BS: Flag burning......yes or no?

Subject: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:43 PM

I read today where the H of R passed an amendment to the constitution to protect the US flag from public desecration. It still needs to be passed by the senate (and it has a better chance of passing this time than any other time before) in order for it to go to the states for ratification. 38 states need to vote in favor of in order for it to become an amendment. Where do you personally stand on the issue?

As far as I'm concerned:

Even though I love this country as much as I do, I cannot bring myself to support this amendment. I certainly understand both sides of the situation but as an American, my pride (the good kind) lies within and not within a fabric symbol that flies at the top of a long metal pole.

I differ with many of my family and friends on this subject and am often the center of many debates among my brothers and me. (Sort of like here on the Cat.)

I fly the flag at my home. I have had flag stickers on my vehicles. I love the flag of this country. I love for what it stands for and love the fact that at just the sight of it it brings many different emotions to the forefront. I was moved to tears when other countries presented the colors of the USA and played the National Anthem after 9/11. The pride of being American is a large part of my life.

All of the reasons listed above are why I cannot support this amendment. I believe in the right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Even those who I do not agree with have a right and a duty to speak up for what they do not agree with. If they feel that burning the flag is what they need to do in order to express how they feel, then by all means, burn two of them if it makes them feel better and to help to get their message across.

I apologize in advance to anybody that may be offended but realize this about me....

You're never going to catch me burning the flag of the country that I love so much. It does hold a special place in my heart because many of my and Susu's family have defended that flag and some have even died for the many values that the same flag stands for.

It has been a struggle for me, to say the least, to reconcile those beliefs with the beliefs of which I'm currently trying to communicate to each of you.

But that is where I fall and stand firm.


What about you?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:51 PM

A flag is at worst just a piece of fabric, and at best just a silly little symbol... What is more important is addressing the issues that lead people to WANT to BURN the flag in the first place... just saying flag burning is illegal is pointless and 'head-in-the-sand-ism'

Too much Jingoisim...

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:55 PM

Well SH - I'm a bit suprised. From my preconceived notions of where you stand politically I would have figured you to have a different opinion. But I agree with your views 100 percent. { Remember this day - it may never happen again }. I couldn't agree with you more. A well written post.

I'm not a flag burner and I fly the flag often. But if we start pasing laws against it - who knows where it will end ? Maybe we'll have to have an "approved" translation of the bible next.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:10 PM

I don't see the point of flag burning. Never burned one in my life. Laws won't make flag burning go away. So why write a law that's meaningless? Makes no sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:17 PM

The Flag that must be protected by force deserves no respect.

Its like proposals to supress free speech in order to improve security, ie replace one good thing with two bad things.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM

Another bad idea from the Republican held congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:30 PM

Flags don't get desecrated by being burnt. They get desecrated when they are used to propagate oppression and intolerance, and turned into a symbol of those things.

For example the BNP try to do that all the time with the English Flag of Saint George and the Union Flag. I'm sure there are equivalent ways in which those kind of people over in America "desecrate" the Stars and Stripes.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:31 PM

Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. It's already overcrowded from your dirty little war.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:31 PM

Good for you, SH.

I have to admit, I was a bit surprised at your wholly reasonable and intellectually consistent stance on this issue. It's a position I share, one that should NOT have to do with whether one is "left" or "right" wing, but one which so many unthinking rightist "patriot" types cannot seem to understand.

I have no interest in burning the flag, but I neither do I have a wish to prosecute or punish anyone who chooses to do so.

Most of the instances of flag-desecration that I have witnessed turned out to the work of provocateurs, such as the undercover agents trying to stir up trouble at the Democratic Convention in Chicago in 1968. None of the "real" antiwar activists had any interest in burning flags, but the powers-that-were seemed to need an excuse to step in and start busting heads, and what better to portray the demonstrators as hateful and anti-American than to stage some highly visible flag-burnings?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:35 PM

Well said, all. Wesley, I couldn't have said it better. I was a bit surprised, too.:-)

If people can wear it on their ass as a bikini or shorts, burning it as a statement, presumably of much more serious import, seems much more meaningful and should be anyone's right.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM

In the 60s you could get Rizla skins printed with the Star Spangled Banner. It was fun burning those.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM

SRS,

"Another bad idea from the Republican held congress."


I hope that you realize that quite a few of the democrats had to vote for this as well. It passed by more than the 2/3 majority needed to continue. Quite a few democratic senators will need to vote for this also. It looks as if that might happen.


harpgirl,

"Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. It's already overcrowded from your dirty little war."

Why are you always so bitter? From your picture, I have seen a woman who might be a good person to get to know. You have a friendly face. It's really a shame that you have to act like this in order to make yourself look good in the faces of your other "extremist" buddies that share these pages. But that's just my opinion. I may be wrong.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:43 PM

I think Larry Flint wore it best when he was in court

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:46 PM

It's a shame that people find it surprising that someone who dresses politically on the right should demonstrate respect for the principles on which your country is supposed to be built on.

Issues of principle like this should unite Americans left and right, regardless of how they differ on other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:58 PM

The problem is not of burning or not burning the flag. It is now a difficulty of how does one NOT vote for a law like that. Imagine next election (not that I think there will be one): "This candidate voted against a law that would protect the American flag. What does THAT say about him/her and his/her view of America and all we hold dear?"

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:01 PM

Hubby - You may not have heard it befoe but the flag decal comment from Harpgirl is a direct quote from a John Prine song. It was on his first LP. And it refers to the Viet Nam era - but I think some of the same issues apply.

And you're right. A bad idea can cross over from one political party to another. The GOP doesn't own this one - but it does seem to be in the forefront.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:09 PM

OK - Here's something that hacks me off. If Toby Keith HAS to run around with an American flag painted on his guitar - why does it have to be a Takamine ? Wasn't there ANY American guitar builder that was able to do it ? And I'm willing to bet he thinks we're sending too many American jobs overseas.

I have this image in my head of some Japanese guitar builder asking - "OK - I've painted a red stripe and a white srripe. What comes next ? Red again ??"

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:41 PM

We have too gaddamned many stupid, useless laws already. What is the point in this one? "With Liberty and Justice for all"...this is what the flag supposedly represents.

If the flag truly represented that, then there would be much more respect for it. Passing another damned law will certainly not increase respect.

We have bullies in power and they want to show everyone how tough they are. Take away a little bit of Freedom of Expression today, a bit more tomorrow, some more next week, etc. Soon there will be none left to take away.

"We are become like sheep to the slaughter."

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:42 PM

I believe it was Clinton Hammond, out of the depths of his wisdom, who stated as a fact:

A flag is at worst just a piece of fabric, and at best just a silly little symbol...

Two statements there. The "at worst" is of course correct.

But "at best" it's an impressive BIG symbol, to many, many people.

To Clinton it's "just a silly little symbol", I suppose. If, indeed, Clinton is really stating his own feelings and not just trolling. But neither of those makes it "at best just a silly little symbol."

Symbols, for good or ill, are powerful things, both to the individuals who hold certain meanings attached to the symbols and to the public at large. Symbols move individuals; symbols move social groups; symbols move public policy.

No "silly little" there, regardless whether you attach the same meaning to the symbol that others do.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:45 PM

I would never burn the flag, but I don't believe a law should be passed making it a crime to burn it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:46 PM

Actually to use the term "desecrate" in relation to a national flag strikes me as pretty close to blasphemy. Flags are not sacred, nor are nations.

You might feel they are worthy of respect, but never that they are things that should be treated as having religious status. And I'd have thought that that would be something which religious people ought to agree about, again regardless of politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: gnomad
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:54 PM

On the east side of the pond we are more (but not totaly) relaxed about treatment of flags, including our own.

So far be it from me to add oil to your fire, but I'm sure I have read that you statesiders have a law , possibly known as the flag code(?) which states that a flag which is no longer fit for use should be destroyed in a dignified way, by burning for choice. I realise this is slightly different from what you are discussing, but can anyone confirm or deny this?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM

Color me surprised too. :) Good for you, SH.

When a symbol of something is destroyed, the symbolee (!) itself cannot be harmed. But I can see why government would like to make it illegal. Perception of harm comes from those who are in fear. With good reason. If a German citizen during the WWII era had publicly burnt the swastika, I'm sure there would have been repercussions from those in power and from loyal adherents of the regime. Their fear would be that any witnesses to the flag burning would understand the intended message, and the virus of discontent might spread.


Interesting that the sanctioned way of honorably disposing of Old Glory is by fire. All in context.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:57 PM

gnomad, it is not a law. It is a code of conduct concerning the flag.

It should be folded a certain way, raised and lowered each day in a certain manner. It should never touch the ground and should be destroyed by fire when becoming too worn.

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:00 PM

If they pass the damnably dumb law, then they should also crack down on the auto- dealers & other commercial organizations who leave the flag out day & night in all types of weather. This is as much as "desecration" as the burning.

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM

More than ypou might want to know.

http://www.imagesoft.net/flags/usaflag.html

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: gnomad
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM

Ah, thanks for that, G-S, we learn a little bit each day. Glad you are still with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM

SH, I used to feel as you do now - but I worked with a man who described the hate, horror and fear in a burning cross. Then I witnessed the hate involved in burning someone in efigy. Flaunting the swastika in Skokie is wrong. I'm personally repulsed by flag burning, wearing it on clothing, letting it touch the ground, etc. But I would still not vote to prohibit any of this. I just wish there was more respect for other people's symbols. (Sounds like I agree with you - but on a continuum, I'm a little farther toward protection, just not willing to vote on it.)

(I see an analogy to the "trainwreck thread" at Mudcat. Stupid/hateful/vengeful words on the Internet would be meaningless if they were ignored by all...but they aren't...and never will be.)

Just yesterday the flag on my house became untied in one place, and I was sick until I fixed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:13 PM

Brucie's link is good.

The flag can fly at night if there is a light on it. (don't know about those car dealerships with the huge ones.) Burning in a ceremony is used to dispose of old flags so they don't end up in a garbage dump.

I made a mistake one time about displaying the flag in a ceremony. If it is on the level of the audience, it is on the audience's right. If it is on the level of the dais, it is on the speaker's right.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:20 PM

I generally respect flags because they represent the 'combined aspirations' of a people or nation. Some I have no respect for at all. BUT, I wouldn't impune the dignity of a whole people by spitting on it or burning it. Humans are better than that; at least, we should try to be.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:30 PM

It really pisses me off to see these idiots with little flags stuck to their cars being flapped to shreds and often ending up on the road or in a ditch. I see them everywhere, even at National Guard posts flying all night and in the most foul weather. I served under that banner, but the first amendment is more sacred to me than a piece of cloth. Stupidity is not and never should be a felony. Leave the constitution alone, and stop pandering to the ignorant masses. These twits are looking for votes, and the way Bush is acting, they are going to need them.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:10 PM

Yes, Mr. kendall, an they are probably going to get them. Alas.

GS

(PS...Thank you, gnomad. You are quite high on my list!)

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:25 PM

Just proves that these politicians are slimy opportunists that don't take their oath to uphold the Constitution seriously. So what else is new?

This is like the bazzillionth time they've introduced this legislation. Problem is, the asshole Republican and Democrat American voters have now put enough greedy crooks into power that idiotic measures like this can sail through Congress and be signed into law.

This will teach those gays and welfare sluts who keep winning the culture wars, won't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:32 PM

I have never been present when a flag was burned as an act of protest,
and I would rather not be; like Uncle Dave, I consider it much more than a "silly little symbol". But the only reason a sane, intelligent person would burn a flag publicly is to express a strongly held feeling by knowingly disturbing the onlookers deeply; he would know that he is risking bringing major hostility on himself to m
no harm is done to anyone. This is very close to the heart of freedom
of expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:34 PM

I think that flag burning should be the right of anyone who wants to do it, as long as they do it in designated places and are willing to take the consequences. I suggest in front of Armed Forces Recruiting Stations, National Guard and Reserve Armories, Police Stations, American Legion posts, Marine Corps League buildings, Fire Departments, and similar places. Those who burn flags out of doors should be required to obtain an outdoor burning permit, too, and if they don't comply they should be ticketed just as the guy burning his pile of leaves without a permit would be ticketed.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:35 PM

Well said, frogprince.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:41 PM

Now that was different; my post submitted itself while I was still
composing it, with me nowhere near the submit button.

That last should be, He would know that he is risking bringing major hostility on himself to make his point. This is very close to the heart of freedom of expression.

I truly hope that the necessary majority won't let themselves be blackmailed into passing this travesty; but I would be afraid to bet against it.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:41 PM

I sure do like your ideas, Rapaire!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:05 PM

(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.

Boy, that part of the Federal Flag Code must not get read very often, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:08 PM

Gets used for advert purposes by the military.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:17 PM

You get the government you pay for with your votes and your political campaign contributions.

Nothing more needs be said, IMO. These are the sorts of laws the majority of American voters, both Democrats and Republicans, either want or are willing to put up with, based upon their voting choices and their political contributions.

Follow the money, and it leads down this hell hole. This is where "centrist compromise" by appeasement Democrats gets you with a reactionary, right wing, evangelical militarist take over of the US government.

Don't like it? Maybe you should have thought of that 30 years ago, when you all caved to the Reagan right.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:18 PM

Not trolling at all...

I just don't see what the big deal is over a scrap of fabric

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:06 AM

None of this is about the flag or free speech. It's about political opportunism, jingoism, and fake patriotism being used by reactionaries to build up their political base for the coming election cycle.

Same dynamic is at work, being orchestrated by both Democrats and Republicans, regarding the manufactured controversy of using certain words to describe the US interment camp in Cuba, and the torture of political prisoners by US armed forces.

Both Democrats and Republicans will jump on the jingoist bandwagon to condemn anyone who strays from the official pro-war and pro-torture government propaganda line espoused by the US military and Bush administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:24 AM

Please note the date, as it may be a unique historical occasion. I agree fully with what SH and DougR have said, and I am delighted to see they draw the line and trying to enforce symbolism by constraining freedom. While it is not a freedom I have ever cared to exercise, I'm damned if someone should be allowed to withdraw it on the basis of superstition.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Kaleea
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 03:03 AM

As someone who has spent many hours of my life sewing, I don't consider burning our flag a wonderful idea & would not do that myself. How about burning the leaders in effigy as was done in "olden days." (a 'dummy' made like a scarecrow with the name of the person the crowd is mad at is hung with a noose from a tree & taken down & burned) Instead of passing all these laws, why don't these people take responsibility for teaching our nation's children-- their children, grandchildren, neices, nephews, etc.--proper respect for the fabric symbol of our nation? Why, indeed? I often wonder, with both houses representing our citizens having had a republican majority for the past 10 years, who is to blame for our nation's troubles? If our nation is in such bad shape, who could be at fault? Our leaders?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,Burns
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 07:09 AM

--why don't these people take responsibility for teaching our nation's children-- their children, grandchildren, neices, nephews, etc.--proper respect for the fabric symbol of our nation?

The nation that it symbolises would have to be worthy of respect first.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 08:33 AM

I agree with the initial post by SH, and it sounds like most others on this forum do, too.

As a couple of other people have mentioned, this proposed legislation really isn't about burning the flag. It's about embarrassing the legislators who vote against it, making them seem unpatriotic, and putting them on the defensive in the next election. The whole point is to be able to say "my opponent voted against a law to protect the flag of our country, that so many have fought and died for, etc." Those kinds of statements get a lot of traction in elections these days, unfortunately. They're really just a diversionary tactic that allows politicians to avoid the real issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 08:42 AM

Desecration laws will happily clear the way for the coming blasphemy laws which in turn will clear the way for wide sweeping sedition laws until finally all those distracting and annoying dissenting voices will be silenced.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 09:07 AM

Creating a law to protect sacred symbolism is in direct opposition to the intentions of the founders of the Constitution.

Once you can imprison people for disrespecting one symbolic "sacred" thing, you can pass more laws for other "sacred" things. By democratic magority vote of course.

This is of course unconstitutional under 2 articles in the US Constitution.

Maybe if the few remaing liberal activist Supream Court judges are replaced then finally the Constituion can finally be interpreted by the court of the religious magority as intended by the Republican party for the last 100-150 years.