'Are you SURE you wrote that?'

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:11 AM

Ralph McTell's "Streets Of London" is Pachelbel's Canon.
Strange, when I hear 'Streets of London' I thing of Beethoven's 'Ode to Joy'

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: BobKnight
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:05 AM

Tramps and Hawkers/Hatton Woods/I Pity The Poor Immigrant(Dylan)
Scots Wha Hae/Land O' The leal
Goodnight Irene/Ramblin Round

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM

Bob Dylan's Dream / Lord Franklin (I believe the melody is older than both of them.)
With God on Our Side / The Patriot Game

No stealing there; Dylan generally gave credit for the melodies he lifted (which practice, as others have noted, is as old as folk music).

Paul Simon also visited/studied with Martin Carthy.

The Pachelbel's Canon melody has been used as the melodic basis for many subsequent songs.

When performers copyright songs that use melodies and/or lyrics from older songs, what's copyrighted is their performance and their arrangement (if there is any difference from the earlier). In such cases, the earlier song is not removed from the public domain. The original song, lyrics, and melody are still in the public domain and may be performed freely. It's only the new arrangement that's protected.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:39 AM

The Patriot Game, as Dominic Behan never denied, used one of the better-known tunes of The Bold Grenadier.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: JohnH
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:39 PM

About 100 years ago I helped to run a Trad. English club. I got a letter from the PRS requesting a rake-off. I wrote back that all the songs were of "Ancient or Anonymous authorship so go away..". They suggested that the people who collected should benefit. When I asked "Why..." they stopped writing.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:21 PM

We had a 'local' PRS person turn up at Tudor Folk some years back so we religiously filled in his form - Lyrics/music by Performer , or Trad arr performer - Never saw him again !

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:19 AM

I refer people to Kipling's poem, "When 'Omer Smote 'Is Bloomin' Lyre"

I will likewise mention that Alan Sherman was regularly sued by singers whose best known songs he had parodied. Harry Bellefonte, was, apparently, one of the first. Sherman parodied his song "Matilda" as "My Zelda". Afterwards, whenever Bellefonte sang "Matilda", someone in the audience would shout "Zelda". I can see why he wouldn't be happy about that.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:27 AM

Has anyone mentioned The Recruited Collier / Sweet Thames Flow Softly - both great songs with pretty similar melodies (as someone pointed out on another thread, - sorry can't remember which)

I sometimes think that what makes a lot of folk songs so great is that they are almost like musical archetypes in a way - I believe that's why they resonate so deeply within (some of) us & hence often get knowingly or unknowingly copied from time to time.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 04:06 AM

Now pay attention!....

This one first...


..and then go here!

Just thought I'd turn you on to that.

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 05:00 AM

"Roseville" Fair and "Good to See You" by Allan Taylor seem to be remarkably similar.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 07:51 AM

When I hear 'Streets of London' - I think 'Streets of London'.....

Blessed are the simple, for they shall be simplified....

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Can o' Worms
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 09:54 AM

Samuel, oh how you've changed....

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 03:43 PM

astonishing!

More.......this is amazing!


More to come!

GfS

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 03:58 PM

..even more.....this is really something....

........looks like somebody's workin' too hard!

I've often heard that 'Coldplay' was notorious for this, but 'Avril LaViegne' and 'Green Day' are even worse!

There's More!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 05:44 PM

"And of course there's always "I'm Thinking Tonight of My Blue Eyes"/"Great Speckled Bird"/"Wild Side of Life"/"It Wasn't God Who Made Honky-Tonk Angels", and whatever else uses that approximate tune."

The Prisoner's Song: If I Had The Wings of an Angel, oe'r these prison bars I would fly..."
Probably the first recorded of that tune.

The reasonable answer is pretty simple. Tunes are recycled all the time. Even lyric themes in different forms. When a song is folk-like, by definition it is familiar. When it is sophisticated like as in a show song, then it isn't automatically familiar and takes some getting used to as an entity. For example, Jerome Kern's "All The Things You Are". One would be hard put to find an antecedent of this tune. The same can be said for Cole Porter's songs or Stephen Sondheim's or George Gershwin's. In the arena of popular music from the 60's on, folk melodies found their way into the radio songs. This means that their popularity was based on their familiarity which came about because those tunes had been heard before in other songs. A lot of this was the result of BMI (Bad Music Incorporated) which came about as a broadcasters rebellion against ASCAP wanting to raise their rates for airplay. Folk-like tunes which didn't come under ASCAP jurisdiction were used freely. (BMI actually means Broadcast Music Incorporated as contrasted from
ASCAP (American Society ofComposers, Authors, Publishers).

A song as an entity requires a uniqueness that transcends lyrics and melodies. Even though Woody probably recycled the tune for "Ludlow Massacre", that song remains unique enough to have motivated Howard Zinn to activism

In short, when it comes to tunes, who cares? Lyrics define the mood and feeling of a unique song which is amplified by an appropriate tune. An original folk tune is a red-herring.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 08:01 PM

LukeKellyLives mentioned Loch Lomond and Calton Weaver: I didn't see the resemblance at first, probably because they are so different rhythmically, but yes, more or less same sequence of notes: but Red is the Rose is pretty well identical to Loch Lomond.
Anyone else noticed that the first four notes of Flower of Scotland are the same as the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's Nabucco? (And when playing Scotland v Italy the Italian national anthem is like a Verdi aria!)
Even closer to Pachelbel's Canon is the intro to Ivan Drever's "Long December Night".
Another one to the same tune as Star of the County Down is Van Diemen's Land.
Several songs to same tune: Puir Roving Lassie/Kind Hearts and Companions/Green Grow the Laurels (the latter being sung to a variety of different tunes)
"Groovy Kind of Love": straight from a Clementi sonatina.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:32 AM

Which Van Dieman's Land vesrion would that be? The one that comes to my mind [Harry Cox's?] is to same tune as Gallant Frigate Amphitryte/Painful Plough.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:56 PM

Starts "Come all you gallant poachers": see
http://www.contemplator.com/england/vland.html

HOWEVER: the tune in this link is NOT the one I know: but it does say in the notes in the L-hand column that it is sung to a number of different tunes - adn the version I know IS "Star of the County Down" tune - identical!

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:09 PM

See and hear here: Barbara Dickson's voice, I think. (Van Diemen's Land)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Uk7K3lve0

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Genie
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 10:24 PM

GFS, thanks for those hilarious links.   Yeah, it's interesting how often the same chord pattern pops up in so many songs.

But it's quite possible for two very different melodies to have the same chord pattern. That's what "partner songs" and canticles, etc., are about.   "Bill Bailey" and "Just Because" are such songs; they can be superimposed on each other but they are hardly the same tunes. Same goes for the duets Irving Berlin did, such as "Play A Simple Melody" and "I Want To Listen To Rag" or "I Wonder Why" and "You're Just In Love." "It's A Sin To Tell A Lie" and "Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter" - another two very different songs that have the same chord pattern and can be done as a duet.

Come to think of it, how many really different chord patterns are there in blues songs? Or country/western?   Yes, many times the tunes themselves are identical or nearly so. But many more times, the same chord patterns underlie melodies that are not even close to being the same.


And, Stringsinger, the tunes I've heard for The Prisoner Song are not the same as Honky-Tonk Angels / Great Speckled Bird / etc. But I'm not surprised if sometimes that tune is used for The Prisoner Song; it fits well.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:11 PM

Genie, Thanks for your reply. I agree with you about the chord patterns, Most common, of course, is 1,4,5(blues) but also a lot in folk and country. Another is 6,2,5,1, the pattern for 'Autumn Leaves', and many many standards, but it also is in 'Alice's Restaurant'.
I just put one together, for a quick gig that started with 1,4,5, then went into the 6,2,5,1..just for good 'measure'..(no pun intended). The melodies are done in a way that the chords are not as detectable, but the listener's ear will draw to what 'should' be heard next, so you accommodate that..but later pop in a 9th or 11th...and it really puts a little 'musical surprise' into the melody. Try it..(my gift to ya'). Actually you can add lot's of different stuff, to mix the melody around a little!

Also, 'Every Breath You Take'(I'll Be Watching You') by the 'Police', the chord pattern is just old 'doo-wop'...with the 9th's added to it!
Have fun with that one! (I don't play it).

Anyway, Best Wishes To You!

GfS

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:41 AM

Tattie ~~ many thanks for that beautiful Van Dieman's Land.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: oldstrings
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:03 AM

"I once sent Peter Yarrow the lyrics to this poem I found, called "The Lover's Task", Sugesting that he and the trio (Peter Paul and Mary) should record it. His reply was: "Riddle songs are out." A few years later these two kids who called themselves Tom and Jerry, changed their name to Simon and Garfunkle and recorded the song as Scarborough Fair. And yes PS takes credit for it."

Sharmagne, there are a number of riddle songs similar to Scarborough Fair, and several versions of Scarborough Fair. Paul Simon learned the version he recorded (minus the added bit sung by Garfunkel) from Martin Carthy. I was present at the time; Carthy and Simon were living in the same house.

Sidney Carter wrote Lord of the Dance to the tune of the Shaker hymn
Simple Gifts, and I don't recall him acknowledging the source. He may have learned the tune from Aaron Copland's "Rodeo". Copland, however, did identify Simple Gifts as his own source.