BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5

Subject: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 26 - 11:58 AM

There is a known issue with threads that go over 700 posts so this is a new UK politics thread in anticipation of the old one closing.

Old one is still available to read here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 May 26 - 10:01 AM

This new thread is quiet so far - does that mean everything has settled down in UK politics, or are you all just at a loss for words (as is the case on this side of the pond)?

(Just giving it a boost to be noticed.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 26 - 10:47 AM

There is a bit of a lull while the press regroup to attack the Green Party. They have found that antisemitic doesn't work against a party with a Jewish leader :-D The firt incling I have had is that they wre now jumoing on the TERF bandwagon and claiming that the Greens support transgender folk entering single gender toilets to attack and rape ciswomen...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 May 26 - 11:09 AM

All ~ nearly action stops due to activities re Burnham's attempt to get elected as an MP for Makerfield

Sweeting as a back bencher making his policy statements

Starmer and Reeves making Govt policy "going forwards" and cheaper chocolate and free travel during August school hols!

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 26 - 04:38 AM

IMO, many of the labour front bench are puppets or and supporters of Israel, I hope Burnham might be more independent. however at the moment I might vote either the green party or corbyns party depending on individual candidates in my constituency.
free travel should be extended to railways for old people as it is in ireland, another good social democratic idea would be to provide free school breakfasts,,children can work better if they are not hungry

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 May 26 - 01:33 PM

Free school break fasts are available to primary aged kids already

yes all for free train tickets for OAPs ~ Freedom Riders ~ group been in existence a long time

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 26 - 01:41 PM

"another good social democratic idea would be to provide free school breakfasts,,children can work better if they are not hungry"

While it would benefit some pupils it is taking more responsibility from parents, and placing it elsewhere. As a general measure it is not one I would agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 May 26 - 12:59 AM

Now Nigel that comment is a bit harsh for the poor in 2026 UK ~ though I get the point some may well be taking the state for granted

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 May 26 - 07:00 AM

Poor: Doing it because we must.

Freeloading: Doing it because we can.

There'll always be an overlap. Then there's those* who should do it, but don't, because they don't want people to realise they're poor ....

* The inhabitants of Cockbill Street come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 26 - 01:48 AM

nigel . it is a principle of paternalistic capitalism feed an animal well and it will work better
the reverse princple is portrayed in the song
barnyards of delgaty
the people that are very good at taking the state for granted are the rich who hire expensive accountants to evade tax
As I came in by Turra Market
Turra Market for to fee,
I fell in wi' a wealthy farmer,
The barnyards O' Delgaty.
Linten adie toorin adie,
Linten adie toorin ee,
Linten lowrin, lowrin, lowrin
The Barnyards O' Delgaty
He promised me the two best horses
Ever I set my eyes upon;
When I got home to the Barnyards
There was nothing there but skin and bone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 May 26 - 04:17 AM

> the rich who hire expensive accountants to evade tax

.... Ah: the alpha freeloaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 26 - 07:15 AM

some may be taking the state for granted.......Andrew Mountbatten ....Fergie, a couple of the parker bowles?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 26 - 09:36 AM

imo the website would benefit if the librarian was encouraged to promote it daily on facebook.and promote it on associated groups such as trad music facebook groups

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 May 26 - 01:14 PM

That Starmer has a lot to answer for.
There was no mention of the VWML in the Labour manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 26 - 02:15 PM

another reason not to vote for them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 26 - 06:32 AM

Dick. Was your post of 25 May 26 - 09:36 AM meant for here or the VWML thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 May 26 - 09:10 AM

Our Rach is considering raising petrol by 2p per litre? Hope not ~any petrol and diesel increases affect everything including food

What can be taxed? I still reckon a Capital gains tax on House prices is a good idea ~ devising the calculation would be interesting but I think few would argue that current valuations of housing is too HIGH!

Streeting has his own thoughts on this too

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 May 26 - 01:46 AM

All stops whilst leadership elections for Labour MPs and possible PM fight

What on earth is happening ~ of course MPs will be off on their hols if not now shortly

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 May 26 - 09:51 AM

Youth un employment ~ the unemployment is an issue that was first kicked down the road by employers saying that school leavers were not educated with skills that the employers needed ~ hence they were encouraged to stay at school and university

Then Blair brought in payment for education by those students, I think an American idea ~ this is shown to have its faults which have now come home to rest!

I wonder whether the help centres and call centres for large businesses with UK customers should have UK based helpers/advisers and not in far distant lands where English is not the first language could be considered or am I being racist?

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 May 26 - 12:44 PM

> or am I being racist?

Practical: I find phone conversations difficult at the best of times, and it's worse with call centres where the wage slaves are punished if they go off-script. Having to decrypt the Mumbai Mumble as well just puts the brown-coloured cherry on top.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 May 26 - 05:52 PM

I too have suffered these phone calls and they are not pleasant

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 26 - 02:36 AM

What can be taxed?
What can be taxed? quote
increase betting tax, tobacco tax, alcohol tax
to reduce inflation on goods,encourage transport by electric vehicles by canal and rail and by sail where possible

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 26 - 02:59 AM

There are currently about 1,271 zero-emission Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs) on UK roads. While this marks a 28% year-on-year increase, it represents a tiny fraction of the total 741,010 HGVs registered nationwide.Electric lorries are gaining serious momentum in the UK, especially for urban and regional distribution. However, the transition presents some hurdles:
Pressroom
Newsroom
Electric Freightway helps drive more than a quarter of UK eHGV registrations

    Electric Freightway supported 161 of the UK’s 587 zero emission HGV registrations in 2025 – more than a quarter of the total market
    Electric or ‘eHGV’ registrations rose 171% year-on-year, surpassing 1,000-truck milestone
    New vehicle models and high-power charging infrastructure continue to accelerate real-world adoption of electric freight

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 May 26 - 03:07 AM

So Rachel's NI hike are now being reported as having a negative effect on youth employment ~ WE (or right I) said that would happen

That first budget sounded the death bells for Rach and Keir ~ why did Labour not sort proper tax measures for the wealthy during last 15 years?

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 26 - 03:16 AM

perhaps, because they are being led by the wrong people who are members of the establishment who cow tow to the very rich.
we need harold wilson

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 May 26 - 04:31 AM

if only the trade unions had more power over the labour party policy......i hope andy burnham will give the government a more left and people friendly steer, but i have my doubts - it's all depressingly familiar. some hope with michael foot, tony benn, jeremy corbyn, even ed miliband, then kier liar-starmer and now andy burnham. all of them are victims of the daily mail, the billionaires and the labour right wing. anything progressive -like hope- is ruthlessly suppressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 May 26 - 12:41 PM

Trade Union power in UK Govt would certainly be a BIG influence good or bad and probably include left wing and Corbyn voters ~ interesting position would follow

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 26 - 01:12 PM

UK trade union membership has fallen significantly since its peak of 13.2 million in 1979, dropping to approximately 6.4 to 6.6 million members.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 May 26 - 03:14 PM

In the last election 9,708,716 people voted for Labour.

The party's vote share was 33.7%, the lowest of any governing party on record, making this the least proportional general election in British history.

The percentage of eligible voters was 20.1%

8 out of 10 eligible voters did not vote for Labour.

Was it a surprise that they did badly in the local elections? No.

Let those figures sink in.

I was one of those 9,708,716

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jun 26 - 01:46 AM

Conservatives are suffering it seems at the hands of the far right Revolting party and Labour voters are be devilled by the lies and basic issues regarding immigration putting fear reminiscent of the Nazis 1939 rise ~ bad times

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jun 26 - 01:50 AM

Tourist tax at £2 per room per night?

Families hit by this specifically

Stay at home? What control do visitors have and carparking and facilities must be available at fair prices and huge charges are not acceptable

Ray

I will stay at home from the looks

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 26 - 07:57 AM

Interesting that ‘Fishy’ Rishi Sunak stated last week that the minimum wage is ‘too high’. Am I the only one who finds it difficult to take that kind of opinion from one of the richest men in the UK - and one who has never had to live and bring up a family on Minimum Wage?

How does someone with a combined wealth with his wife of around £640 million have the absolute gall to claim that someone on £12.71 per hour is too well-off? It’s disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 26 - 09:57 AM

i agree

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 01:22 AM

Stabbing 8 times and police handcuff him as he lay dying ~ caused by lies spoken by assailant and nothing to do with police attitude to minority races imv

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 02:13 AM

Police body camera footage released on Monday after the sentencing showed Mr. Nowak lying on the ground, saying “I can’t breathe” and telling officers repeatedly that he had been stabbed. One police officer can be heard saying, “I don’t think you have, mate.” quote from new york times

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 06:22 AM

"Interesting that ‘Fishy’ Rishi Sunak stated last week that the minimum wage is ‘too high’. Am I the only one who finds it difficult to take that kind of opinion from one of the richest men in the UK - and one who has never had to live and bring up a family on Minimum Wage?
How does someone with a combined wealth with his wife of around £640 million have the absolute gall to claim that someone on £12.71 per hour is too well-off? It’s disgusting."

£12.71ph for a 35 hour week = £444.85p.w.
Basic State pension £184.90p.w.
New State Pension £241.30p.w.

I think maybe Rishi Sunak has got a point, particularly as the rise in minimum wage, and extending it to younger workers, seems to have persuaded businesses to reduce hiring.

How rich Rishi (and/or his partner) is should have no relevance to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 07:38 AM

I agree, Nigel, the State Pension is far too low (reportedly only thirteenth amongst European countries). However, the level of the State Pension, a Benefit paid by the State to people on the basis of their age is an irrelevant comparison to the minimum wage paid by employers to working people for their labour. Apples and Oranges.

It’s interesting, and very enlightening regarding your mindset, that you seem to believe that payment for work should be related to the level of a State Benefit. Perhaps you need to take the Tory blinkers off and do a bit of unbiased thinking?

And, if you fail, or more likely in your case, refuse to see the incongruity of a man with a fortune of £640 million telling someone who is paid £445 for a week’s work that he is ‘too well-off’, I suggest there is something sadly amiss with your perception of equity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 08:41 AM

However, the level of the State Pension, a Benefit paid by the State to people
It is NOT a 'benefit' it is part of a contract made between the government and the public paid as a result of us paying NI over the decades.
If it was a 'benefit' it would be a gateway to other benefits.

And, if you fail, or more likely in your case, refuse to see the incongruity of a man with a fortune of £640 million telling someone who is paid £445 for a week’s work that he is ‘too well-off’, I suggest there is something sadly amiss with your perception of equity.
And if you fail to see that the Labour Party's minimum wage policies are causing unemployment, and putting people out of business, maybe you are blinkered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 05:33 PM

In fact, since the 1946 National Insurance Act, the State Pension is legally classed as a Benefit, accepted and described as such by both Labour and Tory governments, including during the fourteen years of Tory mis-rule which ended in 2024, by their Tory press and media, and by the current ‘Blue Labour’ government.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment and I dislike the State Pension being included in the list of State Benefits for the reasons you give, that agreement doesn’t alter the fact one jot.
But none of that lends any credence to your comparison of Minimum Wage v. State Pension - they are unconnected, and it’s a very strange, disjointed thought-process that would believe they should be otherwise.

And have you considered that there are a great many Benefits claimants who either choose not to work because low wages make it more profitable, or who do work but, because of their low wages, have to claim Benefits in order to live?

One of the answers to reducing the Benefits bill and lowering unemployment is to make work more attractive by making pay better. Not a universal panacea, but an important element in the battle against rising Benefits bill and unemployment. I’d have thought that an habitual imbiber of the Tory Kool-aid would have been all for that.

And finally, as usual you’re carefully avoiding the question - do you see the incongruity of a man with a fortune of £640 million telling someone who is paid £445 for a week’s work that he is ‘too well-off’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 26 - 10:51 AM

the incongruity of a man with a fortune of £640 million telling someone who is paid £445 for a week’s work that he is ‘too well-off’? " quote
whoever says such a thing does not understand the consumer society, for the consumer society to work consumers must have money
one person is unlikely to spend spend 64 million, as q

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 26 - 12:05 PM

as quickly as 64 million spend a pound

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Jun 26 - 01:32 AM

NIRP is a pension funded by PAYG ~ aka Pay as you go out of current funds ~ initially by NiC ~ National Insurance funds but probably insufficient to cover the pension bill

New generations need to pay for the pensions bill so children's number need to be kept up!!

This payment provides a fall back where some people have been unableto make private provision by payments to pension schemes etc

Value of NIRP needs to be maintained of course by whatever index by law

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 26 - 03:26 AM

the uk does not need advice from vance

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 26 - 08:09 AM

”This payment provides a fall back where some people have been unableto make private provision by payments to pension schemes etc”

Unable to or, in many cases, unwilling to. As the Pension Scheme Administrator in my final job (13 years the Management Accountant of the UK branch of a multi-national plastics-processing company) it was my job to encourage workers to join the company-sponsored scheme, where optional contribution rates began at 0% employee, 5% employer - effectively a non-contributory pension scheme - up to 5% ‘ee and 10% ‘er.

I was always astonished when employees refused to join - even at the lowest rates of 0% ‘ees and 5% ‘ers - usually because they thought there was either ‘a catch’, or that it would somehow ‘benefit the company’.

There’s an old saying about horses, water, and drinking…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 26 - 01:57 PM

there have been examples of pension schemes here that have defrauded.
Pension schemes that have defaulted with contributors' money typically fall into categories of corporate fraud, Ponzi-style scams, or massive business insolvencies where promised funds could not be paid out.Notable historical and high-profile pension schemes and investment funds that collapsed with contributors' money include
:1. Corporate Raiding and FraudMirror Group Newspapers: In one of the most notorious corporate fraud cases, media tycoon Robert Maxwell secretly raided and used roughly £450 million of his own employees' pension fund assets as collateral for bank borrowings to support his failing business empire.Custom House Capital (Ireland): An Irish investment firm that ran into major regulatory issues when it emerged that €50 million of client and pension money was tied up in unauthorized, high-risk property investments without contributors' consent. The High Court eventually ordered the fund into liquidation and a compensation process commenced for affected pension savers.

2. Unregulated Investment and Ponzi SchemesDolphin Trust / German Property Investments: This scheme collapsed and wiped out approximately €150 million of Irish pension investors' money. The scheme—which sold high-yield property renovations to thousands of Irish pension holders—turned out to be a massive fraud. The owner was subsequently convicted of serious fraud.Solar 21 (Ireland): An investment firm that raised hundreds of millions from mainly older, Irish pension investors for a waste-to-energy project in the UK. The project collapsed, leaving the firm owing investors roughly €300 million and severely impacting their retirement savings

.3. Defined Benefit Deficits and InsolvenciesWaterford Crystal (Ireland): While this was not a "default" due to direct theft, the company's collapse in 2009 led to a pension scheme being wound up with a massive deficit of roughly €110 million. Thousands of former workers saw their promised pension entitlements and retirement savings slashed due to a lack of legal protection surrounding employer insolvency at the time.Equitable Life (UK): A major mutual life insurance company that collapsed due to a severe financial miscalculation in guaranteed annuity rates. It affected over a million policyholders and led to one of the biggest financial scandals in European history, ultimately requiring a government compensation scheme.In cases of unregulated investments, contributors often lose their savings entirely because they fall outside standard investor protection funds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Jun 26 - 01:59 PM

For your information I was a Final Salary scheme pensions administrator for 7 years too when the GMPs first started initially I calculated these manually (1978)

And yes some schemes cost nothing and others not a lot ~ employers of course picked up the cost and benefits per the handbook

Workers and less well off felt unable to pay/join and yes the schemes are now automatic and employees contributions are more than first stated

I did end up lecturing btw

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 26 - 02:28 PM

Ray, my point was that the fact that some people have no pension provision other than the State Pension may be a matter of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 26 - 03:09 PM

if it is a matter of choice, could it be that they have lost confidence because of people like Maxwell, therefore imo the state pension should be increased

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 26 - 03:49 PM

I can’t, for the life of me, understand why anyone would refuse to join an occupational pension scheme to which they had to contribute absolutely nothing but to which their employer contributed an amount equating to 5% of their wage/salary. They had nothing to lose, and everything to gain, yet they were convinced there was a hidden ‘catch’, or they thought ‘the company’ would somehow gain a benefit from their membership, which they would not countenance.

I think the introduction, a number of years ago, of compulsory enrolment in workplace pension schemes is a good thing. Whether the State Pension should be increased is a matter of opinion. As with all State Benefits, it has to be paid for out of taxation - I would be happy to see an increase in State Pension provided it was paid for equitably, by reining-in tax-avoidance schemes taken advantage of by the wealthy, rather than by taxing those at the lower end of the income scale more heavily.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Jun 26 - 12:54 AM

Yes Dick pension schemes have/had trustees but of course these tend to also be CEOs! differing from the professional administrators the law and jobs and conflicts of interest are difficult to reconcile ~ we see such abuses currently with little t of course

For the record pension schemes imv have many anomalies ~ I could go on

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Jun 26 - 02:18 AM

Nil employee private pension schemes generally would be Staff schemes as a employee perk; Workers nil contributions would be hard to contemplate and generally the employer paid twice what the employee paid so typically EE 5% and ER 10% ~ the automatic workplace pension schemes have/had very low "introductory" contributions ~I am no expert on the set up btw ~ but seem to be likely to change in the future due to cost

Ray

Employment is key too and NIRP pensions for not in employment career is problematic ~ setting one rate only? Could be looked at and variable rates or means tested? mm

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 26 - 03:19 AM

If AI replaces jobs there will be less tax to pay for any kind of pensions, and less people with money, means stagnation of the consumer economy. But do the very rich care who control the consumer society care?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 26 - 07:42 AM

”Nil employee private pension schemes generally would be Staff schemes as a employee perk; Workers nil contributions would be hard to contemplate and generally the employer paid twice what the employee paid so typically EE 5% and ER 10% “

The scheme of which I was the administrator for the last thirteen years of my working life was not a staff ‘perk’, it was open to all employees - both staff and manual workforce. The base level of 0% employee and 5% employer - basically a contribution-free scheme - applied to all employees who chose to join the scheme.

For every 1% the employee elected to pay, the employer paid an extra 1% over and above the basic 5%, up to a limit of 10%. There was no upper limit to the employee contribution - as an example, my wife (who also worked for the same company as me until April of this year) contributed 12% and the company contributed 10%.

The Scheme in question is effectively a private pension scheme with one of the UK’s largest insurers/pension providers, so the problem of the company itself having access to scheme funds, e.g. as occurred with the infamous Maxwell scheme, doesn’t exist. The only danger would arise if the provider’s business got into difficulties or, as in the case of Equitable Life (?), failed.

Of course, pension schemes are just one way employees can save for their retirement but, although they can have disadvantages, they also have major advantages.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Jun 26 - 01:10 AM

Yes yes pension schemes depend on the amount paid in by employees and employers and the pension guarantee as per booklet/rules as set out ~

staff non contributory perk probably an historic situation and employers wishing to improve pension provision would seek to include and improve pension benefits by asking for ees contribution

So small contributions could be a barrier to large pensions on retirement ~ for example annuities are very expensive to buy

Actuaries are vital in my view to advise pension companies and work place companies

Yes pension funds should and as far as I know are separate entities with trustees and can be insured schemes with trusted company reputation or underpinned by separate funds and subject to valuation

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 26 - 02:43 AM

You seem to have missed the the point I’ve been making in my last few posts, which is that, based on the premise that the State Pension is too low (the UK being a poor 13th in the ‘league-table’ of European countries’ State Pensions), it seems very odd that employees, especially the lower-paid ones who might find it a financial burden to pay contributions themselves, would refuse to take part in a pension scheme which would cost them absolutely nothing, but which would provide a ‘top-up’ - modest, but better than nothing - to their income from whatever source(s) when they eventually retire.

What I was actually trying to discuss was not the structures, advantages, and disadvantages of various types of pension schemes, but the kind of mindset that makes someone reject an offer of ‘something for nothing’, be it suspicion, distrust, dislike of their employer(s) or, perhaps, simply an attitude of “Retirement is a long way off in the future, I’m living in ‘the now’, let the future take care of itself”?

Any thoughts on that, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 26 - 04:05 AM

perhaps they have been made suspicious by the antics of Maxwell and others?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 26 - 04:12 AM

Mandleson being used by media, to destabilise Starmer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Jun 26 - 04:30 AM

..... or, perhaps, simply an attitude of “Retirement is a long way off in the future, I’m living in ‘the now’, let the future take care of itself”?

I think you have your answer right there.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 26 - 08:42 AM

You may well be right, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 26 - 02:16 AM

Bookmakers have Burnham as next pm after starmer, at one to three on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Jun 26 - 01:44 AM

He is yet to be elected as MP Dick!

I'm with Starmer butUK is hard up and the accrued monies as described earlier are ranking up

Who and what to prioritise and pinching monies from Welfare budget seems a bad move even for defence budget ~ as said before Tories gave money to the wealthy (or failed to tax the rich) and now Water treatment and now armaments need to catch up ~ the piggy bank is empty

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Jun 26 - 02:05 AM

So Uber taxis UK ~ what is this all about?

and person less driver vehicles in general ~ I think I would be somewhat concerned to see a vehicle with NO driver in place ~ some difficulties have already been seen ~ unbelievable, simply NO too many variables imv

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 26 - 03:23 AM

he may yet to be elected but presumably the bookies have done research. I agree about driver less vehicles.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 26 - 03:30 AM

driverless and highly automated vehicles are programmed to obey speed limits, though the exact behavior depends on the system and user settings."
less revenue foe government, but hopefully less speeding accidents, but are they successfully able to avoid animals....
"riverless vehicles can avoid animals dashing out on roads, but their success depends on the size of the animal, visibility conditions, and traffic at that moment. Autonomous vehicles use LiDAR, radar, cameras, and thermal sensors to detect wildlife, calculate collision risks in milliseconds, and apply automatic braking or steering."
not very convincing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jun 26 - 06:25 AM

"less revenue for the government, but hopefully less speeding accidents, "

I'm not sure about that 'Less revenue' bit.
At the moment Uber claim to only be providing the service of arranging contracts (so have a much reduced figure to be taxed on), and the individual car-owners treat themselves as individual (small) businesses so will often avoid VAT registration and the need to account for VAT. I imagine that the new paradigm would be the car owning firm would have to register for VAT (having multiple vehicles under its control, and no drivers) so VAT would have to accounted for on the whole of the fares.
Although there might be a reduction in Income Tax (for any drivers who are employees) all fares would be fully recorded by computer systems, and no dodging the VAT/income tax/corporation tax on cash payments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Jun 26 - 07:33 AM

Flabbergasted by John Healey's resignation as Defence Secretary and very worried by impending Defence budget proposals (to be seen yet)

Nationalisation of Water etc is very costly WE HAVE NO MONEY thanks to Tory misrule and where possible unless "no cost" must be put off make the water companies make the set up work!! and enforce by law until later

Defence spending is key to our way forwards and yes other accrued monies we all know about must be met ~ so where does the money come from?

Hold on to your hats those with money must be taxed to raise vital money for Defence and other important dues

Sorry to see John Healey resign but a point well made imv

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Jun 26 - 09:42 AM

I am disgusted by constant reference to the UK Welfare budget ~ inference that the poor and less well off are being paid too much ~ this needs to be proved ~ what are the facts in this statement please and just to say the budget is too much is not good enough

The poor and those on benefits are an important block of our society and traditionally Labour voters, beware of others causing unrest!

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 26 - 03:08 PM

Nigel, because speeding limits are not broken there is less revenue.
"driverless and highly automated vehicles are programmed to obey speed limits, though the exact behavior depends on the system and user settings." Result, less revenue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 12 Jun 26 - 10:29 AM

> inference that the poor and less well off are being
> paid too much

The good ol' "deserving vs undeserving poor" conundrum. Fall on the wrong side of that, and we'll be back to the days of the dole man refusing people benefits because he saw a piano in their front room.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 26 - 03:21 PM

”inference that the poor and less well off are being paid too much”

Well that’s certainly ‘Fishy’ Rishi Sunak’s opinion - he’s on record recently as saying that people on minimum wage are too well-paid. What a POS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Jun 26 - 01:53 AM

Dan Jarvis ~new defence minister ~ wished him good afternoon last November after his attendance at Barnsley Remembrance Day at the town hall

he will be at the London one no doubt now

The Tories should be ashamed that they plundered the coffers for self fulfilment rather than keeping defence spending up and paying overdue debts

Tax the rich and leave the poor and destitute alone

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 15 Jun 26 - 07:12 AM

Oh dear just seen televised Court of Appeal Judgement up holding UK Govt's decision to Proscribe Palestine Action

Firstly lets look at purpose of this group of people largely made up of Netanyahu's Israel destroying the People of Gaza daily and still are

The as far as we know un constituted group of like minded took to gathering to protest at the deaths and destruction of Palestine and took to displaying Palestine Action on boards etc ~ as far as I am aware there is still no legal entity called Palestine Action

In my view the group is made up of largely conscientious people expressing their human rights views ~ the UK Government firstly has been remiss in agreeing the views of those demonstrating and indeed shown total disregard for the plight of Palestine ~ instead decided to Proscribe none existent entity ~

For me the group consist of largely old biddies who have incurred the wrath and imprisonment for simply showing their heart felt opposite to War between Israel and Palestine and the criminals who have destroyed property ~ "they are seen to be supporters of PA ~ they are NOT ~ but the establishment's view was they are PAs members (members?( is there legal entity and constitution to which they adhere?

the Lady Justice refers to a manual ~ I do not like this where has this come from and leads itself to very deep scrutiny ~ a document put together by whom? and No doubt not seem by many of the old biddies like me ~ Terrorism brought about by Criminals who are not supporters of PA the PAs bulk of supporters wish the violence to stop in Gaza and this action by C of Appeal will be seen as supporting continued political views ~ Proscription is seen to a Govt ruse to stop Free Speech

Time to sort Palestine V Israel Action now?

Appeal to Supreme Court # maybe but the root Cause of Violence by Israel is political ~ needs to stop

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 15 Jun 26 - 11:22 AM

So how can you proscribe a "cause" ~ Palestine Action is NOT an Homogeneous entity it is made up of people with a cause ~ that is to exert pressure by civil protest to encourage UK Govt to stop Israel from killing Palestinians in Gaza etc in my view

These actions fell on deaf ears politically

The criminal actions have been prosecuted quite rightly by old biddies by and large do not as far as I can see agree with such criminal actions

Proscription is a bad political reaction brought about by Govt as it saw a way to limit the thorn in its side from political comment by way of civil protest

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jun 26 - 01:35 PM

Just watched "Last Week Tonight" with John Oliver giving the lowdown on Thursday's election, with a partial primer on Brit politics for us ignorant 'murricans. Can someone give me a first hand account of how to spell 'babbis 'ead' and pronounce it properly. It sorta looked like it could be a tasty though life limiting dish, without the pepto bismal he spilled over it as the final credits lifted.

Truly fascinating and dangerous stuff going on. There is an amazing amount of sideline money available to derail democracy, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 26 - 02:10 PM

"BAB-iz ED"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 26 - 03:06 PM

I am not from the north west, so i might be wrong

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 26 - 04:10 PM

Correct, Sandman. ‘Boiled Babbies-‘Ed’ is Royal Navy slang for a steak & kidney suet pudding.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 26 - 09:46 AM

congrats to Starmer for deal with japan

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Jun 26 - 02:46 AM

Makerfield Election today

Interesting to see result tonight

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Jun 26 - 08:26 AM

I search for information daily ~ Wikipedia and certain newspapers are crying out for donations ~ I am not inclined to do that ~I buy a daily newspaper and watch the news in Britain on a tv I have a licence for, on a paid for Lap top and a tv and a channel provider

I am not inclined to donate any more monies and AI has poked its nose in
to my X chat so I have had a short chat with a person who purported to be a chat friend ~ using my genuine information!! That is not on!

Most disturbing

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Jun 26 - 12:27 AM

Andy Burnham won and gave a good acceptance speech 25k votes from Makerfield constituents

Westminster on Monday as new MP

So where to from here

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Jun 26 - 12:41 AM

Dan Jarvis is new UK Defence Minister and is now at NATO

as the new boy ~ he will pick up the ball from where it now is ~ the Tories spent the monies and we are where we now are!

The Tories are now broken and the barrow boys are promising what UK cannot afford

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 26 - 06:38 AM

If there is a leadership contest (and it looks likely) can Keir Starmer get automatic inclusion, or does he also require the backing of 81 MPs?
If he needs that backing then at least there won't be too many candidates as, with the current parliamentary party make-up only 4 candidates can get the required 20% of votes.
There again, if Starmer gets an automatic entry, that leave 4 possible places available on the shortlist for others.

Any insight?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 26 - 08:24 AM

Nigel, if there is a leadership contest, the current incumbent is automatically included unless he chooses not to take part (presumably by offering his resignation).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 26 - 09:20 AM

BWM: Thanks for that. I have just confirmed it for myself referencing LabourList


As an aside, a few years ago (Possibly back in Wogan era) some BBC R2 travel reporters used BWM as shorthand for Burst Water Main.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 26 - 09:48 AM

LOL! Well, at the age of 79, I do tend to suffer a little from OMWP (Old Man's Waterworks Problems)!

On the Labour leadership front, I find myself conflicted - on the one hand, Starmer has done very well on the International Affairs front, but he's scored some dreadful own-goals at home, e.g. the Winter Fuel Supplement debacle, and I'm concerned that he's strongly influenced by the Zionist element. Andy Burnham has done a good job as Manchester's Mayor, but he's comparatively untried and untested on both national and international levels. He comes across as a 'decent bloke', but I'm worried that he would be 'Starmer Mk 2'. I'm discounting Wes Streeting, I don't believe he has sufficient support to depose Starmer and beat Burnham, but I could be wrong (I recall being wrong once before, a long time ago!) ;-)

But my Border Terrier would make a better PM than either Farage, Tice, or Zia Yusuf, so the important thing is to keep Reform down.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 26 - 03:38 AM

In Swinton, on the Wigan side of Manchester, in the 50s and 60s, steak puds were babbies yeds. I'll not repeat what a black pudding was!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jun 26 - 06:53 PM

In Tesco's recently I saw boxes labelled 'Wee black pudding'. I always though the bodily fluid used was blood ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Jun 26 - 01:34 AM

Interesting times in UK politics ~ firstly Nationalisation means that we the tax payer pick up the bill for the privatisation mis management of the Tory 14 plus years ~ in the Water industry ~ bankruptcy of Thames water has no option imv

Rail is Nationalising when contracts end so should have no cost and Network rail? I am not sure about their future set up

But we the taxpayer is set to foot the bill ~ NO ONE has come with a tax that will hit the well offs and we certainly do not need little t's US and his tariffs anywhere near

So align with Europe for trade but we do not need a joining fee now do we?

So Labour Ministers need to be savvy and be doing the job ~ there is a lot of talent unused and who have sought fame and fortune elsewhere in this big bad world

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 26 - 03:19 AM

Krummy Badenough showing herself to be totally delusional by claiming that the Tory win in Aberdeen South makes them the ‘natural successor’ to Labour in government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 26 - 03:33 AM

time will tell whether Starmer will remain leader.
I do not have detasils of trade deal with japan, but that mi
ght, save him bookmakers have next pm after Starmer, 1to 80 on as Burnham, BUT THAT COULD MEAN 2 YEARS TIME OR SIX MONTHS

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 26 - 05:24 AM

Apologies for spelling Badenough’s first name incorrectly - should, of course, be Krummi.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Jun 26 - 01:18 PM

I have said before that UK Governments have a history of not investing enough in state owned industries. There is never enough money to invest in everything. Look at the problems in finding the money for the defence budget. There is certainly not enough money to finance investment in the water industry.

BBC Radio 4 recently had a series on the water industry. It is worth a listen.

Rinsed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 01:14 AM

Pressure building on Keir Starmer to tender resignation or plan his leaving ~ I would suggest he insists on following the rules as set out for a change of leader mid term

Burnham not quite a certainty for next PM, just yet

The fundamental problem is where is the MONEY to fund accrued debts and future planned events including Defence to come from

A quick whip round from resident billionaires maybe?

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 01:40 AM

If Starmer tenders his resignation, as is being predicted, today, history may well look back and scratch its head as to why he was so hated.

On paper, he has probably delivered more to British working people in such a short time than any Prime Minister for decades. After inheriting the disastrous mess left after 14 years of Tory mis-rule, NHS waiting-lists have fallen, workers’ rights have improved, Rail Operators taken into national ownership, our relationship with the EU and the UK’s global reputation have been improved, the Non-Dom tax-status has been removed, childcare costs are dramatically reduced, the State Pension has been boosted, and we have the lowest homicide rate in 50 years. Half a million children have been lifted out of poverty, and immigration has been drastically reduced.

We are living in an age of billionaire-funded mis- and dis-information, whose sole purpose is to topple democratically elected leaders and insert leadership which favours the wealthy elites over the ordinary working people.

Looks like the game-plan is working.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 01:42 AM

Ray, who does the uk need to be defended against?Itis already occupied by USA bases

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 02:33 AM

All governments tend to be unpopular as a result of our voting system. The majority of voters do not vote for the ruling party. Let's remember that the present government received the lowest share of the vote than any previous government.

It seems impossible to have a sensible discussion about taxes amd spending. The only thing people seem to agree on is that someone else should pay more tax or have their state funding cut.

I do find the following site interesting

Tax Policy Associates

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 05:49 AM

I see Starmer has resigned.

We are living in chaotic times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 07:06 AM

For me, Starmer’s biggest failures have been his perfectly avoidable and highly publicised ‘own goals’, e.g. the Winter Fuel Allowance debacle, his refusal to condemn Israel’s genocidal campaign in Gaza and, possibly worst of all, his apparent support for the Netan-Yahoo regime in Israel - to some degree understandable given that he’s married to a Jewish woman, but still unforgivable as far as I and many others are concerned.

On the other hand, he has shown great Statesmanship in international affairs generally, and succeeded in keeping us out of the Trump regime’s illegal war in Iran - something we should be eternally grateful for, given that Farage and Badenough would have dragged the UK straight into it.

His resignation announcement was impressive in its honesty and grace. Trump could learn a very great deal from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 07:06 AM

Aaaaaaa-a-a-nd, 100!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 07:10 AM

hi Dick

It is not a good idea to rely on Trump's US defence force indeed he has already set his sights on Greenland and other places

As I have said before Russian subs have been seen in UK waters too

Nor should we rely on Nato and European countries for OUR defence either
cannot trust everyone in this day and age I fear

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 07:14 AM

Yes Starmer has resigned as Leader and Andy Burnham on the train from Greater Manchester to take his place at Westminster as an MP

Wes Streeting not to contest Leadership ~ but hope AB will give him a good Ministerial position!

Interesting times

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 09:35 AM

Obviously those who run the internet never expected him to last. Usually spell-checker will ignore 'proper nouns' spelt with an initial capital. Starmer's name still comes up underlined in red for checking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 11:47 AM

*Agree*, BwM. Starmer's main sin was that he wasn't Farridge: he was a good man trying to do a proper job after fourteen years of Tory misrule, under the baleful glare and incessant yapping of the Daily Heil and other members of the Tufton Street gang. I've been on the receiving end of just such bullying, when whatever I did was loudly deemed wrong.

What annoyed Herself about the initial coverage (on all the new channels we could get to) was the the unceasing vamp-till-ready noise of reporters interviewing each other (*bzzt* "Repetition!"), when she was wanting to hear the details of the hot-weather warning being uprated from amber to red.

--- Bugger: it's just been announced that the summit that was supposed to take place with the EU about the Brexit reset has been "suspended", whateverTF that means. That's another thing I will never be able to forgive the Tufties for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 11:58 AM

I have said many times on here that I am no fan of Starmer. I believe he has led the party much to far to the right and he cocked up big time with his false promises but, in fairness, I think he has done some good and whoever inherits the job is starting from a much firmer base. I also think that he is quite a statesman on the world stage and I hope that whoever takes the helm will utilise Starmer's skills at building bridges with Europe and (diplomatically) telling turnip to fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 03:04 PM

When Rishi Sunak replaced Liz Truss, Andy Burnham was calling for a General Election.
Has his viewpoint changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Jun 26 - 11:47 PM

little t says Starmer's policy, that is a move away from oil was his (Starmer's) downfall, well he would now wouldn't he!

Zero carbon and wind and water and sun energy away from dependence on oil is imv correct

Trump's Us is toxic in more ways than one

Yes UK needs to respect US but little t is another matter

UK must stand on its own two feet and the mess caused by Tory mis rule and fiddle left the man in the street with the bill ~ so AB will need to rob the rich somewhere ~ investment funds seem possible?

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 26 - 01:19 AM

the thought that the uk needs to be protected from Russia is laughable imo

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 26 - 01:35 AM

Ray Russia holds one of the largest oil reserves in the world. Russian oil reserves are estimated at 31.5 billion tons of crude oil and 3.7 billion tons of gas condensate as of 30.06. 2025.Russia holds the world's largest proven natural gas reserves, estimated at over 67 trillion cubic meters, and possesses roughly 58 billion barrels of proven crude oil reserve

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 26 - 04:23 AM

I suspect Andy Burnham may just be bowing to tradition, Nigel

Theresa May replaced David Cameron July 2016
General election called June 2017

Boris Johnson replaced Theresa May July 2017
General election called December 2019

Liz Truss replaced Boris Johnson September 2022
Rishi Sunak replaced Liz Truss October 2022
General election called July 2024

So, 4 Tory prime ministers were appointed without calling an immediate election. I never commented or complained about any of those because that is the way British democracy works. We do not elect prime ministers, we elect a government that appoints a prime minister. You never complained about any of those. The Daily Heil or Torygraph never complained about any of those.

Did Andy Burnham only comment on one of them? If so, I think he was being very restrained :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jun 26 - 06:01 AM

I'm not complaining about this either.
Just pointing out an inconsistency from Burnham.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 26 - 06:24 AM

Yours is a very reasonable and sensible viewpoint, Dave, and I agree completely. One of the things that have got right up my nose in recent years is the media’s drive towards presenting our GE’s as almost ‘Presidential’ in character. Completely wrong, and playing right into the hands of those who would undermine, not only our system, but also our nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 26 - 06:26 AM

One of the things that HAS got right up my nose…

Just correcting my own grammatical error before a nit-picker jumps in! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 26 - 07:19 AM

If inconsistent is all he is, Nigel, I will take that over lying, cheating, useless or corrupt any day :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jun 26 - 07:55 AM

Yes, time will tell whether he is better than Starmer. Assuming he gets the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Jun 26 - 11:53 AM

Well UK doesn't want Russian oil but Europe and UK does need to protect itself and any dependencies that an aggressive Russia might fancy taking and the same with US who is displaying unfriendly messages

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 26 - 02:09 AM

Russia has been invaded more by other nations including the UK, Than the other way around.
Whattwas England doing invading the Crimea?
THE usa and china spent more on armaments than Russia
British and English forces have historically invaded or established a military presence in nearly 90% of the world's countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 26 - 03:38 AM

The evidence of the past ten years is that the USA presents by far the greatest threat to world political and economic stability.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 26 - 01:42 PM

well said, I think there is a major ecoonmic recession coming in the next few months

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Jun 26 - 10:52 AM

Trump's US has overstretched itself imv and will suffer in a number of of areas from his dictatorial methods

Let us hope US has good presidential candidates who know what is needed and can plan US turn round ~ gawd 'elp the US little t has left a awful mess through his unnecessary war and inability to restrain Netanyahu

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jun 26 - 11:50 AM

To say nothing of his "executive orders" to trash government agencies and how money is managed. The justice system is a hit squad and the supreme court is a rubber stamp. A LOT of work ahead. Unfortunately, the Farage influence in the UK is like the Trump/Miller/Vaught influence here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 26 - 12:10 PM

We are only permitted ONE UK Politics thread - could we stick to UK politics here, and keep Trump to the appropriate ‘Drumpf’ thread please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Jun 26 - 02:52 AM

Yes UK ~ Burnham being lined up for new Labour Leader/PM ~ his main difficulty like the previous 7 in 10 years is where does the Money come from to finance the owed monies? and expand the economy, what of the plight of Welfare and cutting payments to the needy who will of course die

Is taxation the answer? No one has come up with the acceptable answers or plans yet

So as usual the poor taxpayer will be hit and of course ABs popularity will drop ~ he may try to tough it out but people have had enough of this ~ so look at the big sources of finance ~ do we want to borrow for the future and incur higher debt?

Answers on a post card to no 10 then, eh

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 26 - 04:27 AM

So as usual the poor taxpayer will be hit

Maybe the rich taxpayer will be hit instead! If the higher rate of tax went up and the loopholes that allow tax avoidance were closed they may start to close the gap between rich and poor and add funds to the coffers at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Jun 26 - 02:47 PM

Talk of devolution to the UK counties ~ not a good idea imv

We are not set up with the Governmental machinery or even the cleverness of Local Authority councillors ~such local taxation likely to be met with fierce opposition

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jun 26 - 05:15 PM

Ray: Yes UK ~ Burnham being lined up for new Labour Leader/PM ~ his main difficulty like the previous 7 in 10 years is

I believe that the oft quoted 7 PMs in 10 years is intended to include Burnham.
But (no matter how many times you read it) it's false anyway.
Cameron 'jumped ship' on July 13th 2016.
Unless Burnham is in place by the same date this year, it will NOT be 7 in ten tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Jun 26 - 03:09 AM

Nigel well no, simply the 7 is a matter of fact imv ~ the difficulty I am trying to say is that shortage of money and policies and strategies installed have favoured the rich and that is quite apart from immigration

Immigration is an issue WE (UK)alone should not be having ~ complex issues where people are looking for a safe haven rightly or wrongly and WE are seen as a country to come to and the other countries in between are happy to ignore and chaperon them through ~ it is a World issue and we are end of the line ~ Farage and his merry men have latched on to a difficult political UK problem quire unfairly imv I have no answers

UK has been stitched up literally by leaders working hard for their supporters and finding the electorate and own MPs not satisfied over the years

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 26 - 07:53 AM

The number of PMs is, in my opinion, a result of politics becoming a reality show instead of about policy and good governance. As I mentioned before, we do not elect PMs in this country but the media seem to have decided that if a PM is unpopular, they have to go. Sad that some people are so easily wound up :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Jun 26 - 01:17 AM

The reality will tell over time ~ is Burnham the Messiah ~ who knows

Rau

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 29 Jun 26 - 11:49 AM

Interesting article in The Register:

Digital ID brain trust will meet behind closed doors as minister ducks cost questions

Minutes will not be published, and MPs still have no answer on the group's budget or how its members were chosen

.... Follow the link; it bears reading in full. It drew the following forecast from commentard "elsergiovolador":

Future

Three friends share a flat in London. Two crack open a few cans, while the third is knackered and goes to bed. He can't sleep, as his increasingly drunk mates loudly slag off the government.

Fed up, he gets up for some water and sets up an order on his phone. Back in the room, he leans towards the smart speaker on the shelf and shouts:

"Case officer, large pizza to flat 62, please."

His mates howl. Twenty minutes later there's a knock at the door, and a courier hands over a pizza. The room goes silent. His friends pale, horrified at what they've just seen. The party's dead, and he goes to sleep.

He wakes to an empty flat. The others are simply gone, their rooms cleared. No message, no explanation.

Then his phone buzzes, a notification from Digital ID app:

"Thanks for your order! The case officer on duty rather enjoyed your pizza gag."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Monique
Date: 29 Jun 26 - 02:07 PM

The link doesn't work (a part of the url is missing). It's LINK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jun 26 - 05:59 AM

Ray: "Nigel well no, simply the 7 is a matter of fact imv ".

it is either 'a matter of fact', which I have clearly pointed out is NOT the case, or it is 'in your view' which is just another way of saying 'a misguided opinion'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 30 Jun 26 - 12:08 PM

Thanks for the fix, Monique: I noticed the clipping of the subject, but not of the URL. Argh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jul 26 - 01:22 AM

Nigel you have left me bemused ~ what is the main point in the postings ?

the 7 please correct and stop arguing on senseless trivia ~ I can take it and opinion is opinion but little t and Putin are the enemies ~ postings to mudcat do not need to be "bitter" follow the etiquette I am you "comrade" in the end

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jul 26 - 01:29 AM

Burnham assuming his Leadership and PM role intends to have a No 10 in Greater Manchester ~ we will see how that goes!

Too expensive to have a General Election and risky due to the New parties


Sir Keir ~ £Bs in armaments not all "fully funded" defence spending to be brought up to date due to Tory mismanagement and trump stamping his feet

Costly but work for the armament industry in UK one assumes

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jul 26 - 01:41 AM

Yes Nigel I have rechecked the 7 ~ I did before too ~my reference is The Times and simply says 7 and lists them all including Burnham which may be correct in time ~ but so what ~ no don't start please!

The point for me is that UK is short of money and of ways to get that except through taxation of thee and me

Always a good idea to start wi nowt!!

Tories have mismanaged and fiddled the economy for year 14 plus ~ effects still in progress of course

Nationalisation has plus and minus points and cost of a ticket to ride?

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 26 - 04:01 AM

Yes Nigel I have rechecked the 7 ~ I did before too ~my reference is The Times and simply says 7 and lists them all including Burnham which may be correct in time

Unfortunately even "The Times" is not infallible:

David Cameron (Conservative): May 11, 2010 – July 13, 2016
Theresa May (Conservative): July 13, 2016 – July 24, 2019
Boris Johnson (Conservative): July 24, 2019 – September 6, 2022
Liz Truss (Conservative): September 6, 2022 – October 25, 2022
Rishi Sunak (Conservative): October 25, 2022 – July 5, 2024
Keir Starmer (Labour): July 5, 2024 –
Next Prime Minister (possibly Burnham) will not be appointed until (at the earliest) July 17/18, later if there is a contest for Leader of the Labour Party.

If from the above (checked) information you can identify a period of 10 years in which there have been (or will have been) 7 Prime Ministers, feel free to say so.
Otherwise accept that you have been wrongly informed, and stop repeating 'Fake news'

The next opportunity for there to have been 7 PMs in 10 years is if the incoming PM is replaced before 25th July 2029, which is possible, although the next general election must be called by August 2029.

If my information proves to be incorrect, I will, of course, admit the fact. But I don't expect to need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jul 26 - 06:39 AM

Nigel you have missed the point ~

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 Jul 26 - 08:55 AM

This is getting boring. It's no wonder that we are restricted to one UK politics thread at a time.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jul 26 - 11:03 AM

"Sir Keir ~ £Bs in armaments not all "fully funded" defence spending to be brought up to date due to Tory mismanagement and trump stamping his feet."

The one thing i can agree with Trump on is that Europe has not contributed enough to its own defence.

Why should America being paying more.

Every single UK Government for the last 50 or 60 years has under invested in defence spending. It is the nature of the beast. If you want more investment in nationalised industries you need more money. How many people would vote for a party that wants to raise taxes?

The majority are happy for taxes to be raised as long as someone else is paying them.

I speak as someone who had to pay tax on my state pension last tax year. Will have to pay it again this year.Those are the facts of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Jul 26 - 12:33 PM

Rain Dog ~yes agreed ~ McSweeney has owned up that no plans for incoming Labour Govt had been properly prepared as to where taxes and Govt income was to come from had been made

So Our Rach ends up taxing by not raising Free pay allowances again, removing weather payments and increasing NICs on low paid all a sign of desperation imv all good voter plans ~ NOT

and still talk from all quarter of taking welfare payments off as the bill is too high! Do we live in USA? yea gods

So Head lines will be Welfare benefits taken off needy " Eat or Heat deaths triple" maybe?

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Jul 26 - 12:35 PM

Farage hits a media barrage on tv ~ his funding comes into question ~ like US should billionaires and such be permitted to influence politics?

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 26 - 09:21 AM

If you want more investment in nationalised industries you need more money. How many people would vote for a party that wants to raise taxes?

Not strictly true, Raindog. There is a changeover period when the current owners of the industry are paid off but after that initial purchase, the idea is that the profits made from that industry are ploughed back into the government coffers rather than into the hands of the rich few. The problem we have in this country is that when the power companies, railways, buses, etc. were nationalised, us taxpayers did foot the bill. Then the money grubbers of the Thatcher era decided it would be a good idea to sell of those industries, that we had already paid for, to line their own pockets and those of their friends.

I have no idea whether the nationalised industries would have, by now, started to pay for a huge amount of government spending. Simply because they were not allowed long enough to prove anything before they were sold off again!

As to voting for a party that would raise taxes. Well, yes, I would but only if I could see those taxes being put to good use. I would not be happy for this administration to raise the tax bill to buy the railways and water companies and then the next lot to sell them off again. It would be a good way of redistributing wealth the wrong way! Raise taxes on high earners and close loopholes to pay for renationalisation. Then, as the profits begin to roll in, drop the tax bills. It is investing in the future which, surely, the people with all the money can see the sense of. Can't they? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jul 26 - 11:37 PM

Nationalisation means we the UK taxpayer pays for the ill gotten gains

paid to the capitalist owners such as in Thames Water, where by some

jiggery pokery they avoided cleaning water and sewage but managed to pay

dividends and such to private equity owners ~ so now we Nationalise and

continue the circle

The MT era model would only work is it had been properly overseen ~ you know who and what is to blame

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Jul 26 - 04:14 PM

I have some difficulty with wanting out and out Nationalisation as you will see from the above postings

I hate that we would pay for the ill doings of the architects of the model abused by the Tories to pay unearned dividends for not doing the water cleaning jobs; some ones heads should have rolled by know and as you know fining is and was self defeating

What a stich up

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Jul 26 - 11:40 AM

So Farage resigns as MP and forces a Bye Election ~ the media and other pressures have got to him and wishes for re election by his constituents to reinforce his standing as an MP ~ for his party too

W will see, a brave move

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 26 - 11:55 AM

He’s trying to dodge investigations into his finances, nothing more, nothing less.

When he bleats, “I’ve done nothing wrong!” the one thing you can be sure of is that he has done wrong. A grifter and a fascist rabble rouser, unfit to be a Member of the Mother of Parliaments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 26 - 12:10 PM

“I am the most physically and verbally attacked public figure or politician of modern times - milk shakes all over me!”

I think Jo Cox’s family might have something to say about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jul 26 - 04:19 PM

“I am the most physically and verbally attacked public figure or politician of modern times - milk shakes all over me!”
I think Jo Cox’s family might have something to say about that.

I think he may be right, depending on your use of language. "Most"
He may well have been subject to the most (greatest number) of physical and verbal attacks.
Jo Cox, meanwhile, was subject to the 'most serious' attack.

And, with regard to the Clacton by-election, BBC news tea-time stated that all the other (major) parties have said they would not stand against him. Strange how they were all willing to contest Makerfield when Labour forced a by-election. Are the other parties suddenly taking a 'principled stand'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 26 - 04:55 PM

Perhaps they are taking a ‘principled stand by not aiding and abetting him in a dodge to avoid scrutiny of his financial chicanery?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 26 - 06:06 PM

TThe Mad Hatter's Tea Party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Jul 26 - 06:31 PM

Herself heard that Count Binface has said to the major parties: "Stand aside, chaps, and let me deal with him." He's promised to build one council house.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Jul 26 - 11:50 PM

Major parties not to contest Farage's constituency of Clacton

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 02:00 AM

"The Labour Party arguably could have been lost, but I stepped up as leader and with others we saved the Labour Party."quote Starmer
more MAD HATTERY

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 06:17 AM

"The Mad Hatter's Tea Party"
According to the original book, no such party, no such event.
Lewis Carroll never referred to 'The Mad Hatter'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 07:50 AM

Clearly, references to ‘Mad Hatters’ may have a basis in the phrase, ‘Mad as a Hatter’ which, of course, derives from the mental-health issues commonly suffered by hatters in years gone by which are believed to result from the use of mercury in the hat-making process.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 08:04 AM

Yes, I know the derivation of 'mad as a hatter'. But 'Mad Hatter's Tea Party' is clearly a reference to 'Alice's Adventures in Wonderland' where there is no character by the name/title 'The Mad Hatter'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 08:19 AM

Yes, Nigel, I know all that - you’re not the only one here who had a decent education. There was, however, a chapter entitled ‘A Mad Tea Party’, at which the Hatter and the March Hare were present. Another possible reason for the frequent (mis)quotation.

However, I was simply putting forward a possible explanation for references to ‘The Mad Hatter’ for Sandman’s benefit. As it was he who brought ‘The Mad Hatter’ into the discussion, I didn’t think naming him would be necessary. Obviously my mistake…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 5
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 08 Jul 26 - 09:21 AM

I *wish* I could remember where I read one proposed answer to "Why is a raven like a writing-desk?"^† It may or may not have been Martin Gardiner's Annotated Alice; I do remember being more annoyed than somewhat at the author, on finding he'd left spotting the mathematical in-jokes as an exercise for the reader.

Meanwhile, someone should put "IN THIS STYLE 10/6" on a card, and pop it into Farridge's hat-band.

† "Because there's a B in both."