Help: US and Cuba

Subject: US and Cuba
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 09:10 AM

This is a serious question. Why are there still sanctions?
It seems like elsewhere in the world there is dialogue and commitment to resolving conflict so why has the US got a blind spot as far as Cuba is concerned?
just wanted to know.....

Roger

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 09:20 AM

I'd also like to know. We "suck up" to those repressive leaders in China, why not Cuba? Sanctions dont work, apparently, most Cubans are happy with Castro (except those who were living high on the hog under Battista). I was in Cuba in 1956. It was a cesspool of corruption with the Mafia running every immoral activity you could name. It's time to wise up.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 09:40 AM

Easy one. The politicians (particularly conservative Repubs: "Godless Communism, you know!, but Dems. as well) suck up to the Cuban Exile community for the sake of a few votes. Notwithstanding the exhile community are the descendants of and heirs to the folks running the cesspool, above.

Thus are the interests of the U.S. (which, by the way, in crass coonservative Republican sell-the-workers-out-to the Corporations style, could make a fortune trading with Cuba) subverted to garner votes & win elections. Q.E.D.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: canoer
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 09:53 AM

The sanctions are both a punishment for Cuba's trying to take an independence from the forces of international capital; and also a steady pressure to force Cuba to go the route of China, Russia, East Germany, et. al., and re-open to capital investment in the way capital wants to invest.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 09:55 AM

Well, as I said in a post a little while ago, this land of liberty will not suffer a successful socialist state in this hemisphere, espcially, as in Chile, if it is the result of popular election. We, (not living in a police state, of cource) will assasinate leaders of any nation which gets in the way of our propaganda.
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Lena
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:08 AM

Can I quickly ask if all the money that it's being made from selling albums after Wenders'Buena Vista Social Club is ending up in sanctions to US?!Arghhhh!! I think it's also partly because it's a bit of a forgotten place.Not much of public opinion's pressure there.But do you think that,if sanctions were away,Cuba would have capital to manage and actually get out of Communism and get a western tourist mecca more than ever?! Or is it really that US can't let go a nation being visibly happy of communism?!(I mean,US did every sort of thing to Italy for decades to put down Communism.For what I've seen,it's a personal allergy they have..). Ops,I was meant to be quick.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:31 AM

Well, this is a very timely subject. I'm Canadian, and I just spent a week in Cuba, the happiest and most wonderful week of my entire life thus far. If the American population knew the Cubans as I do, a million people would march on Washington and demand an end to the US embargo, and shut the damn place (Washington) down until said embargo was lifted. Cuba is a very fine country. They provide free medical treatment on a completely equal basis to all members of the population, and it's good quality medical treatment. They provide free education right to the end of university to anyone who can get the marks and show the ability. They have virtually eliminated illiteracy. I have been in other Lztin American countries, where I saw horrific poverty, homelessness, corruption and desperation. In Cuba I saw no homelessness, no begging, and less police on the street than I see in Canada. I saw a people who are deeply proud of their sovereignty and their struggle for freedom. Batista was a vicious dictator who killed 20,000 people by torture and execution during the Cuban revolution, while the USA supplied him with money, guns, tanks, and helicopters. Batista's best friends were the American mafia, and the big American corporations who owned just about everything in Cuba while the Cuban people lived in misery and abject poverty. Castro beat them with nothing but rifles and machine guns against tanks and helicopters. After Batista fled the country, Castro's revolutionary government put the worst of his henchmen on trial and executed 74 of them, notorious killers and torturers who were responsible for the death of thousands. For this Castro was branded a "barbarian" by the US press. He threw out the Mafia, threw out the casinos, nationalized the vast holdings of the American corporations and gave the land back to the people who lived on it. For this his country was embargoed by the US which doesn't appreciate social justice when it gets in the way of making a buck. The Cubans have achieved a miracle in Latin America, and they should be supported in every way by free-thinking people everywhere. Viva la revolucion!

Little Hawk (George Coventry)

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:54 AM

Cuba was on my mind as the other day I was trying to fax Dr. Fidel Castro Ruz with regards to the Death Penalty which has recently been applied to a wider range of crimes

Roger

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Alice
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:55 AM

There was another PBS story about Cuba aired in the days shortly after the Buena Vista Social Club. P.O.V.: Our House in Havana Silvia Morini returns with her son on a trip to Cuba. She revisits where she lived in Havana, and, as you can read at the link I provided, she changes her mind about the embargo after she returns home. The end of the film shows her back in the US on the phone to Jesse Helms office, as she began a crusade to convince congress to lift the embargo. I posted my experiences with Cuban refugee children living with my family when we had the Elian thread. This is more complicated than rich against poor, because not all the people who left Cuba when Castro took over were rich. None of the families I knew who were refugees were rich. The history isn't that black/white. But, It's true, that just as in Saigon, the US mafia had plenty of business going on in Havana. Getting the corruption of the casinos, prostitution, drugs, etc., out of Cuba was good. Castro wasn't/isn't all a good guy, though. He is just as fanatically opposed to the US as the Miami old guard Cubans are fanatically opposed to him. The younger generations are not as solidified in that fanaticism. Hopefully, that is what will help to end the embargo, as well as the outspoken efforts of people like Silvia Morini.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 11:19 AM

Well said Hawk, and right on the money. You listening Doug R?

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 11:26 AM

You may want to fax Governor George Pataki of New York State about reinstituting the death penalty, too, Roger- also Gov. "Smirky George" Bush about the number of executions in Texas.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 11:51 AM

Sorry I meant to explain that normally it usually a US state governor on the end of my faxes for all the good it does
Virginia??
Most things I have heard about Cuba are good so I was surprised to find the Death penalty in use there

To get back to my original question though. It seems that everyone who visits Cuba and talks about the place says it is wonderful and a terrible shame that is deteriorating all the time through sanctions
So if now Libya and China are talking with the US why has Cuba been left out in the cold??

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 03:43 PM

Lots of informed and knowledgable opinions here. I think its quite simple. Old habits die hard and the Cuban contingent here can be quite significant and a real political pothole. Second, Cuba is 90 miles away.

Don't expect any action for at least another generation.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 04:53 PM

Maybe you've already faxed the governor of New Hanpshire then Roger? She recently over-ruled her own legislature, when it voted to abolish the death penalty.

Then what about sanctions against Iraq? I heard a former US Attorney General (from the Johnson era - Preston?) two or three years ago put a very persuasive case against. The one-time and estimable Algerian leader Abba(?) Ben Bella was on the same platform.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 04:57 PM

My God,only 90 miles from the Commies, Spaw? Maybe there's some high-factor protective cream you can get.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 05:25 PM

Yep, Kendall, I'm here. Greg F: I hate to rain on your parade because evidently, in your mind, the Republicans (and particularly the Cooonservative Republicans) must be responsible for just about every unpopular act the U.S. government takes. Surely you don't have to be reminded that the embargo of Cuba was instigated by John F. Kennedy, who was, I feel a fairly conservative fellow but certainly not a Republican. There have been many Democrat administrations since the embargo was imposed. I don't recall any of them leading the charge to do away with the embargo. Personally, I don't think the embargo is accomplishing what the Kennedy Administration, or any other administration since that time, hoped that it would. It was hoped that the Cuban people would overthrow the Castro regime. That hasn't happend, and only the people of Cuba are being hurt by the embargo. I'm reasonably confident that Castro doesn't miss a meal and probably dines pretty well. DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 05:54 PM

Well, DougR (if you really ARE DougR!:-) )

Difference is you're talking about THEN, and I'm talking about NOW.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 07:48 PM

I'm reasonably confident that Castro doesn't miss a meal and probably dines pretty well.
DougR

Expect Bush has pretty good health insurance, too, while he vetoed it for poor Texas children.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 08:46 PM

Greg F: perhaps I missed it, but I haven't noticed President Clinton or anyone else in the current administration leading the charge to end the boycott. If I did, enlighen me. :>)

I don't know about the health insurance thing in Texas. Busch's record has been so distorted by the press I don't know what to believe. I do know that the Governor of Texas, regardless of which party is in the governor's seat, has little power. I'd be inclined, without knowing more, that it was the Texas legislature one should point the finger at when legislation we are interested in fails to be passed. As I say, though, I'm not familiar with what you are talking about, GUEST, The Yank, so Im shooting from the hip (so to speak). And yes, I am the real DougR. I'm sure Kendall can attest to it. Got to recharge my Cookie to get my name back. DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 09:53 PM

The business of America is business. Cal Coolidge. (Republican)

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:52 PM

So? Good old Cal Coolidge certainly had a right to an opinon, like anybody else, yes? Geeze, what is wrong with business? If it were not for business, there would be an awfully large number of unemployed folks? Or perhaps folks shouldn't be employed! Perhaps it is the role of government to take care of everybody from cradle to grave! I don't think so. DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 11:21 PM

Nothing wrong with business, when you have one, mind it & don't mind everyone elses. What was it that Tom Swift said about our own gardens. 90 mph, we don't travel very fast or very far. Barry

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: InOBU
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:44 AM

Doug!
If it were not for buisiness there would be a lot of people unemployed!!!???? Right you are, but it is not just buisness, it is HOW YOU CONDUCT your buisiness. For example, the buiness practices of the US has resulted in a lot of work or Korean underpaid steal workers, and if you think that is a really good thing, ask around in Pensulvania. Or, take a look at the scars on my feet, where korean steal clamps frailed while I was making drums, and sent clamps through my feet. Instead of the bright hard steal I was used to in American made clamps, the failed Korean clams were dull grey inside and full of tiny airholes. Woke me up considerable. I look for the American made as well as the Union lable, and unfortuanlately that often means buying second hand tools these days. Now, I don't want you to think I am an isolationist, but our brother Brendy can tell you how hard it is to organise a Union in a land whose work force has work because they are cheeper than a unionised workforce. When they get organised, the US corp gets moving, to where it is fast and cheep and poorly made. I'd trade a bit more expence then blood seeping up through my shoes anyday. On a funny note, I got launched head over heals into a corner closet, the door closed, and my wife, hearing the comotion came running... it took her quite a while to find me and let me out of the closit. If it didn't hurt so much, I'd have laughed. I guess I was paying the price for the crime of bringing more Bodhrans into the world.
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:06 AM

What Cal inplied, and what I infered is, that business is the ONLY business of America. Of course business creates work, Government doesn't, but, what pisses me off is all these businesses (thanks to Reaganomics) are going to Mexico to get their products made for a fraction of the cost they would pay here. Now, if the price of that mower with the Briggs & Stratton engine was to drop and reflect the drop in the cost of producing that mower, fine. But guess what? the price did not decline..it went up! Who benefits? the stock holders and owners of such businesses. All they care about is their bottom line, to hell with the working man. No country can survive for long without a manufacturing base, and, we are sending our foundation to Mexico with the help of our elected leaders. It's sad that so many of us cant see what is happening. My best friend just bought a new Hyundai because it was cheaper than a Ford, but he will cry like a baby about feeding the unemployed. And, whats worse is HE IS A DEMOCRAT!! That should warm the cockles of your republican heart!!

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 09:56 AM

A society is essentially a very large extended family, and its leaders are akin to parents of that family, with the responsibilities commensurate to parenthood. A parent who stuffs one child so full of goodies that he is bursting, while leaving 3 other children starving is not a good parent. A parent who clothes 2 siblings in fine silks while leaving 10 others in rags is not a good parent. The whole human race in fact is a very large extended family, and the analogy applies overall, but we have no responsible leadership at present on this planet. What we see is a situation where a very small part of humanity (the middle and upper classes in the developed world) is consuming the lion's share of the world's resources in a truly criminal (if largely unaware) fashion, while many other people live lives of poverty under ruthless dictatorships, while huge capitalist corporations use those poor people as slave labour and the traditional job base of the North American middle class is steadily eroded away. The corporations will not pay you a decent wage to make a part when they can get some desperate Mexican to do it for a few pennies. Thus it is in the interest of the large capitalist players to maintain gross social inequities on this planet, as it greatly increases their profits. Likewise, it is in the interest of Communist dictators to maintain their gross forms of injustice for slightly different, but really quite similar reasons...the capitalist is greedy for money and power...the Communist is greedy for the same, but dresses it up in a different set of rhetoric. It is highly misleading for either capitalists or communists to claim a monopoly on virtue...both systems are filled with iniquity and hypocrisy. The best system we can presently conceive of is one that allows both socialism and capitalism to flourish, while securing the basic rights of people EVERYWHERE (not just in one class or in one country), and on an essentially egalitarian basis, with the opportunity for further advancement from that basic egalitarian level for anyone who shows the initiative to advance himself. In other words, we need an international Bill of Rights. Its tenets: 1. the right to a free education (including university level...you have to do the work and get the marks required to receive the benefit) 2. Freedom from poverty...EVERYONE, regardless of origin is guaranteed a certain basic level of material existence, sufficient to live a normal decent life with enough food, shelter, etc. (and you can advance well beyond that through your own efforts and application) 3. Freedom from violence and fear (by individuals or by governments) 4. Freedom of speech and of conscience 5. Freedom of religion (or not religion) 6. Freedom of sexual orientation 7. Equality of race, creed, gender, religion, and lifestyle choice in whatever way 8. Freedom to partake of the "drug" of your choice, but NOT to market it to others, and NOT to commit antisocial acts with or without its influence 9. THE RIGHT TO A JOB...EVERYONE IS GUARANTEED EMPLOYMENT if he wants it, and if he shows up on time and does the work adequately...if not, he loses said job and reverts back to the most basic form of social protection, nothing more than that (obviously, those with jobs would be in a position to greatly improve their lives and this would be a strong incentive) 10. EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK IN EVERY PART OF THIS PLANET!!! So, an assembly line worker in China or Korea or Mexico would earn the same in REAL money as a similar worker in Pennsylvania. This would end the exploitation of 3rd World people by vicious governments and multinational corporations, and it would restore the traditional job base of middle class people in North America at the same time. 11. Freedom to travel (if the 3rd world was not impoverished, this would present no further problems) 12. Freedom of assembly

I think that about covers it. Does anyone have something to add?

Now, this presupposes a genuinely united and organized world society...in other words, a mature family on this planet. It also implies a world monetary system, a world justice system, and a form of world government. This would in no way threaten the uniqueness of cultures, but in fact could secure their protection. It also implies a world military and policing structure (which, by the way, would probably need about 1 percent as many weapons as are presently being hoarded by the desperados we call nation-states these days.

Will it happen? Yes, eventually, unless we obliterate ourselves in a nuclear war or some such human folly. The whole tendency of human development throughout recorded history has been toward larger and larger cooperative groupings, from family unit to tribe to tribal confederacies to city states to nation states, which is where we are now. The era of the aggressively expanding nation state reached its logical end with the exploding of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We now must build a world society.

You may object that in a system such as I am proposing some people would not work or contribute, but just live off the fat of the land. Yes, some would do that. Fine. Some are doing that right now, in case you didn't notice, and some always will find a way to do that.

What we would gain from such a system is...an end to poverty and social desperation...an end to the drug trade...an end to almost all crime (because crime is born out of inequity and social desperation)...an end to the gross inequalities that abound on this planet...and an end to war.

The enormous gains in overall prosperity that would accrue from this would pay for a few lazy people 50 times over.

A healthy society allows both socialism and capitalism to flourish side by side. Socialism secures those areas where capitalism either cannot or WILL NOT do the job (because there's no profit in it). Capitalism provides a fertile field for individual initiative and creativity to flourish in a unique way...but it must be regulated with care so as not to commit abuses against humanity or nature in its search for profit.

Some areas which usually require a measure of socialism...education systems, police forces, public utilities, mass transportation systems, armed forces, government institutions, communications systems, public medical care systems, courts and justice systems...these are areas where not money, but moral conscience must call the shots.

Capitalism can take care of everything else pretty well, as it presently does...and can offer some interesting input into some of the above areas as well, depending.

I'm not saying it's easy. Nothing valuable is achieved easily. But we can do, we must do it, and we will when this phony war between the left and the right finally ends on this planet.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 09:58 AM

US (pum pumm pum pum pum pum...) and THEM (pum pumm pum pum pum pum...) And after all, we're only Ordinary men...

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 05:58 PM

That's a tall order, Little Hawk. You've obviously given a lot of thought to the subject. I find little to disagree with, but what you describe, I believe, is called utopia and I doubt that will be achieved. Certainly not in my lifetime. DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:20 PM

Just to get this straight DougR, if the sanctions against Cuba had some chance of working, that would make them OK, right? Wrong.

Nice one Little Hawk. I'd sign up to most of that, in an ideal world, except maybe freedom to travel. I'm not totally innocent in this, but if we all start travelling as freely as better off Yanks do already, that's going to warm up the world so fast we'll be praying for a nuclear winter. So freedom to travel is like parental choice for schools - a recipe for more winners, more losers.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:38 PM

Fionn: if it got rid of Castro, you bet! Iff Little Hawk is correct in his reportage, however, it doesn't appear the sanctions are depriving Cuba very much. According to his post, everything is hunky dory in Cuba. I don't believe, however, that I advocated continuing the anctions anyway. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 09:16 PM

There have always been some humourous aspects to the embargo as well though. I've never smoked a cigar in my life and wouldn't know a good one from a bad one, but an acquaintance of mine is a serious afficianado. He manages several bands and travels regularly to the States, where he "does" meetings with industry heavies. He's been supplying them with Cuban cigars for years now. I asked him once if any of his business contacts ever felt "unpatriotic" for puffing away on the illegal stogies. He just laughed and said "rich guys smoke Cuban! End of story". He said that the big "inside" joke was that Bill Clinton was more afraid of the "common people" finding out where that famous cigar "had come from", than "where it had been"!

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 10:01 PM

That's a great story, Rick. DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 10:10 PM

I hear KISS is releasing an acoustic album of broadside ballads.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 12:21 AM

Hi Folks, hello to Doug R., here are some interesting facts about Cuba, garnered on my recent trip. The Cubans are divided in their opinions on their government. The older people, who remember what it was like under Batista, deeply value what the revolution has given them...land, jobs, equality, education, medical care, and national sovereignty (under Batista Cuba was officially sovereign, but ACTUALLY just a branch plant for the American Mafia, US corporations, and the US military.). The younger people, who don't remember the days of Batista, are divided. Some are proud of Cuban sovereignty. I asked one young woman what she liked most about Cuba, and she said "I like it that we are free." Others, however, are upset over the lack of freedom of speech (you are not allowed to publicly criticize the government or publish an article doing so). Privately, you can say what you want, and they do. Many people are perturbed over corruption in the government...the fact that the top leaders live a lifestyle that is considerably more luxurious than the common people. In so doing, they are failing the ideals of their own revolution. This is tempered somewhat by the fact that their public behaviour is far less astentatious in this respect than the leadership in other Latin American countries. The young Cubans are mostly unaware how good they've got it compared to conditions in Santo Domingo, Mexico, Guatemala, etc. I saw no homeless in Cuba, no beggars in the streets, no shantytowns. And I was not being sheperded around by government people during my stay. I also saw fewer cops than I do in Canada, which was quite surprising, and I saw no traffic accidents and not one traffic cop, which was astonishing. Here's another serious Cuban problem, however. Since the peso was allowed to float against the American dollar, it has lost value tremendously. As a result, old people's pensions (which used to be entirely adequate) are utterly inadequate now, and many old people are starving to death in their houses if they don't have younger relatives to help them out. This has led to a high suicide rate among seniors. The United Church is trying to help these old people as best it can. Cuban society is suffering now from a serious lack of money and manufactured goods, and this has stimulated a lively black market. The government looks the other way as long as the black market doesn't venture into restricted areas, like selling illegal drugs or Cuban cigars or a few other items. They realize it helps the economy, so they turn a blind eye for the most part. Everyone wants US dollars...the peso is not worth much anymore. It is true that Castro really hates the USA, and if you study the last 100 years of Cuban history you will soon see why he would...but it's a problem. He hates the US and the US government hates him. I am afraid that until Castro dies or retires this situation may not resolve itself...but my impression is that Castro would like to resolve it now, he just can't figure out how to. It's really a shame. The Cubans are a hugely likable population, full of national pride, and they do not deserve to be treated as an international pariah. I hope that some solution will be found soon. Like Americans, Cubans love their country deeply and want to improve it in any way they can. If you knew them, you would like them.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: thosp
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 12:42 AM

Little Hawk -- i can't believe you! --- how can you possibly condone anyone who would throw the mafia out of the country - try to put an end to prostitution -- build schools and hospitals -- and let Peons yes Peons get free medical care and an education -- it's positivly unCapitalistic ---- are you in your RIGHT mind? of course not --- you should seek help -- you could be contagious! ---- can you IMAGINE if that happened here ---- why it would put an end to our GOD given right to make a buck ---- you really should recant -- there are those who still believe in burning at the stake and crusifixtion and those types of things ---

peace (Y) thosp
ps i tell you this for your own good!

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 12:58 AM

I like your sense of sarcasm, thosp. Viva la revolucion!

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 05:33 AM

DougR, Just like Chile was better off without Allende I suppose. But how is Castro worse than the various savage dictatorships that your government has installed/propped up/supported and so loved to do business with over the years?

Have you ever been to Cuba? I ask because everyone I know who has been, has come away deeply convinced that the sanctions are wrong-headed American interference, and that much of what is bad about the regime is a direct consequence of those sanctions.

I find it hard on the evidence of this thread to believe that folk and blues are your tunes.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Lena
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 06:15 AM

Little Hawk,where are the boundaries of a world society?!Because small, village-like societies used to be so good.Little people is likely to be governed better and look after theirselves.They have more space to complain and be heard.It's far more creative.You Canadians might have an idea of the comfort of a reasonably small population/society.A bigger-scale society suffers of all the colossus-like complications.The first:it's slow to change.USA are an example of a huge scale society.How long has it been dealing with the same problems?!We tend to expand in bigger societies for safety.To avoid wars or petty battles on borders.To work corporately for our own individual economical advantage.It just means:many against one. A huge society is suffocating.People committing suicide in public,doing crazy things to go on television,are people soaked between people.People who grow up aware on billions of people like them,who don't know what to do to come up.There is no normal way to come up normally in a large society.This is true for Communism as well,who flattens every possible difference among individuals(Glad that my Red Commie old people are not reading this). Oh,and finally,what's freedom of thought nowdays?!You have that opinion because you come from that information.But who rules the media?!Who decides?!Sorry,we're just higly impressionable audience with no consequence outside the designed ones.And we don't design them ourselves,since in a large scale society the percentage of high seats is inversely proportional to the number of people.

If there was an impartial,superior parliament whatching over countries,how far could it go?!What can a philippine senator discern about rural problems in Norwee?!How effective could it be?! Do you think that the world rushing to "help" two races picking at each other in a small region of Yugoslavia,last year,for the sake of caring(so they said),was any good?! Then go and see what's left.The world caring about Albanians left thousands of serbs die this winter.Looks like they had to be punished.Big ones decide for little ones.And since we're not the same society all over the world,we have different values and different sense of justice and unjustice,how far can we interfere with each oter?!

And you made me wanna go to Cuba...

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 06:43 AM

I notice a trend here, thouse of us who have interactions with cuba, or those who have been, are not so sure Castro is the monster waiting to eat Ellio Gonzallas for lunch. Those who are the strongest voices against Cuba, haven't been.
La lucha continua - Little Hawk for President or Prime Minister, or both...
Spaw! Kiss???????????!!!!!!??????
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 08:26 AM

Es verdad, Larry-

and 90% of the rabid Florida exile community that U.S. politicians suck up to have never been to Cuba, either! And if folks think Batista was bad, check the situation under Machado before him!

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 11:28 AM

Buenos dias Yank!
Not to emagine emagine life in a Cuba run by the friends of Orlando Bosh?!
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 11:46 AM

Well, this is very interesting. Having been born in 1967 I missed a lot of the Cuba-related crises, and I will be the first to admit that my knowledge of American history stops in 1917 with the death of Buffalo Bill Cody. Anyway, as a relatively young person in the US today, not having been exposed to much anti-Cuban propaganda, I have often wondered myself why sanctions continue. Cuba very small, US very large. Cuba is no threat to us without the Soviets and I am not convinced that they ever were.

I do believe, however, that a lot of the things we are told about other countries who are supposedly our foes, are not true. I don't believe that the whole world hates us. If they did, they wouldn't all want to come here, now, would they? There are people in this world whose sole purpose is to stir up trouble, to divide and conquer, and they want us to think everyone hates us, blahblahblah, yaddayaddayadda.

With regard to Elian Gonzalez, was it that hard to believe that a man in Cuba could actually be happy living there? That someone in a communist country could actually be a good and loving parent?

Sanctions don't work, because they rarely affect the bigwigs. They affect the people who don't have anything to do with the conflict at hand, and the muckymucks don't care about them anyway. So I say, let's forget about being enemies with them. It's not serving any purpose.

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 04:38 PM

Fionn: No. I have not been to Cuba. Travel to Cuba by U.S. citizens, the last time I checked, was not encouraged. I will say it one more time: I favor lifting the sanctions! Why shouldn't we have free trade with Cuba, everybody else does! If the Cuban regime is as benvolent as most posting here believe, however, why do so many Cubans but their asses to try to get to the U.S.? It can't solely be because of the sanctions. Why did Elian's mother lose her life and the risk the life of her small son to get to the U.S. from Cuba? She wanted a McDonald's hamburger, maybe? DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 04:51 PM

DougR:
You may note that when Morrison Visa's were offered the majority of the Irish workforce applied for them. People risk their lives to follow the world's resourses into the mouth of the pig, I mean into the United States because of the want we cause in other contries by consuming so much of what the world produces. Add to that, extream poverty caused by the US sanctions, and well - that explaines why Mrs. Gonzalas would try to come here takeing risks sailing 90 miles.
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 06:27 PM

Another thread, another great posting, Larry. *BG*

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 07:05 PM

Geeze, Fionn, you have strange taste :>) And Larry, you I assume, are American? And you refer to your country as "the mouth of the pig?" Wow! DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 07:34 PM

Hi DougR
Dual national... and yes, carry a US passport... How else do you refer to a nation that consumes over 70% of every reasorse the world produces - while screaming about illegal alians, and looking the other way when our goods are produced by children in Asia? If you are comfortable with that, don't refer to this as the mouth of the pig. Fine with me.
Thanks Fionn - Drop me an email and when it is out in a few days or weeks I will drop you our band's demo CD (recorded live, not studio stuff but pleasent...) and we will see if dougR is right about your taste ... in music, and DougR feel free to email me for a CD as well, the politics of the CD are current to the eighteenth century, so I don't think you'll be offended. };-0
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 07:38 PM

Thanks, Larry, I'd be delighted to receive and hear the CD. If your email address is listed at the Mudcat site, I'll eamil you. DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 09:42 PM

By God, this has just been an amazing string...I think I'll save the whole thing and put it in a book. If I can figure out how to do that...I'm still a neophyte on this chat routine and on Mucat in general.

Doug R - there are a variety of reasons why people flee Cuba. I think the strongest one is that the ecomony there is very bad now, compared to the not too recent past...this because of the collapse of the Warsaw Pact combined with a 40-year-old US (and OAS) embargo, and the floating peso against the US dollar situation. People will go where they can get money and what they see as a more abundant lifestyle. The paradox is...and I am not kidding about this...I found people in Cuba who seemed to me to be happier and more open-hearted than we North Americans with all our money and possessions. There are hundreds of thousands of people in South and Central America who also risk all to get across the Mexican border into the USA. They will do anything to escape the poverty which is much worse in Mexico than it is in Cuba. Many have died in the attempt. Many others have become 3rd class citizens in American ghettos and experienced firsthand the dark side of the "American dream". There is also repression of some freedoms in Cuba (as there is throughout Latin America), so there are genuine political refugees of conscience. I will never claim that one side is totally without fault in this matter and the other totally wrong. What I will claim is that there is no justification for an embargo against Cuba, none whatsoever.

Kim C - Correct! Cuba never was any threat to the USA, because the basic intention of the Cubans was to establish their own sovereignty over their own country and economy. Cuba has made efforts to export its revolution...not surprisingly...because they have provided considerably more social justice than other Latin American regimes, and they know it. The one thing Cuba WAS a threat to was the profits of American business and American organized crime (the Mafia).

and Kim C - you are quite right that not everyone hates the USA. The Cubans themselves like Americans (as individuals) in general, and rather admire the USA in various respects, but they will not surrender their sovereignty, not to the USA or to anyone. In other words, they have mixed feelings on the subject.

the Yank - Yes! Machado was a monster. Batista started out as somewhat of a reformer, but became a monster as he abandoned democratic principles and succumbed to greed and megalomania. He personally darn near bankrupted the country by looting its treasury and indirectly caused the deaths of 20,000 civilians in 10 years by execution, torture, and other means. He ought to have been tried in the World Court. Or shot. I am not one for capital punishment, but in his case I would have considered it. On second thought, I say no...just make him pay back what he took and put him to work on a sugar farm for about 10 years, after which he might appreciate the needs of the common people.

Lena - your comments are fascinating, and merit a great deal of thought. I will see what I can do, and reply directly to you, rather than in this string.

Gracias, amigos, much food for thought.

Little Hawk (George Coventry)

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 02:24 AM

Little Hawk: The thread might make a good book, but I'm skeptical about it. Most good book have considerable conflict and there is little in this thread. Mine is the voice in the wilderness. Ninety-nine percent of the posters are in agreement. And on the embargo, I agree also, so where is the conflict.

I do question your statement that Cuba was never a threat to the US. Perhaps you have forgotten or are not aware of the missle crisis in about 1961, or are under the impression that the Russian made missles were being placed in Cuba to shoot down pigeons, but America's President didn't think so. I would certainly agree that Cuba is no longer a threat, however.

I live in Arizona so I am very aware of the people who die on our desert while trying to escape the poverty of Mexico to extablish themselves in the U. S. This illustrates why I tend to get a bit fiesty at times when I see postings by Americans bashing our country. I am aware of so many who would love to come here because it is a country where opportunity exits for a better life. And so many lose their lives trying to get here. These U. S. bashers should give thanks every day, that they, either by accident, or whatever, are priviledged to live here. Just my opinion, of course. DougR

Subject: RE: Help: US and Cuba
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 11:54 AM

I used to have a book -- a great one I thought (from what I remember)-- Sartre On Cuba by Jean Paul Sartre. It was profound and made many of the points that Little Hawk has made. I do wish I still had it...

There was no way to excuse the reality that was Cuba before Castro. It was a profound example of what can and did go terribly wrong when the excesses of capitalism are allowed to run wild. The violent revolution that was Castro was simply necessary in order to clean the basin of the built up scum. But it has taken too long for the pendulum to swing back to a more centrist position. Sadly, the good aspects of socialism and of capitalism are often tossed out with the washwater. Alas, often the baby is drowned and lost too.

Art Thieme