BS: A Declaration of Impeachment

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:43 PM

Sawzall:

Boy, I am getting plumb tired of your one-eyed snakeoil lip. Get this straight, son. Your yammering is old, off the wall and without foundation. Read my goddamned post, or if you will not, just zip your lip, figuratively speaking, and go yammer at someone else. You are twisting my statements, and acting like a crazy ADD ten-year old in a whorehouse. If you won't talk straight, then buzz off and go twist someone else's words around. Start with your whacko friend Palin--you guys deserve each other.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:59 PM

Some basic questions about some of the truth you claim you bring to us Amos. I hope you will fulfill your moral obligation to answer and not run and hide as usual:

"Bush has expressed his desire to keep our military forces in Iraq."

So do Obama and McCain. So if having a desire to keep our military forces in Iraq is an impeachable offense should Obama and McCain be impeached?

---

"the people from [of?] Georgia do not want Russia in their nation"
Does Mr Lukasson or Amos the truthful or Dennis the Menace want Russian troops in Gerogia? Would they complain if it was their responsibility to complain? If they did complain would it somehow be an impeachable offense?

Or maybe it is impeachable only if one complains after expressing a desire to keep our military forces in Iraq? Then would Obama and McCain be impeachable under the same reasoning?

---

"We American citizens do not want Russia to control Georgia"
So we are all Impeachable?

---

"Bush is the only president who promoted torture of prisoners"
I haven't heard of any evidence of that. However Mr Obamas associates have admitted promoting the bombing and killing of innocent people and Obama promotes them. Does that mean Obama should be impeached?

---

"plus all of the American casualties"
Mr. Clinton racked up 7500 military dead during his 8 years of peace time. Has Bush exceeded that?

---

"I would be in favor of having Bush impeached before he leads us into World War III". Is there enough time to start up world war III?

---

"Our economy has gone to pot during this Bush watch"
According to Joseph Stiglitz, the most quoted economist in the world, it was Bubba that fucked up the economy:

Clinton's Chairman Of Council Of Economic advisers, Joseph Stiglitz, Said Recession Started During Clinton's Tenure. "It would be nice for us veterans of the Clinton Administration if we could simply blame mismanagement by President George W. Bush's economic team for this seemingly sudden turnaround in the economy, which coincided so closely with its taking charge. But � the economy was slipping into recession even before Bush took office, and the corporate scandals that are rocking America began much earlier...
... during the Clinton Administration "the groundwork for some of the problems we are now experiencing was being laid. Accounting standards slipped; deregulation was taken further than it should have been; and corporate greed was pandered to..."

Take your time Amos. As the greatest Replublican of all time said: Let him answer fully, fairly, and candidly. Let him answer with facts, and not with arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM

LAst time I saw anyone twist so much, he was hanging from an oak tree.

My proposition: "A citizen of the United States has voiced the following opinion." Truth Value: True.

Your implied proposition: "Amos is lying because he cannot prove that the citizen's statement is true and factual." Truth value: False, not to mention bizarre.

It seems to me, therefore, that you are invested in slander and derogation, Sawz.

Nowhere in this thread have I claimed that the opinions of other people, which I post or link to here, are all factual statements. They are opinions. You may disagree, and disprove them all you want to.

But you may not call me a liar because I make public the fact that citizens have voiced those opinions.

So, before you answer, make sure you have removed your head from its dark retreat.


A

---

Tuckahoe, NY (PRWEB) October 23, 2008 -- "Author Paul J. Landis has completed an enhanced web site and the new "Tribune Gazette" to support updates and an updated title to his book "A Real 9/11 Commission," all of which report the strong evidence that supports the decisions by the Citizens of Vermont to "indict Bush and Cheney as criminals".. There is significant new information and additional content covering a number of critical current issues, Landis told us, thus justifying the new title "A Real 9/11 Commission Will Help Free America, Now" (ISBN 0-9760408-2-4, April 2007; US $14.75, UK, £ 9.85.) The "Tribune Gazette" has been designed to provide an affordable newspaper format and mirrors the topics covered in the updated book and web site , www.wethepeoplewethemedia.com, all available now.

Landis tells us "the book had been updated and the new web site mostly completed when I learned of the actions by the Vermont citizens that inspired the new "Tribune Gazette" headline: "Another shot that will be heard around the world!"

On March 4, 2008, the citizens of Marlboro and Brattleboro, VT voted "to indict Bush and Cheney for crimes against our Constitution."

The article read: "Shall the Select board instruct the Town Attorney to draft indictments against President Bush and Vice President Cheney for crimes against our Constitution, and publish said indictments for consideration by other authorities and shall it be the law of the town of Marlboro that law enforcement agencies hired by the Town of Marlboro, pursuant to the above-mentioned indictments, arrest and detain George Bush and Richard Cheney in Marlboro if they are not duly impeached, and prosecute or extradite them to other authorities that may reasonably contend to prosecute them?" www.wethepeoplewethemedia.com/vermont.htm

Are our courageous citizens in Vermont the first to determine that Bush and Cheney have committed criminal act, crimes against the U.S. Constitution?

"A President, any President, who maintains that he is above the law--and repeatedly violates the law--thereby commits high crimes and misdemeanors, the constitutional standard for impeachment and removal from office." "


From here.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:58 PM

Factual statement: People have stated that Amos is lying.


Factual statement: People have stated that Amos presents opinions as facts, until called upon to provide evidence, then says they are just opinion.


Factual statement: People have stated that Amos has presented a case against Bush based ONLY upon opinion, and without considering any of the root causes for Bush's actions.


All of the above are true, right Amos????

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

"Despite the uncoming end of their terms it is crucial to the integrity and reputation of our great nation that we hold Bush and Cheney accountable for their crimes against the American people and humanity at large ... we must practice what we preach to the world... Impeach Bush and Cheney.

It is never too late to do the right thing. We have some incredible messes to clean up from this administration ... so we need to pull together as Americans and get busy "cleaning house." The time is now."

Kim Tostenson - Evansville

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

Reminder:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM

I suspect that each of those statements does not come from "people", but from a person, Bruce. People have proabbly said all kinds of nasty things about me when I wasn't around, though, so I can let it go.


:D


A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM

Amos:

"My interest is impeachment is as a matter of simple, clear justice based on actual, discovered, facts."

So where is the proof that "this "Bush conflict," which has cut off our crude oil imports from the big oil-producing nations, which has caused the totally unreasonable oil prices to get out of hand."?

"Last time I saw anyone twist so much, he was hanging from an oak tree. "

So whose lynching did you participate in?

Was it Summary Justice or was it preceded by a trial?

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:31 PM

Your subtelty and capability of perception of context is about as delicate as a large stone falling off a tall building, Sawz.

When you jam together things from separate contexts and pretend they are from the same context, you create a lie.

If you cannot tell the difference between a statement of opinion, a statement of fact, and a statement of intent, you have no business reading this thread, so cease and desist. It will only upset you.

It's like this: things are different when they are not the same. Once that sinks in, uyou may start to get some traction.

Actually he was hanging from an oak tree while seated on a backyard swing, and he was twisted because he had been kicking off in the wrong direction.

Like you.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:22 AM

Let me see. Amos claims he is bringing the truth and proven facts. Then he posts something that he has to deny is truth or factual.

Actually it is rather satisfying to read this thread because it proves over and over that some people cannot separate fact from fiction.

The official seal of the democratic party.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:22 PM

I am quite aware of the difference, Saw-brain.

What you fail to be aware of is the difference between reporting what people say and saying it oneself as though it were fact.

If I report that many small-brained people have flapped their hands and claimed Barack Obama is a communist Muslim, a ridiculous assertion on the face of it, it makes it no less true that the ridiculous assertion is being claimed by the people who claim it.

I wish you had a real brain, though. It would make a lot of difference to our conversations.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:40 PM

ANd your funny link is puerile and small-minded.

I begin to wonder what your real age is.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:00 PM

You have to be a certain minimum age to get a job flipping burgers and parking cars.

Perhaps that is why we don't agree. You are on the top end if the social scale I am so much farther down.

That's why you know what is best for the American people, like an elitist.

Being so amart and all and being quite aware of the difference between fact and fiction, please tell us if this is fact or fiction:

"this "Bush conflict," which has cut off our crude oil imports from the big oil-producing nations, which has caused the totally unreasonable oil prices to get out of hand."

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:32 PM

IT's an opinion. I suspect it isn't a very well researched one, but I suggested to you some time ago that you track down the originator of the opinion and ask him why he thinks that.

If you are near the minimum age for valet and Burger King, it explains a lot about your great hunger for Manichean views, and the desire to make wicked enemies out of the "others". It takes working through situations and hammering things out a number of times in different situations to be able to understand the nuances of interactions and how the transactions of life actually work.

I am nowhere near the top end of the social scale. Obama's tax plan will definitely give a tax break.

But I commend you on your energy and hope that you learn much as you go along.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

People who flip burgers and park cars are among those who will be helped the most by Obama's tax plan, as well has his health care plan.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:52 PM

Hopefully when Obama takes office, aside from having his hands full with setting our nation on a better path, he'll find the time & will to see that part of getting US on the right track will be the righting of wrongs done to Americans & other citizens of the world by bringing most of the Bush's present & past administration to justice, if front of the World Court for crimes against humanity, war crimes, for violating the Geneva Conventions & human rights violations & then in front of an American court for High Treason, for voilating our Constitution & for violating our civil rights. May he & his traitorous lot spend the rest of thier unnatural lives in living hell, may they never be remember, may their final resting place know no peace & remained unmarker forever, may their judgement be announced to the world & their names from then on never be mentioned again. If there is a God may he never have mercy on their souls & may the devil have his way with them from now until the 12th of never.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:13 PM

So even though you can tell the difference, you refuse to do so?

"I suggested to you some time ago that you track down the originator of the opinion and ask him why he thinks that."

I did Amos. I joined that blog and asked him when where and how the US was cut off and he was too chicken to answer too.

And even though I am a lowly hamburger flipper and car parker, talked down to by elitists, I have no problems with health care. I do not need any government help.

I am not a whiner looking for handouts.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:25 PM

Sawsall, if it's fine with you the rest of the world can go f&%#k themselves, glad that you're not your brother's keeper.

If you're not whinning then you're a selfess brat, the spoon many not be silver but it's still stuck up your you know where.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:43 PM

My guess is the burger flipper/car park attendant in this thread is either not what they say they are, or they're still very young and that's why they think they don't have any health care problems. My guess is that this person either has no insurance, or is under-insured, but thinks they don't need health care because they're still young and healthy.

Personally, I tend to think this person isn't a burger flipper or a car parker. I can't imagine anyone with those kinds of jobs who wouldn't want a tax break. Or maybe they would rather pay higher taxes than vote for a Black person for president.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:31 AM

Big hint for the folks that think they know it all. I was born in 1945.

I was determined to be a burger flipper and car parker by the same Übermensch who does not know if America's oil was cut off or not.

Perhaps someone can explain why not voting for Obama would make my taxes higher.

Obama is definitely not his brother's keeper. He flies in the most expensive campaign jet yet and wears custom made suits while his brother lives on less than $1 a month.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:21 AM

Ah, I see. So the one born in 1945 doesn't need to worry about health care because that person already has insurance (which they could lose, if McCain gets elected). And they'll be eligible for Medicare in two years.

Well, if that's the case, that person is already getting a hand out from other people. All of the other people in that person's insurance pool are paying for their health care. Certainly, that person is not paying for all of it him or herself. And when that person becomes eligible for Medicare, then he or she will be getting a handout from the government if he or she uses it.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:33 AM

Not voting for Obama could cause someone's taxes to be raised if McCain becomes president and he is able to get his tax and health care plans approved. Becuase any money that is paid on that person's behalf for their insurance premiums will be taxed. If that person is paying taxes on more than $250,000, then some of that could be offset by the reduction in taxes McCain would give to people in that tax bracket. If that person is paying taxes on less than $250,000, but more than $150,000, they will probably come out about even either way tax wise (although they could lose their insurance if McCain gets elected). If they are paying taxes on less than $150,000, they will come out better under Obama's plan, and substantially so if they earn less than $100,000, because they will receive a bigger tax cut under Obama's plan than under McCain's plan, and because the insurance premiums paid on their behalf by their employer won't be taxed. And they will not find themselves suddenly without insurance as they are likely to under McCain's plan.

Burger flippers and car parkers will definitely come out way ahead of where they are now if Obama is elected and his tax and health care plans are realized.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:43 AM

I repeat, this burger flipper and car parker does not need nor want a handout from the government or any messing around with the health care system.

What I could use most is less whining from people that do not appreciate the fact that they live in the country that provides them with the most opportunity and highest standard of living of any country in the world.

If this is not so, why do people from countries with free health care and lower taxes invade the US?

Take the socialist utopia of Cuba for instance. If you are having trouble with health care, go to Cuba and your problems will be over.

Or Canada where there is an organization that smuggles people into the US for medical treatment before they die waiting for it in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:58 AM

People who have insurance, as I've said before, are accepting handouts. Any money above the amount of their premiums, copays and deductables that their insurance pays for them is money they are being given as a handout from the other members of their insurance pool.

Get ready for some major messing around with the health care system if McCain gets elected, because his plan is the most radical change to our health care "system" that anyone has ever proposed.

According to his plan, any money that is paid on anyone's behalf for their insurance (employer based insurance), will be taxed. This will mean that the young and healthy members of everyone's insurance pool will opt out of their employer based plans and buy cheap insurance that only the young and healthy can get. This will leave the older people who are more in need of care as the only ones in the employer based insurance pool. This will make the premiums too expensive for many employers and employer based plans, and many, many people will lose their current insurance. And the ones who don't will have to pay taxes on theirs.

I don't need to move to another country. This country is a democracy and I can work to change what's wrong with this country instead of having to leave. That's why people leave places like Cuba to come here. But I already have this right, so there's no reason for me to go anywhere. On the other hand, people like the above poster, who seem to think that voters don't have the right to try to improve this country, those are the ones who would be more comfortable living in a dictatorship. I invite them to go find one that will allow them in. I'm sure there's plenty to choose from.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:24 AM

100% paid for privately with no government involvement but still "People who have insurance, as I've said before, are accepting handouts"

The same is true of any insurance, auto, homeowners.

Another myth:

"employer based insurance), will be taxed."

It already is because you cannot deduct any medical expenses from your income unless it is 10% or more of your income.

Ergo you have to pay taxes on money you earn to pay for medical insurance.

In Cuba they don't have to pay any taxes on medical insurance so moving would solve your problems. Or do you object to a country that takes from the rich and gives to the poor?

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:19 AM

Why should I move to another country? I can work to make this one a better one. Which, to my way of thinking, is the most patriotic thing I can do.

100% percent privately funded is still a handout. As I said, in the case of private insurance, instead of the money coming from our tax dollars, that money is coming from everyone else's premiums. So every time someone's medical insurance pays their medical bills, they aren't the ones who are paying those bills, it's everyone else in their insurance pool who are paying those bills. So that makes it a handout. And really, it's no different than people getting their medical bills paid from taxpayer money. It's all coming from the same people - which is to say other people.

And in the case of taxpayer funded medical care, everyone pays in and everyone gets the same amount of access to medical care. With the system we have now, I am subsidizing the medical care of those who have insurance, but I don't have any access to medical care myself.

I am subsidizing the above poster's medical care (that's right - I am giving that poster a handout) because I have to pay higher prices for the goods and services I buy from employers who contribute money towards the medical insurance for their employees, even though I have no access to medical care myself.

So that means that the above poster is getting a handout from me for their medical care, but that poster doesn't think I should be able to have any access to medical care myself.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:48 AM

By the way, people don't currently pay any taxes on the money that employers pay towards their insurance premiums. But McCain has said that the way he is going to pay for his health care plan will be to cut back Medicare, and to make people pay taxes on the insurance premiums that their employers pay for.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:15 PM

Why should I vote for socialized medicine? Just to shut up a bunch of whiners?

Go ahead and vote. Vote any way you want. Vote early and vote often.

Instead of moving to another country that serves your needs, change the US so it is like those other countries that you would not want to move to.

You will also bring a halt to the smuggling of people from Canada to the US for medical treatment.

While you are at it, open up the borders to further degrade our health care system so everybody is equal and send the bill to the rich people, the bastards that voluntarily donate to hospitals and health care around the world.

Ever heard of Pro Mujer? Another outfit those slimy rich, capitalist, exploiters of poor people voluntarily donate too.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

What to Do with Bush and Cheney?
By DENNIS LOO

It's been eight years - almost to the day – that Bush and Cheney lost the election but seized the White House anyway.

It's been four years – almost to the day – that Bush and Cheney lost the election again, but took the White House anyway.

Now we are on the verge of yet another election, the third in a row dubbed by many "the most important in our lifetime." Bush and Cheney aren't on the ballot, but those who would carry on their policies are. And once again the Democratic Party, the loyal opposition, puts forth their alternative.

What has not been broached in this election contest? What has most conspicuously been avoided?

* * *

In spite of the multitudinous evidence of their abuse of office and their horrid crimes strewn around us like rubble from an earthquake, the Bush regime remains: rotting, festering, and infecting the people, the country, and the planet, despoiling our past, our present, and setting the precedent for a future in which any president can override the law at will.

For a White House as unpopular as this to leave office Scott free can only mean that the rest of this country's political leadership has actively colluded with them.

There have been literally scores of events during the last eight years that could have and should have precipitated a legitimacy crisis, beginning with the stolen election of 2000. In every instance, the Democratic Party and the mass media have refused to expose the illegitimacy of Bush and Cheney's ascension to power and their continued rule, no matter how egregious the revelation, no matter how fundamental the trespass, no matter how widespread the people's demand for accountability and justice.

See rest of article here at CounterPunch.org.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:46 AM

I know I would love living in Canada where, my Canadian husband says, the health care is every bit as good as the health care here, and where it is far more accessible than it is here. But my son lives in the US, and my husband likes the weather here where we live. So yeah, I shouldn't have to leave. I should be able to stay and help improve things here for everyone. If the majority of people want universal health care (and it appears that they now do), we ought to have universal health care. That's what democracy is all about. Those whiners who don't like democracy are free to move to the totalitarian country of their choice.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:53 AM

By the way, talking about smuggling people into the US from Canada can't possibly scare someone (like me and my family) who has no access to health care whatever. I don't think the reality of what that means is understood by the person who is arguing with me on this subject.

Almost fifty million people in the United States of America have no access to any health care whatever. I'm going to repeat that for those who are need extra help with comprehension...

ALMOST FIFTY MILLION PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DO NOT HAVE ANY ACCESS TO ANY MEDICAL CARE WHATEVER

For such people, raising the specter of what life is like in places like Canada in an effort to scare them is very silly and very futile.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:21 AM

"the health care is every bit as good as the health care here, and where it is far more accessible than it is here"


"Heartbeat Windsor is a private volunteer organization founded in 1989 whose purpose is to help Canadian heart patients obtain critically needed surgery in the U.S.

Canada has twelve magnetic resonance imagers used for diagnoses, or one for every 2.1 million people compared to 1,375 in the U. S. or one for every 182,000 people. In Canada there are only eleven facilities doing open heart surgery compared with 793 in the USA and fourteen sites doing organ transplants compared to 319 in the USA.

There are waits for operations such as hernias, cataracts and coronary bypass grafting. Many Canadians die before their wait is up, and this of course, saves the system money."

More

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:28 AM

Listen, I'm married to a Canadian. All of my in-laws live in Canada. None of them has any trouble getting the medical care they need, and they don't have to wait any longer for their care than people with the best insurance in the US have to wait. My husband got the exact same level of care when he lived in Canada (most of his life) as he got when he had the very best insurance money can buy here in the US. If one were to poll the people of Canada and ask them which system they would prefer - the one they have or the one we have, the vast majority of them would not give up their system in order to have one like ours. Many of them feel that their system should be funded better than it is, but very few of them would give it up.

So which country can we bus our fifty million uninsured to so they can get care?

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:02 AM

And of course, that fifty million figure leaves out the many millions more people in the US who have insurance, who can't get the medical procedures they need because their insurance companies refuse to pay for them. Where shall we bus those people?

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:58 PM

CC:

Obviously they need to get the hell out of this rotten country and go to Canada or Cuba. Anywhere but here.

Then all of their troubles will melt away.

Did you forget the question about Pro Mujer?

Hint: $3.1 million to Pro Mujer from the rotten, evil, greedy capitalist, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:19 PM

Sawz:

On whom are you projecting the attitude that Gates and his Foundation are rotten or evil?

He earned his money. Unfortunately he earned it on the backs of billions of hours of restarts, re-entering documents, frozen system debugs, reboots and reloading by American citizens, probably a trillion dollars worth at ordinary salaried rates, which he got from them for free in exchange for providing them with really second rate software for decades.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:54 PM

I saw what was posted about Pro Mujer. I fail to see how that helps the almost fifty million people in the US with no access to health care, and the hundreds of millions of people in the US who have insurance that doesn't pay for their medical needs. In fact, I fail to see why Pro Mujer was mentioned at all in the context of this discussion. Unless the person who brought it up in this thread is Mr. Bill Gates himself. And if that's the case, I would just like to tell him that I think Microsoft sucks.

So hundreds of millions of people should leave this country because they either can't get insurance here, or because their insurance companies won't pay for their medical needs. I'd say the person who made that suggestion hates democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:27 PM

CC is the one that is complaining and then she accuses someone else of hating democracy.

"DO NOT HAVE ANY ACCESS TO ANY MEDICAL CARE WHATEVER"

Funny how illegal aliens can go to an emergency room and get treated. Maybe they haven't heard your harsh shrill rhetoric yet.

Their study, also published in the Annals of Emergency medicine, found that 83 percent of emergency department visits were made by people who had a doctor, clinic or were members of a health maintenance organization.

Eighty-five percent had medical insurance and 79 percent had incomes above the poverty level.

"The mistaken belief that emergency departments are overcrowded by a small, disenfranchised portion of the U.S. population can lead to misguided policy decisions and a perception by hospital administrators that emergency patients are not as valuable to the institution as patients having elective surgery," Weber said in a statement.

"But our findings indicate that emergency departments serve as a safety net, not just for the poor and uninsured, but for mainstream Americans, and in articular those with serious and chronic illness."

The 1986 Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act requires any hospital taking part in Medicare -- the state-federal health care insurance program for the elderly and disabled -- to provide "appropriate medical screening" to anyone showing up at an emergency room and asking for it.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:35 PM

Emergency rooms don't provide people with the medical care they need. The only thing emergency rooms do is stabilize people and then send them home.

Believe it or not, it is democracy in action when people identify a problem (what I suppose is being characerized as "complaining" by the above poster), and then work to correct that problem.

By the above poster's definition of "complain", our founding fathers were nothing more than a bunch of whiners. Had they taken the attitude that the poster in question has about democracy, this country would never have been created. Our forefathers would have just accepted whatever the King of England did to them without trying to do anything to change it and we would still be subjects of the English Monarch. (I understand that many people feel that there's nothing wrong with being subjects of the English Monarch, but that's a different discussion.)

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:55 AM

Hmmmmmm.......Now into November Amos and let's see:

Karl Rove not in prison and no apparent sign of any activity whatsoever that anybody is looking to put him there.

Vice-President Dick Cheney not impeached and no sign of any "Impeachment" proceedings.

President George W. Bush not impeached and no sign of any "Impeachment" proceedings.

Must say I am looking forward to January when we can finally put this to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:27 PM

Actually, T, he can be impeached after his term has expired. It would, of course, not remove him from office, but it would mitigate the dishonor of having placed him on his silly throne in the first place.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:31 PM

"

What Matters Now? The Bush/Cheney Legacy

Ex-Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, one of many disaffected former Bush White House officials, recounts Vice-President Dick Cheney saying in a 2002 White House meeting: "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter."

The Bush/Cheney years prove that the rule of law and truth don't matter.


This has assumed many different expressions: losing elections and getting the most votes don't matter, torture doesn't matter, committing war crimes as policy and getting caught don't matter, separation of powers doesn't matter, attacking countries that have not attacked you first doesn't matter, international law, Nuremberg, the Geneva Convention, and the UN Charter don't matter, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights don't matter, being repeatedly caught red-handed lying and committing felonies don't matter, having the Democrats holding the majority in Congress doesn't matter, science, evolution, and global warming don't matter, being an American in the face of a Category 4 hurricane doesn't matter, running up unbelievable deficits, carrying out policies that show themselves to be disasters doesn't matter, being more unpopular for a longer time than any White House in at least polling history doesn't matter …the list goes on and on. In fact, just listing the items in this manner could go on for 10,000 words or more without any elaboration attempted.


It's mind-boggling what Bush and Cheney have shown doesn't matter. The sheer magnitude of their ambitions and mission - their very audaciousness - are astonishing. But what is even more amazing … is that they have been successful. As I write these words, it appears as if they will serve out the entirety of their two illegitimately seized two terms in the White House without indictments and without impeachment.

"...Complete article here--worth the read

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:06 PM

Eh Amos, I would venture to guess that the next President of the United States of America, and the elected Members of Congress will have a damn sight more important things to concern themselves with than your rather ludicrous crusade, which has appears to have been based solely upon your own wishful thinking as it distinctly lacks any substantive evidence to support any grounds for Impeachment.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:46 PM

"Karl Rove not in prison and no apparent sign of any activity whatsoever that anybody is looking to put him there.

Vice-President Dick Cheney not impeached and no sign of any "Impeachment" proceedings.

President George W. Bush not impeached and no sign of any "Impeachment" proceedings."


Can you imagine how ANY proceedings on those lines would have overwhelmed the country this last year? The Democrats made a conscious decision NOT to even try, and to concentrate on the elections.

We shall see what happens after Jan. 20.
Crimes are still crimes, and I'd bet that some folks are even now evaluating the evidence and what it would take to present it.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:57 PM

Teribus:

Denial is an easy virtue, but it does not suit you to beat your chest about your commitment to it. That you have chosen to blindly ignore the crimes of the Bush machine is your problem. But you would be more gracious not to trumpet your own ignorance to the world.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:21 AM

"DO NOT HAVE ANY ACCESS TO ANY MEDICAL CARE WHATEVER"

Does your desperate, shrill WHATEVER not include emergency room medical care?

"The emergency department (ED), sometimes termed the emergency room (ER), emergency ward (EW), accident & emergency (A&E) department or casualty department is a hospital or primary care department that provides initial treatment to patients with a broad spectrum of illnesses and injuries, some of which may be life-threatening and requiring immediate attention. Emergency departments developed during the 20th century in response to an increased need for rapid assessment and management of critical illnesses. In some countries, emergency departments have become important entry points for those without other means of access to medical care.

Upon arrival in the ED, people typically undergo a brief triage, or sorting, interview to help determine the nature and severity of their illness. Individuals with serious illnesses are then seen by a physician more rapidly than those with less severe symptoms or injuries. After initial assessment and treatment, patients are either admitted to the hospital, stabilized and transferred to another hospital for various reasons, or discharged. The staff in emergency departments not only includes doctors, nurse practitioners but physician assistants (PAs) and nurses with specialized training in emergency medicine and in house Paramedics and/or emergency medical technicians, respiratory therapists, radiology technicians, Healthcare Assistants (HCAs), medical scribes, volunteers, and other support staff who all work as a team to treat emergency patients and provide support to anxious family members."

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:47 AM

To Amos who came out with - "That you have chosen to blindly ignore the crimes of the Bush machine is your problem.". And to BillD who said - "We shall see what happens after Jan. 20.
Crimes are still crimes, and I'd bet that some folks are even now evaluating the evidence and what it would take to present it."

There should be no need to point out to you both that you are now talking about something realms removed from any "Impeachment" proceedings which if memory serves me correctly was the subject of this thread.

In the course of the years that this thread has been running Amos and others have been invited to produce evidence that could be used to establish a case against members of the current administration - Not once has anything other than opinion ever been offered.

On the Iraq War, Amos has steadfastly refused to acknowledge that it was the Joint House Security Committee that identified Iraq as being the greatest threat to the USA, her interests and her allies. It was all 19 of the USA's Intelligence and Security Services that independently came to the same conclusion and advised the President of the day (Bill Clinton) of their findings in 1998 (If any of you doubt that then read the transcript of the speech given to Congress by Clinton on 17th February 1998).

So BillD if there are "some folks are even now evaluating the evidence" they'd better give some some thought as to how big to build the "Dock" for the accused because it would be a "mass-hysteria" event involving all members of the Senate, all members of the House of Representatives, all members of the Administration, US military Senior Chiefs and upper echlons of your security services. Because if you believe that Bush and Cheney "lied" - Then so did those supplying the information that they were supposed to have lied about.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:53 AM

Alright, I'll rephrase. No access to any medical care whatever without having to go bankrupt and lose their homes.

People who are poor enough to be considered indigent (and therefore eligible for not having to pay the emergency room), already have access to medical care through the medicaid program. The people who have no insurance are middle class people who don't qualify for any kind of medical assistance.

So it's a choice between receiving medical care, and becoming homeless. Being homeless is not a good way to stay alive and be healthy, especially if one is sick.

On the other hand, there are many people in the US who are dying because they can't get life-saving treatments. And many of them actually do have insurance, but their insurance refuses to pay.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM

However, if it is being implied that people can get their medical needs taken care of in the emergency room, that is simply wrong. People cannot do that. Emergency rooms handle emergency situations that people's regular doctors can't take care of during office hours, and urgent medical situations during hours when doctors' offices are closed (like a kid with a high fever). That's all they do.

Subject: RE: BS: A Declaration of Impeachment
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:01 PM

"many people in the US who are dying because they can't get life-saving treatments"

That is in Europe and Canada. The waiting list is so long, due to socialized medicine, that they die waiting.

And regardless of your shrill claim about no MEDICAL CARE WHATEVER, emergency rooms are the safety net as per law.

"medical care - professional treatment for illness or injury"

You are forced to re-define medical care in an ideological way to support your assertions, just has you had to invent another kind of socialisim for McCain to create your double standard of judging good and bad.

Are you belligerent or just uninformed?

Smitherman won't intervene in cancer survivor's OHIP battle
Doug Williamson, Windsor Star
Published: Wednesday, March 12, 2008

A spokeswoman for health minister George Smitherman said Wednesday the minister cannot intervene in the case of Sylvia de Vries, the Windsor woman who spent $60,000 in the U.S. for life-saving ovarian cancer surgery in October of 2006 and whose claim for compensation has been denied by OHIP.

Laurel Ostfield, press secretary to Smitherman, said there are options available.

She said the case of Suzanne Aucoin, the St. Catharines woman who was awarded $70,000 in 2007 after being treated with a cancer drug out of the county, was different.
Sylvia de Vries and her husband drained their life savings so she could have life-saving cancer surgery in 2006 in the United States. OHIP is now balking at reimbursing them.
In that case, the provincial ombudsman was involved.

"All I can tell you is the deputy minister actually issued an apology to Miss Aucoin as a result of her experiences with the ministry. It was a very different circumstance." The woman has since died.

Ostfield said de Vries can appeal to the Health Services Appeal and Review Board, and, if that fails, go to divisional court. De Vries's claim is being denied because she didn't fill out a prior agreement form before having her U.S. medical procedure.

"The minister cannot intervene," Ostfield said. "These laws are in place in order to protect Ontario's health care system. If payment was issued for every single circumstance, we wouldn't be able to sustain the health care system for future generations. So we do have these laws in place for a reason. There are safety nets to make sure that people don't fall through the cracks and that they do receive compensation if it was necessary or deserved."

De Vries's Toronto lawyer Kate Sellar said there is no point going to the appeal board because a prior agreement form was not obtained, and the appeal will be denied on that basis.