Origins: Rolling Down to Old Maui

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:24 AM

Yeah, but what if he invented it not ca1970 but ca1923, when he was a shantyman and a working sailor?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 01:51 PM

In the back of my mind, I wonder what the commonest pronunciation of Maui was back in the 1850s-1860s, and how the Arctic whalers who came to Lahaina would pronounce it. We all seem to accept "Mohee."

The "Lass" song, 1847 Cortes, has "Mowee"; Cook's late 18th C. map has "Mowee," and I have seen that spelling in material preserved in the archives in Honolulu. Native Hawaiians would say "Mo-wee."

Was that changed in sung versions to "Mohee" to give the word more emphasis?

Lahaina on Maui was not just a whaling destination. It was the capital of Hawai'i until the move to Honolulu in 1845, and was (and is) a center for the educational and publications efforts of the missions.

I think it more likely that the visiting whalers would hear and adopt "Mo-wee" rather than the "Mo-hee" of the old song sheets, but aboard ship chantey use in work might require more emphasis, hence "Mo-hee."

Dunno!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 02:40 PM

Q--
FWIW it's not been documented in use as a work song anywhere.
One of the American Canoe Association publications calls it a "shanty song," but I believe they were using that term generically to refer to "sailor song."

That, incidentally is interesting in itself -- that circa early 1890s someone was using "shanty" like that, even though prior publications had made a very clear distinction that shanties were work songs. A decade later, it would be less surprising.

Lighter--

If it's discovered that Hugill invented the song ca1923, I'll make an "I love Stan Hugill" t-shirt and wear it during my pilgrimage to Aberdovey, where I will get my head shaved and then circumambulate the Hugill home counterclockwise, repeating, "No sea songs but Stan's sea songs...."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:37 PM

No, it may never have been a work song- sloppy language on my part. But it would be nice to know just how the whalers would have pronounced Maui.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 12:32 PM

Assuming that all whalers pronounced it the same way.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 01:09 PM

This entire thread deserves a serious review for anyone considering a new post. It really represents some of the best work here at Mudcat Central.

And, Lighter, you should record (and copyright) the early version that you channeled.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, searching for fresh-water whales off the sea-girt shoals off Port Chicago

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 03:31 PM

Thanks, Charlie.

WARNING: I NOW ASSERT COPYRIGHT TO THE RECONSTRUCTED VERSION I POSTED IN 2007! HANDS OFF!! IT'S ALL MINE!!! JUST THINKING THE WORDS COULD COST YOU!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 05:44 PM

Lighter-

What's your going rate for leading your version at the next annual meeting of The International Association of Cetaceans?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 12:54 PM

Well, I gave it a shot. I ain't vouching for anything!
Harlow's structure, Huntington's lyrics:

Rolling Down to Old Mohee

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 11:10 PM

Gibb-

Not bad but might be even better if you had a couple of cups of grog.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 11:43 PM

Alas, Charley, I was at the CVS drug store the other day loading up my giant duffle bag full of essential items I needed for my abode (I hike and bus ride, you see), and I had a large bottle of the Sailor Jerry's in tow, but had to put it back when I reached the cash register-- over budget!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: GUEST,Mariner
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 04:16 PM

I always associated the line given here as "once more we sail with a northerly gale" as "Once more we sail with a gnarly gale".Gnarly is a word I've heard used by old sailors to describe a dirty, messy gale. ie' "It was a gnarly old sea ".On the album "Shanties and songs of the Sea" by Johnny Collins, Dave Webber and Pete Watkinson the word gnarly is used in their rendition of Maui. At least that what it sounds like to my ear.!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 05:05 PM

Just how "old" were those sailors?

"Gnarly" in that sense is very much a 20th century term. Even a surfer term.

(It originally meant rough with knots or gnarls, like a tree trunk.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: MARINER
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 05:50 PM

Lighter, these would have been early 20th century sailors. I would have known them as old men when I was a young boy over 50 years ago.I come from a community where most of the men went away to sea.Many of the terms they used ,such as "gnarly" would be in common use here until recent times.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 07:18 PM

Thanks for the reply, Mariner. Whatever others may have sung, the word in the earliest noted versions was definitely "northerly."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:19 PM

Harlow's source, Captain R. W. Nye, is mentioned in the San Diego Union (Dec. 12, 1901) as "a whaling captain well known on the [Pacific] coast." At the age of 80 in 1924, he set sail in a 40-foot schooner from San Francisco with his wife and one crewman bound for the Galapagos Is.: " 'We want plenty thrills,' he said" (Greensboro, NC, Record (March 9, 1924). I have found nothing else about him. If they didn't make the Galapagos, I'd assume it would have been newsworthy.

Of equal interest: the San Francisco Chronicle of Dec. 25, 1910, carried a feature written by Nye called "Cruising for the California Grey Whale," describing a whaling cruise by Nye as a seaman in the 1850s. It included the words of "The Arctic Whaler's Return," a song Nye says he "wrote as boy and [which] was formerly roared out by the jolly forecastlemen."

It lacks the familiar chorus and Nye offers no tune. Otherwise it's identical to the version in Harlow, except for a few words in stanza 3.

Nye, 1910, says they'll heave their lead

...where the old Diomeds
Loom to their waist in snow.

The Diomeds are in the Bering Strait (the maritime border between the US and Russia), so that makes a lot more sense than having a ship arrive encrusted with ice in the warm waters of Hawaii. The only other difference is that Harlow's "bristling wind" is a "wintry blast" in Nye's song.

Did Harlow learn the song from Nye's singing (or that of a middleman) long after its appearance in the Chronicle? If not, how explain the appearance of the (undistinguished) tune and the illogical variant words?

One more mystery.

But the young whaler R. W. Nye was the probable author of the lyrics.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:24 PM

I looked at the manuscript of Harlow's work, and some related papers, a couple months ago, in the GW Blunt White Library, Mystic. Sorry to say that nothing regarding Nye caught my attention. I wasn't looking for it though. I'm kicking myself now over a few things I wish I'd looked for.

For what very little it's worth, I can add that "Old Maui" was in a ca.1928 manuscript that later formed 1962's _Chanteying Aboard American Ships_. (Much other material in the 1962 work was not there in 1928.) At the time, Harlow was working on two books, including _The Making of a Sailor_ (1928), and his publisher gently advised him to save the chantey-focused work for a later time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:42 PM

A side note:

The manuscript texts in Frank's 2005 article (which I've not seen), posted above by Charlie in '07, do not exactly correspond to the transcriptions of the same sources in Frank's 2010 _Jolly Sailors_ (which I have seen).

I don't know what sort of footnotes may have appeared in the 2005 article. Just something to watch for, particularly regarding "Diamond Head."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:25 PM

Another trivial difference. Nye, 1910, has "hath blown" for "did blow."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 09:00 PM

Just to add (not much of a revelation…probably obvious) that Harlow collected newspaper scraps and corresponded with some people about songs. I know that is a bit vague - but it is to say that n the late 1920s when he had decided to write about this stuff, he was indeed seeking out sources, as opposed to relying entirely on his recollection of 1870s experiences.


Interestingly, before the publication of _The Making of a Sailor_, which contains some chanties, Harlow was consulted by the men's Glee Club director at Univ. of Washington to create a concert program featuring some chanties. (The director's own 4-part choir arrangement of one of the chanties appeared in an early manuscript of Harlow's.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 10:14 AM

> to create a concert program featuring some chanties

Most interesting. It might account for some of Harlow's seemingly literary verses: tryouts for something appropriate to a '20s choral performance.

"Chanteying" (which is obviously not in finished form) could have used a more critical editor.

(Your next project?)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 08:00 AM

Sorry for being so clueless, but what "lead" are they going to heave? A piece of heavy metal used for bullets and read as if written "led" or something else read as if written "leed"?

(Granted, it should probably rhyme with the "Diamond Head", but since I've heard "Peterhead" sung as "Peterheed" in "The Bonny Ship the Diamond" this ain't helping much. Couldn't find this verse on YouTube, either. Help me, Mudcat, you're my only hope.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 08:15 AM

GUEST,ST

"Mark Twain" stuffs. It's a sounding lead for measuring how deep the water and in some cases the nature of the bottom (sand, mud, gravel &c.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 08:27 AM

"Lead" as in the metal - a weight on the end of a sounding line.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 06:29 PM

Phil, Jack, thanks a lot!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 07:39 PM

The Boston Daily Globe (Apr. 18, 1915) offers a stanza or two sung by the late Captain James Dowden, an old whaling man who'd been at sea as early as 1855.

Once more we sail with a favoring gale
A-bounding over the main
And soon the hills of the tropic climes
Will be in view again.
Six sluggish months have passed away
Since from your shores sailed we,
But now we're bound from the Arctic ground,
Rolling down to [old] Maui

                   (Chorus)

Rolling down to old Maui, my boys,
Rolling down to old Maui,
But now we're bound from the Arctic ground,
Rolling down to old Maui.

O welcome the seas and the fragrant breeze
Blowing high in the lofty air,
And the pretty maids in the sunny glades
Are gentle kind and fair;
And their pretty eyes looking each way
Hoping some day to see
Our snow-white sails before the gale
Rolling [down] to Old Maui.

The version of stanza 1 given - apparently independently - in the Honolulu Advertiser (Dec. 28, 1947), is identical except for line 2: "Laden with odors rare."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 10:14 PM

Great to have this addition , Lighter!

A shameless plug here for a performance I did, using the less common (nowadays) tune and accompanied by the sort of accordion that _could_ have been used in the 1850s (this style of accordion was extant then; I don't know the date of this particularly instrument's manufacture, but probably no later than 1870s).

Rooling Down to Old Mowhee

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Aug 19 - 06:40 PM

Whaleman's Shipping List and Merchants' Transcript (New Bedford) (Jan. 9, 1872), p. 1:

"The following song was written on board a whale ship, some time ago, when nearly all of the Northern Whaling Fleet made the Port of Lahaina, Island of Maui, their rendevous [sic] in the Spring and Fall.             I have myself seen sixty-five ships lying at anchor at a time, their crews ashore on liberty, and enjoying themselves, as only seamen can, after a long and cold season in the Northern Seas. 'Mohee' is the original name of the Island given by Capt. Cook, and the early navigators:

                                     OLD MOHEE.

Once more we are waived by the Northern gales,
   We are bounding o'er the Main,
The pleasant shores of the Tropic Isles
   We soon shall see again.
Six sluggish moons have waxed and waned,
   Since from those isles sailed we;
But now we're bound from the Arctic Ground,
   Rolling down to old Mohee.

The Northern winds they do blow strong,
   Old Cape East rolls away,
Or sleeps in the mists which the moonbeams kissed,
   On the wide St. Lawrence Bay.
We have toiled away for many a day
   On the broad Kamskatka Sea,
But we'll think of that as we laugh and chat
   With the girls of Old Mohee.

Through many a blow of frost and snow,
   And bitter squalls of hail,
Where spars are bent and canvas rent,
   We have braved the Northern gale.
The hoary piles of the sea-girt isles
   That deck the Arctic Sea,
Are many, oh, many a league astern
   As we sailed to old Mohee.

We'll heave our lead where Alaska's head
   Looms up from its waste of snow,
Our masts and sails are covered with ice,
   Our decks are white below;
The Western gale on our weather beam,
   The trade winds on our lee,
It seemed that the blast as it whistled past,
   Brought tidings of Old Mohee.

And now we have reached our destined port,
   No more will we plow those seas;
Our cruise is done, our anchor down,
   Our ship swings in the breeze,
Our yards are square, our decks are clear,
   Now to the shore haste we,
And we'll laugh and sing till the wet groves ring
   On the Isle of Old Mohee.

An ample share of toil and care,
   We whalemen undergo,
But when 'tis o'er what care we more,
   How keen the blasts may blow;
We are homeward bound that joyful sound
   Our hope is soon to be,
We'll think of that as we laugh and chat
   With the girls of Old Mohee.

Now it's heartfelt joy without alloy,
   That fills each hopeful breast;
For dearer yet, yes, dearer yet,
    Is our home in the far wide West.
We will tread once more our native shore,
   The land of the brave and free,
And think when home how we used to roam
   In the groves of Old Mohee.


"East Cape" (now Cape Dezhnev) is the easternmost point of mainland Asia, northwest of the Diomede Islands.

"Alaska's head" may conceivably refer to Head Rock of the island of Adak in the Aleutians. The mainland of Alaska is far to the east, while the Rock is almost directly between East Cape and the Hawaiian Islands.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 11:28 PM

Wow, Lighter, thank you for that!
On Sunday I heard this song (usual lyrics) sung in a minor key. Different but still good!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 04:04 AM

That version seems to be the same as the one in the Jolly Jack album entitled the same as this thread. The last line of each verse being repeated as chorus. Well worth trying to find as there were fewer trios sang better harmonies than Jolly Jack. All sadly now passed away :-(

Subject: RE: Origins: Rolling Down to Old Maui
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 06:13 AM

"Every cloud has a silver lining"

This week's news about an earthquake/(possible)tsunami finally included maps showing where the Kamchatka Sea is.

Yes, I could always have looked it up, but this is now memorable.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rolling Down to Old Maui
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 07:01 AM

My thoughts too, Nigel. I did know roughly where it was, but the TV reportage of the earthquake/tsunami brought it into sharp focus.

Subject: RE: Origins: Rolling Down to Old Maui
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Jul 25 - 07:48 AM

Thanks for the tip, Gnome!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUHoGl8Ycss


One of the best renditions I've heard.