Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:56 AM

No worries!

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:20 AM

Hi,

Still looking at Radoo, and There is a Tavern. Radoo has the Must I go bound (Shall I Go Bound) stanza which is found in two of the US versions I've put on so far. Here it's the last stanza:

Must I go bound, must I go free,
Must I love a young man that won't love me?
O no, O no, that never shall be,
Till apples grow on an orange tree.
[Jane Hicks Gentry Hot Springs, NC on August 23, 1916 Sharp B]

This indicated along with versions collected by Randolph that the "Must I Go bound" text was fairly common in the US and at least in two versions of Butcher Boy. Randloph mention a text from Roxburghe, which I presume is:

Shall I be bound, that may be free?
Shall reason rule my raging mind?
Shall I love him that loves not me?
No, though I wink, I am not blind.
[Maid's Revenge upon Cupid and Venus]

Radoo was published by 1884 [Bodleian date 1877-1884] and I still think it predates Tavern in the Town and was used in its creation along with Butcher Boy.

I have a copy of William H. Hills There is a Tavern in the Town dated 1883 from "Students' Songs." Even though he had edition in 1880 and 1881 I think the 1883 date is about right. From the Bodleian print comes this information:

Written by W.H. Hills. Arranged by B. Forms
Music Francis Day & Hunter London, W.

Which is not in the Students' Songs editions. Hill's copyright was granted in 1884:

Original entry, Apr. 8, 1884, no. 7553. THERE IS A TAVERN IN THE TOWN; by William H. Hills. [47 (C) by William H. Hills, Boston, Mass., as the author, in renewal for 28 years. Renewal no. 1786, Mar. 30, 1911. Original entry in Students songs.

Hill's text is missing a stanzas in Adam's 1891 version [at Levy] and there is one text change of one half a line. It's rumored that F.J. Adam's version was first published in 1881 but I have no proof of that yet. Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:19 PM

'Shall I be bound' must be treated as a commonplace. It's wording varies quite a lot so it might be possible to trace its closest source using that information, but don't just look at our 2 songs. It could have come from elsewhere.

Your link to The Right Honourable didn't work. It just took me to Google books where there were no full texts available. I spotted the likely chapter but couldn't get access.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:00 PM

Hi,

Here's the link again to The Right Honourable, 1888: https://books.google.com/books?id=vFGcpvuOGdUC&pg=PA171&dq=%22The+Right+Honourable%22+radoo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjrrng3urRAhWG

It seems to me that Radoo would precede "There is a Tavern" which borrowed from it to make the chorus. Right now I have them both appearing around 1883- since the Bodleian has 1877-1884 and both appear in different songbooks for R. Marsh.

Steve, can you date either of the Fortey Songsters? I was thinking c. 1890 but that doesn't help prove an earlier date.

One correction: in my last post the extra stanza appears in William Hill's later "Students' Songbook" editions but not his 1883 one. Hill's 1883 text and Adam's 1891 text are nearly identical. I can find little info on F.J, Adams now- I did find some several years ago but I can't find it.

I'm finishing up Sharp's US versions. Here's a version in Sharp's EFSSA II, 1932. Clearly related but not really a version. Hmmmm!

No. 190
I Love my Love- Sung by Mrs. ELLEN WEBB at Cane River, Burnsville, N. C, Sept. 21, 1918
Hexatonic (no 4th).

1. All my friends fell out with me
Because kept my love's company;
But let them say or do what they will,
I love my love with a free good will.

2 Over the mountain I must go,
Because my fortune is so low;
With an aching heart and a troubled mind
For leaving my true love behind.

3 The Powers above look down and see
The parting of true love and me.
'Tis as hard to part the moon and sky
As it is to part true love and I.

4 When I have gold she has her part,
And when I have none she has my heart;
And she gained it too with a free good will,
And upon my honour I love her still.

5 The winter's past and summer's come,
The trees are budding one by one;
And when my true love chooses to stay,
I'll stay with her till the break of day.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:13 PM

Hi,

Steve, the music (Right Honourable, 1888) is on p. 171, just move up a little past the music to where it's called "A wild little American negro song. . ." Even though it's a fictional account the music is provided and there would be no logical reason for them to "make up" facts about it. They call it a Civil War song and imply that it's an older plantation song.

Not enough proof but so far I've not found any info about it or even the word "Radoo" as being a known slang for "adieu."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:30 PM

Hi,

This is another clearly related version that has to many changes to be a version-- with stanzas similar to perhaps to Careless Love:

Sharp's EFSSA, II 1932 edition p. 268:

No. 189
Every Night when the Sun goes in- Sung by Mrs. EFFIE MITCHELL
at Burnsville, N. C , Oct. 6, 1918

1. Ev'ry night when the sun goes in,
Ev'ry night when the sun goes in,
Ev'ry night when the sun goes in,
I hang down my head and mournful cry.
True love, don't weep, true love, don't mourn,
True love, don't weep, true love, don't mourn,
True love, don't weep nor mourn for me,
I'm going a way to Marble town.

2 I wish to the Lord that train would come (3 times)
To take me back where I come from.
True love, don't weep, etc.

3 It's once my apron hung down low (3 times)
He'd follow me through both sleet and snow.
True love, don't weep, etc.

4 It's now my apron's to my chin (3 times)
He'll face my door and won't come in.
True love, don't weep, etc.

5 I wish to the Lord my babe was born,
A-sitting upon his pappy's knee,
And me, poor girl, was dead and gone,
And the green grass growing over me.
True love, don't weep, etc.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:09 PM

Fortey was printing over a very long period. I haven't got the dates handy. However a lot of the songs in the same songster are datable. I'll have a look. Still can't get at the book at all. What do I click on when I get to the initial page?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:47 PM

Hi,

This is the longest Sharp MS version not published:

The Blue Eyed Boy- sung by Hezekiah Crane of Flag Pond, Tennessee on September 3, 1916. Collected by Cecil Sharp.

In North Carolina I once did dwell
With a blue-eyed boy I loved so well,
He courted me my life away
And then with me he would not stay.

He took me to some farmer's house,
And sit me down upon a chair,
And took a strange girl on his knee,
He told her that he wouldn't tell me.

I know, I know, the reason why,
She has more gold and silver than I;
Her gold will rust, her silver will fly,
And then she will be as poor as I.

I'll go upstairs and I'll sit down,
Take a pen and ink and write it down,
I'll lay my head upon the bed,
And think of what dear mother said:

Go dig a grave both wide and deep,
Place a marble stone at my head and feet,
and on my heart place a snow-white dove,
To show the world I died for love.

    And this is one of the shortest ones:

I Wish, I Wish- sung by Jacob Sowder of Callaway, Virginia on 17 August, 1918 from Sharp's MSS.

I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
I wish I were a child again;
But that I ain't I never will be
Till apples grow on a willow tree.

Your gold shall rust and silver shall fly
But constant love shall never die.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:56 PM

Steve:

When you click on "The Right Honourable" link -- it takes you to between page 171 and 172. you should see top of page 172. Scroll down on the right bar control and you'll see the music.

or,

Just enter: "The Right Honourable" Radoo
at Google books and it'll take you there.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:28 PM

Hi,

Just included "Every Night When the Sun Goes In" on my site as one of many related ballads and songs: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7d-every-night-when-the-sun-goes-in.aspx

It has a photo by Sharp of Effie Mitchell, two of her children and her mother, Hannah.

There's a better photo at R.V. Williams site but I couldn't figure out how to copy it.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:13 PM

Hi,

Somehow I'm back in Ireland!!!

Here's a poem which is a rewrite of our "Died for Love" songs. I'm only given the first part that relates to out ballads;

From: Day and Night Songs; by William Allingham 1855


XII. THE GIRL'S LAMENTATION.
   (To an old Irish Tune.)

With grief and mourning I sit to spin;
My Love pass'd by, and he didn't come in;
He passes by me, both day and night,
And carries off my poor heart's delight.

There is a tavern in yonder town,
My Love goes there and he spends a crown,
He takes a strange girl upon his knee,
And never more gives a thought to me.

Says he, "We'll wed without loss of time,
And sure our love's but a little crime;"—
My apron-string now its wearing short,
And my Love he seeks other girls to court.

O with him I'd go if I had my will,
I'd follow him barefoot o'er rock and hill;
I'd never once speak of all my grief
If he'd give me a smile for my heart's relief.

In our wee garden the rose unfolds,
With bachelor's-buttons, and marigolds;
I'll tie no posies for dance or fair,
A willow twig is for me to wear.

For a maid again I can never be,
Till the red rose blooms on the willow tree.
Of such a trouble I heard them tell,
And now I know what it means full well.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 05:01 PM

Looking at the 16th/17th century versions of 18829 I think an attempt should be made to separate 'Waly Waly' from 'The Unfortunate Swain'. In their earliest forms they only have 1 stanza in common and that is the 'leaned my back against an oak' stanza. The probability is that the English lament borrowed this from the Scottish but it could be the other way round.

The seminal 'Unfortunate Swain' seems to have been pieced together sometime in the middle of the 18th century. At least 4 of its stanzas come from 17th century ballads. The first 4 stanzas and the 9th are all aabb pattern and 5 to 8 are all abab. Whilst the narrator in printed versions can be male or female in roughly equal numbers the earliest seem to be the male narrator ones. In later versions as one would expect the order of stanzas starts to break down, and goes completely to pot in oral versions.

'The earliest 'Waly Waly' I have is 1727 Ramsay in 5 double quatrains. Orpheus Caledonius of 1733 with tune is in quatrains and has one quatrain different to Ramsay. 'Oh wherefore should I busk my head' is replaced by 'When cockle shells turn silver bells' stanza. Herd/Percy etc. follow Ramsay.

Before looking closer at oral versions where there are lots of hybrids can you add to these 16th/17th century versions?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:05 PM

Richie & Steve, do you have (or want?) the version of "I Wish, I Wish," recorded by the Dubliners in the '60s? I haven't checked, but it's interestingly different from what I see here.

Rewritten lyrics, perhaps, but still essentially "folky."

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:16 PM

Hi Lighter,

I do want Dubliner's version. It's helpful if their source is given- although it may be difficult to ascertain.

Steve, I'm not sure of the reason you are bringing "Waly, Waly" into this thread now- I only sense it has something to do with "Must I go Bound,"-- just a guess. I have considered including it as an appendix.

I assume you've seen the online article by Jürgen Kloss, October 2010/July 2012 "The Water Is Wide" The History Of A "Folksong". Here's a link: http://www.justanothertune.com/html/wateriswide.html What do you think of it?

The other article and it's on my web-site is: Some Notes on "O Waly Waly" by J. W. Allen; Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 7, No. 3 (Dec., 1954), pp. 161-171. Here's a link: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/some-notes-on-o-waly-waly-by-j-w-allen-1954.aspx What do you think of that article?

* * * *

Steve,
Do you think either Fortey songster with Radoo is before 1880?
What did you think of the Radoo info in The Right Honourable, 1888?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:47 AM

Hi,

In Ramsay's "The tea-table miscellany" there's a ballad called Susan's Complaint and Remedy, which begin with the lass bemoaning the loss of her false lover- similar to "Constant lady"- the sentiment is given from stanzas 2:

II.
Why does my love Willy prove false and unkind?
Ah I why does he change like the wavering wind,
From one that is 1oyal in ev'ry degree?
Ah! why does he change to another from me?

However, the first part of the 4th stanza seems to be close to our ballad:

IV.
But now he has left me, and Fanny the fair
Employs all his wishes, his thoughts and his care:
He kisses her lip as she sits on his knee,
And says all the sweet things he once said to me:

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 01:38 PM

Hi,

If you're a cowboy looking for a traditional cowboy song- well here's one from Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax, 3nd edition, 1916 p. 397-398:

RAMBLING BOY

I am a wild and roving lad,
A wild and rambling lad I'll be;
For I do love a little girl
And she does love me.

"O Willie, O Willie, I love you so,
I love you more than I do know;
And if my tongue could tell you so
I'd give the world to let you know."

When Julia's old father came this to know,—
That Julia and Willie were loving so,—
He ripped and swore among them all,
And swore he'd use a cannon ball.

She wrote Willie a letter with her right hand
And sent it to him in the western land.
"Oh, read these lines, sweet William dear.
For this is the last of me you will hear."

He read those lines while he wept and cried,
"Ten thousand times I wish I had died"
He read those lines while he wept and said,
"Ten thousand times I wish I were dead."

When her old father came home that night
He called for Julia, his heart's delight,
He ran up stairs and her door he broke
And found her hanging by her own bed rope.

And with his knife he cut her down,
And in her bosom this note he found
Saying, " Dig my grave both deep and wide
And bury sweet Willie by my side."

They dug her grave both deep and wide
And buried sweet Willie by her side;
And on her grave set a turtle dove
To show the world they died for love.

This is a version of the "Cruel Father" broadside (my B version) which has the 'rambling boy' opening. The second stanza is one that borrowed from the opening Nelly's Constancy, 1686. After the cruel father discovers his daughter is in love with the "wild and roving lad" the father presses him to sea, where the lad is killed by a cannonball. His ghost haunts the father that night and later his daughter hangs herself leaving a note that blames her father. It ends with the "Died for Love" stanza.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 01:47 PM

The Dubliners' "I Wish" was apparently recorded in 1963 and released on Jan. 1, 1964.

It's worth $1.29 to hear it sung all the way through by the inimitable Ronnie Drew:

https://www.amazon.com/Wish-Till-Apples-Grow-Tree/dp/B01KBK3P0A/ref=sr_1_1?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1485974399&sr=1-1&keywords=dubli

Lomax's "Rambling Boy" does not appear in the first (1910) ed. of Cowboy Songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:46 PM

I put 18829 in because it was once part of Roud 60 and there are hybrids with 60.

Fortey can easily be dated 1887 looking at other songs nearby in the songster. Both 'So it was!' and 'Oh, the Jubilee!' came out in 1887.

I have all of the EFDSS journals from 1899 to date. I'll have a look at the Kloss article.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:50 PM

Susan's Complaint has similar wording/sentiments in the last couplet but it could easily be co-incidence.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:51 PM

You have to balance similar wording against the use of stock phrases by the broadside writers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:58 PM

Hi,

Lighter-- $1.29, is it on youtube? I've read about that version. Lomax added songs in 1916 and Rambling Boy was one- it appears in the subsequent editions. Unfortunately there's no info given.

Steve-- I got a date of 1890 for one of the Songsters so it look like they are after circa 1883 when Radoo was published in a songbook in London by R. Marsh (Bodleian).

Here's an interesting text that I've seen so it must have been published before. Fauset lists it as a variant of Butcher Boy.

From: Folklore from Nova Scotia collected by Arthur Huff Fauset (1899-1983), New York: American Folk-Lore Society: G.E. Stechert and Co., Agents, 1931.


[Must I Go Bound] (Variant 1) - sung by Peter Dyer. Colored. Born in Barcelona, Spain. Aged about 55. Came to the United States at an early age, and settled in Nova Scotia about 20 years ago. Retired grocer, Yarmouth.

Must I go bonds[bound], must I go free,
Must I love a man that don't love me?
And must I act the childish part,
To marry a man that'll break my heart?

Last night my lover promised me
That he would take me across the deep blue sea.
But now he's gone an' left me alone,
I'm an orphan girl without any home.

Must I go bonds[1], must I go free,
Must I love a man that don't love me?
And must I act the childish part,
To marry a man that'll break my heart?

There was a place in London town
Where my true love sat himself down.
He takes another girl on his knee,
And tells to her what he won't tell me.

Must I go bonds[1], must I go free,
Must I love a man that don't love me?
And must I act the childish part,
To marry a man that'll break my heart?

1. bound

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:07 PM

Steve- Susan's Complaint isn't related in any way- it's just curious that a similar stanza chanced to have been written.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:36 PM

Hi,

It's on youtube- two places.

The Dubliners' "I Wish (Till the Apples Grow)" also found as online as "Love is Pleasin'." 1964 Release.

I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
I wish, I wish, I was a youth again
But a youth again I can never be
Till the apples grow on an ivy tree.

I left me father, I left me mother
I left all me sisters and brothers too
I left all me friends and me own religion
I left them all for to follow you.

But the sweetest apple is the soonest rotten
And the hottest love is the soonest cold
And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love
And now I am bound for Americ-ka.

Oh love is pleasin' and love is teasin'
And love is a pleasure when first it's new
But as it grows older sure the love grows colder
And it fades away like the morning dew.

And love and porter makes a young man older
And love and whiskey makes him old and grey
And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love
And now I am bound for Americ-ka.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:52 PM

The Kloss article is brilliant. It shows pretty much similar findings to what I have but goes into much greater detail and some more accurate dates from earlier editions. The main thrust re 'Water is Wide' is interesting and to date it must be the definitive article on this branch of the family.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:15 PM

Hi Steve- I agree great article, sources-- which I read three weeks ago and need to return when the fog clears.

Here's something for you that I had and recently saw again- it's a reduction of Nelly's Constancy from British Library transcribed by our old friend Baring-Gould's MS when he was looking through broadsides:

The Broken Hearted Lover's Garland circa 1740. Song IV "Nelly's Constancy to a new Tune. O.G. I. p. 103.

I lov'd you dearly I loved you well
I loved you dear(ly) no tongue can tell.
You love another, you love not me
You care not for my company.

You love another, I'll tell you why
Because she hath more means than I.
But means will waste love & means will fly
In time thou mayest have no more than I.

If I had gold (Love) thou shouldst have part
But as I've none (Love), thou hast my heart.
Thou hast my heart (Love) & free good will,
And in good troth I love thee still.

How often has your tongue this told,
You loved not for silver nor gold,
And thus to me you did impart,
And your desire was my heart.

Your tongue did so enchant my mind
Still I am & forever must be kind:
Though you prove false, yet I am true,
And so I'll bid false men adieu.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:18 PM

That's it, Richie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM

Hi,

There are several versions that are variants Radoo/Adieu (used in Tavern) which also include Must I Go Bound-- and are related to Blue-Eyed Boy songs and also to Child 78 "Lass of Roch Royal" (just the "Who will shoe my pretty little feet" parts).

Here's my point: Radoo (Adieu) is known as a separate song and it is independent of Tavern- and I believe older. Here's what Davis says in TBva:

"In other variants of the same combination song (see below)- this "Adieu" stanza appears after the "shoe my foot" stanzas or - and more generally - as a chorus."

Here's the song from Traditional Ballads of Virginia (under appendices):

[Adieu, Adieu] collected by Mr. John stone. Sung by Mrs. Nathaniel Stone, of Culpeper, Va. Culpeper County Nov. 15, 1916. With music.

1. "Adieu, kind friend, adieu, adieu,
I cannot linger long with you;
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land.
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land."

2 "Must I go bond and you go free?
Must I go bond and you go free?
O, must I act the fooiie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?
O, must I act the foolie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?"

"O, who will shoe those pretty little feet?
O, who will glove those lily-white hands?
O, who will kiss those ruby lips,
While I am in a foreign land?
O, who will kiss those ruby lips
While I am in a foreign land?"

"My father will shoe my pretty little feet;
My brother will glove my lily-white hands;
My mother'll kiss my ruby lips,
When you are in a foreign land.
My mother'll kiss my ruby lips
When you are in a foreign land"

Davis titled it "Lass of Roch Royal" but the stanzas are obvious floaters. Davis said Adieu is known in similar songs and is used as a chorus.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:59 PM

Hi,

Correction: There are several versions that are variants of Radoo/Adieu (used in Tavern) which also include Must I Go Bound-- and are related to the Blue-Eyed Boy songs and also to Child 76 "Lass of Roch Royal" (just the "Who will shoe my pretty little feet" parts).

(I wish, I wish, I wish I could type)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:20 PM

Hi Lighter,

Now we need a source- I found another Irish version with the apple/ivy from 1860s but I can't get the source because the book is on google.

Here's another hybrid from 1909 (Blue-Eyed Boy) I'll just give a few stanzas:

Go bring me baek that blue-eyed. boy,
Go bring my darling back to me,
But the loss of one is the gain of two,
And this is why I mourn for you.

Must I go bound while he goes free?
Must I love a fellow when he don't love me?
Or must I act the childish part
And love a fellow when he broke my heart?

Adieu, adieu, kind friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang myself on a green willow tree
Unless he consents to marry me.

Remember me and bear in mind,
A good true friend is hard to find;
And when you find one good and true
Don't change the old one for the new.

This also has a stanza of Child 76. Notice the text for "Adieu"

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:32 PM

Ok Lighter- (or anyone that can help)

Here's the Irish version, it's in The Irish Book Lover - Volumes 9-13 - Page 130 by John Smyth Crone, ‎Seamus O'Cassidy, ‎Colm O Lochlainn - 1917. link: https://books.google.com/books?id=nI2jWRRmTfUC

I think the variant is from one of the authors but it's unclear. Here's the text:

[[[In "Notes and Queries," once again published weekly, for 10th April, Mr. Joesph J. MacSweeney pointed out the close resemblance between a poem by William Allingham "The Girl's Lamentation," an English folk song in Kidson and Neal's Collection, and a Gaelic song "Tiocfaidh an Samhradh," in Mrs. Costello's recent collection published by the Irish Folk Song Society. Being interested both in Allingham and folk songs, I sent the following note:

The theme of both poem and folk song-- the betrayal and desertion of a young girl is, of course, as old as the hills and wide as the world.
When I was a boy in rural Ulster in the sixties of last century I often heard a folk-song which I always considered the foundation upon which Allingham built. The words and the pathetic old Irish air to which it was sung cling to my memory yet. Here are a few stanzas which show a close resemblance to both poem and song:

There is a strange house in this town
Where my true love goes in and sits down,
He takes a strange girl on his knee,
And he tells her the tale that he once told me.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain,
I wish that I was a maid again,
A maid I was, but ne'er shall be
Till the apples grow on yon ivy tree.

I wish, I wish, now I'm all forlorn
I wish my baby it was born,
And sitting on its dada's knee,
And the long, green grass growing over me.

An esteemed Cork correspondent informs me that a memorial cross has recently been erected in St Joseph's Cemetery, Cork, over the grave of Timothy Murphy, who died on 13th April, 1919. . .]]]

I already post part of the Allingham-- I'm not sure of the relation ship with the-- Gaelic song "Tiocfaidh an Samhradh," in Mrs. Costello's recent collection-- which is "summertime is coming" and the translation of one version is not our ballad. Anyone know more about this Gaelic song?

I need to know who posted this song which he learned when he was small in the 1860s,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:31 PM

Hi,

Finally made it to the 1930s in the US/Canada versions. My grandfather collected and published along with Melinger Henry (Beech Mountain Ballads) a version of "Blue-Eyed Boy" and a version of "Butcher Boy." The Butcher Boy was from Banner Elk where he met Henry who had already published his first book in London. Henry collect a rare version of Cruel Father, my B version from Rena Hicks, Nathan's wife. Nathan was a dulcimer player and maker and I've played and recorded a few tunes on his dulcimer. Rena's song was "I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy" and it has the "cannon ball" reference like Lomax's "Rambling Boy."

I remember my grandparents- both professional musicians- my grandmother was a concert pianist and my grandfather was a baritone singer who directed choirs and choral groups (the one at Banner Elk in 1933 for example where he met Henry)-- they would talk about the times Percy Granger came by the house and they would play piano duets and sing and Percy would tell stories and do odd things. Percy also collected a few versions before he moved to Americ-ka (as Ronnie Drew of Dubliners sang it).

Nathan's son-in-law Frank Proffitt also sang a version "Morning Fair" as did one several of the older relatives Sam Harmon and Jane Hicks Gentry. Jane's version has the "Must I Go Bound" stanza. The version Henry got from Uncle Sam Harmon, Old Counce's grandson is as follows. It was taken from his granddaughter:

A. Butcher's Boy. Obtained from Miss Rachel Tucker, Varnell, Georgia, who had it from her grandparents, Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Harmon, of Cade's Cove, Blount County, Tennessee, October, 1930.

1. In yonder city where I once dwell,
A Butcher's boy I loved so well;
He courted me my life away
And then with me he would not stay.

2. There was a house in this same town;
My love would go and he would sit down;
He would take another girl upon his knee,
And tell her what he wouldn't tell me.

3. "Oh, mama, mama, can't you see,
How this boy has treated me?
His gold may scatter; his silver may fly;
I hope some day he be poor as I.

4. "Give me a cheer, and I will sit down,
A pen and ink to write it down.
I will write it down as you plainly see:
'I once loved a boy that didn't love me.'"

5. After a while her father came home
Inquiring where his daughter had gone
Upstairs he went; the door he broke;
He found her hanging by a rope.

6. He tuk his knife; he cut her down
And on her breast these he found:
"I will write it down so you can plainly see,
'I once loved a boy that didn't love me.'

7. "Go, dig a grave both wide and deep
And a marble stone at my head and feet;
And on my breast put a little dove
To tell the world that I died for love."   

I'll post Nathan Hick's version of "Blue-Eyed Girl" later,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:41 PM

Crone's dates appear to be 1858-1945, and his name certainly sounds the most Ultonian. He may be the best bet of the three.

O Lochlainn lived into the 1960s and didn't grow up in Ulster, so it wasn't him.

I haven't found anything on O'Cassidy.

Maybe someone else will have better luck.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:16 PM

Thanks Lighter,

I used the "words in quotes" method in Google Books snippet view if you quote the beginning in Google books "In "Notes and Queries," once again published weekly" it may give you the sentence before that. I go the whole thing by doing that. Or going into snippet view and entering parts of what I had.
* * * *

In Blue-Eyed Boy Belden D is:

D. No title. Secured by Miss Hamilton in 1909 from Nita Stebbins of the West Plains High School, who described it as 'a country dance' which she learned, from an old woman who used to live in the country.'

As I walked out one morning in May
Gathering flowers all so gay,
I gathered white and I gathered blue
And little did I think what love could do.

Must I go bound, must you go free,
Must I love a pretty girl that won't love me?
Oh, no! no! it never can be,
For love like thee never conquered me.

Now compare that to "The Unfortunate Swain" From: The Merry Songster. 1770:

Down in a Meadow both fair and gay,
Plucking a Flowers the other day,
Plucking a Flower both red and blue,
I little thought what Love could do.

Where Love's planted there it grow,
It buds and blows much like any Rose;
And has so sweet and pleasant smell,
No Flower on Earth can it excell.

Must I be bound and she be free?
Must I love one that loves not me?
Why should I act such a childish Part
To love a Girl that will break my Heart.

So Steve was saying that Unfortunate Swain/Picking Lilies only has one stanza in common with Waly Waly.

Clearly the Must I Go Bound stanza is related to Blue Eyed Boy/Adieu, Adieu/Butcher Boy.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:24 PM

Hi,

Here another puzzler. Where do this stanza come from? What broadside earlier song?

As I walked out one evening fair
To view the plains and take the air
I overheard a young man say
He loved a girl that was going away.

It's in four or five versions of Butcher Boy/Blue Eyed Boy in the US. I've got it back to the early 1800s in the US. It appears similarly in other songs but the second line changes.

Here's an example, Belden's Blue-Eyed Boy version C:

C. 'Adieu.' Communicated to Miss Hamilton in 1911 by Shirley Hunt of the Kirksville Teachers College. Note the 'eavesdropping' introductory stanza, a favorite opening for the pastourelle type of street ballad.


As I walked out one evening fair
To view the plains and take the air
I overheard a young man say
He loved a girl that was going away.

Chorus: Adieu, adieu, my friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang my harp upon the willow
And bid this lonesome world adieu.

Go bring me back that blue-eyed. boy,
Go bring my darling back to me,
Go bring me back the one I love
And happy I shall always be.

Must I be bound and you go free?
Must I love one that don't love me?
Or must I act a childish part
And stay with one that broke my heart?

Sometimes you think you have a friend
And one you always can depend;
But when you think that you have got,
'When tried will prove that you will not.

Notice this too has the "Adieu Adieu" Chorus as in several other songs including Radoo and There is a Tavern,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 11:17 PM

Hi,

My father could only recall one trip to Beech Mountain to visit Nathan Hicks and he was about 7 years old at the time. They drove the car as far in the mountains as they could then pulled off the road and walked, and walked and walked.

When they got there Grandfather Matteson would go up on the porch with the grown ups. They told my father to go play with the children but when my father looked around there were no children there. He went into the yard -- all the children about half dozen were all hiding from him!!! Eventually he found Ray Hicks the eldest who was around 10 and already over six-foot tall. Ray was perhaps the best known tell of Jack tales in the world- passed down from great-grandfather Council Harmon and his children. Ray ended up being six feet six inches tall and was skinny as a rail.

My grandparents would send them money sometimes and the Hicks family were dirt poor but would send them hand0made Christmas presents and decorations every year. My grandfather bought a dulcimer and got one of his friends from NY Frank Warner to go down and buy one. Frank recorded the Hicks around 1940 and even played one of his son-in-laws songs, Tom Dooley that got to be pretty popular when redone by The Kingston Trio. It must have been a sad day when Nathan died, for Rena and Ray and Frank Proffitt too.

THE BLUE-EYED BOY, sung by Nathan Hicks August, 1933.

Must I go bound while he goes free?
Must I love a boy that don't love me?
Must I then act the childish part,
And love a boy till he breaks my heart?

Refrain: Go, bring me baek my blue-eyed boy;
Go, bring my darling back to me;
Go, bring me back my blue-eyed boy
And happy ever I will be.

No, I'll not go bound while he goes free;
No, I'll not love a boy that don't love me;
No, I'll not act the childish part,
And love a boy till he breaks my heart.

ReJrain

Last night my true love told me that
He'd take me across the deep blue sea,
But now he's gone and left me alone-
A poor orphan girl without a home.

ReJrain

Right here in this little town
My true love gocs and he sits down,
He takes other girls upon his knee
And tells them things he won't tell me.

Refrain

My true love is like a little bird
That flies from tree to tree,
And while he's with some other girl,
He very seldom thinks of me.

Refrain

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 12:12 AM

Hi,

Rena, Nathan's Wife was a Hicks too, they were third cousins. And Uncle Sam Harmon's wife Pollyanna, she was a Hicks too. Uncle Sam, who move from Beech Mountain in the 1800s to TN, once said his grandfather Council was the one that came over from England but he didn't know. Old Counce's father Andrew was kilt when a tree fell over on him and Counce and his brother were sent to live with their grandfather Big Sammy Hicks. You might think that Big Sammy and his son Little Sammy might have come over from England- but no-- Big Sammy came over to the NC Mountains about the time of the skirmish with the Redcoat. Sammy's father David was a loyalist and he left James River long before his father Samuel left the James River and Tuckahoe Creek, Virginia. So you see Uncle Sam was way off about Old Counce his Grandfather coming from England.

Rena Hicks did keep a ballit box and she wrote down many of the Hicks family ballads. She was still around when my friend Thomas Burton ventured up to Beech Mountain in the early 70s. Henry collected a dozen songs from her in the early 1930s including "Rambling Rowdy Boy."

My father told me one of my grandfather's secrets. My grandfather always took a flask of whiskey with him in his back pocket on his "ballad bagging" trips. And after socializing a bit he'd invite some of the men-folk to partake. I don't know if it worked but I'm sure he enjoyed it. I never gto a chance to hear my grandfather sing-- there are only a few recordings of him made by the library of Congress in the 1930s. Here's a link with a photo of Nathan Hick's holding my grandfather's dulcimer that Nathan made: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-child-85-lady-alice.aspx You can hear me playing it if you click the link below the pic. Here's my grandfather's collected version of Butcher Boy:

THE BUTCHER BOY- sung by Mrs. Schell, Banner Elk, NC 1933

In yonder city where I did dwell
A butcher boy I loved so well;
He courted me my life away,
And then with me he would not stay.

There was a house in this same town--
My love would go and he would sit down,
He would take another girl upon his knee,
And tell her what he wouldn't tell me.

"Oh, mama, mama, can't you see,
How this boy has treated me?
His gold may scatter; his silver may fly;
I hope some day he be poor as I.

"Give me a cheer, and I will sit down-
A pen and ink to write it down.
I will write it down as you plainly see:
'I once loved a boy that didn't love me."'

After a while her father came home
Inquiring where his daughter had gone.
Upstairs he went; the door he broke;
He found her hanging by a rope.

He took his knife, he cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found:
"I will write it down so you can plainly see,
I once loved a boy that didn't love me.

"Go dig a grave both wide and deep
And a marble stone at my head and feet;
And on my breast put a little dove
To tell the world that I died for love."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 12:35 AM

Hi,

It was funny getting Nathan Hicks old dulcimer of the shelf at my Mom's house in Maryland. Dusting it off I discovered that the strings must had been original, they were black, rusted and very loose-- I tuned it up but it was still tuned down 1 1/2 steps -- I was afraid I'd break the old rusted strings. So my niece Kara got a book with a few of my grandfather's melodies of Nathan's songs and I grabbed my nephew Zach and we went over to Bob's and did 5 folk songs without practicing- one after the other- one take. I was using a clothespin to push the dulcimer strings and a pick- and we jammed!!

Here's the link to us actually playing George Colon (sic): http://bluegrassmessengers.com/Data/Sites/1/avatars/02%20George%20Collon.mp3

Nathan's dulcimer is still at my mom's house. Bob and Sue moved to the Potomac, Zack's playing violin in New Mexico somewhere. Kara moved to the country. Maybe we can still make music again someday!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 03:24 PM

Wow! That's history, Richie! Is there a family tree on your website?
More please!

Regarding the relationships between these songs, they nearly all consist of hybrids interspersed with commonplaces. I see little point in trying to trace the commonplaces. They'd already been jumping around since the 18th century. You'll drive yourself nuts if you try.

The British evolution is complicated enough but add in the further American diversification and you've got a zillion-piece jigsaw!

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:14 AM

Hi Steve,

Interesting about US Blue-Eyed Boy- it has Must I Go Bound and Adieu (Radoo). It was recorded by Carter Family in 1929 and also Woody Guthrie in 1940- two fairly famous acts. I only know of the Carter Family from Chet (Atkins) I have a few funny stories about Chet (later) but we sat backstage in 1992 and talked about AP Carter and since Chet played with Maybelle, one of the original Carters, he knew many of there songs and toured with them for several years. Chet knows alot of AP's songs. AP was one of the great song collectors in the 20s and 30s- he collected the songs and the Carter Family recorded them! I know of Woody from Lily Mae Ledford's granddaughter and researching Lily Mae- she sang a "blue-eyed girl" song but it's a different song- which I still know many years later.

I've already started a way to sort them out. Here's Blue Eyed Boy: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7f-my-blue-eyed-boy-.aspx I put the Scottish version collected by Grieg that you sent. know any more?

Here's what I'm doing:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Soldier Boy; Sweet William; Pinery Boy;
7B. Love Has Brought Me to Despair (Oxfordshire Tragedy; Love Has Brought Me to Despair;
7C. Sheffield Park-- Roud 860 ("The Unfortunate Maid;" "The Young Man of Sheffield Park;" "In Yorkshire Park" )
7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In (Every Night When The Sun Goes Down)
7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir (Rashie Moor; Rashy Moor)
7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy (Bring Back My Blue-Eyed Boy)
7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day (The Two Lovers; (broadside): A new song called William and Nancy or The Two Hearts)

For each ballad or song that is somewhat related I'm doing a separate study. Except for 7A and 7C it won't take long. I've already started all of them and finished one 7D.

I'll tell you a story about Percy Grainger, pianist, composer, collector. I'm not sure of the exact details but it comes from my grandfather and grandmother to my father. Percy liked quirky feats of daring. So he stood in the front yard of my grandparents house and said he could throw a ball over the house and catch it in the back yard. My grandparent's house was rather wide and there were trees next to it and bushes. 'Impossible' said my grandfather, so they made a bet (not sure what the wager was or if there was one). Percy opened up the front door walked down the hall and opened up the back door. He went back outside to the front- threw the ball over the house- ran through the house and caught the ball on the other side!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 01:06 AM

Hi,

Since we are talking about Blue-Eyed Boy and Nathan Hicks who built the dulcimer for my grandfather and was his informant. I'll tell you the story of Tom Dooley. The Kingston Trio's 1958 cover of "Tom Dooley" an NC folk song about the murder of Laura Foster, sold millions of copies, and eventually Frank Warner pointed out he got the song from Nathan Hick's son-in-law Frank Proffitt. Nathan actually had little to do with the song- Proffitt got it from his great-aunt Nancy Prather [all reports say Nancy is his "aunt", no]. Tom Dooley supposedly started the "folk craze" of the early 60s was credited to it.

In my grandmother's diary dated about 1937 (this is all from memory) they went over to Frank Warner's apartment in NY and my grandfather who has just published Beech Mountain Ballads and was president of the Southern Folklore Association received the invite from Frank and Anne Warner. My grandfather convinced Frank Warner to go down and get a dulcimer and meet Nathan Hicks. So Frank wrote Hicks and went down around 1939 and came back and did recordings in 1940, one of the recordings was Frank Proffit's Tom Dooley, which Warner had learned and was performing (guitar/vocal). Warner recorded Tom Dooley and Alan Lomax liked it so much he included it in his book Folk Song: USA. The Kingston Trio members were looking for new songs in Lomax's book and they selected Tom Dooley- and the rest is history. And...Nathan Hick's dulcimer, somehow, in some remote way had something to do with it!

So I was looking through my grandfather's MS and in his scribble on a MS sheet was Tom Dooley, but there was no attribution but it clearly was in the 1930s. This was quite a few years ago and I thought- wow this might be valuable-- did he get it from Proffitt before Frank Warner in 1940. There was only the chorus and some scribble which might have been a verse.

Fank Proffitt got it from his great Aunt, and I found out that Frank Warner had managed to get Frank Proffitt some of the royalties-- this was after the Kingston Trio had royalties for 5 million records!!!

I got my grandfather scribbled MS of Tom Dooley and wanted to find out if it was worth anything- it really didn't matter much Frank Proffitt was dead. So after digging into the song a little deeper. I found out-- the copyright probably wasn't valid anyway- Burnett and Rutherford recorded it in the late 20s!!! And no seemed to know it!!!

It's like the copyright Clayton Pappy McMichen of the Skillet Lickers had on the famous folksong "in the Pines". His daughter Juanita showed me his copyright and her royalty statement- she was make a thousand dollars a year of his copyright of "In the Pines" in the late 1920s. He didn't write it, he was prob the 5th to record it and he didn't even name it "In the Pines" -- yet she got his royalties for people using and recording "In the Pines."

Richie

Subject: Re: Tom Dooley's origins
From: Reinhard
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 02:16 AM

And noone seemed to know it!!!

Does it count when it's in a published book? ;-)

Paul Slade in bis 2015 book "Unprepared to Die: America's Greatest Murder Ballads and the True Crime Stories That Inspired Them" gives Grayson & Whitter's September 1929 recording as the first version of "Tom Dooley" on disc.   Gilliam Grayson was the nephew of James Grayson who helped arresting Tom Dula.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 09:53 AM

Hey,

This was back in the late 1980s when I found my grandfather MS. At that time, believe it or not, The Kingston Trio did not know of the 1929 recording, Alan Lomax did not know it, Frank Warner did not know it and at that time I thought perhaps mistakenly that it was new information.
The other thing is, as far as copyright law, Frank Proffitt has the right to his arrangement of the song including his text. If Kingston Trio knew about the Grayson and Whittier [his name is actually Whitter] recording- sorry I said Burnett and Rutherford- said it was from memory ;) then they could have claimed their version was based on a previously record folk song. Probably Kingston Trio redid or changed the melody- I know they out a pause in the chorus: Hand down your head---Tom Dooley and used Proffitt's text.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:08 AM

Hi,

As far as "Blue-eyed Boy" it looks like the UK versions are "My Love He Is a Sailor Boy/Lad" Besides the version collected by Grieg and other under the title "Bring me back the one I love." A similar song with a new stanza and title is 'willow tree'. Here's one version:

THE WILLOW TREE
Sung by May Bradley, Shropshire

As I passed by a willow tree, willow tree,
That willow leaf blew down on me.
I picked it up, it would not break.
I passed my love, he would not speak.

Oh, speak, young man, and don't be shy, be shy,
I'm not a girl can pass you by,
For friends we met and friends we'll part,
Just take my hand but not my heart.

I wish your bosom was of glass, of glass,
That I could view it through and through,
Just view those secrets of your heart,
If I love one I can't love two.

Then give me back to the one I love, I love,
Oh, give, oh give him back to me,
If I only had that one I love,
How happy, happy should I be.

My love he is a sailor boy, sailor boy,
He sails the ocean through and through,
And when he gets so far away,
He hardly thinks no more of me.

Now give me back to the one I love, I love,
Oh give, oh give him back to me,
If I only had that one I love,
How happy, happy should I be.

i consider this to be a variant of the same song. However, I'm just working on this now. Other UK versions? How old is "Willow Tree"? Other versions of "Bring me back the one I love"? Any info would be helpful.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 01:07 PM

Hi,

I put two old versions the Kidson broadside (Sailor Boy)and the music to the gypsy "Willow Tree' on my site here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7f-my-blue-eyed-boy-.aspx

Steve if you could date the Kidson broadside Sailor Boy it would be helpful. I'll email original.

Here's the version from Kendal, Westmorland:

Christmas Eve and After by Thomas William Thompson July 1909

But 'this loitering profiteth nothing,' so let me hasten to add
that Shandres was at home, and was mending his fiddle. When
this had been successfully accomplished he very kindly consented
to play for us, and, once begun, he played on and on, passed from
one tune to another, dance-music and Christmas-carols, songs and
hymns all coming alike to him. As he remembered some almost
forgotten melody a beaming smile lit up his still handsome face,
and never Avas he more pleased than when he played and sang
a beautiful and pathetic old folk-song:

[Willow Tree- sung by Shandres of Kendal, Westmorland]

As I passed by a willow tree,
A leaf fell down and followed me ;
I picked it up, it would not break ;
My love passed by, he would not speak.

'Speak, young man, and don't be shy,
You are the only one for me:
If you can't love one, you can't love two;
Never change the old one for the new.

'I wish my heart was made of glass,
That you might view it through and through,
Might view the secret of my heart —
How dearly, dearly I love you.'

Then give me back that one I love,
O! give, O! give him back to me;
If I only had that one I love,
How happy, happy should I be. [1]


1 There are a large number of variants of this song, which was a favourite with the old Gypsies. It is still remembered by the Gypsies of the Eastern Counties as well as by those of the North Country. The tune was recorded by the Misses M. and N. Dixon of Kendal. The third and fourth verses are sung to the same tune as verse two.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:05 PM

Richie,
Just as a matter of interest, is this historical info you are now posting available on your website? If it isn't it certainly should be.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:28 PM

Richie, you are racing ahead and because I'm trying to complete other projects I'm struggling to keep up with you. However, I'll do what I can when I can.

My Blue-eyed Boy versions in brief. Ask if you can't decipher any of them.

Belden 478 (4)
Huntington-Henry SotP 391 & 392
Greig Duncan 6 p19
Sandberg 324
Green Groves, hamer p46
Pound 212
I actually catalogued the Kidson sheet for them!!!!! Memory going!
Beech Mountain, Henry 50
Fowke, LaRena Clark p96.
Brewster 339
Owens 93
McNeil 18
The Gam, Huntington 224

You probably have all of these.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:26 PM

Hi Steve,

Need Green Groves, Hamer p46 and date on Kidson broadside. I've got a lot of work to do- so I won't be getting far ahead. still haven't looked much at Deep in Love and Must I go Bound.

I'm still working on US versions which are many,

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 04:40 AM

Kidson broadside c1890-1900

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 04:42 AM

Hamer is May Bradley The Willow Tree which you've just posted.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:49 PM

Hi,

Thanks Steve I need the Crawfurd-- I think its "Slighted Love" sung by Elizabeth Macqueen, originally from Ireland; Lyle-Crawfurd 43.

Becasue of Constant Lady's influence on (borrowed stanzas) the Died for Love and Love has Brought Me to Despair I wrote out the headnotes to Love has Left Me in Despair. If you look at the notes to Traditional Ballad Index you'll see it left them in despair too!

To read all the notes (several pages): http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7b-love-has-brought-me-to-despair.aspx Here is the last portion (rough draft- watch out for danging participles!!!):

The Traditional Ballad Index has listed a number of versions of the Died for Love family that have a stanza or two similar to, or based on, the broadside "Constant Lady." This is wrong. The criteria for inclusion for any ballad to be listed as a "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" ballad must be the Constant Lady's 4th stanza with the last line: "Yet Love has brought me to despair." If these words from the 4th stanza are missing them the ballad can only be based on the broadside "Constant Lady and the false-hearted Squire."

Belden in this Songs and Ballads" notes, 1940, addresses the issue, although it should be noted that "The Deceased Maiden Love" does not adequately compare to "Constant Lady" and that the ending of Pitts' "Sheffield Park" is a borrowing from Consant Lady." Here are Belden's notes[]:

One other feature, frequent in English ballads having a similar story but not found in any text[1] of The Butcher Boy, should be mentioned. In two seventeenth century broadsides, The Deceased Maiden Lover and The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire (Roxburghe Ballads I 260-2 and VIII 635-6), in Sheffield, Park (Pitts; also in oral tradition in Hampshire, see above), in Lancashire and Hertfordshire texts of A Brisk Young Sailor (JFSS V 183-9), in the Dorset There was Three Worms on Yonder Hill, in an Essex text of Died for Love (JFSS II 158-9)--all having a story something like that of The Butcher Boy--the girl does not hang herself but, like Ophelia, goes in search of flowers to cure the wounds of love makes a bed of them, and dies thereon (or, sometimes, dies and is covered with flowers and grass by her loving mistress). This element appears also in an otherwise unrelated song from North Carolina, Dearest Billie (MSNC 7).

Belden's first footnote present evidence of the "heart's-ease" flower found in Constant Lady stanza 13:

1. Rather, in any printed text. In two texts privately communicated to me by Barry in 1917, one from, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and one from Deerfieid, Massachusetts, the girl runs thru the meadows gathering flowers, for

There is a flower that I've heard say
'Tis called hearts-ease both night and day,
And if that flower I could find,
'Twould ease my heart and please my mind.

The former of these has also the 'apron high' motif.

While this evidence shows the influence of "Constant Lady" and its inclusion in a "Died for Love" song, Belden does not say they are all versions of "Love Had Brought Me to Despair" which is exactly my point: Love Has Brought Me to Despair is Constant Lady with the fours stanza present.

Cox, in his lengthy notes to "Love Had Brought Me to Despair" in Folk Songs from the South (1925), fails to identify "Constant Lady" as the ballad's source.

My conclusion is:

1) Constant Lady is a different ballad than Died for Love.
2) Some Died for Love ballads have borrowed stanzas from Constant Lady which has also provided one common ending: She laid her down, and nothing spoke:/ Alas! for love her heart was broke.
3) Versions similar to, or based on, the "Constant Lady" broadside that are missing stanza 4 (the Love Has Brought Me to Despair stanza) are versions of "Constant Lady[].
4) Versions with stanzas from "Constant Lady" that include stanza 4 (the Love Has Brought Me to Despair stanza) are versions of "Love Has Brought Me to Despair."

Richie