BS: Recipe for disaster?

Subject: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:44 PM

US voting patterns published in today's Sunday Times make disturbing reading.

Black voters went 95% to 4% Obama.

Hispanics went 67% to 31% Obama.

Whites went 55% to 43% McCain.

The population of the US is composed of, 65% white, 13% black, 15% hispanic, 7% other.

Is the claim that the election of Mr Obama will solve the "race problem" in America spurious?.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:57 PM

It depends. How much progress would we have made toward solving the race problem if Obama had not been elected?

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:01 PM

Shouldn't that be:

Non-Hispanic "white" 65%
Non-Hispanic "black" 13%
Hispanic ("white" and "black") 15%
other 7%

Put it that way, and it seems quite likely that in fact more "white" voters will have backed Obama than will have backed McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:05 PM

Obama got a higher percentage of the white vote than any Democratic candidate since Jimmy Carter.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: pdq
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:07 PM

The numbers and presentation in Ake's initial post look quite reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM

Given these figures Jim, the election of Mr Obama may prove to have exacerbated the problem in the long term, especially if we are heading into a very deep recession with all the social and financial problems which will accompany it...

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:10 PM

ake, you're just borrowing trouble. Forget about it. Go worry about something that needs to be worried about. This isn't one of them.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:16 PM

Also, given the black voting figures and if things start to get tough, wont Mr Obama be wrongly perceived as a "black" president, when in fact he will continue to be a "corporate" politician.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM

Doesn't "recipe for disaster" seem a little hyperbolic? It's far from obvious how those statistics imply some kind of forthcoming "disaster" ...

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:26 PM

Race is just one factor but becoming less important all the time; "solve" is rhetoric. Other factors were important and, I think, decisive.

The shift of Hispanic voters to Obama engineered largely by the efforts of Bill Richardson.
The broad dislike of Bush, among all but the most faithful of his supporters. These supporters in general were older, many not immediately affected by the downturn in the economy (house paid for, some savings, etc.). McCain could not remove the Bush burden from his shoulders.
The desire for change, although no clear policies were outlined by either party.
The banking failures. The party in power is blamed although the syndrome is international, and has been building for some years.
Global, not just U. S. action, is necessary to keep jobs, loans, growth going. World economies have become interdependent and close cooperation is necessary.

Just 53% of voters supported the Democratic party. If the economy is not seen to have stabilized or improved in the next four years, there will be a drop in support.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

He got more than half of the White vote. That's enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:59 PM

You know, Ake, as has been intimated above, the voter numbers in America rarely speak truly in specific cases. I don't know how it is in Scotland- 99.9%White? - but one of the strengths of the US culture, imo, is our diversity. If one takes the specifics apart it is bewildering, no doubt, especially to people at a distance. But except for the occasional disaster we seem to muddle through.

My feeling is that most people in the US currently are living in a state of relief. And hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Alice
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:06 PM

People in America have not been this optimistic for a long, long time, in spite of the state of the economy.

So, in the words of John Prine:

listen up Buster, and listen up good
Stop wishing for bad luck and knocking on wood.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM

Why has the election of a right of centre corporate lawyer induced this state of euphoria Alice?

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:07 PM

Maybe because he has woken up a part of the electorate, the young and black voters, who, in the past, did not see much point in voting for what could be considered to be establishment figures.

Maybe because he is articulate and intelligent, but with enough humanity to come across being closer to being 'one of us' than any of the usual suspects.

Maybe because we have got rid of Bush and have not put a Bush clone in his place.

Maybe because this man talks about helping the middle classes directly, rather than spouting on about trickle down policies that certainly don't seem to have worked up to now.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:10 PM

Hi Ebbie! In fact, Scottish society is quite ethnically diverse.

We have many large, established, Asian communities, also immigrants from central and Eastern Europe who have arrived over the last few years.

There are Italian and Chinese communities in most cities.

Race is not an issue in Scotland,but religious sectarianism is.
There are Scots who would have no problem voting for a Muslim, but who would rather die than give their vote to a Catholic

With the number of guns in circulation in the US, I would think a white conservative backlash to be a distinct possibility, if we enter a lengthy recession.
The black voting pattern combined with the support of American "liberals" must add to the toxicity of the mix...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:14 PM

Holy fuck! Are you people serious? You vote by secret ballot (I thought), but this is the second thread I read wherein someone quotes what "faction" voted which way.

I think this is sickening. I am truly troubled by this. Am I the only one?

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Alice
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:20 PM

jacqui summed it up

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:24 PM

Jacqui....I would be mightily more impressed by Mr Obama if he gave a little consideration to helping the lower class!
But of course that would not be within his Democratic remit.
The past election has been a triumph for the "liberal" media.
The effects of his presidency on America and the wider world will not become apparent for some time.
If there are riots and civil unrest in the future, they will not be about the condition of the underprivileged in American society, but rather the old sores of race and power....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:28 PM

The media poundits, Gnu, rely a great deal on 'exit polls'. There have been times when they were not reliable- for whatever reason, whether. That is one way that a 'faction' can be identified. Another would be when a certain district is heavily Chinese or Black or whatever distinct population predominates.

Otherwise, I have to say that it mystifies me too- and bothers me.

It remains to be seen what the end result will be of having a self-identified Afican-American (Kenyan-Kansan?) at the helm if conditions in the US or global economy go really bad. My sense of it - and my hope - is that tbe farther along we go, the less the President's color will matter. We already had a taste of it, imo, the other day when he held his first press conference. His color mattered not a whit; the man is articulate, well spoken and easy to listen to. SO different from the clown that has been in the office for so long. This is an intelligent, thoughtful man.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM

Ebbie said, "This is an intelligent, thoughtful man."

There ya go.

Enough with the bullshit. Time to join arm in arm and get to work. Like I asked... are you people serious?... or intelligent and thoughtful?

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Alice
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:50 PM

Ake, you sound like you are living on your own angry planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:19 PM

People weren't just voting on the basis of the colour of the candidate, either in this election or previous ones.

The proportion of votes for Obama in all those categories - Non-Hispanic "white", Non-Hispanic "black", Hispanic ("white" and "black") and Other - was higher than it had been for Gore or Kerry.   

And both those candidates, though white as they come, also got the overwhelming majority of Non-Hispanic Black voters - the proportion of those votes that Obama got was not all that much higher.

There are no grounds for assuming that race was the main reason why a significant proportion of Non-Hispanic "white" voters continued to support the Republican candidate. And while Obama's "race" may have been an additional motivating factor for many people, there is no evidence that it was a major reason for the shift in voting patterns.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM

We're talkin' about middle American perceptions here McGrath, the Bush administration had become so unpopular that someone on another thread was moved to say that "if Obama was white the Dems would be 20 percentage points ahead."

The "liberal" media got behind him when they realised there could be "months of milage in this one" the first "black" president

Remember the Blair honeymoon? How many years did it take before everyone realised what he was?

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM

So if Obama did turn out to be a disastrous president there'll be people who'll say that's because he's not "white"? I imagine they'd be giving plenty of other reasons.

I mean people didn't slag off Tony Blair because he was Scottish.

"We're talkin' about middle American perceptions here" I'm not sure we are. Surely we're talking about perceptions about middle American perceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:59 PM

Solving the race problem!!!

It won't happen in one generation. There are too many rednecks out there and too many blacks with chips on their shoulders. Also there are many blacks who adopt a servile attitude when dealing with us Honkeys (I have a dear friend who does that and it makes me cringe every time I meet him. Now that we have a black president, I think I'll talk to him and tell him that he can be himself now.).

Let's hope that Obama puts a lot of effort into resolving these issues. He will have some success with the blacks but I can't see that he will make much of an impression on the rednecks.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:05 PM

Ake, I live in a state so scarlet it makes blood blush. Gun sales are up -- so in unemployment.

But everyone, or almost every because I have to discount the 1% or less lunatic fringe, has a "wait and see" attitude.

There will be no race war. Perhaps a class conflict, but race...nah.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:07 PM

""Surely we're talking about perceptions about middle American perceptions. "

Very droll Mr McGrath......:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:13 PM

Alice...I thought you "liberal" Dems appreciated intelligent thoughtful men.....or is it just the ones who correspond to your point of view?....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:17 PM

Yes Rap, they'll wait...till the jobs go...till the banks repossess the house..... THEN we'll SEE.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:28 PM

Ake, imagine Jude's Glaswegian accent,when I tell you that you are being a fookin' idjit and to stop! And, what's with this "we" shite? Do you no live in Scotland, anymar?

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Alice
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

On Meet the Press today, Tom Brokaw said that now more than since 1960, people were coming up to him telling him they want to get involved. People now do feel invited "in", to get involved in creating the future of our country.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:15 PM

Somebody called Obama, I think, a "right of centre corporate lawyer". Must be a Brit, by the spelling. He is "right" only by reference to an electorate that has a real socialist or left-wing party, which the US does not. The US also does not have a real right-wing party, although it certainly has its fair share of single-issue fringies. And, BTW, what corporation did he ever work for?

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:17 PM

IMO, there is NO race problem in the USA. There is an idiot problem. The idiots are dying out.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM

Ake: "Right of center"? Anyone who thinks Obama ran "right of center" needs to buy a new compass. While we are about it, Ake, would you please define "corporate politician"

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:28 PM

I get the distinct impression that most Americans now have a feeling that the USA finally HAS a future.

I don't think many dared to consider the future while it depended on the somewhat limited ability of the previous incumbent.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:36 PM

Ake, dude, your data is cooked and your mind is on making bad hash. Get off this shtick.

Obama has more than enough attention on the lower class. I f you bother'd reading his platforms and his tax porposals you would recognize that. Furthermore, he is no corporate lawyer, but a law professor, and Senator, and community organizer. Your pulling all this black smoke out of your own troubled subconscious, but it is not intelligent or thoughtful.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:59 PM

I think some confusion may be caused by the constant use of the term term "middle class" in Obama's speeches. I believe this doesn't mean quite the same thing in the USA as it does in the UK. Or at least it hasn't got the same overtones.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Alice
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:08 PM

No, it doesn't mean the same thing. We are apples and oranges. Even on Mudcat we've often discussed how language in the UK and the US is different, and the way we use the word "middle class" is an example.

We are supposed to be a classless society. But instead of middle income, people have the habit of saying middle class. The label does not even have a clear definition.

This quote is from the Wikipedia page on "American middle class".

"Everyone wants to believe they are middle class...But this eagerness...has led the definition to be stretched like a bungee cord — used to defend/attack/describe everything...The Drum Major Institute...places the range for middle class at individuals making between $25,000 and $100,000 a year. Ah yes, there's a group of people bound to run into each other while house-hunting.
—Dante Chinn"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:59 PM

Very true, Alice. I think that we have (at least according to how we think of ourselves) people on welfare (and you'd better not call them lower class!!), the middle class and the wealthy. The vast majority of hourly workers consider themselves to be firmly in the middle class.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 10:23 PM

Gnu Re Factions-

It is very easy to figure out from the detailed vote breakdowns compared against detailed demographics. Individual ballots are secret, but put together by voting precinct and district, the story is there, and this information is on record.

Donations are public, so if one has contributed to a candidate, the name of the candidate, the name of the donor, the amount, zipcode, street address all appear on maps that one can search.

For an example, I set Albuquerque, postal code 87124, to see the pattern there. 46 people donated $20823 to Republican candidates. 123 people gave $124,974 to Democrats (mostly Hillary and Bill Richardson).
A few of the donors in the code area-
Don Chalmers, (auto dealer)- $12500 to DNC
Celina Sandoval (homemaker)- $2300 to Hillary
Robert Sandoval (Atty.)- $2300 to Bill Richardson
James Jimenez- $2300 to Bill Richardson (The occupations are all there, but I won't cite them)
Dave Patterson- $1100 to Republican NC
Etc. Occupations and usu. the institution worked for are all there.

Examples at the other end-
Cizan Patsy, (homemaker)- $3 to G. W. Bush
Victor Read, (retired)- $60 to RNC

See fundrace; http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/neighbors.php
This site was pointed out in another thread, but I've forgotten which.
The sites on which this Huffington Post synthesis is based can be determined through Google, but it takes effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 01:53 AM

I have been advised by a very dear friend, that rational discussion is impossible on this issue.
Many of the Christian right, appear to have defected to the Dems, and view Mr Obama's election as the "second coming".

Kat...Aye ah dae bide in Scotland, but perhaps you may have noticed that the actions of an American Govt have a habit of impacting on this side of the Atlantic, for example finance and war.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Jayto
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:08 AM

I am a rural southern white male age 36. I voted for Obama and I am proud of my vote. Demographically (according to the news channels) I would have voted for Mcain. My state and county did go for Mcain. Race never entered my mind. I think race would not have played as big of a factor period if the media would have let it die. The media is now constantly pushing race race race and it disturbs me greatly. They are fanning the flames of some serious issues. I know sensationalism is the rule in American journalism anymore but this makes me sick. They are fueling the fear that could erupt into something bad. Obama is a good man and a (I hope) will be a great President. Now in that statement I didn't say African American I said man. I refuse to say African American because he is a man not a label. There is no need to point out his ethnicity because he is a man period. I am scared though that the constant reminder of his ethnicity by the media is going to ingnite more racial tension than we have seen in years. If the media would let it go I feel th whole race issue would go with it. America has progressed dramatically regarding the issue of racial inequality. In some ways we haven't progressed that much. Electing an African American president is a big step. Reminding everyone every few minutes he is African American is not a step at all. A true step would be not mentioning it at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:23 AM

Well, Jayto, I myself am pretty tired of European-American who's currently President. I myself am Viking-American and my wife is Irish-American with a touch of Alsace-American. We have a friend who is Chinese-Canadian-American, but since he plays the piobrach you really have to forgive him. And I have a friend who is Indian-American, his name is Greg Standing Horse and he considers himself to actually be a Miniconjou-American. Hugh, of course, is Japanese-American and Kathy, my #2 at work, is a Rancher-American. Andy, who is on my Board, has the same problem I do: his ancestry is Mexican-American (like Dave, who is also on the Board), but we all consider ourselves to be "American". Even the piobracher, only he wants his family tartan: a golden dragon on a red silk kilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM

He is no more black than white. He is of mixed race, and he refers to himself as a "Mutt".

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:47 AM

When you come right down to it, we're ALL mutts.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 11:27 AM

When one talks of the "race" of public figures, it's too easy to get confused among at least three separate considerations:

1. On the surface, we SEEM to be speaking of the presumed source of the biological stock of the individual.   BUT

2. We might be speaking of things like relative skin color, or certain physical characteristics like nose shape or lip shape. OR

3. We may referring to perceived membership in "black culture", as divined from an amorphous combination (subjectively judged) of vocabulary, accent, music preference, expressed sociopolitical views, religious approach, and on and on.

As to the first, note that there are a number of different dark-skinned biological stocks in the United States, only a certain set of which are "African-American". One clear example is "Indian-Indian/Americans", who frequently have dark skins, but don't share the other physical characteristics in the second category.

Indeed, some in the African-American community had the quibble as to Obama that, while he had African roots on one side, his descent doesn't come down through the slavery experience in the US.

As to the first category (as has been observed by previous posters), Obama is just as white as he is black.

As to the physical characteristics, set 2, his features do not particularly declare him as "black" or "African-American", with the exception of his relatively light complexion.

As to the third set, his speech and his education certainly don't suggest putting him in the "black" group. His religious affiliation, of course, would tend to put him in the black culture. I don't have any idea as to his music preferences. His expressed political positions seem to put him right in the middle of the general US culture, it seems to me. He does, of course, express some particular identification with African-Americans, which I think is to be expected. Here again, some in that community think that he is much too mild in that identification/expression.

As someone remarked above, I think that, after Obama takes office and has been at the business of governing for a while, the "race" will fade to where it belongs--insignificance.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Jayto
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 11:35 AM

Well said both Dave and Rapaire. I don't care about any heritage I just hope the best for Obama and our country. I am trying to contain it but I am jumping up and down that he won :) I hope the whole race talk dies away quickly I am sick of hearing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Alice
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 11:46 AM

I'm concerned about the misinformation that has been reported about Obama in the UK, if Ake calls him "corporate". You have some very bad propaganda going on over there if that's the impression the reporting has given you.

Subject: RE: BS: Recipe for disaster?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:01 PM

The idiots are dying out.

But not half fast enough.