BS: What does patriotism mean to you?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: freda underhill
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:45 AM

It's late, and I'm very tired. I've been writing a submission about some dangerous things our government did, motivated by patriotism.

but, here are some good quotes about such negative aspects of patriotism...

George Jean Nathan:
Patriotism is a arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.

Goethe:
Patriotism ruins history.

Hermann Goering:
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. quote verified at snopes.com

Howard Thurman:
During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.

'night all

freda

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:09 AM

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"

by John Lennon


..... biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:11 PM

Right on, John.

Ever notice that on futuristic science fiction shows an inhabited planet is usually depicted as a single, united culture? That's because that is the intelligent thing to accomplish eventually on any planet if its people are going to grow up enough as a culture to be worthy of journeying to other worlds.

And if there are many such worlds (as I think there may well be) then the ultimate accomplishment would be to unite them all in a friendly association.

But first we have to do that here.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:30 PM

A recognition, based on plenty of evidence, that nations are, for the time being, necessary evils, and mine is, for the time being, among the most necessary & least evil.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

why are they necessary?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:47 PM

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"

by John Lennon


                      Imagine there's no heaven,
                      Above us only sky...

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:48 AM

Nations are not necessary...but they are habitual. They arise out of people's tendency to focus on differences and similarities and then divide up accordingly into groups. People are curious about those who are different, but they're also usually scared of them to a certain extent.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Bored in July
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:07 AM

Interesting thread. As I read through it, the one thought that leaps out of my heat dulled, slow moving mind is that our chauvinism runs deep, whether it is for nation, place, culture/community (ie people), race, or religion.

The only thing that seems to run deeper is the impulse to rationalize one's own chauvinism as acceptable, and the chauvinism of "those people" (whomever they are to the specific individual) as unacceptable.

I don't believe it is 'human nature' to be chauvinist and bigoted. I believe it is learned behavior, like which way to wear one's hair or the manner of dress is learned behavior. It can be unlearned.

However, there is an interesting article in today's Chicago Tribune about this very subject. Titled "Why is the flag so important?", the link is below (I apologize for not knowing how to provide clickable links in this forum, but I'm a very infrequent visitor):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-oped0709flagjul09,0,5401676.story

It talks about the myths that drive nationalist sentiments, and how they are exploited by partisan politicians to drive voters their way. Quite an interesting article.

As to what patriotism means to me?

Nothing. Not a damn thing. That puts me in the distinct minority here, apparently. It puts me in the minority among the general public too.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

Would one say patriotism is fanatism to one's country/government and is it about as dangerous as let's say, religeous fanatism? I would have say it is.

Good article Bored in July ... thanks for sharing it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Bored in July
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

I like the article because it explains in a nutshell why Obama will win in November. He took a page from the Reagan Republican patriotic myth rule book, and made his life story conform to the "American Dream" myth.

This is why people who disagree vehemently with his "stands on the issues" (a voter myth?) will vote for him--the feel good factor.

His policy positions are very close to the Republican's policy positions, yet the Obama Democrats are absolutely blind to these facts of his candidacy.

This article explains why that can be, when it is the Democrats who, in recent decades, have painted themselves the "rational facts" party (and lost), and the Republicans have wrapped themselves in patriotic myths (and won). It is the patriotic myth feel good factor, which will trump the facts every single time.

Tables are turned between the parties this time, but it is still the same damn dangerous game, because the only thing it is effective for is getting elected. And truly, any well financed charlatan or snake oil salesman can cook up an effective biography rooted in patriotic myths. Which is why we tend to elect idiots instead of effective leaders in the US.

The only other Democrats in post-WWII America who were able to do this very effectively were Kennedy and Clinton. Obama's "American Dream" mythic biography has matched their (and Reagan's) mythic biographies nearly note for note. One would think Hilary could have done much better on this, considering who her husband is. But then, she wasn't born in "Hope" Arkansas.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:08 PM

Just to point out that JFK was a singularly ineffectual president. While he did outbluff Kruschev re. the Cuban Missile Crisis, he was also responsible for gwttung the US actively involved in Vietnam. His succesful programs were the ones executed by LBJ, after Kennedy was shot.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:18 PM

It means Nationalism that is primarily used and abused for purposes of the ruling class.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

The sentiment of patriotism is essentially local or regional. As Yeats wrote "My country is Kiltartan Cross, My countrymen Kiltartan's poor..."

When nations are small enough, like many European nations, it can appropriate enough to use the term in relation to whole nations.

But when it come to vast political entities or empires, stretching across whole continents, some other term seems needed, because its not the same thing at all.

"Marriage" means something different when it involves multiple partners.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 04:38 PM

"It is the patriotic myth feel good factor, which will trump the facts every single time."

Absolutely. When it comes to the Democrats and the Republicans, it is always the party that can most effectively use the patriot myth feel good factor which will win the election. It is the candidate who most effectively embodies the patriotic myth feel good factor who wins.

Raw emotion and general but quite vague impressions based on raw emotion will beat out facts with not much trouble at all in an American election, because it's an emotional drama, just like the dramas you see all the time on TV shows. Emotion always drives the plot. Facts just get in the way...and they bore people.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:39 PM

If patriotism is about military warfare, then it has no useful meaning to society.

Patriotism is not just being willing to go out and shoot someone for love of country.

I think that the real patriots are the people who contribute something worthwhile to
society and country such as artists, scientists and people in the healing profession.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:08 AM

It is pretty sad that some people identify patriotism/nationalism etc with antipathy to foreigners. That does not need to be the case at all. I think it is important to start by valuing the people, who are nearest to you - as McGrath pointed out earlier. However, there is no need for it to stop there. The military can be a good test of one's commitment, because it shows that you are prepared to sacrifice your life. It does not have to be the only one by any means though - or even the first one. The firemen, who raced into the twin towers on September 11 had every bit as much commitment to their fellow citizens. If that is not loyalty I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:12 AM

definitions of patriotism ...

"love for or devotion to one's country "

"love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it"

For the firemen involved on 911 ... their country was probably the last thing on their minds that morning ... it was there commitment and devotion to their fellow human beings (citizens ??)regardless of race, nationality what compelled them to their perform duty.

Let's not get the concept of patriotism mixed up with "good outstanding people"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM

Bill, with all respect, I asked what the word means to you. I appreciate that you like to identify the word with a certain definition.

I think you are probably quite right about the firemen, who did not think about flags, symbols or whatever on the day. I also agree that they would have gone in for people of any nationality, race or group. I don't have a problem with identifying that sort of heroism -and service to the community - with a form of patriotism.

I was trying to follow up Stringsinger's point about military service not necessarily being the litmus test of patriotism. Love or devotion to one's country does not necessitate indifference to others. I should hope it would mean the opposite.

Americans have given their lives to save foreigners. Cornishmen gave their lives to try to save Irishmen from a stricken coaster. I think that is something worth being proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

Firefighters do not give their lives willingly. I know that for fact. But there are times when they come out on the short end of the odds and that's that. Structures collapse, explosions occur, toxic gases exist. They can and do sometimes end up in dangerous situations. That goes with the turf.

Training helps overcome the instinct that says, "All in all, I'd rather be in Philadelphia." And training helps keep 'em alive.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:59 AM

"Americans have given their lives to save foreigners. Cornishmen gave their lives to try to save Irishmen from a stricken coaster. I think that is something worth being proud of. "

In my opinion this is no reason to be proud of Americans, or Cornishmen, or any specific national group. Simply of the people!

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 11:24 AM

"Americans have given their lives to save foreigners'The last refuge the old"look what we've done for you" speech. Sorry that line's best before date expired a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 12:43 PM

I would think that every nationality in the world has given lives to save foreigners on some occasion or another. Altruism is not limited to specific nationalities.

As for military intervention, that is normally done for some kind of unstated economic or strategic gains...while the public is told that it's being done for some wonderfully altruistic reason.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM

L.H.: I think you may be selling the voting public a bit short. I think people vote for a candidate because they feel that person will best represent their point of view on important issues. To me, the important issues in the next USA election will be high fuel prices, dependence on other countries for oil, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, perceived problems with possible nukes in Iran, vacancies on the Supreme Court, national security, immigration reform, among others. I doubt patriotism has much to do with it.

Sorry for the thread drift Alanbit.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:05 AM

Alan,

    Many of the things that you have observed about patriotism stem from the fact that you are a unique man in a unique position. First, you are one of those rare few who is willing to understand that there is a world beyond the barrier of your front door. Second, you are an Englishman living in Germany during the early, and possibly most formative years, of the European Union. To anyone who is paying attention to what is going on about them it has to make one wonder about a few things. I'm assuming that's part of the reason that you started the thread. I'm also assuming (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that part of the question is not for the present or yourself but for what all of this might mean for your children and the generations beyond. Obviously, I don't have those answers. I do, however, have a few thoughts on what the past can teach us about what might be waiting in the wings.

A brief history lesson:
    In the years between the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War if one were to ask any given individual what country they were from they would most likely answer that they were from Georgia or Massachsetts rather than the United States. People thought of their home state as their country. It was not until after the American Civil War that something resembling a national identity started to form. It was not, however, until our entrance into the First World War (on the world stage for the first time in common cause with other nations) that we started to identify ourselves as being, first and foremost, Americans. We have done so ever since.

    That is not to say that there are not points of regional or state pride (ask any Texan), or that there are no regional rivalries (ask any Oklahoman about the Texans). As a native Chicagoan I always get a small jolt of pride whenever any Chicago sports team wins a game (we do it so seldom that any victory is a thrill).

Back to the present (such as it is):

          The EU came about in a different way than the United States and is a very different political and economic entity than the U.S. It is much like the United States was before the passage of our Constitution. The exception, of course being that, the EU members have been sovereign nations for a heck of a long time and are in a much better position to maintain that sovereignty than were the thirteen ex-colonies. It is possible if not probable that historians decades hence will see the EU as the logical next step after the Common Market.

          Patriotism, however, is not a politcal or economic phenomenon. It is social in nature. You think of yourself as English. Your girlfriend and children identify themselves as German. The generations of your grandchildren and great-grandchildren will grow up with no direct experience with the world as it was before the EU. For them it will always have been there. This cannot help but have an impact on the social fabric of each of the EU member nations individually and on the EU as a whole. How they think of themselves, what they feel they are a part of, and what sort of geographic space commands their pride will, by the very nature of their experience, be different from ours. I have no idea how it will be different or whether the change will be good or bad. I suspect that it will be good given that it will stem from one of the most useful and productive things that has ever happened in Europe – the creation of the EU.


Just a couple of random thougths for whatever they may be worth.


Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:47 AM

"This cannot help but have an impact on the social fabric of each of the EU member nations individually and on the EU as a who."

If course it does, but the EU is a vastly different entity from the US, and it was founded for economic and (I suspect) military reasons and it's attempts at social enhancement have had mixed success and are the subject of vigourous debate. Even the idea of an EU president and a written constitution have been rejected by the people and there is some very intense discussion happening now about how to carry the whole thing forward.

In Europe we've long looked past our own borders and I think alanabit's viewpoint is very much a European one. We're not insular by nature and isolationism is (thankfully) a state few European countries have ever been able to achieve. Even at the height of the cold war Europeans were deeply interested and involved in each other's affairs, and now we are reunited, gathering new members into the trading block and we are experiencing the biggest internal changes since the end of WWII.

In my opinion, patriotism for the EU will always be a non-starter - it's not what it's about. The sovereign nations have lived together in peace and war for so long these are not simply regional differences in a disparate group people from varying backgrounds all mixed up and settling a (to them) new land as the US was, but countries whose people share a common history which dates back to before the last ice age, but who have very different languages and culture.

I'm very pro-Europe, but only as an economic entity to counter the steamrollering capitalist behemoths of the US and the Asian economies (there are still socialists in Government in Europe, though none left in politics in the UK), which the member states alone could not hope to stand up to alone. I'm no more likely to wave the EU flag than the Union Flag or any other national flag come to think of it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:37 AM

Doug, I'm also wondering about the Supreme court vacancies. Obama is going to be the next president, and he owes the Clintons, so, I see Hillary on the court.

Doug, Doug!, someone get some smelling salts!

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 09:50 AM

stigweard,

Quite right. The EU is a very different sort of entity inits nature and origins from the USA. It's a good thing, too. It illustrates a lesson that many of my countrymen and, sadly, most in the US Government have yet to learn -- that the US model is not for everyone and will not work everywhere.

Stephen Lee

BTW, my bad. That was a typo and shopuld have read "the EU as a whole". Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

I come from that generation of Germans for whom "patriotism" was a bad word in contrast to the immediately preceding generation whose patriotism excluded all non-Aryans and meant looking down at other nations. We did laugh when the anthem was played, we looked the other way when the German flag was unfurled. Though we looked sports and enjoyed German wins we never waited for the winners ceremony for it was too nationalistic for our tastes. We were in no way proud of the country of our birth.

President Heinemann said it best for my generation when he was asked whether he loved Germany and replied: "I don't love countries, I love my wife."

Horkheimer also said it for us: "Patriotism in Germany is so awful, because it is so baseless (unfounded)"

An older quote:

"The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it betrays in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions. He who possesses significant personal merits will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes, most clearly. But that poor beggar who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own." (Schopenhauer)

I must say that I was completely surprised (18 years old then) when in Ireland in a pub to the last tune all people stood up. It took me a minute to guess it was the National Anthem.

Now, growing old, I somewhat hesitantly have a milder look at my own country (sixty years without a rebirth of the wrong nationalism did help here). I watch with a mixture of uneasiness, surprise and a little proudness a young generation who without embarrassment wave German flags during sport events and would say that they of course love their country and for whom patriotism isn't a bad word. But I haven't changed completely. I could say I love das Weserbergland, a region in Germany, or the lake of Constance (Bodensee) but I could never say seriously I love Germany.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 08:59 PM

By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, _not_ for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality. -- George Orwell (1945)

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 06:27 PM

For me, a true patriot would be one who loves his country and his culture, is proud of its achievements, while recognising, and objecting to its faults and excesses.

He would be one who can talk about his country without giving an impression of arrogance or superiority.

In short, he would, in his manner and deportment, reflect (as an ambassador), all that about his country which gave him reason for love, and pride.

Don T.