BS: Belfast Riots

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:02 PM

Well I will come back for this Mick.

Accepted Mick. Hopefully my "come back Conrad"... comments can be taken by you in a similar vein - a post made by me in sheer anger, rather than any desire to see him back here or be taken as to mean (regardless on points we may agree or disagree over) a change in position from me to one whereby I no longer wish that the people in NI manage one day to live in peace.

To clarify, mine is simply I believe wrongs exist on both sides, there have been actions I can not ever accept on either side (again you can count my Britsh government in as a criminal at times). And on this particular issue, I can only see a desire to march through Catholic territory as a desire to provoke hatred.

What still gets me is that a simple statement like.

It does seem to me that there is a loyalist element (and I don't mean all loylists) that has no interest in peace.

Is enough to get me called a pillock from some republicans, even though the blame I was attaching was cleary to loyalists and to no-one else.

The problem I have here is that I can not dot the "I's" and the "T's" carefully enough to please all republicans here and fail to see that everyone who because of the side they are born on by whatever terms of division (loyalist, protestant) we use must be evil (or saintly for that matter).

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:17 PM

Jon - I always appreciate when someone posts the truth as they see it. Unlike some (and I am guilty of this everyone once in a while :) ) you have tried to be level-headed when engaged in discussion here, and we all have those posts where we lash out at a mudcatter or two. Your contributions are welcomed and valued because the purpose of the threads is to have discussions and when only speaking to those that share your same viewpoint, discussions aren't nearly as lively or interesting.

I would encourage you to hang around a little longer and let Tiocfaidh explain why he posted what he posted...And Tiocfaidh, I know you've had a long couple of days recently, but maybe you could just give us a brief post on loyalism :) (your definition, etc)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:35 PM

I regard the whole NI dispute foolish.

Two peoples, identical, warring over what?

Nothing. The only beneficiary from the disputes are drug-barrons and weapons smugglers.

To even contemplate sustaining the argument over historical details etc, is suicide of a nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:41 PM

GUEST-one more thing for you in case you decide to check back in with our progress. And really, for anyone interested in some background on supporting murder...
The British government funded, equipped and supplied the Red Hand Commandos in Ulster - the leadership admitted it. Also, the Brits funded and trained the early UVF. Interesting bit of info I thought. Still beautiful here - literally not a cloud in the sky! Cheers!

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:44 PM

Hello again! For any of you that want to follow up on my post above, just refer to Peter Taylor's tv series "Loyalists." All that I just posted was admitted to on tv.

And David, I love historical details! That's what I do, though the arguing part I could do without. Love learning new things, though. Have any historical details to throw my way?

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:35 PM

Good man Jon! Just proves what a Class 1 dipstick you really are.
'Loyalists' are extreme Unionists, ye feckin' eejit.

Note the word extreme in that sentence.
... and the incongruity with the term interest in peace...

You (like a good few others), talk off the top of your head half the time; a hazy mixture of sound bytes remembered, things your family or schoolfriends said, and damage limitation.

Damage limitation, because you know the injustices served upon us, and that if the same thing was to have happened the English, your people would have reacted just the same.... like, for instance if DeValera hadn't had locked up all those Germans during WWII, and Germany did manage to invade, your 'Resistance Army' would have been an honourable concept, would it not?

Are you telling us theat the French Resistance were terrorists?

As for taking religion out of politics... Sinn Féin have been advocating the union of the Working Classes since Civil Rights; but you never heard them say this, as you couldn't hear their voices... banned as they were from telling you what Sinn Féin was all about.

Wolfgang... there is a whole thread covering Loyalist weapons.
(I thought you were one of the more thoughtful members of this forum...)

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:48 PM

Some Guests on this page are bigger liars than Blair and Bush, we have been told the rioting was carried on by children,and the rioting was minimal?, the damage has been estimated to run into millions.

The police were fired on by armed loyalists and one prominent loyalists is in hospital as a result of a blast bomb going off prematurely, the Klan in the guise of the orange order are angry because they cannot get marching through Harlem.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM

Thanks for the reply Tir, it underlines my feeling that poison indeed does exist on both sides.

Jon

Over and out for good this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:33 PM

Oh and I forgot, thanks Epona for asking me to stick around a bit. I'd had hoped that your reply had meant at least maybe some attempt towards some understanding even if agreement was not to be achieved.

But once again, I'm left feeling there is no such desire in certain quarters here.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM

That is the problem, Guest,Jonoverandoutforgoodthistime, your perceptions suit your thought processes.

We don't perceive, you see.

We have had to learn it by experience, instead.

The Loyalists are pissed off cos they can't march through Nationalist areas.

I'm left feeling there is no desire from certain quarters at even a bit of lip-service paid to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

If it isnt them it's you. If it isnt you it's them. Maybe the rest of us are bored to the eye teeth with the bullying and bloodshed on both sides. Untie yourself from the whipping post and stop licking your wounds because after thirty years of terrorism you had to admit you were getting fucking nowhere. Tough. Deal with it. Move on and grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:03 PM

Thirty years of armed struggle brought us further than the 600 previous ones.
You have to admit that

We have been trying to untie ourselves from that whipping post fro years, Guest, but it is very difficult to untie your own hands, feet, and to remove the gag, while the public are constantly calling for your blood.

Name me a scenario that we see now, that was caused because the Nationalist population of one area insisted on their right to march through a Loyalist area?

If it isn't them...., then who is it, Guest.
It can't be us.
We are not at war any longer.

Perhaps you and your kind would like to deal with it.

You seem to have avoided every opportunity afforded to you so far, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:17 PM

He hit me first. No I didn't. Yes he did. For crying out loud, after 630 years at your reckoning, why don't the people of NI realise that the only way forward is to shelve the who hit who first crap and concentrate on the future. And before you tell us how the IRA are trying, listen to yourself, it's all us and them still.

Maybe the next generation will be more clued up. Or maybe you aren't representative of the present. But either way try and find some common ground. Start here, tell us something you like about England. If you asked us what we like about Ireland you would have a thread full of praise for the natural beauty, the warmth of the people , the love of the arts, the passion of the poets and authors etc etc etc. That doesn't mean there aren't some right eyesore buildings and ignorant arses over there. But why dwell on the negative.

Go on, tell us something you like/admire about England.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:51 PM

"why don't the people of NI realise that the only way forward is to shelve the who hit who first crap and concentrate on the future"

It is the likes of yourself who are concentrating on the who hit who second, strategem.
We can hardly be blamed for button-holing you on this, and putting you right.

Something I admire about England?

Tha fact that some of its people don't buy into defending an oppressive State, such as you live in.

That, Colman's Mustard, and Fairport Convention

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:56 PM

Now, you go on and name me a scenario (like what's happening right now), that was caused because the Nationalist population of one area insisted on their right to march through a Loyalist area?

It's not even a question of 'who hit who first', Guest.
Doesn't even get as far as that.

It is and always has been a question of 'these bastards are killing us, and all we hear are middle class English people singing "We Shall Overcome" in folk clubs'

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:59 PM

Belfast very normal here tonight. Media not out stirring it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:00 PM

You nearly fell at the first hurdle with the 'likes of yourself', generalisations are lazy. In case you have missed it, I hate those on both sides who indiscriminately kill. Is that clear enough? You also have no knowledge of my politics.

But we agree on Colman's mustard. Now, that wasn't too hard was it? Seeing as we have found safety in all things culinary, do they still sell Taylor's red lemonade? Tayto crisps? Beanos?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:07 PM

I like Robbie Williams! ;)

GUEST, I could almost agree with you about the "who hit whom first" scenario except this isn't just an issue dealing with history. These problems aren't behind us yet, though the day they are will be unforgetable! These issues of loyalist terror conducted against Republicans and Catholics is ongoing as we've been discussing. It may be an old, OLD problem, but regardless of its age, it's still current. The PSNI and British troops still remain on the sidelines and watch as loyalist paramilitaries terrorize residents of Catholic and Republican areas. Maybe that will change now that the "law" of the North of Ireland has come under direct fire from the same gangs they used to back. One can only pray that it will be so. We'll have to watch and see...

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:10 PM

epona I have no interest in 'sides' and even less in robbie I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:14 PM

My interest is in Eire being whole again. No interest in Robbie?! Shocking! :) Haha...

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM

Yeah, well you called it 'terrorism' guest.
The 'likes of yourself' call it terrorism too

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:23 PM

I have no problem being collectively labelled as one who calls killing innocents terrorism. See, we agree again, this is becoming a habit.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:33 PM

That's great, Guest.

Let's hear it for the British Army now.....

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:39 PM

Any particular reason why?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:44 PM

This is not one of those times where one can say "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king", Guest

The particular reason why, might be that you 'hate people who indiscriminately kill .

... and we were doing so well

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:48 PM

Exactly, not one armed organisation (illegal or otherwise) has come out of this mess unscathed. Where you might feel comfortable defending the murder of innocents, I do not. Lets face it no one has played a blinder over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:58 PM

EVERY death is tragic, Guest; every last one.

But why not condemn the actions of your army directly, instead of terminology like 'illegal or otherwise', and 'no one'?

The vocabulary comes from the same stable as the collective, 'ALL', when referring to any other grouping than 'Sinn Féin/IRA', and it covers up (from what I can make out) a very deep sense of guilt hidden inside the British mentality.

Not only have you failed the first hurdle, Guest.
You've made a few false starts to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:01 PM

The IRA were an illegal army, the British army aren't. That isn't opinion. I can't really see where your paranoia over the words 'no one' is coming from, you are crediting me with sublime messages that I haven't sublimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:08 PM

'Illegal' in your eyes, maybe...
Opinion it is, then.

But what you're saying is that if you are a 'legal' entity, you can commit war crimes with greater impunity.

Not paranoid, Guest. Just being as pedantic as you.

So..., why not condemn the actions of your Army directly.

No buts....

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:14 PM

I wholesale condemn the illegal actions of any armed organisation, no problem there.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:15 PM

But what you're saying is that if you are a 'legal' entity, you can commit war crimes with greater impunity.

Erm no.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:40 PM

Sorry to interupt, folks, but I must correct GUEST. When you say the IRA is illegal, it wasn't illegal until the British Government made it illegal. If you recall, the great Republican Bobby Sands and company died on hunger strike because they ceased to be treated as combatants. The Government arbitrarily decided they were no longer prisoners of war, that they were now common criminals. Kind of like they considered doing to the American revolutionaries.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:47 PM

You're not correcting me. I said it was illegal and you have just agreed with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:47 PM

Mick, in fact they (the British) first used the word terrorist to describe the Sons of Liberty, an American patriot group that was fighting for independence. According to the crown, it was illegal to be a Son, and yet today we honour them as heros. Interesting, isn't it?

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:01 PM

I haven't, Guest.

Not that it'll make a whole lot of difference to your everyday, as we don't, erm..., know who you are, but just let me see you condemn the State Sponsored Terrorism your Government and it's pillars visited upon a people who, without exception English, Scottish and Welsh Mudcatters agree, are a very friendly and open people.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:06 PM

You haven't what? Sorry to be slow on the uptake but the concurrent threads are taxing at this hour.

I thought I already had condemned all attrocities carried out by armed organisations. I know I did, because we had the illegal or otherwise sideline following it.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:23 PM

tee heeeeeeeee

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:26 PM

I haven't agreed that the IRA was an illegal organisation.

The British Government outlawed the Irish language, the practice of Catholicism.

Did that make it illegal to us?

You haven't mentioned the British Army by name, Guest.
Same way as up until Tiocfaidh, Tír Chonaill, and myself made some of our detractors mention the words 'Loyalist' and 'Terrorist', related to each other, in the same sentence. Same way as we are trying to get good folks to say British Army/Loyalist Terrorist in the same fashion.

Care to take the plunge?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:39 PM

tee heeeeeeeee

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:40 PM

Haha! Hey, GUEST, you should check out the World's Thinnest Books thread and see if you can any. I love that one.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:42 PM

Nice try. I haven't agreed with you, because I don't recognize Great Britain as the legal authority in the North of Ireland.   I simply pointed out that they only became illegal because your government said so. You see, I don't get where they get their legal authority. Could you point the way towards the constitution or articles that make the North of Ireland a legitimate entity? So if it isn't, then the change in status was simply by fiat? Nope, your folks just continued a centuries old policy of telling the Irish that if they won't be nice, you will just change the rules.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:46 PM

GUEST - I think you need some sleep soon because you're, erm...getting silly. :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:53 PM

I simply pointed out that they only became illegal because your government said so.

Yes mick that's the way law works.

Tir if it's all the same with you I'll skip this thread and leave it to the ex vet to extoll the virtues of peace. Sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:18 PM

Cool, but before you leave could you answer the question? Or any of the questions?
That's the way the law works in a legally constituted government. Where is this body in the North of Ireland? What authority is it that brought it into being? Oh .... that's right .... it happened at the point of a gun barrel ..... seems I remember the folks there never did quite accept that.
And me being a vet has what to do with any of this?

Intellectual weakling. Always has been.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:20 PM

Suit yourself, Guest, but Mick hasn't said anything untrue here.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 12:22 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong. I've been trying to follow this thread...

The Loyalists wanted to march through a Catholic part of town to antagonize the residents there.

Loyalists also shot at police.

It doesn't take too many brains to figure out that the Loyalists are wrong.

I used to think that once Ireland became whole again, the Loyalists would just assimilate into the Irish culture. I am beginning to think that when Ireland becomes whole, the Loyalists will have to be stripped of their Irish citizenship and be sent back to England. Maybe England doesn't want them either.   

The Loyalists in Ireland are wrong and if they want to stay in Ireland they should stop making so much trouble. They should learn to live in peace or they will be arrested as traitors.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:04 AM

We certainly don't want them. They aren't British in the same way as anyone except the loonies of the British Movement, they aren't loyal to anyone except themselves, I'd rather have yardies than that shower of amateur racketeers. How do I know they are amateurs? Pros would have left the place long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:11 AM

Everyone i so wrapped up in the blame game. Scoring points against each other.

The whole dispute is a farce, the whole Ireland civil dispute is a farce.

One type of folk benefit from the dispute - Drug barrons and weapon dealers.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:46 AM

See BBC NI, rioting again last night, 10 police injured, rioting loyalists stop a bus and rob elderly people travelling to church, two year old baby has skull fractured when brick smashes window of a passing car.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:01 AM

Ita all part of the fun isnt it ?? Oh and by the way , 100 !!