Americans.

    * If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

Hey, 95% of all forest fires are caused by trees.

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

And the other 5% by Boy Scouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

Momma says that iffin ya keep saying dum thangs lahk that, they gonna kick you out of school!

Iffin the carbon is in a tree, eventually it will go back into the atmosphere. Momma says global warming is a long term problem. We gotta think about the next few hundred years as much as the next ten. So momma says its better to burn a tree and not take sumthin outa the ground to burn.

Iffin ya never try to larn nothin then they ain't even gonna let you ride the short bus Forrest.

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM

I think those numbers are a bit superficial. For one thing, I doubt the procurement costs of procuring and refining oil are being used by comparison, which totally distorts the relative merit of biofuel. For another thing, there are other ways to produce biofuel from biomass than burning fossil fuels to do so. SOlar thermal concentration is one.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:56 PM

Another thing is that the costs are expected to drop radically as the infrastructure is put in place. Another things is that those figures are way exaggerated. Another is that it does take energy to produce biofuels, it also takes energy to produce fossil fuels. They don't refine themselves. But like biofuels, like fossil fuels, are often produced using waste energy from the refining process.

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:22 PM

...also, fusion, not fision, in reactors, safer, lest waste in the cooling....electro magnetism.....hydrogen/water conversion
All could be done, right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:53 PM

Where are your numbers Amos? BTUs in BTUs out etc.

As usual Amos, the expert, questions things rather authoritatively but can't produce jack shit in the way of facts and figures, just his opinion which is always right just like his "summary justice" and smart bomb initiatives.

"its better to burn a tree and not take sumthin outa the ground to burn"

Welll weeeellll wel. Il be hornswoggled but I do believe that as long as the tree is alive it is able to inhale the CO2 that the stuff in the ground produces when it burns.

But if the tree is burning, it has ceased inhaling CO2 and is now producing CO2 just like the stuff in the ground would except there is one less tree to inhale CO2.

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:26 PM

Black reporter booted from McCain rally

By BRENDAN FARRINGTON – API Aug 5, 2008

"TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — A newspaper has asked John McCain's campaign why a black reporter assigned to cover a rally was singled out by security and told to leave a backstage area.
      Stephen Price, a reporter for the Tallahassee Democrat, was among four Florida capital press corps reporters behind the scenes at a Panama City rally Friday when a Secret Service agent approached and asked if he were with the national media traveling with McCain. Price said no, and the agent told him he had to leave. Price said he then pointed out that there were other state reporters in the same area, but was still told to leave. The other reporters were white.
      A Panama City police officer quickly approached with his hand on his holster and asked what the problem was, Price said. At the same time, Palm Beach Post reporter Dara Kam came to Price's defense and was told she also had to leave, Price said.
      The other two reporters, Alex Leary of the St. Petersburg Times and Marc Caputo of The Miami Herald, weren't removed.
      Caputo, however, said that initially he also was told he had to leave the area.
      "Security was tight and was a bit over-controlling, which is par for the course at these events. And, as par for the course, I tried to get near the candidate when I saw another reporter there (Alex Leary). Security tried to throw me out, but I found a McCain staffer I knew and the person vouched for me," Caputo said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.
      Leary said nobody questioned why he was in the area. He added that he didn't see the exchange Price had with security.
      The McCain campaign said it asked Secret Service to look into the events. Campaign spokesman Brian Rogers said it "found that no one from the campaign was involved."
      Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren said two other Florida reporters were removed along with Price and any other reporters who weren't with the national press should have been removed as well. At all campaign events, national and local press are separated for logistical reasons.
      "Race played absolutely no role in any actions taken by our employees or anybody else in this case," Zahren said.
      McCain's campaign called Price and Bob Gabordi, the newspaper's executive editor, on Tuesday and apologized.
      "I accept the apology," Price said. "I definitely wish I was never singled out. I came up there to do a story, that's all I wanted to do is write a story."
      The campaign said McCain personally would call Price in a few days, according to the newspaper.
      "It's the right thing for the McCain campaign to do," Gabordi said. "Our issue remains with the Secret Service agent. His actions are still a problem. The senator's campaign has done the right thing and we appreciate that."
      Price had said he could think of no other reason why he was approached other than his race. He said he had to show his media credentials to get into the area, and that he was there for several minutes before being removed.
      "It was just a really crazy situation. We were being carted out of there and everyone was looking," Price said, adding that he felt upset and humiliated."

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:30 PM

Well, that's great... Maybe after McCain gets US into his first needless war he will apologize...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM

Bobert:

"The McCain campaign said it asked Secret Service to look into the events. Campaign spokesman Brian Rogers said it "found that no one from the campaign was involved."
      Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren said two other Florida reporters were removed along with Price and any other reporters who weren't with the national press should have been removed as well. At all campaign events, national and local press are separated for logistical reasons."




Blame the secret Service. You know, US Government

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 06:07 PM

The above is mine. I was distracted because when I paste into the box. sometimes dittos and apostrophes turn into slanted characters. Then when it is submitted they turn into weird â€쳌 characters. Or maybe it is just my machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 06:21 PM

Well, Ms Chabot is purely an ass of the first order. The convention was glowing with unity and single-voiced determination by the end of the last speech last night. Every whisper of discord was swept away by the truly remarkable demonstrations of statesmanship of President and Ms. Clinton and Vice-President nominee Biden, as well as Senator Kerry. There was not a dry eye or a discordant voice in the place. As for timing, twenty women took the stage last night, all from the House of Representatives,on the anniversary of the first Convention at which women could vote, and one by one stood up and said their stories in support of their nominee; meanwhile, Presidential-nominee Obama give his acceptance speech on the anniversary of Martin King's "I Have a Dream" speech.

So I think your sources must really be mud-suckers, bottom crawlers, and bile-spewers, Sawz. Not that this surprises me, as you seem to often run with that class of thought yourself.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:59 PM

DENVER, Aug 28 (Reuters) - A top contender to be Republican John McCain's vice presidential running mate abruptly canceled appointments in Denver on Thursday but it was unclear whether he was McCain's choice.

Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, in Denver to help provide counterattacks against the Democratic Party convention, canceled participation in a news conference and other appearances, a Republican official said.

It was unclear whether the cancellation had any significance to McCain's vice presidential search.

Pawlenty, 47, was believed to have been on McCain's short list for vice presidential running mates, a list that also included former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, who lost to McCain in the primary battle, and independent Democratic Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut.

A Republican official said McCain has made up his mind on his No. 2 and was expected to appear with his running mate at a rally on Friday in Dayton, Ohio.

Subject: RE: BS: Wheels Fallin' Off Straight Talk Express
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:39 PM

Pollster Scott Rasmussen '86 Has Yet to See Convention Bounce for Barack Obama

Scott Rasmussen August 28, 2008, Greencastle, Ind. - "More Republicans support McCain than Democrats support Obama," Scott Rasmussen, president of Rasmussen Reports and 1986 graduate of DePauw University, tells the Boston Herald. Rasmussen's latest national poll, updated daily, shows Democrat Barack Obama leading Republican John McCain by a slim point -- 45% to 44%. The two candidates are deadlocked at 47% each when voters who were leaning toward a candidate are factored in.

The Herald's Hillary Chabot writes, "Obama and McCain are neck and neck in the national polls despite three days of glowing speeches about the Illinois senator during a highly publicized convention...

http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=22006