HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: GUEST,Hamish Birchall
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:54 AM

Hello again Shambles, McGrath, Richard

Lawyers cannot agree who counts as a performer. One of the bibles for licensing officers is 'Entertainment Licensing - Law and Practice' (Butterworths), by academic lawyer Dr Colin Manchester.

It was Dr Manchester who e-mailed me last year confirming that 'there is no decided authority' to support an interpretation of s 182 which counts members of the public performers if they join in with music making in a pub (either singing or playing an instrument). His personal view was that a 'performer' was someone specifically engaged by the proprietor for the purpose.

And it was Dr Manchester who pointed out that the provision of s 182 'cannot be public safety because it operates irrespective of the number of persons present' in premises.

I have had two informal opinions from QCs agreeing that this is a 'freedom of expression' issue, one from Simon Mehigan and the other from Robin Allen. Mr Mehigan is an editor of Butterworths 'Licensing Laws', and Mr Allen is the co-editor of the study guide to the Human Rights Act published jointly by the Bar Council and the Home Office last December.

The licensing White Paper has already dispensed in principle with a separate entertainment licensing framework, this being subsumed into the 'Premises Licence' which will apply to all on-licensed premises (pubs, clubs, bars etc).

The White Paper also emphasises that safety conditions should not exceed the safety provision available under existing health and safety legislation, and, by allowing local people to object to the 'operating conditions' (which will include whatever entertainment will be on offer in the premises) this will increase 'local democracy' in the decision to grant a Premises Licence.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:00 AM

Thanks Hamish. Is it really only just the four of us?

I do appear to be giving the legal mind more credit than possibly others are doing? For I do not believe that 'sloppiness' was the reason that the word 'performers' was used in 1964, in wording legislation on Public Entertainment Licensing. For however unfortunate the result of the legislation may be, there would have been a very good reason to use the word 'performers'. It would have been chosen with great care.

Am I now being told that this care was not taken?

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 07:07 AM

Hamish, you are one or two jumps ahead as usual.

THe parliamentary draftsman does not always know what he is doing, as the decades of muddle about "Road Used as a Public Path" demonstrates. Smetimes this leads the law into stragne byways.

I strongly suspect that a performer is to be viewed here as widely as in what used to be the perforemrs' protection acts, and as now is in Part III of the COpyright Designs and Patents Act - where the policy is one of inclusion. If (for example, and not by way of limitation) you sing out loud in the knowledge that others will hear I would expect that to be a "performance". I see no reason (yet) to think otherwise, with all respect to the learned author you cite. But the only ways to get a better idea would be to doble check in say LEXIS or LAWTEL to see if there are any cases if not deciding the issue at least coming close toit, or possibly trying to find Hansard from when the old Act was passed.

By the way, can you scan and post the whole of S182 and surrounding and related clauses, if you have the textbook?

'Twould facilitate rational debate rather than speculation.

I have had a look at the White paper (found in DOgpile search) and if I am looking at the right thing I don't see it saying what you say, so I am probably looking at the wrong thing. Can you provide a link or a url? I guess it must be on the open gov website somewhere.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licensing problem?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 07:38 AM

New legislation is pending in respect of all this, if U understand Lord Bassam of Brighton's reply above in Hamish's initial post.

This would mean that somewhere someone, or more likely a committee of some kind, has been given the job of drawing up draft legislation. And that would normally include a duty of consulting with relevant people, and allowing member of the public to make representations.

So that is the information that we need, so that people like us can make our representations. It's obviously better if possible to get these sort of things right while the legislation or regulations are being drafted, rather than try to get them amended at a later stage.

So any information about that Hamish, or anyone?

This seems to have developed into an exchange between four of us - but there must be other people with useful contributions to make. Especially maybe on that point I raised about what happens elsewhere, especially perhaps Ireland.

Since this is getting rather long, I've started a part 2, with a new title, since that might get a few other people involved.Sessions under threat in the UK?. So I suggest that we adjourn there.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 07:43 AM

Sorry - that link just got us back here. ("There must be some way out of this said the Joker to the Thief..."). This one should do better:Sessions under threat in the UK?

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 01:17 PM

The Unicorn link won't work for me - out of date?

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From:
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 07:50 PM

Please advise if an Entertainments Licence is required for Karaoke at a small bar in Colchester,Essex.The stage holds about 4 people and Karaoke is held twice weekly.
Thank you.Mike Mackenzie

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:53 AM

The answer is YES under the current and the new legislation.

At the moment because MIDI is considered as 'recorded sound' and a combination of that and even one live 'performer' is NOT exempt under S 182 'the-two-in-a bar-rule.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:22 AM

They never seem to have any problems with licensing rules about 10 miles down the road at "The Royal Marine" Walton-on-the-Naze :-)

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 04:23 PM

Is the RM definitely unlicensed and not insisting on membership?

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:58 AM

I hope you don't want to shop them to the authorities ! I think they come in the Tendring area.

I've sung there dozens (possibly hundreds) of times over the last 25 years, and I've never signed a membership form. Perhaps they have got a license now. Have a word with Jon at Thrift Music, as he runs the folk club there. They do of course run many events there during the Folk Festival, and there is also the Shanty weekend during November.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: GUEST,Mikethemike
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:22 PM

I am singer/entertainer.
I read all the questions and answers with intrest.   Could somebody answer this poser please. I have been asked to do an evening for a private party, at a private address, in a marque erected in the garden.   The garden is large but still surrounded by other houses.
I use pre-recorded backing tracks which will be amplified ( but not to loud). People will obiously end up dancing. And I plan to finish about 11.30/12.00. Will the organiser need a licence of any kind ?

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 03:04 PM

Under the old (still in force) rules - no
Under the new rules - not if you were booked direct. There has been some debate about the situation where an agent is contracted to provide the entertainment.

If the event is not genuinely "private" then a PEL will be required.
Under the old rules this isn't your problem. Under the new rules you will be required to show that you used due dilligence to determine that it wasn't a licencable event.

There are a whole separate set of issues about noise and public nuisance. Local authorities are empowered to confiscate sound equipment in certain circumstances.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:05 PM

I am not going to re-read the new Act again now but I think there may be theoretical problems still capable of arising. It was intended to catch private events at members' clubs, and you may get the sidewash.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: GUEST,mike the mike
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:45 PM

Many thanks for a speady reply. This is a booking gained by me and me alone I dont use agents. Do I therefore I assume this is classed as being booked direct? This customer saw me, liked me and booked me.
I have also contacted the local licencing officers at the local police station I will let you all know the resulting answer

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: RichardP
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:54 PM

Unless you have taken the booking more than twelve months in advance, the new Act will have no impact on your gig.

Under either Act the local police are not directly involved the licencing of entertainment, so don't hold out too much hope or put too much reliance on any information they provide.

When the new act comes into force, no musician or singer can commit an offence by singing or playing. Only premises owners/operators and organisers making a profit out of an event can commit an offence. In your case the organiser would not need a licence under the new Act if the event in his marquee was not open to the public. Even then, if the event was more or less a one-off it would be sufficient for him to serve a "Temporary Event Notice" at no cost.

RichardP

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:05 PM

When the new act comes into force, no musician or singer can commit an offence by singing or playing. Only premises owners/operators and organisers making a profit out of an event can commit an offence.

If the musician was also the organiser of an event, where they knew there to be no entertainment permission, they would be committing an offence.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:06 PM

But the offence would arise from the role of organiser not from the role of musician.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:11 PM

I think you would accept that the effect would be the same and for many small-scale (folk) events, the organiser is very often also a participating musician.

Despite the reassuring tone of all of Richard P's postings - it as well for us to to remember that the original intention of the Bill was that musicians would be committing an offence.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 04 - 03:31 AM

All from memory, but...

Also if there is more than one musician and one lends another an instrument there is a technical problem.

Another technical problem is if there is a bandleader and the band is paid by payment to the bandleader.

Finally "In your case the organiser would not need a licence under the new Act if the event in his marquee was not open to the public." I am not clear that this is correct in all circumstances.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: RichardP
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:55 PM

Richard,

You will know better than I that no normal person is immune from prosecution for almost anything. However, in the two cases you site I am sure that you would expect to go to court with an incredibly strong defence case unless and until some judge upsets the applecart.

I think that you are right that there are some circumstances where an organiser in a private event could ned a licence, however I am pretty sure that the case which started this thread is not such a case.

There is a risk of tunring this thread into a parallel general thread on licencing rather than concentrating on the particular case which initiated it. Such a generalisation will benefit noone.

Richard

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: RichardP
Date: 26 May 04 - 10:11 AM

Shambles,

You wrote "Despite the reassuring tone of all of Richard P's postings - it as well for us to to remember that the original intention of the Bill was that musicians would be committing an offence. "

It is certainly true that the original would have had the effect that musicians could have committed an offence. It is impossible to know whether it was an intention or a case of inappropriate drafting. Certainly, the government sought credit for having it removed from the bill during its passage.

Of course the true cynic would accuse them of including it for the primary purpose of getting credit when it was removed.

Whatever the motivations in the past. The Act does not put musicians at risk of preosecutioin for playing music.

Richard

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:59 AM

Certainly, the government sought credit for having it removed from the bill during its passage. *Smiles*

I am sure they did. However, I feel that the hard work and credit for this and many other measures that make the Act (only slightly) less of a 'pig's ear' than it might have been, is due elsewhere.

Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
From: GUEST,mikethemike
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:11 PM

My apologise for not remaining in the thread of things, had to go away!   But, not being one for all this chat thing I didnt realise that so many people would actually bother to read, let alone answer my question.   Many thanks for your replies. I have had an answer from the local police office in charge of licencing, who assures me that after asking his "learned friends", that I will not need to worry about any licencing because this is a private party, not open to the public . But the organisers should be concerned about the Noise problem with the neighbours, which seems a reasonable remark. The gig is in July, I shall let you all know in due course the outcome. In the meantime I shall follow the thread.    Regards