1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:05 PM

"without losing my identity, my heritage or my love and knowledge of English traditional music." (Will)...as I just posted on the RIV thread, the last Durham Folk Party (all unaccompanied) singaround i attended was both traditional and enjoyable, but, at 43, I was probably the youngest there.


And as I tried to explain you weren't the youngest owing to a loss of traditional culture, but because in Tyneside a lot of people have got into singing Folk Songs in retirement (through Folkworks etc.) and bloody fine they are too. They sing unaccompanied because they're not musicians.

You perceive a situation, and you leap to the wrong assumptions. You immediately assume a negative position. Nothing could be further from the truth - there are more people singing in this way than ever, which is a jolly good thing.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:13 PM

"And Ted: I have, e.g., mentioned a few times watching a BBC series, where hands-on historians, trying to farm according to 18th century technology, were visited by a period musician with a 10 wire-string English cittern, which he said would have been plucked with a feather plectrum."
- WalkaboutsVerse

this has nothing to do with anything, once more WAV avoids the question of separate musical environments.

Britain, including England is multicultural (music, the arts, etc) along with the rest of the world, and there's nothing you can do about it, so get used to it!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:18 PM

I've said it LOTS of times - because I love our world being multicultural, and I'm sure positive nationalism (WITHOUT imperialism and conquest) is the best and most peaceful way forward for humanity.

This is an opinion and an assertion. It does NOT answer my question: WHY is it the best? Why is me singing a French song or a Frenchman singing an English song a handicap to the peace of humanity - eh? Quite the opposite, I would have thought - but then logical thought, backed up by external evidence, is not your forte, is it?

Evidence of the harmful effects of this cross-fertilisation, please - hard evidence.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:33 PM

Several people at the Durham Folk Party singarounds (which we have both enjoyed, S), including Jez Lowe, can play instruments but CHOOSE to sing unaccompanied. It's not a sin to agree with me on something.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:37 PM

You haven't answered my question.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:57 PM

Please remember that this is a music discussion forum, and talk about music. Leave your squabbles somewhere else.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:35 PM

Several people at the Durham Folk Party singarounds (which we have both enjoyed, S), including Jez Lowe, can play instruments but CHOOSE to sing unaccompanied. It's not a sin to agree with me on something.

That wasn't the point, WAV. You seem to think there is something noble about singing without accompaniment; I only do so out of laziness, when I can't be bothered taking an instrument along to a singaround. I don't like singing unaccompanied, it's as simple as that; and most of the people I know who do sing unaccompanied do so because they can't play an instrument, not because of some absurd idea of it being traditional to do so. I know some bloody amazing singers and musicians who make the business of FOLK a very pleasing thing indeed. Some sing unaccompanied, others don't; it's their choice and there are no rules beyond what suits the individual. Society is made up of individuals; culture is determined by the choices that they make.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:40 PM

WAV--Surprisingly, not everything that is presented on television is factual, and even that which is factual may not be a complete picture.

Even at that, had the cittern that the "period musician" wielded been historically accurate, it would have been nearly undistinguishable from a Portuguese guitar of the same period. If it had been an authentic instrument from the time, it would have also been difficult to play, and more difficult to tune.

Here is a nice piece that discusses some of the multitude of issues related to this instrument--
The 17th and 18th Century Citterns

And here are some examples of what it sounds like:

Renaissance Cittern Site Audio Files

You can see and here the Portuguese version here.
Portuguese Fado The still use it in their traditional music.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:42 PM

Incidentally, that "high string on top" ukulele tuning peculiarity seems to have come from the cittern.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 09:55 PM

I was going to bow out...and I promise I will.
Firstly Ms Beak, I too, have breath that is bated for the Prom DVD...If they've got any sense they should get it out by Christmas...There are at least 1000 people who were at the gig that would buy it...Just because they're on it!

Final word to WAV. Yes I did go to the Singers club run by Ewan McColl and Peggy Seeger (look them up)
It wasn't just songs from your own nation, it was specifically songs from your own area. And woe betide anyone who deviated from the rule.

Only went twice, and then found a club that was much more inclusive and welcoming.
BTW I've been trying to get my head (and fingers) around a "Horo" (look it up WAV) on my "Good Englsh/Irish/Greek/Portuguese"..etc Cittern. and it's a real swine...How can you dance in those time signatures..?

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Will Fly on the Hoof
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 03:14 AM

David, some sort of response to my question about the negative effects of making music from lands other than one's own would be appreciated. You assert, by implication, that this is a bad thing and not a "good way forward for humanity" - but I see no factual evidence to back this up.

I don't think, given the modern age we live in - surrounded, as we are by books, documents, recordings on audio and video, and live folk sessions everywhere, that English traditional music is in any danger whatsoever of being marginalised or forgotten. My own experience in my own part of Sussex, and elsewhere, is that there's more music around than you can shake a stick at. So - where's the evidence for your assertions?

And, to return to the original points in this thread, nothing could be more English - in the sublimest sense of the word - than the UOGB. They combine musicianship, humour, irony and entertainment to a superb degree. If you can't understand that, there's no hope for you.

End of thread as faras I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:06 AM

It wasn't just songs from your own nation, it was specifically songs from your own area. And woe betide anyone who deviated from the rule.

Where would that leave, WAV? Born in Manchester, socialised in Australia and latterly fetched up in Tyneside... Most who know him (myself included) conclude that he is predominantly Australian; I keep urging him to sing English Folk Songs from the Australian Tradition (which I think he'd do bloody well at actually - Henry Lawson poems included!) but he resolutely refuses, partly because he has learnt his 17 Random E. Trads and has no intention of ever learning any more, and partly because of his moronic ideas on human migration.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:45 AM

Again, you are all over the place, S. E.g., when I light-heartedly suggested you take up the English cittern, with your imagined "starling feather," you responded with disgust that I should tell you what to choose - and now I am "moronic" for not giving into your "urging" re. choice of repertoire. There's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use - we disagree widely on both. And, for what it's worth, defending is becoming too repetitive/tiresome for me to bother here much more.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:04 AM

Blimey SoP
You actually know David?
I didn't think he was a real person!
And David
"Defending is becoming too repetitive (sic)/ Tiresome (sic) for me to bother here much more."
Wise decision old chap.
Quit while you're winning, always the best policy I think.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:42 AM

and now I am "moronic" for not giving into your "urging" re. choice of repertoire.

It's your ideas on immigration that are moronic, WAV not you. And you can sing whatever you like - just a shame you don't accept that others may do likewise and feel the need to promote an ideology which amounts to a cultural prohibition. My feeling is that you are ideally placed as an English born person naturalised in Australia to perform from the rich tradition of English Folk Songs in the Australian Tradition. You have the accent, and, like the songs, you are very much a part of both cultures.   

defending is becoming too repetitive/tiresome for me to bother here much more.

You publish such bullshit you should be prepared to defend it. Where's the courage of your convictions? Point is, that even when the gaping factual errors (and downright lies) in your arguments are pointed out, you refuse to address them, or even account for them. Again, this isn't personal, WAV - this is directed at your Published Work.

You actually know David? I didn't think he was a real person!

He's real enough, Ralphie - and as thoroughly decent a cove as you might ever wish to meet, making many fine contributions to singarounds we've shared over the years. My difficulty is squaring the gentleman he is in real life with the raving fascist ideologue he becomes on-line.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:05 AM

Hey SoB (not going to try and type it...Will SonOfaB***h do? lol!!)
I'm sure that David is pleasant enough in real life, and so many of us have tried to engage with him on line....Including the likes of Jim Moray and Eliza Carthy....and many many other real professional musos.
I have huge amounts of empathy for those who want to explore the great diversity that is the tradition. (Choose Country here).
It's just that David just doesn't get it. Endlessly banging on about obscure instruments...etc etc etc...
Take him on one side if you get the chance. Tell him that we don't hate him as a person, but. If he continues in the same vein. he will become a pariah.
There are a lot of patient people out here, But that patience is being sorely tested.
Please tell him to get a life, and join in with the rest of us, in this wonderful world of music dance and song.
Nobody hates WAV. But at least he should listen to advice.
It is your mission...should you choose to accept it....!!!!

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:24 AM

"raving fascist ideologue" (S) there you go again; you used to repeat "racist" and "xenophobe", but, aware that recently there has been an antifascist thread, you are focusing on "fascist"; that is far dirtier tactic than me asking whether you ever consider trying again to get a degree in some DISCIPLINE. One last time, and I'm off - fascism derives from an authoritarian Italian party opposed to communism; on other occasions, you have criticised me for my opposition to capitalism - in a democratic way.

(P.S: if there is a post under "Guest WalkaboutsVerse" folks, it is NOT from me - yes, someone on Mudcat has resorted to that tactic in the past.)

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:38 AM

Sorry, you're going WAV. If you want to understand Englishness, try:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:48 AM

WAV - a Fascist is someone who believes that humanity might only thrive when subjected to the repressive regime of a supreme authority. In all your published writings this is what we see, and that is what I question. A Racist is someone who believes humanity should be segregated by ethnicity and that all immigration / emigration curtailed in fear of cultural and ethnic contamination. In your published writings this is what we see, and that is what I question. These aren't dirty tactics, they are honest criticisms and evaluations of your Published Ideas - which you can only answer by resorting to personal insult.

If you say (as you do) that:

Folk music IS meant to be local/regional/national. Our forebears were loyal to this when they formed the English Folk Dance and Song Society, as have been contemporary Scots by forming a Degree in Scottish Traditional Music. Further, I'm told several of our earliest folk-clubs strongly encouraged participants to select from their own culture

what else am I to think other than here is a man who believes in a supreme dictatorial authority to curtail what he obviously regards as extreme recalcitrance (one of your favourite words) in the UK Folk Scene? Likewise:

World-music stalls and stages should be places where folkies of different nationality present different unfused music to each other.

An English octogenarian has told me that at school - whilst one or two Scottish dances were learnt - at least 90% of their dancing was English Country Dance.

If folkies must test their technique by improvising on/"doing something with" a traditional tune, then, in my opinion, they should begin their performance with a run-through of just the top-line melody – otherwise, there would be no oral-tradition of tunes! Alternatively, they could try the composer or sacred music of their nation, as well as its folk-tunes.

As I've said in verse, English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

All these statements are as culturally dictatorial as they are inaccurate - they all run contrary to cultural reality; they are your somewhat idiosyncratic interpretations of things you don't really understand turned into quite disturbing absolutes. How else am I meant to understand the author of such odious inhumane bullshit other than as a fascist? You are sold on your own righteousness on things you clearly know nothing about; year in, year out, you repeat the same weary old rhetoric, as life flows on, and culture with it.

You've been told how in error you are regarding English Country Dancing; and I'll tell you that 98% of what I do musically is pure improvisation, even in the singing of E. Trads. That's how I do things musically - I improvise, therefore I am. This doesn't effect the oral-tradition, as far as it exists, or ever existed at all, pre, post, or neo-revival. These things aren't written in stone; they are fluid, things change, they move on, the essence of all is the organic process of becoming in which all things exist - folk music included.

As for English Culture taking a hammering - this, I fear, is the Big One - the one you've never accounted for other than to point out that England was a more English place 50 years ago... So what's it all about, WAV? How is English Culture taking a hammering? And how are we suffering as a result?

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Ralphie.
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:31 AM

SoB..
What I find quite creepy is this eternal reference to "E-Trads".
What the F*** does he mean by that term?
A Song is A Song. A Tune is a Tune.
END!
As Elizas dad once said, "The only way you can damage the tradition is by not performing it"
No restrictions...Anything goes...Hip-Hop, Rap, Dub Reggae, Sweet Innocence...all is included, along with every other national culture that brings such richness to our little island.
English Culture taking a hammering?? I don't think so.
After 30 years of me banging on about the music we love, we are finally seeing a huge movement of people (kids especially), embracing the whole oevre with laughter and talent.
Let WAV sink. He obviously will never get it. He's just wrapped up in his sad little dream world. And we can't change that can we?
SoP...Happy to meet you down the line somewhere for a pint.
Don't bother bringing your mate!
Respect to you Ralphie

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 12:04 PM

Quote from WAV.

"P.S: if there is a post under "Guest WalkaboutsVerse" folks, it is NOT from me - yes, someone on Mudcat has resorted to that tactic in the past."

And your point being?.....Are we supposed to start caring?
My identity has been cloned by the BNP on several occasions now, hence my appearance as a Guest on Mudcat.
When will you get the message WAV? Your sweet, but untimately pathetic pontifications about citterns and other stuff is an entry point for some seriously dangerous people.
I'd re-install your firewall if I where you.
The guys and gals here on Mudcat are not your enemies..
But there are a lot of dangerous and violent people out there. who also share your views...They just do it with knives and guns.
You seem like a nice chap with a perspective on life that you believe in. Fine.
Keep your bloody head down man.
It's scary out there in the real world.