'Are you SURE you wrote that?'

Subject: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:13 AM

I was thinking about Folk melodies that have been rewritten (& copyrighted) by writers in the field of Rock &/or contemporary popular music.From Elvis singing "Love Me Tender" (Aurie Lee"),Bob Dylan's "Blowin' In The Wind" ("No More Auction Block")& "Masters Of War"("Nottmun Town")John Lennon's "Happy Christmas (War Is Over) which,melodically is,to all intents, & purposes "Stewball"
A mention should also be made of George Harrison who wrote "Behind that Locked Door" a song whose meter & chord changes both owe a debt to "On Top of Old Smokie"
A (relatively) more recent example might be "Belfast Child" by Simple Minds which is yet another rewrite of "She Walks Through The Fair"
I was wondering how many other examples others might be able to think of?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:01 AM

Seven Drunken Nights/Seven Deadly Sins

Woman from Wexford/Old Orange Flute

Drunken Sailor/Oro 'Se Do Bheatha 'Bhaile

Tramps and Hawkers/Paddy West/England's Motor/etc

Bold Fenian Men/The Blackbird (rarely heard version of The Blackbird)/Next Market Day (kinda)

Night Visiting Song/I'm a Rover

Roddy McCorley/Sean South

Napoleon Crossing The Mountains/The Hot Asphalt

Calton Weaver/Loch Lomond

Star of the County Down/Crooked Jack

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:39 AM

Work your way through Dominic Behan's two songbooks and you'll find he copyrighted everything.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:06 AM

Most of Bob Dylans early stuff was based on English folksongs, a lot of which he got from Martin Carthy.

eric

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:12 AM

I wrote Seven Deadly Sins and it has nothing in common, lyrically or musically, with Seven Drunkan Nights except fot the word 'Seven'.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:16 AM

Ah.. the hardest thing to hear is someone singing a song you wrote and claiming it as their own... been there, done that, spilled my beer over the thieving bastard.

I see an awful lot of 'trad. arr by ***' and can live with that, but I also see a lot of trad tunes wholly claimed by composers. The theory is that they are copyrighting the arrangement and/or harmonization they have added. These harmonies may bear a striking resemblance to those traditionally sung to that tune, but unless someone else has written them down and claimed copyright, they are up for grabs. I think it sad that some composers don't feel secure enough that they can credit a traditional tune, but it's been going on for centuries.

LTS

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM

'Tis exactly as you say LTS.Many a classical composer has used the same process. I was thinking of the likes of Paul Simon who seems to have moments where he genuinely half-believes that he wrote both "Scarborough Fair" & "Silent Night"
Chuck Berry's "My Ding-a-Ling" (Pretty much "Little Brown Jug")
Does anybody know if the Beach Boys ever claimed credit for "Sloop John B"? Works of that ilk.
Any more examples?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM

Why waste a good tune on one song?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:29 AM

Contrariwise,why waste a good tune on one writer's avarice?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM

Contrariwise, why not recognise that copyright only subsists in an original work, albeit that that maybe an arrangement, and that reproduction without the arrangement of the work that is subjected to the arrangement is not a reproduction of the arrangement.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

Fair comment Richard and to give credit where it is due The Beatles only copyrighted their arrangement of "Maggie Mae"
Not all writers are that honest though.It would be nice if they were.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Stower
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:55 AM

Richard, this may be me being thick, but could you explain "and that reproduction without the arrangement of the work that is subjected to the arrangement is not a reproduction of the arrangement" please?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:16 AM

Yes, Sir Humphrey, please do    :-)

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 11:47 AM

The Tune that Will Not Die: Rosin the Bow/Men of the West/Lincoln & Liberty/Love Me, I'm a Liberal/Acres of Clams/etc. etc.

"Tramps & Hawkers"--also "Wind that Shakes the Corn"

"Wayfaring Stranger"--"Silver Dagger" (almost)

"Marching Through Georgia"--"Orange and the Green"

Old Crow Medicine Show's "Tear it Down"--"Pig Ankle Rag"

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:45 PM

These melodies have been reworked since the year one-the first question really is, how do you define what the essential melody is, and the second is, what constitues a significant enough change to make it a different melody?

Then there is the follow-up question, why does it make any difference?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:09 PM

I didn't think anyone said it did make any difference, only that it's interesting to see where the tunes crop up.

Personally, I think it takes a pretty significant change in melody, but that's the kind of thing that goes on an example-by-example basis.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM

Guest 01:45PM,I feel unqualified to answer your first two questions as to your follow-up,well a lot of people talk of the folk process as defunct but I'm not convinced. I think it has had to change radically to accomodate technological/social/cultural/legal changes but nevertheless I think it still exists.I was/am mainly curious to see if examples/evidence of this could be identified in contemporary music.Also interested in related issues around ownership of the "end" product.Nothing deeper than that :-)

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Bernard
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:18 PM

Leo Sayer's 'When I Need You' (Written by Carol Jill Bayer Sager / Albert Louis Hammond) is a rip-pff from Leonard Cohen's 'Famous Blue Raincost'... even in the same key!

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Leo
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:26 PM

Is it bollock!

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:35 PM

To the person who wrote Seven Deadly Sins:

I apologize if I offended you, they just sound an awful lot alike to me. I'm not saying they're exactly alike as the others on my list, just that they do sound alike. Same with The Old Orange Flute and Woman From Wexford. Again, I apologize if I offended you, and you did a nice job with the song. It's a favorite of mine. I just think Luke should have sang it for The Dubliners instead of Ronnie.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Shaneo
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM

Here is another 'John O'Dreams' made famous by Christy Moore , words and music by Bill Caddick , or so he says, but the tune is from Tchaikovsky's sixth symphony.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Bernard
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM

Bill Caddick never makes any secret of the origin of the tune - it's Christy Moore who must have it wrong...!

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM

There's something Shania Twain does that is a bit like the Norman Greenbaum hit "Spirit int he Sky" - but not so good.

Right. SImple explanation.

Take a public domain melody (say Greensleeves). No copyright.

Make an arrangement that is sufficiently substantial to amount to a copyright work. (say Bluesleeves - most of you know it, right - Cliff Aungier?). THE COPYRIGHT WORK IS THE ARRANGEMENT, NOT THE ORIGINAL. The question is whether the arrangement is sufficiently substantial to amount to a copyright work. It is not "how many notes are changed".

Record Bluesleeves - infringment of the copyright of Cliff Aungier.

Record Greensleeves - no infringment of the Cliff Aungier arrangement. No infringment of anything.

Make your own arrangement of Greensleeves (without COPYING, consciously or unconsciously, Bluesleeves). Your arrangement does not infringe the copyright of Cliff Aungier.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:45 PM

The folk process is NOT defunct. (You may be more likely to get sued, but I assure you, it's not defunct.)

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:59 PM

There is a story that Beethoven was hired by some aristocrat who was having a musical evening for a bunch of his equally aristocratic friends—a good paying gig for the always broke Beethoven. But when Beethoven arrived, he found that another musician-composer and his string quartet had also been hired, and thinking that he was to be the only one that evening (and being his natural, cranky, egotistical self), he got highly steamed. So when the string quartet finish playing the other composer's piece and it was Beethoven's turn, he put his own composition aside, walked over to the second violinist's music stand, picked up a piece of sheet music from it, went to the piano, and sat down. He took the piece of sheet music and turned it upside-down. He played the part—upside-down—(Victor Borge does a funny schtick with something like this), then proceeded, using the upside-down second violinist's part, to improvised brilliantly for about an hour. Left the audience and his patron thoroughly entertained and highy amazed.

Beethoven was a real smart-ass. But what makes me love the guy was that he could bring it off!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:00 PM

Thanks for the apology, LukeKellylives. However there is no comparison to either the words or the melody to seven Drunken Nights. The words and the theme are entireley different and again the melody has nothing in common. I'm glad you like it and I appreciate your kind response but please listen again. PS. I wrote it on request from the Dubliners (I was their road manager at the time). It was a deliberate follow up to 7 D N and it was decided that Ronnie should sing it. Slan, Jim.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:05 PM

Geeze, I think I'm gonna stop writing, I'm afraid that there'll be no more tunes left to put to the words I wrote & that any tune I can come up with, I'll find out later it won't be my own. What to do!

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:09 PM

Barry it is proverbial that "True genius steals". ;-)

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:11 PM

Jim:

Glad no hard feelings are left! I'll listen to it again in a bit, I haven't heard it in a while. It's cool that you were their manager; must've been great fun.

All the Best,

Christian C.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM

Oops, sorry.
I was worried for years that I was going to be jumped on for getting my recorder and guitar groups to play an arrangement of a tune claimed by a modern composer as his copyright, but which I was sure was traditional. I changed one note in the melody, I think, but with my ostinatos and counterpoints drowning it, I reckoned it was fair dealing.

And now I know it was traditional. I didn't have to worry. But how did he get to have his copyright line on a melodic line in an anthology of popular tunes?

Penny

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Louie Roy
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:53 PM

Law suit over these two songs back in the late 30s or early 40s
1st one was When She wore a Tulip A big yellow Tulip And I wore a big red rose.
2nd one a couple of years later When she drove a buick a big yellow buick and I drove a little red ford.i can't remember who wrote each song but the person who wrote the little red ford won the suit by changing the word to little red ford instead of big red ford

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:09 PM

"When Johnny comes marching home again/Ghost riders in the sky" would be my favourite examples of answering the thread's original question. With the long and broad exposure to traditional song and bush poetry I've had, I felt I had to avoid any of the Anglo/Saxon/Celtic forms when I felt the urge to write, so that I didn't resurrect something from the recesses of my memory and think it my own creation.

So I mostly write haiku. My complete and utter lack of tunesmithing ability is not compromised by haiku; just as well, I suspect! But, even though I may write on bush poem themes, the bush poets don't seem to want to recognise haiku. Sigh!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:57 PM

The principle of intellectual property matters for a few reasons, but that principle is enforced by the courts. The office that registers copyrights does not vet the originality of a work.

The holding of a copyright can make a significant financial difference.

A public domain song may be avoided by some who learn of a copyright related to the song, either because the public domain status of the song is not known or because of fear of a potential lawsuit.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:40 AM

Thanks for the apology, LukeKellylives. However there is no comparison to either the words or the melody to seven Drunken Nights.

Wrote Jim

I agree although it's some time since I listened but from memory I get bits of Rosin the Bow in my head thinking of the 7 deadly sins. Although that's such a well used tune it crops up all over the place

Any way to add

Jack Orion/Donald where's your troosers

(I'm sure that Bert Lloyd openly admitted that's where he got the tune)

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:00 AM

We are an Island...a song about Cape Breton, sounds very much like the Richard Farina tune for Birmingham Sunday. I forget who wrote the CB song or what the actual title is but for   years I kept wondering where I had heard the tune before. Am I right or is it just my imagination ? Both great songs by the way.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:22 AM

There was a recent thread--I can't come up with the title--on hit songs that incorporated folk songs. Some of the songs submitted there might fit. Anyway, this is a good thread for discussion.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:22 AM

I agree with Jim McLean that there's not a lot of similarity between Seven Drunken Nights and Seven Deadly Sins, apart from the number in the title, and the fact that the Dubliners only mention 5 of each in the actual songs :-)

As for Woman from Wexford/Ould Orange Flute, I don't think they're all that similar, either (at least, in the Dubliners' versions). Ould Orange Flute is usually sung to the tune "Villikins and his Dinah", which is used for a lot of other songs (Threshing Machine springs to mind) - but not Woman from Wexford, AFAIK. [Sorry, LukeKellyLive (Chris) - not having a go at you, just saying what I think about these songs!]

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 12:38 PM

It is not rare for a composer or songwriter to be struck with a melodic inspiration and then to wonder who wrote that melody. I believe that Paul McCartney in an interview has told of waking up with one of his now-famous melodies, playing it on the piano, and asking who wrote it.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 12:44 PM

That's true Guest, the song became "Yesterday" McCartney's caution might be explained by reference to the fact that that song's chord changes are very close to those of "Georgia on My Mind."

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Songster Bob
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

"The Tune that Will Not Die: Rosin the Bow/Men of the West/Lincoln & Liberty/Love Me, I'm a Liberal/Acres of Clams/etc. etc."

Love Me, I'm a Liberal? Rosin the Beau? I don't hear that at all.
Similarly, to me the parallel between Johnny Comes Marching Home and Ghost Riders doesn't extend much past the second line (though it is pretty close there, I agree -- time signature notwithstanding). And everyone says that This Land comes from Darling, Pal of Mine, but that's true for only the first line of the tune.

Richard Farina's Birmingham Sunday is The Week Before Easter (She's Gone to be Wed to Another) is Dancing at Whitsun is ...

My problem with writing tunes is that I start with something that sounds nice, but my analytical side says, "What tune is that?" and bingo! now I'm playing the tune it resembles in some manner, and the original tune I was creating now has vanished into the cranial bitbucket, never to be remembered. Sigh.


Bob

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:57 PM

Picky, picky.

Love Me, I'm a Liberal? Rosin the Beau? I don't hear that at all. The beginning and the ends of the verses are pretty clearly "Rosin the Bow", even though he pulls it out of shape in the middle.

As for "This Land is Your Land"/"Darling Pal of Mine"--they are not identical and the emphasis is different because the words are different, but they are very close, especially if you go back and listen to the old Carter Family versions.

Haven't we been talking about all this on that folk process thread?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:15 PM

I mentioned on a thread somewhere else that I wrote a song calle 'Ghost Tigers in the Sky' and the tune started off as 'John Anderson My Jo John' whence Ghost Riders in the Sky and of course When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:26 PM

Thomas Moore (my favourite writer) was known for putting his own lyrics to some fairly standard tunes of the day. Thanks to his efforts those tunes are still with us.
Guest: "We are an Island" is known as "A rock in the Stream" in Cape Breton and "The Island" by others.
Jim Mclean: Where can I hear "Seven Deadly Sins"?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:40 PM

this is a load of cobblers.

the chord changes to Manchester Rambler, Singing in the Rain, Jambalaya, and One Man went to Mow are all the same

G then D7 and then back again. If you're playing the wrong chord - then you should be playing the other one.

It doesn't prove any sort of relationship. and to be honest, I had never connected half of these songs with ones with which they are being linked. They are different songs.

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM

JimLad:

With Jim McLean's permission, I'd be glad to send you the MP3 of The Dubliners' version of it.

Would you mind, Jim (McLean)?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:24 PM

Go for it. I can take him! [e-mail]

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:46 AM

I wrote one that I was excited to share with a friend. After listening to a short piece of it my friend John informed me that I had inadvertently used a Hank Williams melody, Cold Cold Heart, to back my lyrics. As soon as he mentioned it to me it I realized the same. Why had I not heard this before?

The strange thing is that, although I probably own everything written by Hank, I rarely get the opportunity to listen to his music or any of the vast amount of recorded music that I have at my disposal. I don't even have a vehicle that has a functional radio. So, I get very little exposure to his or anyone else's music.

My question is, how did Hank's melody become so dominant in my mind as to find it's way into my creative processes as I wrote the words to my song and escape my attention entirely?

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:46 AM

LukeKellylives, I don't mind atall but the copyright belongs to Carlin Music so I don't have any say in the matter. Cheers

Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

Law suit over these two songs back in the late 30s or early 40s
1st one was When She wore a Tulip A big yellow Tulip And I wore a big red rose.
2nd one a couple of years later When she drove a buick a big yellow buick and I drove a little red ford.i can't remember who wrote each song but the person who wrote the little red ford won the suit by changing the word to little red ford instead of big red ford

I know nothing of the particular lawsuit, nor what the defense was, but it seems clear to me that a powerful defense here would be that the song "Big Yellow Buick" is a parody of "When she Wore a Tulip". As I understand it, parodies are permissible use of copyrighted material.

Of course I could be wrong. (A handsome admission, if I ever heard one.)

Dave Oesterreich