BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: JennyO
Date: 23 May 03 - 01:53 PM

Kim C, here is a place that makes square pies! click

Click on "Home Page" to get a better view.

Yay, My first blue clicky!

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 May 03 - 02:41 PM

KimC,

Mr. Nash was one, Mr. Guest, too. I'll have to think a bit to remember the others. I often regret that there seems to be no place for them in the contemporary Literature. I think that I would have enjoyed your little opus even more if I'd discovered it in a magazine somewhere and been able to attached it to my refrigerator or the old cork bulletin board in my office for idlers to read. I suppose I could print it out, but a printout just isn't the same as a clipping, and everyone seems in such a hurry these days that they wouldn't read it anyway.
Presumably, Mr. Stribling was a humorous writer--on your advice, I'll look him up, he sounds great.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 May 03 - 03:07 PM

Mr. Stribling's autobiography is humorous - I haven't read his other books but I assume they are probably written the same way. And knowing my friend Howard - who actually wrote the introduction to said autobiography, and recommended this book to me - I'm sure they are all worth reading. After all, Stribling did win a Pulitzer Prize once upon a time. But he was around in the days before Oprah, so he never got chosen for the book club.

Now Ted, if it's a nice printout you want, PM me with your e-mail and I'll send you a real document of it, complete with a little picture of pie. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 23 May 03 - 04:54 PM

Maybe I wasn't clear. What I meant was that when writing fulfils the function it sets out to fulfil, it's good.

I was listening to Stackalee tonight, for instance, and thought the writing in it was fabulous: Stackalee is described goign to the bar and pulling out his .44, and saying: "Nobody move". Then Billy says "Stackalee please don't shoot me, please don't take my life - I've got two little children and a very sickly wife."

Then Stackalee shoots him - "He shot that boy so bad" - that the bullet goes through him and breaks the bartender's glass.

Now, that's good writing: vivid, direct, emotionally engaging. It fulfils its function.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 May 03 - 05:32 PM

But define "fulfilling the function." When I read Anne Rice's "Blackwood Farm" at the suggestion of a friend, I didn't believe this novel fulfilled its function. I thought it was preposterous, ludicrous, and above all else, poorly written. There was enough to keep me entertained, yes, and I read the whole thing because I wanted to know what happened next. However, I was pretty disgusted with the whole thing by the time I was finished. I didn't gain one thing from it, and it cost me $30 to boot.

And then..... and then there's The Black Flower. I loved this book so much I wrote a song about it. Then I read it three more times. I will probably read it again, although now I am a little bit biased because the author is a personal friend. But I didn't know him the first two times I read the book, or when I read his second novel, The Year of Jubilo. Both are fantastically written and - unless you are completely devoid of any human emotion whatsoever - guaranteed to suck you in. Just read 'em.

I just finished Susan Isaacs' "After All These Years" and enjoyed that very much.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 May 03 - 06:39 PM

Kim, you said, But define "fulfilling the function." When I read Anne Rice's "Blackwood Farm" at the suggestion of a friend, I didn't believe this novel fulfilled its function. I thought it was
preposterous, ludicrous, and above all else, poorly written.

Okay, you said it. NOT good writing, then. It told its story, presumably, but, being poorly written, as you say, the poor writing got in the way of the story, so that it didn't achieve its purpose with you.

I'll buy JTT's description of "good writing". GREAT writing requires that, plus having an outstanding vision of some kind to communicate, and then it needs adequately good writing to communicate that vision.

Of course we won't all agree what vision or message we would call great. Seems to me that a great vision can even result in a great book when the standard of writing is (relatively) low, so that the FULL potential impact of that communication is not achieved. And thus we have various levels or degrees of greatness in both the underlying vision and in the communication of it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 May 03 - 04:59 AM

Fulfilling the function: well, depends on what its function is. Finnegans Wake fulfils its function of playing with language to the nth degree. Stackalee fulfils its function of telling the story with utter realism.

For me, good writing in a news story tells you who, what, when, where and how in the first paragraph and goes on to expand those facts. A news feature adds 'why' to those. And good journalistic writing (a rare thing indeed) is direct, un-cliched and grammatical.

Good writing in popular fiction is journalistic writing to tell a story.

Good writing in literary fiction delves deeper, but still tells the story. Literary writers have a tendency to become hypnotised by the beauty of their own language. I've just bought Autumn of a Patriarch by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and found flashes of great storytelling and linguistic beauty, but mostly play which wasn't too appealing to me. On the other hand, One Hundred Years of Solitude kept me reading all along, with the twists and turns and play.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 May 03 - 03:22 PM

At least according to himself, JJ wrote "Finegan's Wake" with the intent to confound those who had a mind to interpret and analyze his work--

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 24 May 03 - 06:04 PM

Sure, I know the thread is about good writing, but I enjoy that greatness and pie came up along the way.

And I don't mean to disagree with a utilitarian view, I just don't think it's much fun. It's quite like saying that something is successful because it succeded. That the fittest survive because--look, these things survived, so they are therefore the "fittest" to survive. I prefer to speculate that maybe fitter things are smacked down by chance and mishap, and that great art is often appreciated for reasons accidental to it's intentions, or "functions", if you like. To me it's an explanation that fails because it can't be wrong. It's like walking a tightrope flat on the floor--there's nowhere to fall.

   I like the bits and lines and examples--they don't really explain it either, but it's fun to hear what particularly strikes people, and feels like a fuller explanation, even if it doesn't really explain.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 03 - 06:56 PM

Now, that's good writing: vivid, direct, emotionally engaging. It fulfils its function.

There are some fine example which meet that criteria, right here at Mudcat. Here are two threads which come to mind:

The Drinking Gourd

Tavern Steamboatin' The Albert Hansell

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 24 May 03 - 07:16 PM

Rick asked about the greatness of Moby Dick in the intro-post, and I can't answer that one. It's not in my personal pantheon. But I do wonder how Stub kept his pipe lit out in that spray.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: mutineer
Date: 25 May 03 - 03:33 PM

I think it is just being able to hang on to the writer's attention. this said, I don't think any one writer could be considered a good writer by anyone- only those interested in the topic he/she is writing about...

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 25 May 03 - 04:50 PM

Okay like if you wanta defind good wriging I think the eesiest way is to like see some egzamples of ree4ly BAD wriging first sorta liek this...

"It was a darke and stormy night in Blind River. You coudlnt see for shit outside. But I needed a beer bad eh? So I like put on my lumberjacket (thats like a jacket that a laumberjack wears eh?) and I steeped outside. It wass pissing rain like a drunk in a snowstorm. I seen lightnging cross the sky and swore. There wasn't no one in the street escept for me and I hadnt had a drink in four hours. I couild taste yeesterdays pisza on my breath, mixed with the dregs of stale beer and roaches. Ive smelled dogs that had better breath than me after a long weekend. Maybe that was why the chicks had been scarce lately. I swiore again but it didn't help. I pulled my collar in tight and headed for the Iron Horse. I didn't have no cash except for a copulle of loonies but I figured that I could sweettalk the wiatriesses at the HOrse inta givin me a beer or two on credit. Them girls worship me eh? I am a flippin legned in this town."

Pretty good start eh? NOwq that is BAD writing. I expect to become rich and famous soon with this sort of stuff becaouse if I may be frank about it people in North ONtario ain't interested in good writing and they don't buy it. They buy crap. I have a gift for turnin out crap and its gonna make me rich. Then I will marry Shania Twain. That will be very cool.

- BDiBR

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 25 May 03 - 04:59 PM

Shit. Screwed up the code. Oh well it looks good eh? I am knowen as a bold guy anyway.

- BDiBR

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 26 May 03 - 10:23 AM

Geez. I gess that said it all eh? Descent! i am planely headed for success as a wreiter of crap cos everhyone else just steps back in awe after tehy read my stuff. Hey thanks for fixin the bold code for me! I woudnt of knowed how to myself eh?

- BDiBR

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 26 May 03 - 04:45 PM

I think you'll have to do worse than that.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 May 03 - 05:35 PM

Doing my best to do worse...**BG**

It was a dark and stormy night in Blind River when a blind drunk came stumbling after me, stinking of cigs and gin gone bad. My dogs were crying out for soft slippers and a hot soak after slinging hash all night, so I ignored him and walked on against the rain. He stumbled after me until I turned around and yelled, "Leave me alone!" He flapped his arms at me. "What the hell do you want?" I asked. Then it hit me, he was a blind, drunk mime in Blind River on a dark and stormy night.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 May 03 - 05:37 PM

Oops, I did mean that as a response to BDinBR, but also the 100 word story, meant to post it there. Sorry..

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 03 - 06:18 PM

Turning to music and songs often seems to make it easier to unravel ideas about this kind of thing for me.

That's a great guitar.

That's great guitar playing.

That's a great tune.

That's a great song.

That's a great rendering of the song.

That's a great line.

It doesn't need all of those things to make what you listen to memorable.

Writing is communication, and sometimes that primarily means communicating with some kind of vision, and some times it primarily means communicating with a person. There are people so well worth communicating with, and visions so well worth sharing, that you can put up with all kinds of difficulties. And on the other hand, a really clear phone line isn't much use, if the person at the other end hasn't got anything to say that is worth listening to.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 03 - 11:28 PM

Give him time, Fred. I'm sure he can do worse than that. Nice work there, Kat. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 May 03 - 11:36 PM

Thank yew, LH!

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 27 May 03 - 06:05 PM

Good attempt, but still not very bad. I had to review a couple of books of stories once that were so bad I seriously began to wonder if they weren't artistically contrived to be awful. It really rattled me. To find anything to say about them was a nightmare. It was really a deeper experience, philosophically, than I've had with most good books.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 03 - 06:23 PM

Most people at Joyce-Aylwin & Company didn't like Vance Aylwin very much, but they did envy him. Jennifer had heard him described once as "brutally handsome", and it fit. From the slightly cruel jawline to the steely blue eyes that seemed to peel a woman's clothes off with a glance, he was a certified Beverly Hills stud, and he knew it. And he was rich. More than rich in fact. He oozed money from every pore. You could see it in the tailored suits, the Italian shoes, and the one-of-a-kind silk neckties. Vance Aylwin was filthy rich.

What really burned Jennifer's cookies was she was obscurely attracted to the man for some reason. Was it his arrogance? Was it his corporate power? Was it just his looks? Or was it something less obvious, some mysterious inner quality that didn't show on the surface, but still tickled Jennifer's feminine intuition and kept her awake far too late at night?

It would bear looking into, she thought, examining her cuticles for the nineteenth time and checking her lip gloss in the mirror for good measure. She had a meeting scheduled with Vance Aylwin for 6 O'Clock at the Coocoo Bird Lounge, and she intended to make the most of it...

*** There. How's that for really lousy writing?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 28 May 03 - 09:11 AM

Oh, LH, I was beginning to wonder why you were telling us this. Bad writing, okay.

   Sounds like Judith Krantz? who I also once reviewed.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 May 03 - 09:36 AM

Clearly time for a new thread. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 May 03 - 09:36 AM

Just read the last Anne Rice novel if you want a great example of bad writing.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:23 PM

And like BDiBR says "it sells"!!! Sickening, isn't it? It's sort of like bad political leadership, it's ubiquitous.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:14 PM

Actually, LH, I think you may have a future in Harlequin romance novels... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:11 PM

Ha! Ha! Ha! God, that would be awful...but it could be okay if one developed a good enough sense of humor about it, I suppose. In fact, it could be a lot of fun that way... Hmmmm....

- LH