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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,mg Date: 25 Aug 01 - 10:11 AM I vote for never changing the hers to his in any song, but especially in such a beautiful song as this. That is song tampering in my book. mg |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,bluebird Date: 25 Aug 01 - 05:58 PM So what if he was a grumpy old git as they always say of Robert Frost. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Aug 01 - 06:05 PM Yeah, there's quite a few of us GOGs around... |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Phil Cooper Date: 25 Aug 01 - 06:47 PM I agree, great thread. I like Dick Gaughan's version from "Kist O' Gold." I had the idea of singing the song to the tune of Dobbin's Flowery Veil (from Len Graham's rendition of that song with Skylark) and Raglan sings ok with that tune too. I've felt uncomfortable with the secret sign verse and don't sing it. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: ard mhacha Date: 26 Aug 01 - 08:04 AM Phil, I also would feel uncomfortable singing Dobbins flowery "VEIL", sounds better sung as VALE. The Vale is only a few miles down the road from me, between Armagh and Portadown. Paddy Kavanagh is looking down on us and enjoying leaving another wee bit of controversy. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 01 - 10:02 AM I've always wanted to believe that "The Enchanted Way" was a reference to the street that runs along Grand Canal between Leeson and Baggot St. bridges, where Kavanaugh's statute is found...anyone who has spent time there knows just how enchanted it is, especially in the fall. Many lovers young and old stroll along the Canal there. There are definite resonances with traditional themes in Irish love lyrics in this poem. But someone's reference to angels being one of them struck me as rather odd. Angels aren't all that common in the folklore, at least not the older stuff. Common to many Irish love lyrics is the theme of poor country boy in love with daughter of wealth and status (often from the town or city). I see this song as an attempt by Kavanaugh to write a traditional Irish love song, which explains a lot about the "mysteries" some people see in the words. Some of it is about rhyme and meter, some of it is fairly stock phrasing from the tradition, to be sure. As to the ending, I've always thought it was reference to the dangers of putting one's beloved on a pedastal, and of being enamoured of the illusion of romantic love, rather than actually loving the real human being. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST Date: 27 Aug 01 - 01:05 AM Spot on Ard, Kavanagh's 'Tarry Flynn' gives a very good insight into his own character. Not only did he fall for the Dublin girl but he abandoned his normal caution and timidity with women knowing he would inevitably make a fool of himself but unable to resist her earthy charm. Luke Kelly's version must be the definitive one if only because of Kelly's gut-wrenching style. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,phylophisationer Date: 27 Aug 01 - 01:47 AM Whoa, I thought I was posting an item to a basically dead web page to be visted on rare occassion by internet stragglers like myself. I'll go read up on Mudcat eitquette ~after~ briefly mentioning two pertinent quotes I stumbled upon. "A poem should not mean but be." Archie Macleish 1926 And if Mr. K. is having a chuckle, here's a tweak to raise the Irish in him: "He who loves the more, is inferior and must suffer. . . ." Thomas Mann 1903 Silly of me to not have mentioned Luke Kelly. In my mind I regarded him as the baseline from which to compare the others. Thanks again, though. What to many of you is "fairly stock phrasing from the tradition" can be lost upon others, causing unnecessary misunderstanding. I'm sure I enjoy the song even more now. (It can now even bring a tear to my cold blue eye.)
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: AliUK Date: 27 Aug 01 - 02:14 AM With songs such as Raglan Road I think it's justified to try and tease out the metaphors within the narrative to better understand the author's intentions. Then to find some kind of baseline connection with our own emotions to bring out the feeling within a song. Though Kavanagh was embittered he found his writing to be an outlet for the beauty that was hidden beneath his defensive exterior. With more traditional material where it is difficult to find an author's intentions ( sometimes of various authors down the years) we have to look inwards and interpret the songs on a purely personal level. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Jack the Sailor Date: 27 Aug 01 - 11:00 AM In my opinion. To sing or interpret a song or piece of poetry. You do have to feel and impart the emotions of your interpretation. But you do not have to know what the author intended. Having said that, I have truly enjoyed this thread and I have learned much. Thanks to everyone. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Peter T. Date: 27 Aug 01 - 11:32 AM Re: angels in the song. It is interesting that one of the poetic shifts in the 19-20 century has been from envying angels their heavenly role towards pitying them that they do not have earthly experience. The film Wings of Desire works on this theme: the importance of losing your wings, the positiveness of being a fallen angel, etc. This is part of the long trend towards turning one's back on "eternal heaven" and the positive reassessment of ordinary life that characterizes modernity. The song is in this territory: clay, losing wings, etc. It is not clear that losing wings a good thing or a bad. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,Rag Date: 30 Aug 01 - 07:58 AM Has anyone seen Peter Kavanagh's (Paddy's brother) comments on this poem. He thinks it was written when he was dumped by his girlfriend. It was first published in the Irish Times, I think, and according to Peter Kavanagh, had no great political meaning at all.
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Aidan Crossey Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:39 AM A bit late in the day, here's my tuppence worth. I can only echo ard mhacha's comments regarding the Green Fool and Tarry Flynn. Anybody who's ever sang Raglan Road and felt moved by it in any way ought to check out his two prose works. Along with The Poor Mouth and The Third Policeman by Flann O'Brien, they stand head and shoulders above any other works of prose that were being published in Ireland at the time, the only contemporaries being vaguely in the same league as them being Joyce, Beckett, O'Casey and Behan. Sinead O'Connor sings a great version of Raglan Road. But my mate Dermot Maguire – piper, singer and guitarist, who has a summer-long residency in The Annexe Inn in Keel, Achill Island, Co. Mayo only a few days left, hurry, hurrry, hurry – renders the song better than anyone I've ever heard. (For that man's voice I would slaughter the innocents!) I can see how people interpret the last verse as implying that Kavanagh has inflated, pompous opinions of himself. But this, to me, is a flawed reading (and out of kilter with the rest of the poem in any event). Anyone reading Tarry Flynn or The Green Fool will be struck by just how hard Kavanagh was on himself! Calling your autobiography "The Green Fool" is not the actions of a bombast … I've always read the lines as pointing to the fact that when we're in love we feel exhilarated, uplifted, immortal. But we love only mortals like ourselves – as capable as we are of ballsing up. And when he/she/I/we cause(s) the relationship (or potential or imaginary relationship as may have been the case in this poem) to go wrong, we suddenly lose that heightened sense and become "clay" again. As I say, just my tuppence worth. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: black walnut Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:29 PM Worth much more than a tuppence, M. ~b.w. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: black walnut Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM I meant, D. (Don't know where the M. came from....) ~b.w. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Paddy Plastique Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:45 PM Anyone interested in Kavanagh autobiography might try the most succinct expression of it: 'If Ever You Go To Dublin Town'. He sings it himself on a tape available from Claddagh (I think) I picture the song in the same area of Dublin mentioned by Frank (McGrath) above. Puts some flesh on the bones of the 'grumpy old git' Bear in mind, too, that he disowned 'The Green Fool' later in his life Anyone any comments on the relation to or possible resonance with the song in Irish? I find the version I tracked down banal by comparison with Kavanagh - a lad gets brushed off by a milkmaid in the dawn. Apart from the beauty of the title's imagery it has nothing that prefigures Kavanagh's take or even lives up to the melody |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Jim the Bart Date: 30 Aug 01 - 06:18 PM Since you asked (or even if you didn't) here is my take on this beautiful bit of poesy. The writer is looking back (all of the verses, except the last, are in the past tense) on a failed relationship, and a failed life, wondering about the connection between the two. He examines the phases of the relationship and decides (in the last verse) that he has paid some kind of ultimate price for "loving not too wisely, but too well". In verse one, he returns to the start: to Raglan Road on an autumn day. He remembers that he liked her hair. As he recalls, he "saw the danger" in pursuing her but decided to take the chance and give in to the possibility of love (the enchanted way). He maintains that he knew from the start (the dawning of the day) that this love had consequences and decided to pay no more attention to them than you would to the falling of a leaf in autumn. He remembers that for the first few months they flirted with real love, and although they came close enough to see how beautiful it would be, they never quite fell; they merely "tripped lightly along the ledge. Her life went on unchanged (the job of "The Queen of (his) Hearts", after all, was tart making), while his love deepened. His life stopped in it's tracks, along with his work. He sees this imbalance in commitment as leading to the failure in this relationship and as the source of his sorrow and dissapointment in life. In v.3 he remembers that he did his best to make it work. He offered her all the things that mattered most to him - his mind, his art, his music, his poetry - and got in return little more than her name and hairdo (it's what attracted him to begin with). She was as insubstantial as "clouds over fields of May". Now, in his minds eye (where old ghosts meet), he sees her dumping him and taking off as fast as she could. He begins to think that the soulmate that he had imagined was, in reality, too shallow for him (a creature made of clay). And, as in the old stories of Gods and angels who pay with their immortality the price for loving a mere mortal, he has paid the price for his love. We are left to imagine what that price is. Personally, I see this song as a bittersweet warning to all artists who face the choice between pursuing their art and pursuing a relationship; but that's just me. Still, if we had kept the band together, and if not for the kids. . . |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 30 Aug 01 - 07:48 PM Derrymacash... I think you hit it right on. The angel is the embodiment of love in the lovers. The clay is the human earthly element that both must contend with, eventually... even when we wish it wouldn't apply. I see his 'not making hay' as one of the crucial lines. Essentially, it means to me that he spent all his energy TRYING TO WOO, instead of being industrious and laying the foundations for a prosperous family life... Loving too much... AND NOT MAKING MONEY. She can't face him, because she sees his attraction to her as a death wish in himself, a force so strong that he could simply give up his responsibilities for... and she probably didn't get into starvation and drinking the way he did... I love this song! ttr |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:38 PM And as Andy Stewart says about one of his sad love songs from the male perspective "her version is a bit more ecstatic"! |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: ard mhacha Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:57 AM Thomas, I think Kavanagh was saying "Dam this for a lark, i`d be better off at home in my Monaghan Farm, making hay". And as for the "Queen of Hearts making tarts" that could well have been his mother. He after all was a down to earth small Farmer. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Gloredhel Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:02 PM This is definitely some of the best verse ever set to music. Some songs have pretty lyrics which are terrible as poetry, but this is genuine genius and derserves the kind of analysis it's being given here. "The Queen of Hearts still making tarts" has always been one of my favorite lines from any song, mostly because it has meanings on so many levels. It does have that innocent, childlike connotation from the nursery rhyme, and also possibly the idea of prostitution, her being the "queen of his heart", and if the bakery girl story is true, there's another meaning. I beg you to remember, though, that poets often don't recognize the meaning of everything they say. A friend of mine is a decent poet, and sometimes I've known meanings of his phrases to be suggested to him which he didn't even notice until they were pointed out. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,mg Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:05 PM we sang it by committee at Camp Alexandra in B.C. this summer..Jill King and Sharon from San Francisco and me...it was a great rendition if I say so myself...Sharon has a pretty, high voice, and Jill King is in a league all of her own...a huge, deep voice..She is from New Zealand...mg |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,Jenny Date: 01 Sep 01 - 01:03 PM A couple days late - Bartholomew you are a genius. Everyone has offered up so much in this thread I couldn't help but comment on how enlightening it has been. Anyone ever read "The Riders" (Winton)? His take on Raglan Road seems to match Bartholomew's.
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Subject: Lyr Add: SHANCODUFF (Kavanagh) From: GUEST, phylophisationer Date: 03 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM Ouch. My copy of The Green Fool is still on order (and I'm beginning to fear it may be too depressing to read.) In the meantime, I went looking for Kavanagh poems to read. For those of you (us) who knew On Raglan Road as an isolated object, separated from the man or the environment, and pondered the writer's possible conceits, read this and weep: SHANCODUFF My black hills have never seen the sun rising, Eternally they look north towards Armagh. Lot's wife would not be salt if she had been Incurious as my black hills that are happy When dawn whitens Glassdrummond chapel. My hills hoard the bright shillings of March While the sun searches in every pocket. They are my Alps and I have climbed the Matterhorn With a sheaf of hay for three perishing calves In the field under the Big Forth of Rocksavage. The sleety winds fondle the rushy beards of Shancoduff While the cattle-drovers sheltering in the Featherna Bush Look up and say: "Who owns them hungry hills That the water-hen and snipe must have forsaken? A poet? Then by heavens he must be poor." I hear and is my heart not badly shaken? ---------------------------------------------- "O the rich beauty of the weeds in the ditches. . . . " -P. Kavanagh "Tarry Flynn" Line Breaks |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: ard mhacha Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:44 AM Guest, It reads beautiful whatever way you put it. The district Patrick Kavanagh came from is a lovely part of Monaghan, I have been to it on many occasions, the Poet is always allowed licence. And you will find The Green Fool an excellent read, it has all of life in its pages. Don`t forget Tarry Flynn, regarded by many as a better book. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: HOW COULD REAVY DIE! (Father Michael) From: Aidan Crossey Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:26 AM And those who are charmed by Kavanagh's might also wish to purchase a collection of Ed Reavey's tunes. Reavey was born in Cavan (I think ... don't hold me to it ... it was that general direction anyhow) and his tunes are very evocative of the area. Here's a link to just one page which gives further details about buying his tunes in musical notation and recorded format. As a taster here is Father Michael's eulogy ...
HOW COULD REAVY DIE!
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: ard mhacha Date: 03 Sep 01 - 05:54 AM For a tour of the Patrick Kavanagh country and a summary of his work, http://swift.kerna.com Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Peter T. Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:50 AM Since this seems to be a discussion thread, let me put in my counter-appraisal, that the weakest line in the song seems to be "The Queen of Hearts still making tarts", and it is interesting that in the second poem, the most wishy washy Dylan Thomasy derived line "Lot's wife would not be salt if she had been incurious, etc." is subject to the same criticism: taking a well known image and doing the most obvious rephrasing. "Does the name Dick Whittington ring any bells?" Poetry should be made of sterner stuff....Nice song, can't complain too much. I go for the prostitutes-down-in-the-ravine-shagging-off-whoever-shows- up-condoms-littered-around-as-love's-pledge interpretation myself.... yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST Date: 03 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM It's very true, Peter T. I was avoiding that observation because I was talking too much as an interloper on the list. The Queen of Hearts line was like a large grain of sand I had to choke down to enjoy the rest of an otherwise fine meal. I was so pleased when someone put some possible meaning into it, up above, allowing it to go down more easily. I frequently wondered how a singer should approach that line: Should they belt it out with triumphant grandiosity, and then, should the audience respond with thunderous applause at the cartoon queen's industry? For what it's worth, I had done my own phylophising (God, I love that word--someone should send it in to Miriam-Webster), to make it palatable: I thought that perhaps the line referenced the ongoing process of successful romantic liasons occurring all around the artist, while he was spinning his wheels, or perhaps that the assembly line was churning out all sorts of more appropriate choices for him, of which he failed to avail himself. I admitted at the outset that I have no education in poetry, and so I have wondered what the cognoscenti say about the technique of which you complain. It can be an annoyance to be sure. Believe it or not, while I have found the analyzing and phylophising of this particular song rewarding in that I can now "own" the song in my mind (too bad I can't sing!), it's a process to which I usually won't dedicate much energy. I'm getting some extra benefits here by stealing some (maybe too many)insights into van morrison's lyrics (take me back to when I lived in Grace; I will never grow so old again); and he loves the technique. Dan (Who once loved a precious dark haired girl from Monaghan, though I've never been there.) |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:56 PM HEY Jenny, I finnished "The Riders" about a month ago... I found it so compelling that I didn't even go to work the day after I started it, but just read it through that whole day and completed it in it's wee hours. The book spoke to me, and because I had already been singing the "Raglan Road", it said even more than I could ever convey here... Ouch, what an experience! And to think I have lived it too... I mentioned the song in a couple of threads, and they could have caused this one to have been revitalised... who knows? So, Jenny? did you like it too? I would love to hear a woman's perspective on the impact "The Riders" would have on Her...ttr |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST, Dan Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM Mr. Ard: On amazon, ebay, and half.com, I can only find ONE copy of Tarry Flynn, for U.S.$75.00 (original list price 12.50.) You may have an investment in your attic... |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: ard mhacha Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:45 PM Dan, I bought this paperback copy of Tarry Flynn in 1975 for 75p . I have seen the two books on sale here [Ireland] for around £10.00. At that price Amazon must have Tarry Flynn in Kavanagh`s original handwriting. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: ard mhacha Date: 03 Sep 01 - 05:12 PM Dan, I bought this paperback copy of Tarry Flynn in 1975 for 75p . I have seen the two books on sale here [Ireland] for around £10.00. At that price Amazon must have Tarry Flynn in Kavanagh`s original handwriting. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM Well Homer nods sometimes, they say (and that's not a Simpsons reference.) And I think so did Peter T. just then. Which I suppose is a over ornate way of saying that I disagree with him. But implying that we don't need to square off in assault and defence, in the Mudcat fighting mode. Which wouldn't be fitting in a thread like this.
And thanks, derrymacash for putting into words the thought about that last verse that had been hovering around and I couldn't pin down. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Aidan Crossey Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:09 PM McGrath ... you're welcome. Only a thought, mind. But being a curmudgeonly Ultonian bollix much like himself, I'm unlikely to see much bad in him! |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Aidan Crossey Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:11 AM I wonder if Kavanagh had subtitled the poem "Ode to a love affair that never happened" if it would be easier for people to understand. That the hint of bitterness in the poem is directed not at the dark-haired enchantress, but at himself for wasting so much time worshipping from afar and yet imagining himself involved in some relationship which never got off the ground? (The archetypal teenage crush experienced in later life by a man who - as I understand it - was unfulfilled in the romantic/sexual aspect of his life.) Regarding the "Queen of Hearts" line. I think this line is difficult to dismiss out of hand. It is undoubtedly more clumsy than many in the poem where Kavanagh's language is exquisitely economical. As I read it he wanted to make a point about his "still making hay" and needed a point of comparison. The "Queen of Hearts still making tarts" is a metaphor for his object of desire idly carrying on as normal (i.e. ignoring (or being unaware of ) his ardour) while he is "still making hay" - industriously (albeit possibly secretly and - tragically - ultimately futilely) pursuing her. So whilst I would agree that the line jars a little, I find the contrast startling and it's one of the "hinges" of the poem - a dawning of self-awareness and the key that moves him towards the cataclysmic realisation that there is nothing between them. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST, Dan Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:54 PM No, I'm not trying to revive this thread. Just a short thank you to all of you while commemorating its re-internment. I've also reviewed a number of academic musings on the poem at various university websites, but nothing has been nearly as enlightening as your collective wisdom. Thanks, more than I can convey, for your patience and efforts. I'll go back to lurking and surfing, until I feel compelled to start quoting Tarry Flynn (you poor buggers)(or I may need to lavish uncontrolled praise for Alison Krauss' performance October 26.) Dan |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Aidan Crossey Date: 06 Sep 01 - 03:48 AM Why not refresh it! As you've probably guessed, there are those of us who like nothing better than to have an oul' gaunch about Monaghan men, lachakoes from Cavan, dealin' men from Crossmaglen, etc! |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:36 AM "I still making hay"?? derrymacash
I've always heard it and sung it as "not making hay". Implying maybe that he's not getting on with things he ought to be getting on with. Which could either be wrtiting poems or the business of daily life, or maybe trying to get somewhere with the lady instead of thinking about it. Or maybe that he is in the city and he's really a countryman. Or all of them.
Or perhaps it is "still" after all. Or he used both words on different occasions, the way one might.
And the Queen of Hearts part of it also lends itself to multiple interpretations.
I can't see how a line which incorporates all those meanings can be described as anything but extremely economical. The only way I can see how that line can be desrcribed as clumsy is if internal rhymes ("Hearts/ tarts) are seen as unacceptable - and if that's so, much of the Irish tradition is out the window. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Aidan Crossey Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:29 AM Well, ride me sideways! Here's one the songs/poems that you think you know by heart until pulled up short. Yep ...I've misremembered it. (And therefore mis-sung it for years.) Happily, although it alters the meaning of the line in the way you describe it doesn't alter the general thrust of the whole piece! (And works in its own way ...) (Unlike the singer I heard once who sang "... tripped lightly ACROSS the ledge ...") But I stand corrected and will mutter to myself for the next hour and half "NOT! NOT! NOT! ..." Go raibh míle ... |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: black walnut Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:33 AM "Not making hay"...because he can't. Because he's a spirit. ~b.w. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 01 - 01:11 PM Well, McGrath, thanks for the clarification of your criticism of my criticism. Always good. Makes me think -- as was said by someone else above -- about why the line jars. I think it is because it is in a different "register" of gesture towards meaning. To compare with someone later, Bob Dylan, Dylan has all these songs which have references to Romeo and Juliet, St. Francis, Popeye, whatever, in the same song, so the "register" of referred meaning remains the same, and a line reference like this one doesn't stand out. This is the only line in Raglan Road to me that seems to be from a different kind of poem than the others. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,philcave Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM Having recently heard Joan Osborne's version of the song, I have become somewhat infatuated with it and take every opportunity to sing it, so I don't forget the elusive melody which is quite haunting. I think that the veiled, metaphorical quality of the lyrics makes it all the more intriguing, so maybe we shouldn't be looking too deeply for their meaning? |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:24 PM Peter T - my query was with what I took as an implication that the line about the Queen of Hearts was not economical.
As for the jarring, if there is that, which in a way there is, I think I'd argue it's justified because it seems to imply a down-to-earth quality about the woman, which points forward to the last line, where the angel does indeed get brought down to earth.
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,JTT Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:33 PM I suppose we could start off in a whole new direction by quoting (with phonetics for examination of the rhyme-scheme) and translating the song that every Irish schoolchild of Kavanagh's generation learned, which is the original of the tune, Fáinne Gheal an Lae (Bright Dawning of the Day), an aisling, as far as I remember. Of course Kavanagh was a great man for the spéirmná. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Peter T. Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:43 PM Just to point out that it wasn't me that brought in the remark about "economical"! I find it hard to imagine an ordinary listener (not knowing about bakers or whatever) considering a reference to the Queen of Hearts as being down to earth, rather the opposite -- a fantasy figure if anything. Just to throw a sexist grenade into this, I have heard only 3 of the versions -- Joan Osborne, Sinead, and the Dubliners guy -- and while the ladies sang it more interestingly than the Dubliners guy, his seemed to me to be the most authentic because it is such a male song. I don't usually genderize songs, but this seems to me so full of male longing and illusion and arrogance that the women don't seem to me to be even close to its spirit (now runs for cover). yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: ard mhacha Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:32 AM Peter T, A wee bit of bloody respest for the late, great, folk singer Luke Kelly, his version was sung with great feeling. Some other guy further up this long thread referred to Van Morrison`s "singing" of the song as the best rendering, words fail me, this man shouldn`t be let within miles of a folk song, let him take his sore throat singing elsewhere. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 01 - 05:34 PM But it probably got people listen to the song who otherwise wouldn't. Though it wasn't a patch on Luke Kelly, I grant you that.
I don't think there's anything exclusively male in the attitudes involved. "Male longing and illusion and arrogance" aren't necessarily that different from female longing and illusion and arrogance. Obviously its sung from the point of view of the rejected poet, and the singers got to be standing in those shoes, but if you changed the "hers" to "hims" and so forth, it could just as well have been a rejected woman poet telling the story, and it wouldn't be that different. (Well, even without changing the hers to hims for that matter...) |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Peter T. Date: 30 Sep 01 - 11:43 AM Yeah, sorry about the Luke Kelly remark, I did like his the best, but I am interested you said that it was sung with great feeling -- didn't translate over the sound waves to me, it seemed to me to be all in the same tone. I sure agree on the Van Morrison one -- truly truly horrible, that fake let's make this verse real quiet and all that, pinched voice. (And I am a VM fan). Could it be sung in the persona of a rejected woman poet, I wonder. Do they go about generating Galatea fantasies? I haven't known or read one who did. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:11 PM Well it's not uncommon for women to put men on pedestals, or have fantasies about changing them into something they are not going to be changed into. |
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